Talk:Second Nagorno-Karabakh War

Disputed neutrality

Because of some Armenian "trusted" authors, page became less neutral. Most of information source is unreliable and unverified site. Some of them don't have any source even. Please don't prefer Armenian sources only, because it is not one-sided war. --Ayxan İsmayılov (talk) 14:17, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

This type of messages are useless for other users since they don't know what specific information or source do you mean. Give specific examples/cases. --ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 14:24, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, currently the article merely reports statements from both sides per WP:ATTRIBUTE. As the article's creator I can say that so far none of them is presented as an undisputable, widely accepted fact. Brandmeister^talk 14:55, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

A woman and a child were killed by Azerbaijani shelling of civilian settlements in Martuni province in Nagorno-Karabakh, the country's human rights advocate Artak Beglaryan said on 27 September. According to him, schools have been shelled, and there is large-scale damage to civilian infrastructure in many settlements. According to Beglaryan, "In Stepanakert alone, there are more than 10 injured, including children and women". You can't find these statements in any neutral verified sites like BBC, Reuters or New York Times etc. Source of this statement is Armenian website. For sure, they will write everything for their revenues. The fact "five members of the same family were killed by Armenian shelling of one village in Azerbaijan." is from verifiable source. Unseen this, we can see that all statements are againist of Azerbaijan. --Ayxan İsmayılov (talk) 16:50, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, we cannot trust many news sources since most of them can be considered to be biased, especially when it mentions "human rights". We should take percautions per Wikipedia's neutrality policy, and punish those who do not adhere to this rule. Ethnic tensions between both peoples belonging to the warring belligerents have no place in this community, and they have no right to voice their opinion, as I believe there will be consistent edit wars over this article.Balkanite (talk) 01:42, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This article is completely neutral

It stated what both the Armenian and Azerbaijani side claimed in terms of casualties and the fact that Azerbaijan started these clashes by bombing and attacking a few villages. Greglawl (talk) 15:52, 27 September 2020 (UTC)Greglawl

Agree Huskermax5 (talk) 18:50, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Neutrality of the article, facts are deleted immediately

Could you, please, explain why my edits to this article are erased? The information is deleted minutes after it’s added.

I quote international sources and official government reports - UN declarations, US government website, international news outlets. One of my sources is The 2018 War Report prepared by the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights from RULAC. I find it as a reputable source given this definition and would like to know on which grounds the direct quotes of the report that I have used to add these 2 sentences to Background section of the Wikipedia article are deleted.

my text is below:

The war resulted in Armenian occupation of the Nagorno-Karabakh region, as well as in the surrounding districts Aghdam, Jabrail, Fuzuli, Kalbajar, Gubadli, Lachin and Zangilan of Azerbaijan. According to The 2018 War Report prepared by the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights, 'Armenia exercises its authority over Nagorno-Karabakh by equipping, financing or training and providing operational support to the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and its forces, but also in coordinating and helping the general planning of their military and paramilitary activities'.

it contained links to the above mentioned report as well as Wikipedia article

Grazie!!!

--XASRx (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Your recent edits are trying to make the point that one side of the conflict has more legitimacy than the other. It violates WP:NPOV, and that is why your edits are being removed. Acebulf (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

"I quote international sources and official government reports - UN declarations, US government website, international news outlets." We can clearly see your bias here. Please refrain from attempting to smear either side by using biased articles such as the ones you provided, per WP:NPOV. Thank you. Balkanite (talk) 01:45, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Syrian "mercenaries" and PKK

Please remove both of these, ridiculous claims. Beshogur (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Beshogur I think it is fine since both are clearly labelled as allegations not established facts and therefor also not included in the infobox. Both sources obviously have their biases, but should not be rejected just because they are Greek and Turkish. Besides the SOHR also has a story alleging SNA presence in Azerbaijan. [[1]] Even if one or both turn out to be false they can of interest as examples of the ongoing propaganda war. Icarusatthesun (talk)

Corrected dead link and found a Reuters article confirming SNA presence in the fighting [[2]] Would someone be so kind and add both to the source material? Icarusatthesun (talk) 14:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC) —Preceding undated comment added 18:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

the rejection of the claims by the azeri side, in particular by the defense ministry of Azerbaijan(azeri defense minster said there is no need for such a force as Azerbaijan has conscription as well as a large standing military) as well as lack of tangible evidence or presence observed should be mentioned.

It should also be mentioned that the Azeri Envoy to Ankara has claimed that there is involvement of ASALA linked fighters involved in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/armenia-deploys-terror-groups-pkk-asala-to-occupied-areas/1987803 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Remove “Syrian Armenian Mercenaries” that is BS propaganda Avedji (talk) 10:07, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Article should be renamed to 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War

As Azerbaijan and Artkash have both declared a state of war, this is a war and the article should be renamed as such. See here [3] and here [4].XavierGreen (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Too early. It could en in days or few weeks. There is nothing like full scale war right now. Beshogur (talk) 17:29, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

There is literally a declared war going on, it matters not how long it lasts or even if combat is actually occurring see for example Anglo-Swedish War. Since the parties on both sides have declared a state of war, it is now literally and legally a war.XavierGreen (talk) 17:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

The military activity is going on almost exclusively in Nagorno-Karabakh which is within the internationally recognized borders of Azerbaijan, so no formal declaration of war has been made. Also, none of the state sources (state media, Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, etc) reported the declaration of war. Brandmeister^talk 18:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, it should be renamed. Wars don't have to last any specific time period, conflicts can last only for a few minutes (Anglo-Zanzibar War), and still be considered wars. Pisiu369 (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Pisiu369's suggestion. There was a war that was declared. Unless Wikipedia has other qualifications in its rules for what is and isn't a war, I see no reason not to change the title. --Grngu (talk) 17:55, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that the title should include the word war at this point, but something more definitive than "clashes" might be warranted at this stage. Acebulf (talk) 17:41, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Oppose state of war (curfew) and declaration of war are two separate things. Azerbaijan does not recognize the separatist regime in Nagorno-Karabakh, it can't declare war on it. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 18:03, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Azerbajan declared a state of war to exist, while it did not declare war on Nagorno-Karabakh the Azerbaijani government considers itself to be at war according to the sources stating such like Al-Jazeera [5]. And recognition has nothing to do with a state declaring war, Egypt does not recognize ISIS but Egypt in 2015 officially declared itself to be in a state of war due to its ongoing conflict with ISIS in 2015.XavierGreen (talk) 01:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, Second Nagorno-Karabakh War is more fitting than that. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 18:04, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion of renaming it "Second Nagorno-Karabakh War". Ultimograph5 (talk) 18:09, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per Solavirum. Brandmeister^talk 18:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - Armenia is listed as a belligerent in the infobox. If we rename the article to include the word “war”, wouldn’t it imply Armenia and Azerbaijan are at official war when they’re not? — Coastaline (talk) 23:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Because Azerbaijan has declared itself to be in a a state of war and news sources are calling it a war see here [6]XavierGreen (talk) 00:55, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Instead of war or clashes how about hostilities? Huskermax5 (talk) 18:53, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Bloomberg News is calling this a war, see here [7]XavierGreen (talk) 00:55, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Comment Senior Advisor to the President of Azerbaijan, Ilham Aliyev, Hikmet Hajiyev: "war has been launched against Azerbaijan. The people of Azerbaijan are mobilized in such a difficult period. This is the Great Patriotic War of the Azerbaijani people."

I agree, this is war. Both nations are in martial law, and Armenia is beginning conscription. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 19:28, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this should be called war as well. Both nations are involved in pretty heavy conflict and as TheAwesomeAtoms said both of them are in martial law and Armenia is beginning mobilization. Elserbio00 (talk) 00:15, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this should be called a war due to both countries referring to it as such and other aforementioned points PhamtomGuy (talk) 00:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This is a declared war. 2601:600:C87F:C120:50B4:8F4D:F3B2:C7DA (talk) 01:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Definitely a war. I propose the temporary name "2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war", rather than immediately naming it the "Second Nagorno-Karabakh War". The war is only in its third day, and could still end up as a limited war akin to the 2016 "Four-Day War". Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 01:30, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I think this is definitely the best solution. Definitely a war, but not long in scale enough yet to be called the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War, while 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War is very fitting at the moment. The comparison to April is very fitting, as that was also called a war, and this is much more serious than that. An alternative option would be the September War, but I like the first option better. Achemish (talk) 08:30, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2020

Please change the number of casualties per Armenian sources to dozens. The source is a press release by the President of the Artsakh Republic who states that there are dozens of casualties on the Armenian side. See video here: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=814151416014805&extid=Wu5kLVfkAHLOGUNz Younghistorian19 (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

flag errors

Hi, there are some flag errors on the right information bar. The Turkish flag is posted next to Nikol Pashinyan instead of the Armenian flag. Other similar errors follow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.232.116 (talk) 20:12, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Total mobilization

I know sources use that term, but what does it mean? It needs to be explained in the article. ― Hebsen (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Report on PKK/YPG involvement

Here is an article by James Wilson on The European Union Political Report, "PKK’s Involvement in the Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict would Jeopardise European Security". --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 22:02, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Should be added to the sources. Icarusatthesun (talk) 14:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

6 a.m. or 8 a.m.?

Not clear from the current version of the article: did the armed conflict (attack) begin at 6 a.m. or 8 a.m., and which side started it? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:12, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

173.88.246.138, the Azerbaijani side claims that it started at 06:00, when the Armenians violated the ceasefire and shelled Azerbaijani villages, and then the Azerbaijani forces launched a counter-offensive. While the Armenian side don't mention what happened at 06:00, and state that the clashes started when the Azerbaijani forces launched a "pre-planned" attack on Karabakh. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 06:43, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Background part

The sentences in the Background part of this article seem to be against the principles of WP:TOOLONG.

In the first paragraph, Although it is stated in the article "Nagorno-Karabakh" that this region belongs to Azerbaijan, it is repeated in that page's first sentence and Republic of Artsakh is defining "self proclaimed" again, which is already described in its article. So, this sentences are against WP:TOOLONG. If we look at the previous conflict page, the background is quite short but clear and plain. I suggest rewriting this sentence as "The clashes stem from the dispute over the Armenian-majority Nagorno-Karabakh, a de jure territory of Azerbaijan, and de facto territory of Republic of Artsakh.".

The second sentence can be shortened as "The Nagorno-Karabakh War had ended with a ceasefire in 1994, with Armenia in control of the Nagorno-Karabakh region, as well as in the surrounding districts."

The third sentence is totally irrelevant about this conflict. It is relevant with Armenia-N.K. Gov relations. I believe this sentece should be deleted.

The last sentence in this paragraph has no problem as I see.

The second paragraph is also not directly relevant with this conflict. It looks more like a compile of the news. But, If the Wikipedia community considers these events are significant, this paragraph should be shortened.

Last paragraph is relevant and important about this page but I guess it's place is not "Background" division. Those claims should be moved to another part. For example, a new headline like "Claims" under "Clashes" part. ––Amillians (talk) 08.25, 28 September 2020 —Preceding undated comment added 05:25, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Minor spillover in Iran

Per this report:

Iranian officials reported that as a result of the clashes, an artillery projectile hit the village of Khalaf Beygluy-e Sofla in the Khoda Afarin County, with no "financial or human damage." (sources: اصابت راکت به یکی از روستاهای آذربایجان شرقی,

— اصابت راکت به روستای خلف بیگلو خسارت مالی و جانی نداشت)

can we say that the location of the clashes include Iran? Note that a similar thing happened in 2016 clashes. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 07:11, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I think this is too minor for the infobox. Simple mention within the article's body should suffice. Brandmeister^talk 08:45, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

The General Secretariat of the Organization of American States (GS/OAS) strongly condemned "the recent military aggression of Azerbaijan". GevHev4 (talk) 07:48, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

 Done, kind of. I phrased it differently to better match how we have written about other reactions. TompaDompa (talk) 13:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

On 28 September, the President of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic Arayik Harutyunyan claimed, that "during the night, the Defense Army carried out several brilliant military operations, restoring lost positions in various parts of the defense line or making some progress". GevHev4 (talk) 07:59, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Servicemen&location

Can we remove this word, it is very unnecessary. & about the location "Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenia & Azerbaijan", does this imply that Nagorno Karabakh is in Armenia since we see the comma? Plus I didn't find any source about fight going on inside Armenia or on the borders. It should be changed to Nagorno-Karabakh, Azerbaijan. Beshogur (talk) 09:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Armenia reported developments in Vardenis yesterday. Source: 1, 2. And per Armenia, an Azerbaijani UAV was shot down near the same city. Source: 1. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:20, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

This request is rather trivial and borders on nit-picking, but the proper term for a tank exploding in the manner shown in one of the pictures below is "Cooking off" Perhaps the word "exploding" could be replaced with a bluelink to here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_off#Tanks Benjideaula (talk) 09:13, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Source of Armenian forces killing two Azerbaijani children

A news article by Report Information Agency says:

A whole family was killed in the city of Naftalan as a result of the shelling of our settlements by the Armenian Armed Forces on September 27.

According to the Ministry of Education, two of the victims were schoolchildren.

It was noted that Shahriyar Gurbanov, born in 2007, and his cousin, Fidan Gurbanova, born in 2006, are students of Gashalti Garagoyunlu village secondary school named after Z. Rustamov.

Since yesterday, the Armenian side has been grossly violating the norms and principles of international law, the 1949 Geneva Conventions, by purposefully targeting the civilian population and infrastructure of Azerbaijan.

The leadership and staff of the Ministry of Education express their sorrow and condolences over the death of all our compatriots, including a whole family and students in the city of Naftalan, who lost their lives as a result of the Armenian aggression.

Today, we wish success to our soldiers, who have made history and are a source of pride, in the liberation of our lands from occupation!

The original text:

Sentyabrın 27-dən Ermənistan silahlı qüvvələrinin yaşayış məntəqələrimizi atəşə tutması nəticəsində Naftalan şəhərində bütöv bir ailə həlak olub.

Təhsil Nazirliyindən "Report"a verilən məlumata görə, bu təcavüz nəticəsində həlak olanlardan ikisi məktəblidir.

Bildirilib ki, 2007-ci il təvəllüdlü Şəhriyar Qurbanov və onun əmisi qızı, 2006-cı il təvəllüdlü Fidan Qurbanova Z.Rüstəmov adına Qaşaltı Qaraqoyunlu kənd tam orta məktəbinin şagirdləridir. Ötən gündən başlayaraq Ermənistan tərəfi Azərbaycanın mülki əhalisini və infrastrukturunu məqsədyönlü şəkildə hədəfə almaqla beynəlxalq hüququn norma və prinsiplərini, 1949-cu il Cenevrə Konvensiyalarını kobudcasına pozur.

Təhsil Nazirliyinin rəhbərliyi və kollektivi Ermənistanın təcavüzü nəticəsində həyatını itirmiş bütün həmvətənlərimizin, o cümlədən Naftalan şəhərində bütöv bir ailənin və şagirdlərimizin həlak olmasından kədərləndiyini bildirir, dərin hüznlə başsağlığı verir.

Bu gün tarix yazan və qürur mənbəyimiz olan əsgərlərimizə torpaqlarımızın işğaldan azad edilməsi yolunda uğurlar arzulayırıq!

--► Sincerely: SolaVirum 09:52, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Report Information Agency was established and it's owned by the Azerbaijani state oil company SOCAR, so I find their reports unreliable. I would oppose using them as a reference. --Governor Sheng (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Governor Sheng the article says that the information came from the Ministry of Education. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 12:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I suppose the Ministry of Education of Azerbaijan? I would rather wait for an independent source to confirm such a claim. --Governor Sheng (talk) 12:19, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

It currently already asserts "claimed by". You can cite that caveat. 37.186.97.171 (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Territorial changes

@EkoGraf: Has added a reference in which Armenia claims "...that they restored a number of previously lost positions." However he worded it as, all lost positions are captured[8]. Please revert this and do not repeat disruptive editing in the future. Resapp (talk) 12:05, 28 September 2020 (UTC) @Solavirum: @Benjideaula: @Beshogur:. @MarshallBagramyan: Resapp (talk) 12:05, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Al Masdar, which is generally unreliable cites Sputnik, which is banned to use here. I'm just saying this. Beshogur (talk) 12:12, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Resapp, like I said at your talk page, please refrain from making accusations against your fellow editors as per Wikipedia's policy on assuming good faith and civility. The edit I made was based on the title of the article which simply stated Armenia retook the territory it had lost. Even the sentence you pointed out can be interpreted they retook all of the territory they had lost. However, for sake of compromise, I reworded the sentence that they retook a number of the lost positions. I would also advise you to read up on Wikipedia's policy and assume a less combative stance against your fellow editors. As for Masdar's reliability, they have already been confirmed to be mostly reliable in regard to reporting on military territorial changes. Also, they are citing Armenia, so they are not making the claim themselves. And the claim of the recapture has been properly attributed to Armenia, just like we have properly attributed the claim on the capture of 7 villages to Azerbaijan. EkoGraf (talk) 12:20, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Adding information without reading the reference is disruptive, whether you do it knowingly or unknowingly. There are no personal attacks directed towards you with this regard, warning are made to improve Wikipedia, if you feel that warnings are attacks directed towards you personally please see WP:BATTLEGROUND. Resapp (talk) 12:18, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Reuters added instead [9]. EkoGraf (talk) 12:25, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Why did you even wrote such a long text, didn't accuse you of something, just the truth about both new outlets. I said "generally unreliable". Beshogur (talk) 12:26, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Beshogur: The long text was in reply to the message Resapp left on my talk page accusing me of biased disruptive editing. It wasn't in reply to you. Sorry for the confusion. I would never think you were making accusations against me Beshogur since you and I have had a good working relationship for a long time now, always finding a compromise. EkoGraf (talk) 12:30, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello everyone, I would like to ask a question to User:Resapp, you have been acusing other editors of disruptive editing and threatening other of being blocked. A conduct I have seen repetively on Sock accounts made by a Evasive Sockpuppet Master Gala19000 and Ramdomuser. I have also doubts about your behaviour. You have just created a account in this month but you look too familiar of how Wikipedia works. Have you been banned before? Do you use multiple accounts?Mr.User200 (talk) 13:17, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I concur with Mr.User200 that Resapp is very likely a sockpuppet of Interfase, who apperently has a history of edit wars. @EkoGraf: @Beshogur: @Solavirum: @Brandmeister: Icarusatthesun (talk) 17:10, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't have any sockpuppets in Wikipedia. --Interfase (talk) 17:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

Change the infobox territory statement from "Azerbaijan captured some positions, some of which were later recaptured" to "Azerbaijan captured some positions, some later recaptured" since it gets rid of weasel words WP:WEASEL. Resapp (talk) 13:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC) Resapp (talk) 13:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Dead Armenian soldiers in Talış heights.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

Domestic reactions---Armenia

On 28 September, Armenia accused Turkey on Monday of providing direct military support for Azerbaijan. The Armenian foreign ministry said in a statement that Turkey had a “direct presence on the ground”. It said Turkish military experts “are fighting side by side” with Azerbaijan. An unimportant person (talk) 15:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

References

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Armenian tank getting destroyed.jpg
• Dead Armenian soldiers in Talış heights.jpg
• Destruction of an Armenian arms depot.jpg

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Reactions from supranational organizations

Regarding this edit: Is there any good reason to quote people directly when we could perfectly well paraphrase them (especially when some of them express similar sentiments which could be summarized), to use an eyesore of a bulletlist, to have a flag salad, or to remove the Organization of American States' reaction? To my eye, what we end up with looks extremely unprofessional and frankly kind of embarrassing to have linked from the WP:Main page. TompaDompa (talk) 17:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Care to elaborate on your reasoning? TompaDompa (talk) 23:10, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

I would like to improve the article on the ongoing Nagorno-Karbakh Conflict. Carthago814 (talk) 18:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC) I

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. TompaDompa (talk) 19:33, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

Carthago814 (talk) 18:05, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. TompaDompa (talk) 19:33, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

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rejection of Madrid Principles and recent rhetoric and behavior by the Pashinyan administration as part of Azeri Casus belli

It seems to be a very significant element to the Azeri side in opposing fait accompli in regards to the conflict. The recent election which brought a "velvet populism" with regards to the conflict should be mentioned.

some excerpts cited by an azeri analyst as to their rationale around the conflict:

"Recently, those observing the Armenia–Azerbaijan conflict witnessed another brick falling from the already shattered peace process. At the end of August, Anna Hakobyan, the wife of the Prime Minster of the Republic Armenia, Nikol Pashinyan, participated in publicized military training in the occupied territories of Azerbaijan; her targets, picturing Azerbaijani subjects, went viral on social media. This happened only one year after her famous call for peace that saw her pictured with a bouquet of flowers in hand."

Reactions on the Azerbaijani side were rightly both confused and irritated – but also, somehow, acquiescent. Unfortunately, the July 12–14 clashes at the international border in the direction of Tovuz district of Azerbaijan, as well as the events preceding them and ensuing after this escalation, do not leave much room for optimism that the incumbent Armenian leadership will in any way commit to meaningful peace negotiations from now on."

"The list of provocations and disruptive actions further include Nikol Pashinyan’s infamous ‘Karabakh is Armenia and period’ statement that was also coupled with the rejuvenation of a dangerous miatsum (unification) ideology in regard to the Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan; the organization of the so-called ‘parliamentary and presidential elections’ in the occupied territories of Azerbaijan; and Pashinyan’s visit to the historical Azerbaijani city of Shusha in May 2020."

"However, the real step towards halting the negotiations was taken in March 2020, when the Armenia rejected the existence of any document at the negotiation table, despite both sides, under the auspices of the OSCE Minsk Group co-chaired by France, Russia and the U.S.A., working on the so-called Madrid Principles for the resolution of the conflict. Those Principles were first revealed in 2007 and revised in 2009."

https://www.eurasiareview.com/18092020-velvet-populism-ends-decade-long-discussion-of-the-madrid-principles-oped/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_Principles

The rejection of the Madrid Principles, which there was some agreement on both the armenian and azeri side, coupled with the talks of annexing the territory into Armenia proper should be mentioned as cause.

Syrian National Army

This conflict is only in its third day. While there are several reports that Turkey has been recruiting SNA fighters to go to Azerbaijan, I have yet to see proof that they have fought on the frontline. For all we know, this conflict could end tomorrow. Let's hold off on adding the SNA to the infobox until there is conclusive evidence that their fighters have not only arrived to Azerbaijan, but have been deployed on the frontline. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 01:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no evidence, elementary lie.--Nicat49 (talk) 01:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I tried removing it, someone reinstated it with the note "Alleged by Armenia, denied by Azerbaijan. Personally I'd like it taken down for now.--RM (Be my friend) 02:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@TheEpicGhosty: Since you used the word "allegation": The infobox is meant to summarize the content of the article. Allegations can be mentioned in the article itself, but shouldn't be in the infobox. Don't worry, though: If the allegations hold merit (which I personally think they do), Turkish/SNA involvement on the ground will be confirmed soon enough, and we can add Turkey/SNA/both to the infobox without a footnote. Let's take it easy and wait until there's conclusive proof that the SNA has fought on the frontline. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 04:27, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

No Syrian or Kurdish "ghost fighters" were reported among the causalities with a proof. But Vagif Dargahli said that there were Syrian mercs among the casualities. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 06:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

If it was just Syrian mercs as opposed to organized SNA forces then they shouldn't even be in the Infobox as they were just paid by Azerbaijan and under Azeri command.--RM (Be my friend) 08:45, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has be en nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Armenian military equipment getting destroyed.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2020

Article title should be changed to 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict. This name is the result of a large conversation earlier in the page. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Cleanup

Can someone add notes on ""per armenia"", ""per azerbaijan"", etc.? Beshogur (talk) 10:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Beshogur, an Armenian user is removing them. Please, comment on the issue below. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:29, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

POV-pushing

Armenian users have been POV-pushing. The allegations of Syrian and Turkish involvement have been presented by the Armenian side, and apparently, two Syrian rebels. Stop removing the claim. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

"Turkey's involvement is direct and explciit" is a groundless statement. A statement by a user is not a source. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:27, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Source provided clearly states that these are allegations from the Armenian MFA. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:30, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Beshogur (talk) 10:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

An allegation made by Armenia regarding Syrian fighters is added to the infobox but yet users are removing PKK/YPG involvement as unconfirmed. Two sided?Resapp (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

"Territory recaptured by Azerbaijan"

If this isn't POV pushing I don't know what is. Are we to assume that every reader coming to this article is immediately aware of the past 30 years of conflict? The article is about the clashes that began two days ago. Using the word recaptured for a territory that is recaptured after 30 years makes it seem, as if Azerbaijan captured the territory it lost 2 days ago. Please fix this to "captured". Since this article is about the 2 days of clashes. Not the 30 year old frozen conflict which has a separate article. @Solavirum, JHunterJ, Interfase, and Beshogur: Resapp (talk) 11:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

There's no reason to ping every recent contributor to the article. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:53, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Azerbaijan captured "a height"

Mount Murovdag, quoting Wikipedia: is the highest mountain range in the Lesser Caucasus, Azerbaijan. Can you change this from "A height" to Peak of "Mount Murovdag"? @Solavirum, JHunterJ, Interfase, and Beshogur: Resapp (talk) Resapp (talk) 11:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Destroying Azeri helicopter

Here is the video of the Armenians destroying an Azeri helicopter from today. The video is properly licensed and can be used on here if anyone wants to upload it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O1mO0XLXwY&feature=youtu.be Elserbio00 (talk) 11:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Oic

Oic commented too. Obviousiy supporting AZ. Also Iran issued a denials its soil was used to send arms. 37.186.97.171 (talk) 12:41, 29 September 2020 (UTC) Also one member of the tripartite presidency on Bosnia. You can guess who supported whom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.186.97.171 (talk) 12:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)