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2020 August

Crotalus concolor

The RM was closed as moved (Crotalus concolor → Yellow rattlesnake) despite my opposition, another expression of uncertainty, and no direct support. It was originally a contested technical move, and the editor who contested it said they were uncertain "which is really the primary topic". Previously, "Yellow rattlesnake" was a disambiguation page (now at "Yellow rattlesnake (disambiguation)"). When expressing opposition to the move, I raised both questions of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, saying "It does not seem clear to me that Crotalus concolor is most commonly known as 'Yellow rattlesnake' or that it is the primary topic for that term." No evidence was provided for support of the move on either of these grounds. I also pointed out the difference between the English Wikipedia concept of "common name" (i.e. the name most commonly used in independent reliable sources written in English) and the as the taxonomy concept of "common name" (i.e. a vernacular name that does not follow scientific Latinized binomial nomenclature). It is important not to conflate the two. Those concerns still stand. One person expressed conditional support "if there is consensus that 'Yellow rattlesnake' is the most common name", but no such consensus was ever established, so this should not be interpreted as support. I do not see how that situation could be interpreted as a consensus to rename the article as proposed. Furthermore, following the discussion, another editor objected to the move, saying that the move failed to use the common name. Any cursory web search easily confirms that this species does not seem to be a proper primary topic for "yellow rattlesnake". —BarrelProof (talk) 21:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I've notified WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles about this discussion. bibliomaniac 1 5 02:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn, As noted on the talk page "yellow rattlesnake" is not a vernacular used for the species. I also second what BarrelProof states regarding WP:COMMONNAME, and its application to the article. The most commonly seen name in reliable sources is Crotalus concolor, not yellow rattlesnake, midget faded rattlesnake or faded rattlesnake. Indeed the presence of at least three vernaculars makes the binomial the correct choice when looking at unambiguous names.--Kev min § 03:21, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural close was Overturn (no consensus): Note that the referred guideline Wikipedia:Naming_conventions (fauna) states Do not use vernacular names when it is not clear to what the name refers (see WP:Article titles § Precision). Given the uncertainty in the discussion that the primary topic for yellow rattlesnake is the crotalus concolor or timber rattlesnake the discussion looks to be no consensus. I have heard the timber rattlesnake referred to as the yellow rattlesnake and from quickly searching I get more hits for timber snake and almost no hits (besides from Wikipedia itself) for the midget faded rattlesnake, though that might be because of my location. It probably makes sense to follow WP:NOTBURO and just open a new RM for crotalus concolor => midget faded rattlesnake or faded rattlesnake. PaleAqua (talk) 03:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- This was my suggestion when the discussion was raised on my talk page. The move was closed based on the move discussion, fauna naming conventions, and the contents of the article (which indicated a common common name). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:12, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion from Talk:JHunterJ

I disagree with your closure of the RM at Talk:Crotalus concolor. I think there was a failure to establish whether "Yellow rattlesnake" is a more commonly used name than "Crotalus concolor". Please see the rationale in my expression of opposition to that move. No one expressed support for that move without first determining whether there is a consensus that "'Yellow rattlesnake' is the most common name", and I therefore see no consensus to move the article. The proposer did not even respond to the comments about that question. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I saw consensus to move it from the scientific name. There's no prejudice against requesting its move to a better English name (midget faded rattlesnake or faded rattlesnake?), but there was no reason presented to leave it at the scientific name. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna): "When there is no common name or no consensus can be reached on the most common name, or if it isn't clear what taxon the common name refers to (as in the sardine example above), use the scientific name." and the yellow rattlesnake does not meet those elements. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there was a reason presented to leave it at the scientific name. Please see my comment about the discussion at Talk:Daboia palaestinae and the difference between what is meant by "common name" on Wikipedia and in scientific literature. In fact there was no support expressed for that move – only a conditional support for moving if another consensus was established first, and such a consensus was not established. In fact, "yellow rattlesnake" is not sufficiently unambiguous and has not been established as the most common name for the species. For example, I just did a web search and an image search for "yellow rattlesnake", and practically none of the results in the first few pages of search results were for Crotalus concolor, except for Wikipedia pages. Please note that there was no direct mention of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna) in the discussion, and the closure is supposed to be a determination of consensus – not an independent decision based on other things that were not discussed. Moreover, it says to use the scientific name when "no consensus can be reached on the most common name", and I do not see any consensus being reached about the most common name. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:04, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. I didn't introduce NC:FAUNA. I'm aware of it, and the final !vote as mentioned in the close introduced the common name argument as used there. The lawyery note above introduces arguments, however, which of course I did not consider in the close, since they weren't in the discussion I closed. But refocusing on encyclopedic improvement: "Crotalus concolor" appears from the discussion to be no better than "Yellow rattlesnake" (or "midget faded rattlesnake" or "faded rattlesnake" , which already redirected to the yellow rattlesnake article, but aren't bolded there and are listed in a secondary way, behind "yellow rattlesnake", which would appear to make it more common that the other common names; this however is a new argument, which is why there's no prejudice against moving it to one of those names if needed), and probably worse, based on the discussion there and my previous familiarity with Wikipedia naming conventions (which is part of my adminship, and not to be forgotten in individual discussions, see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS). And the timber rattlesnake is not know as "yellow rattlesnake" (at least on Wikipedia), so that's no impediment.-- JHunterJ (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for not noticing that WP:NCFAUNA was indeed mentioned during the discussion, although it was a different quote from it that was discussed. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You may notice that someone else has now commented on the page, saying that "yellow rattlesnake" is not a well-known name for this snake. "Crotalus concolor" seems like a very good name for it, since it is well accepted and unambiguous. I plan to open a move review within a day or two. —BarrelProof (talk) 15:56, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You may notice that the article itself leads with the identification of the species as yellow rattlesnake. It seems now that you would like me to consider yet another new argument that wasn't present in the move discussion, while at the same time accusing me of introducing new arguments because I'm aware of Wikipedia naming conventions. Seems like a lot more bureaucracy than simply starting a discussion (there) as to what a good name for the article would be, and then getting it moved there. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a new argument. That argument was raised during the RM discussion, when I said "I tend toward oppose for Crotalus concolor. It does not seem clear to me that Crotalus concolor is most commonly known as "Yellow rattlesnake" or that it is the primary topic for that term. ..." The best idea that I have about what the article name should be is just the name the article already had. My impression is that reverting the name change would be better as an MR than as a second RM since I don't see any real basis for the consensus declaration of closure. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:21, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"It does not seem clear to me" is not a common name or primary topic criterion. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I saw that discussion, going to follow your advice and open a new RM to consider midget faded rattlesnake and suggest that this be procedurally closed. PaleAqua (talk) 20:27, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reverse. I think it is clear there was no consensus for the move. One oppose, one uncertain, and one conditional support, if the common name can be established appropriately, and that support is lacking. It doesn't seem clear if yellow rattlesnake is used widely for any of the three species in the disambiguation page for yellow rattlesnake:

Crotalus adamanteus (Eastern diamondback rattlesnake). Yellow rattlesnake is not used by the IUCN (Eastern Diamond-backed Rattlesnake, Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake) or Reptile Database ( Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake) and isn't given as a common name in the article.
Crotalus horridus (Timber rattlesnake). Yellow rattlesnake is not used by the IUCN (Timber Rattlesnake) or Reptile Database (Timber rattlesnake, cane-brake rattlesnake) and isn't given as a common name in the article.
Crotalus concolor (Yellow rattlesnake). Neither the IUCN or Reptile database identifiers appear in the taxonbar (the species needs a Wikidata id). The IUCN doesn't have an assessment (Crotalus oreganus concolor is mentioned in the Crotalus oreganus assessment) and Reptile Database lists Midget Faded Rattlesnake as the common name (as do the other sources in the article). It's not clear where the yellow rattlesnake name came from.

I expected to see uncertainty about which snake yellow rattlesnake refers to, but it doesn't seem widely used at all. Google for "yellow rattlesnake" -wikipedia only finds it used as a name by the Virginia Herpetological Society, which lists it was the 13th and last alternative vernacular name for the Timber Rattlesnake. The other hits seem to be photos of rattlesnakes that happen to be yellow. So I'd reverse the page move and question the use of yellow rattlesnake as a common name in the article or the need for a disambiguation page. — Jts1882 | talk 07:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. My comment at the original RM was conditional: "if there is consensus that "Yellow rattlesnake" is the most common name". I'm happy to accept, given the comments here, that there is no consensus, without any criticism of the original closer's action. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:02, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This taxon is referred to as the Midget Faded Rattlesnake on Reptile Database [1] and in some scholarly research (eg. [2]). However it would seem this is a leftover from when it was considered conspecific with Crotalus viridis. As such I would suggest that placing it under its binomen would be the best option. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) ^talk 17:47, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Move reviews focus on if the close was correct in regards to WP:RM/CI and not for new arguments. Given that I've opened a new requested move, based on some of the discussion above, this comment might be better at Talk:Yellow rattlesnake#Requested move 20 August 2020. PaleAqua (talk) 19:22, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with procedural close of this - this is getting confusing. Need to keep discussion in the one place. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:09, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Closing this MR without reaching a decision on its merits would cause a problem. Until the MR is closed, we do not have a clear understanding of what the title should be if there is no consensus in the second RM. If the first closure was proper, the default "no consensus" title should be "Yellow rattlesnake", but if the first closure was improper, the default title should be "Crotalus concolor". Moreover, I don't see anyone really supporting the original closure (just as there was no one really supporting the previous RM proposal), so why not close this as overturn? —BarrelProof (talk) 14:05, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:RM/CI#Determining consensus specifically the reference to Wikipedia:Consensus § No consensus. When RM's close as no consensus the result is not that the title shouldn't be moved but that it should be at the stablest title, often this is the same thing but not always. PaleAqua (talk) 16:46, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That satisfies my concern. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

History of the Jews in the Czech Republic (closed)

Category:North Macedonian politicians by party and Category:North Macedonian politicians

It was brought to my attention that two CFDs that I closed recently with a strong consensus to rename may not have considered conventions regarding the naming of Macedonia-related subjects (see WP:NCMAC) in the discussion. I think that this is worth taking a look at, so I'm listing my own closes in move review. Pinging the participants of that CFD: HapHaxion, Oculi, Marcocapelle, Carlossuarez46, Laurel Lodged, and Peterkingiron. bibliomaniac 1 5 20:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn. There's a naming convention in place which clearly establishes 'Macedonian' as the term for nationality. The policy was based on a wide consensus established by a RfC and nobody in the discussion seems to be aware of it. Local consensus does not override consensus of the wider community. Perhaps even more importantly, local or any kind of consensus can not ignore reliable sources, the vast majority of which favor 'Macedonian'. There's an ongoing research on this topic. I am not aware of any English language dictionary proposing 'North Macedonian'. The term, while being inaccurate, is also controversial and considered offensive by the nationality in question. --FlavrSavr (talk) 20:40, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is not quite true. Use of Macedonian is cited in WP:NCMAC § Nationality for for the routine description of people's nationality in the lead sentences of biographical articles, to be contrasted with article names and categories where this use id discouraged. The same Nationality paragraph also cites the double formula used in the Prespa agreement and official documents ("Macedonian/citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia") and cites an example which uses North Macedonian: XYZ possesses both Australian and North Macedonian citizenship. NCMAC does therefore not clearly establish adjectival use for nationality, or at least not the way you write it. Place Clichy (talk) 10:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relist, agree that WP:NCMAC should be part of the discussion, but at the same time WP:NCMAC does not offer a final solution for adjectives. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Marcocapelle: WP:NCMAC#Adjectival_form_of_North_Macedonia says
  Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred.
  That seems pretty clear to me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

'of North Macedonia' or 'in North Macedonia' is exactly what I would support instead. We do not disagree. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The specific policy part that applies here is nationality:

The nationality of citizens of North Macedonia should still be referred to as "Macedonian."

. The policy part you're quoting is about the adjectival form of the country. The people, the citizens of that country are called "Macedonian" by the policy and by the vast majority of reliable sources. This of course goes for article titles, categories etc. --FlavrSavr (talk) 10:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn The CFD decision is perverse and disruptive. The category tree is Category:Macedonian people, and this pair seems to be the only exception to the "Macedonian fooers" convention of its subcats.

The closer erred by allowing a WP:LOCALCON to override a naming convention, when the localcon offered no reason to make these categories an exception to that convention. This failure to uphold the naming convention would be an an error in any CFD close, but it is a particularly serious failure when the convention is not just documented, but has been hammered out in lengthy discussions under an ARBCOM-supervised process.

I am personally sympathetic to the idea that the demonym "Macedonian" is inadequate in many categories, and am inclined prefer a less ambiguous formulation that includes "North Macedonia(n)". However, these issues are far from straightforward, and I am not well-versed in Macedonian topics ... and the parallels with Ireland make me shudder. "Northern Irish fooers" and "Republic of Ireland fooers" may appear obvious to some people, but they would be almost unanimously opposed by people from Ireland.

Extensive discussions have not shown any consensus to create these inconsistencies, and the worst possible outcome is to create inconsistencies where every single category is fought over individually.

Those who believe that there should be some deviations from the demonym "Macedonian" should open an RFC at WP:NCMAC to define when these apply, so that this can be resolved with a broad consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Also want to notify about the discussions on Macedonian activists and Macedonian academics. I've put them on relist with links to this move review. bibliomaniac 1 5 05:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and do not relist. Agree entirely with BHG's view that individual cfds to rename twigs of consistently named trees is disruptive (renames which conflict with WP:C2C, a speedy criterion). Arguments that such individual categories are not 'nationality' would be resolved by re-parenting the category, not renaming it in incorrect parents. Oculi (talk) 09:46, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Moreover Category:North Macedonia people, created recently by Marcocapelle, seems to be contrary to WP:NCMAC. There are areas best avoided, Irish, Australian and anything to do with Birmingham or opera springing to mind. Portals. Oculi (talk) 09:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Based on the local consensus and what was brought up the initial close was reasonable, but given WP:NCMAC it was clearly a local consensus and should be overturned. PaleAqua (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do not overturn and apply WP:NCMAC instead: move to Category:Politicians of North Macedonia and Category:Politicians of North Macedonia by party. WP:NCMAC § Adjectival form of North Macedonia states explicitely that Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred. The use of Macedonian as a demonym for the country (rather than just for the culture/language of the Macedonian ethnic group) cannot be seen as neutral as it follows the fringe nationalist POV in North Macedonia that rejects the North Macedonia name altogether. North Macedonian is disliked for the very same reasons. Any use of adjectives being controversial in the present state, the solution stated in WP:NCMAC for article names and categories is the safest, if not the only, solution. Place Clichy (talk) 10:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of prominent operas (closed)

@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 It was brought to my attention that two CFDs that I closed recently with a strong consensus to rename may not have considered conventions regarding the naming of Macedonia-related subjects (see [[WP:NCMAC]]) in the discussion. I think that this is worth taking a look at, so I'm listing my own closes in move review. Pinging the participants of that CFD: {{u|HapHaxion}}, {{u|Oculi}}, {{u|Marcocapelle}}, {{u|Carlossuarez46}}, {{u|Laurel Lodged}}, and {{u|Peterkingiron}}.  '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color: black;">bibliomaniac</span>]][[User talk:Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color: red;">1</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color: blue;">5</span>]]''''' 20:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 *'''Overturn.''' There's a [[WP:NCMAC|naming convention]] in place which clearly establishes 'Macedonian' as the term for nationality. The policy was based on a wide consensus established by a RfC and nobody in the discussion seems to be aware of it. [[Wikipedia:Local consensus|Local consensus]] does not override consensus of the wider community. Perhaps even more importantly, local or any kind of consensus can not ignore [[reliable sources]], the vast majority of which favor 'Macedonian'. There's an [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Macedonia)/Sources#Adjective_used_for_people|ongoing research]] on this topic. I am not aware of any English language dictionary proposing 'North Macedonian'. The term, while being inaccurate, is also controversial and considered offensive by the nationality in question. --[[User:FlavrSavr|FlavrSavr]] ([[User talk:FlavrSavr|talk]]) 20:40, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
+*: This is not quite true. Use of ''Macedonian'' is cited in {{section link|WP:NCMAC|Nationality}} for {{tq|for the routine description of people's nationality in the lead sentences of biographical articles}}, to be contrasted with article names and categories where this use id discouraged. The same ''Nationality'' paragraph also cites the double formula used in the Prespa agreement and official documents ({{tq|"Macedonian/citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia"}}) and cites an example which uses ''North Macedonian'': {{tq|XYZ possesses both [[Australia|Australian]] and [[North Macedonia]]n citizenship}}. NCMAC does therefore not clearly establish adjectival use for nationality, or at least not the way you write it. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 10:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * '''Relist''', agree that [[WP:NCMAC]] should be part of the discussion, but at the same time [[WP:NCMAC]] does not offer a final solution for adjectives. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 21:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 **@[[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]]: [[WP:NCMAC#Adjectival_form_of_North_Macedonia]] says {{talkquote|Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred.}}  That seems pretty clear to me. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 00:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 78: / Line 79: @@
 ** Moreover [[:Category:North Macedonia people]], created recently by Marcocapelle, seems to be contrary to [[WP:NCMAC]]. There are areas best avoided, Irish, Australian and anything to do with Birmingham or opera springing to mind. Portals.  [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 09:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 *'''Overturn''' Based on the local consensus and what was brought up the initial close was reasonable, but given [[WP:NCMAC]] it was clearly a local consensus and should be overturned. [[User:PaleAqua|<span style="color:#e01582">PaleAqua</span>]] ([[User talk:PaleAqua|talk]]) 12:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
+*'''Do not overturn''' and apply [[WP:NCMAC]] instead: '''move to [[:Category:Politicians of North Macedonia]] and [[:Category:Politicians of North Macedonia by party]]'''. {{section link|WP:NCMAC|Adjectival form of North Macedonia}} states explicitely that {{tq|Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred.}} The use of ''Macedonian'' as a demonym for the country (rather than just for the culture/language of the Macedonian ethnic group) cannot be seen as neutral as it follows the fringe nationalist POV in North Macedonia that rejects the North Macedonia name altogether. ''North Macedonian'' is disliked for the very same reasons. Any use of adjectives being controversial in the present state, the solution stated in [[WP:NCMAC]] for article names and categories is the safest, if not the only, solution. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 10:26, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 ====List of prominent operas (closed)====