Talk:Washington University in St. Louis

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Archived Talk Page 1 April 2005-July 2006 Archived Talk Page 2 July 2006-December 2006

Centers and Institutes

I made a few edits today, addding the heading "Centers and Institutes," as it would be beneficial to have a comprehensive listing of WUSTL academic organizations. Additionally, I added some information and liknks to a few centers/institutes, but the list is currently very small. Contributions would be appreciated, as well as any comments suggestions. This unsigned comment was added by Lmbstl (talk • contribs) .

Plenty of Universities have Centers and institutes, but why are the ones here so significant? why has so much space been devoted to them? I think we should dramatically revamp and perhaps even eliminate this section. But I want to hear other opinions.Astuishin 07:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Because of space concerns, Centers and Institutes have been moved to their own page: Centers_and_Institutes_of_Washington_University_in_St._Louis. Please feel free to expand the page-- these organizations can be very influentual and deserve mention.Lmbstl 07:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll research the influence of these organizations and add anything I can find.Astuishin 08:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Diwali

I removed Diwali because it just does not seem to fit the parameters for a university tradition. Its kind of like saying that Washington University annual Christmas party is a tradition. Simply put Diwali is already a tradition for over 800 million people, how is the Washington U. one unique amongst other ones? Because of the attendance records? Here's the wikipedia definition:

Diwali, also called Deepavali, is a major Hindu festival that is very significant in Hinduism, Sikhism and Jainism.

This is my reasoning but I would like to here other opinions. Thank You Astuishin 15:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Changed "Campus" to "Campuses"

Information on the Danforth campus is pretty thorough, although a lot of information is missing about the Med Campus, Tyson Research Center, and West Campus. I will work to flesh it out and would appreciate any suggestions and contributions. This unsigned comment was added by Lmbstl (talk • contribs) .

Created "Libraries and Museums" section

Created "Libraries and Museums" heading along with a listing of the 14 WUSTL libraries. Any suggestions and/or refinements woiuld be appreciated. This unsigned comment was added by Lmbstl (talk • contribs) .

created Washington University Library System page --Lmbstl 05:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I combine this and some of the other sections to try and make them more condensed Bancham 11:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It would be very nice if people could actually add content instead of deleting it. I don't know why Bancham deleted references, further reading, and external links. I am not going to reverse any edits until they are discussed here. However, I believe that the deleted material was useful and should be reverted. Additionally, I will make suggestions for expansion of the WUSTL page, since the page needs content more than it needs rearranging. --Lmbstl 15:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay i'm sorry if I offended Lmbstl, but if you compare the WUSTL page with other schools you'd quickly find that the external links section is getting out of hand, I mean you don't have to provide a link to every single website for the school. and of course intend to add more content, if one examine the talk page and the article history they will find that I have been contributing to this page for quite a while. Bancham 22:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not offended at all; just perplexed. I am not insisting that external links be present. However, I don't know why you deleted references and further reading suggestions. Anyway, I look forward to content being added to the WUSTL page. If we are going to use other institutions of equivilent reputation as a guide, which you have suggested, the WUSTL series is sorely lacking. We can rearrange the articles all we want, but it won't disguise the fact that they are quite thin in spots. Lmbstl 06:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I still think the st. louis colleges nav box is to large, and I also agree that the futher reading section needs to be restored. As for the external links I think they were I little bit much though some of the links could be restored. Astuishin 09:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't yet seen any objections to a partial restoration . . . Lmbstl 04:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

WUSTL logos and images

I left a request on CLyerla's talk page for some specific guidelines so we can discuss these edits.

I did find this information:

"The official logotype must be reproduced exactly as supplied by LRG or the University. It must not be separated into its various sections,such as use of the heraldic device (shield,crest) by itself.The official logotype is a federally registered trademark."

from: http://productgraphics.wustl.edu/pdf-forms/guidelines.pdf

It can be argued that photos from the WUSTL campus fall under fair use-- however, I think we should respect the WUSTL guidelines that the shield not be used on its own; to do so violates the logotype design.

Thoughts?

I hope that we can work together to agree on guidelines/permission for image use instead of getting into a tug-of-war that benefits no one. Lmbstl 04:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

User Lmbstl - Thank you for your post - I was not able to reply until this morning. The information you located on the Product Graphics Web site is correct. The University logo is a trademarked symbol and as such cannot be altered or revised. Use of the shield alone, without the accompanying school name, is strictly prohibited. In addition, the version of the shield currently being used alone is incorrect - the shield does not contain the latin verse "Per Veritatem Vis" except when used within the University Seal (also a protected trademarked symbol). The University appreciates its accurate inclusion in Wikipedia, but must protect its identifying marks both within the University and in the public arena. Our Director of Product Licensing is in the process of contacting Wikipedia management to request the removal of the shield artwork, and hopes to achieve the same satisfactory response as was received with the use of the University Seal. - CLyerla

I have a couple of problems with this document, CLyerla. First I'm wondering how far this document extends, if for instance one took a picture of the campus that did not come from the office of the DPL could it be removed (Like the seal embossed over Brookings hall, or pictures of the seal at commencement). Does this policy extend to any text rewritten about the university, for instance criticism about the admissions policy, or freedom of speech concerns on campus?(understand that in the past you removed some of this information) Could a member of the board of trustees sanitation the use of the seal. Do you believe Washington University has veto power over any content in the encyclopedia that concerns it? (because the universities name is a tm we might not be able to use it) Does this policy count under old seals or university artwork whose copyright as long since passed? Would the current logo be removed if the university did grant the encyclopedia the permission to use it? Is it trademarked?

The shield happens to be carbon copy of an old alumni information packet and was not altered in any means, how is this handled? What if the TM has expired on it?

Until you have answered these question I will not revert your edits however I will remove all logos concerning the university until this matter is cleared. I am also glad of the fact, CLyerla, that you have finally realized this encyclopedia is not an extension brochure for your university. Thank you Astuishin 16:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I've got no problems I just want if you're really a member of the university administration, CLyerla can you please identify yourself clearly to the community on this talk page that you are a member of the university staff? Thanks Bancham 16:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The University has no issue with use of its logo in this manner as an identifying mark - however, the logo must be used correctly at all times or is deemed a misrepresentation of the University and a misuse of its trademarked identity. The University Seal, whether in picture form or as digital artwork, is not the identifying symbol of the University. Similarly, older versions of the logo do not represent the University anymore than a homemade or newly created original logo would. The University does not object to the absence of artwork but any artwork that is used must be accurate and correct. -CLyerla

I would like to repeat my question CLyerla can you please identify yourself clearly to the community on this talk page that you are a member of the university staff? I can of think this a bad joke. Bancham 16:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

My apologies Bancham - I am the University Web Editor. - CLyerla

Thanks Bancham 16:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, still I have some problems. You are say that pictures of the seal cannot be used because they are not identifying, on what legal grounds can the university block that inclusion on a non-profit web base encyclopedia? And also how does this apply if the copyright has expired? Thank you Astuishin 17:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The University Seal in any form is not the identifying symbol of the University. It is artwork created for special use by the Board of Trustees only, and Wikipedia's legal counsel Brad Patrick confirmed the University's position on that matter in August 2006. - CLyerla

But what is the legal argument behind that philosophy? I understand the internal university policy, but is there a law or section in the US copyright law that you can point to back up your claims, because so far I do not see any laws that supersede the right to take a picture and use it for non commercial purposes or the right to use a photo or object whose copyrights have expired and are in public domain. Thank you. Astuishin 17:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I can only suggest you discuss it with Mr. Patrick, who handled the matter with the University's legal counsel office. I do not know the extent of their conversation. - CLyerla

I would actually like to get in touch with University's legal office, because I've already emailed Dan and he saw no legal problems with the posting of the shield. Is there anyway you could direct me to them? Preferably by email, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank You Astuishin 17:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Also I have another question, earlier you stated any artwork used must be accurate and correct, what does this mean? No dated pictures or designs of the University? Thank You Astuishin 17:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Astuishin if this doesn't clear it up I don't no what will, here is the entire guideline for the use of the seal that I found on the Wash. U. website, I would direct you to look closely at question number 14:

1. Why does the University have a trademark licensing program?

Creating and maintaining positive relationships with suppliers benefits the University community in two important ways. First, it allows the University to do everything possible to make sure that all promotional merchandise is purchased from companies who treat their employees fairly. Second, it allows the University to protect and promote its name(s) and symbols in a positive manner. Having a formal licensing relationship with suppliers of imprinted merchandise helps the campus community address these two important areas.

2. Does the licensing program support fair labor practices?

Washington University in St. Louis is affiliated with the Fair Labor Association (http://www.fairlabor.org) and the Worker Rights Consortium (http://www.workersrights.org/). When you use licensed manufacturers, you are helping to encourage fair treatment of workers nationally and internationally.

3. Who needs to obtain a license? Any individual (including students) or organization (including University departments and student groups) wishing to use the University’s name, marks, or logos on apparel or novelty items should hire a company licensed to reproduce the University's marks. Any supplier wishing to provide imprinted merchandise to any University client should obtain a license to reproduce University marks. This includes all uses of the University’s names and symbols on products, including those for promotions and advertising.

4. How does a supplier become licensed? 'To become licensed, a supplier must submit an application to Licensing Resource Group (LRG). LRG serves as the University’s agent for the administration of license agreements. To obtain an application packet or learn more about licensing, please contact LRG: 426 Century Lane, Suite 110, Holland, Michigan 49423, Telephone: 616-395-0676, http://www.lrgusa.com.

5. Whom can I contact at the University with specific questions or to obtain forms?

Director of Product Licensing, Office of Public Affairs, Campus Box 1177, One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130-4899. Phone: 314-935-8154. Fax: 314-935-8358. click here to send e-message

Waiver of Royalty or Art Approval Request forms are available as pdf files or in hard copy.

6. How do I obtain approval for artwork?

Because University graphics and guidelines have recently been updated, it is important to find out if your artwork is current. To obtain feedback on and approval for artwork, please send the proposed graphic (via email, fax, or hard copy delivery) to the director of product licensing (Director of Product Licensing). Graphic artwork should be accompanied by a description of the product and of the colors, placement, and size of the logo(s) to be used.

Your artwork may be submitted by the licensed supplier that you choose. Graphic artwork submitted by licensed suppliers should be accompanied by an artwork approval request form.

7. How do I submit artwork for approval?

Fax, mail, or e-mail the request form with the artwork to the Director of Product Licensing.

8. What guidelines are available for use of the University's graphics and name?

See “Graphic Standards for Licensed Products,” available as a pdf file (click here) and in hard copy from the Director of Product Licensing. See also FAQ #10.

In addition, the director of product licensing is available for consultation on a case-by-case basis.

9. What artwork is available online?

First of all, see the Product Graphics page of this Web site, where the artwork pictured in the “Graphic Standards for Licensed Products” is available. In addition, all versions of the official University logotype are available (clink here for the official logotype Web site).

10. When is TM or ® required?

All names and visual representations of Washington University in St. Louis are the exclusive property and trademarks of the University.This includes all word marks, service marks, names, name variants, nicknames, logotypes, logos, insignia, shields, seals, designs, devises, or symbols that refer to Washington University in St. Louis. Also included are any words, phrases, or images that imply association with the University.

'The ® must be used with federally registered marks. The University's federally registered marks are: the versions of the official logotype," Washington University," "WUSTL," official University Seal, the historical, interlocking WU. TM must be used with all other trademarks, including the complete name "Washington University in St. Louis."'

'Please direct any questions regarding use of ® or TM to: Director of Product Licensing

11. What are the University’s PMS colors?

PMS 342 Green PMS 466 Tan (coated)/ 467 Tan (uncoated) PMS 193 Red (coated)/ 186 Red (uncoated) PMS 202 Deep Red (for new bear)

12. What guidelines are available for use of the official University logotype?

See “Guidelines for Logotype Use and Applications,” available as a pdf file (click here) and in hard copy from the Director of Product Licensing. The logotype is a federally registered trademark.

13. Where and how may the University Seal be used?

Use of the Official University Seal (a federally registered trademark) will be limited to authorized University documents (such as diplomas and certificates) and high-end, substantial, formal objects. It cannot be used on clothing, printed materials, or for any other less-than-formal purposes. Note: Each use of the Seal requires special permission of the Office of the Vice Chancellor for Public Affairs.

14. Where and how may the University shield, or crest, be used?

The University shield may be used only as part of the official University Seal or logotype (both are federally registered trademarks). The shield, or crest, may not be used alone.

15. Are there special guidelines for use of athletic symbols?

Special Note: Each use of the athletic symbol requires special permission of the Director of Athletics, which may be obtained through the Director of Product Licensing. The Washington University athletic symbol was redesigned in 2006 to create a new, unified "look" for the Athletics Department. The symbol is designed to be applied to materials that relate directly to or convey messages about the athletics programs at Washington University in St. Louis. The athletics symbol is not designed to be used for endeavors related to the University research or teaching missions; the official logotype of the University (and its guidelines) is to be employed for these purposes.

The athletic symbol may not be modified in any way. Every use of the athletic symbol must be accompanied by the complete, correct University name. Artwork and guidelines for use of the athletic symbol are available through the product licensing office and at productgraphics.wustl.edu.

16. What are the guidelines for use of "WUSTL" and "WU?"

The preferred wordmark of the University is "WUSTL," and the preferred configuration of "WUSTL" is the University Monogram (see the graphics page of this Web site). All configurations of "WUSTL" and “WU” must be accompanied by the complete, correct name “Washington University in St. Louis.” The historical, interlocking WU is a federally registered trademark.

17. What are the guidelines for use of “Wash. U.?”

The configuration “Wash. U.” may be used, but only in combination with the complete, correct name “Washington University in St. Louis.” In addition, periods must be used with the abbreviations, after “Wash.” and after “U.”

Bancham 13:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

WUSTL logos and images +

No I'm sorry Bancham that FAQ does not clear things up, I actually read it several months ago when we where having the previous discussion about the placement of the seal. I assumed that, the policy the FAQ was a explaining was for those wishing to use the university's logo for commercial proposes. In that case there are plenty of obvious legal precedents that the university can use to comply third parties to follow those guidelines. However this encyclopedia as I have stated ad nauseum is not a commercial enterprise it is a non-for profit website with the propose of spreading knowledge to the wider world. And because of that as I have also stated ad nauseum that wikipedia is entitled to use images under the U.S. copyright laws fair use policy. To my knowledge (yes I have read the law in its entirety) the university has no legal right to control what images and pictures are placed on this website, so long as they comply.

I decided against pushing the seal on to this page before, because after reviewing the university's policy I believed it seemed to be rooted in a long held traditional. However in this case I felt the FAQ was simply a guideline for the university's merchandise suppliers.

To be courteous Bancham I did again read over the FAQ, and found nothing new. In regards to question 14 it states quite plainly The University shield may be used only as part of the official University Seal or logotype (both are federally registered trademarks). The shield, or crest, may not be used alone. However Bancham I obtained the shield from an alumni pamphlet produced years before, this policy was introduced, or you were probably even born. This is why have been asking these questions, you must realize that this website its not just about practicality its about principal. We as a community on this talk page must realize that any institution which wants to change things cannot simply use an internal policy, it must use laws. So to answer your post no things are not cleared I want to know the legal reasoning behind removing the shield, and how far reaching it is. Thank You Astuishin 15:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay Astuishin I'll stop changing it but if you want to contact CLyerla, all you have to do is look her up on the Wash U Directory she already identified her self as the University's web editor in the department of public affairs and you can email her at Collen_Lyerla@wustl.edu. I don't think you should wait for a response, the page can't just not have a logo for weeks . Bancham 18:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggested course of action: make this simpler

I don't see why these interactions have to be confrontational or complicated. CLyerla has spent a reasonable amount of time explaining her position, and she is representing WUSTL. It is not her responsibility to explain the legal rationale; I am sure she is just quoting the "rules" as she knows them. Therefore:

1. Which logotype or image is available to use for the WUSTL article on Wikipedia? I am certain that CLyerla can provide us with guidance in this area. Perhaps permission can be granted from WUSTL. Instead of fighting for rights to use an image, let's try to get a concensus first.

2. Who at WUSTL manages logos/images and can grant permission for their use? Someone named Dan was mentioned earlier. Whoever contacted him previously may want to do so again. Once again, let's try to get a concensus.

None of this requires a dramatic showdown with WUSTL legal counsel. --Lmbstl 16:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually you know Lmbstl I'm surprised but after giving it some thought over break, I actually do have some problems with what CLyerla wants, I agree that she's representing Wash U. but still I think there might be a need to clarify Shield use. I went and do some research and found two examples of the shield used stand alone, here at the Wash U model UN site: http://sugroups.wustl.edu/~wumun/index.htm

and here at the Donald danforth research center:

http://www.danforthcenter.org/about/partners.htm.

The the policy that I posted earlier seems to govern a licensing process of some sort, not these organizations and wikipedia. Oh by the way Lmbstl I think you should read the wikipedia fair use policy that we have all been talking about because it will tell you that CLyerla does have cite laws if she objects to an image already approved by wikipedia. She can't barge in veto placement of images and then cite some university policy to back it up, because as we all know Wash U is not affiliated with its wikipedia article, and it must use some type of law to back up what they want. Is that to hard to ask for? Bancham 17:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

My point is, all of this blustering may be a moot point if CLyerla can provide a logotype that falls within everyone's guidelines, legal or implied. If not, then let's refer to the "Dan" gentelman who was mentioned. Why get into a shouting match over fair use and the letter of the law if we can find a mutually agreeable solution? I would think that quoting copyright law could be postponed until we can extablish that the people at WUSTL intend to be extraordinarily difficult. Right now, it appears that there may be an amicable solution. --Lmbstl 18:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Campus buildings

An extensive listing of Danforth Campus Buildings has been added. We may want to consider moving this to a sub-article. Additoinally, the images that have been posted are licensed as fair-use; however, the images can easily be obtained by anyone living in the St. Louis area. Given the already confrontational nature surrounding image use, I kindly ask that the images be replaced by free-use images. --Lmbstl 16:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved the building content to a new subpage: Danforth Campus (Washington University in St. Louis). Still need some help on the image issue, however.--Lmbstl 16:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you write the content on the sub page or did you get it straight from the Wash U website. Bancham 17:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't write anything, I simply moved it. It is very clear on the history page that user:jefwun added the content.--Lmbstl 18:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)