Talk:A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Article tone is non-encyclopedically praiseful

I've just run across the article after seeing the documentary Hare Krishna! and doing other research, and I think to any disinterested eye that this article is incredibly one-sided and written in a tone of respectful awe rather than neutral tone. Nowhere, for instance, is there a mention about his frequently expressed racism and antisemitism. To ignore this aspect of him is whitewashing. For example, in a speech in Melbourne on April 21, 1976, he praised the concept of "the Aryan":

The best form of human life, the Aryans... Aryans. Aryans means those who are advanced. So the Aryan family, the history of Aryan family... From Central Asia, Caucasian ranges, they divided, the Indo-Aryans, Indo-Europeans. This is the history of mankind. So the Europeans, they belong to the Indo-Europeans, and some of the Europeans, not the uncivilized, the civilized, they came from that side, eastern side, when there was a threatening by Paraśurāma to kill the kṣatriyas. So most of the kṣatriyas, they came to Europe, and some of them settled in the middle, the border of Europe and Asia, Turkey, Greece. There is a big history, Mahābhārata. Mahābhārata means the greater history of India. So on the whole, the conclusion is that the Aryans spread in Europe also, and the Americans, they also spread from Europe. So the intelligent class of human being, they belong to the Aryans, Aryan family. Just like Hitler claimed that he belonged to the Aryan family. Of course, they belonged to the Aryan families.

And during a morning walk in Hyderabad on April 20, 1974: "That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape."

He also felt gays were "abominable" and inherently unspiritual, writing in a May 16, 1975, letter to Lalitananda dasa, "I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. ... Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil."

These are just a few examples. It's unconscionable that an encyclopedia article is being used as promotional material and disrespecting the subject by not presenting him as a full human being with a range of traits. These are not examples of trivialities, but of major components of who he is as a person. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

It sounds like you disagree with the subject of the bio's religious views. There are many religions that are critical of gay people, most notably fundamental Christianity (Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind it is abomination, neither shalt thou defile thyself with any beast, Leviticus), but I don't see POV tag bombs in the articles on Christianity. There are also religions which are critical of people of African ancestry (mormons claim in the Book of Abraham that black people were cursed by god for joining Satan's rebellion in the pre-existence and were forced to be born "of the accursed lineage of Cain" and were subsequently denied the priesthood in the mormon church until 1978). Some religions, like Islam, claim that all non-believers deserve to be killed ("all infidels must die" is written in the Koran in 109 separate verses). I don't find the tone all that promotional. The religious beliefs of any group are not strictly POV from an editing standpoint they simply are what they are, and we should write about them in an impartial tone. Octoberwoodland (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I added your suggested content and removed the tag. I will refine the content so it complies with WP policies. Octoberwoodland (talk) 23:32, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

The material about Prabhupada's views on homosexuality should be removed, per WP:PROPORTION: "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject." Prabhupada's views on homosexuality are a very, very, minor aspect of his work and writings, the overwhelming majority of which have nothing to do with homosexuality at all. Unless you can show that secondary sources have discussed Prabhupada's views on this topic, they simply do not belong in the article. Note that adding the claim that Prabhupada's views on homosexuality "garnered significant public controversy" without any citation to back it up is completely inappropriate; see WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Some envious people always have objection to Prabhupāda's work. Polytope4D (talk) 14:13, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

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not a word about his work-life.

and it will be nice if someone has an old map of his parents house. 11:20, 18 September 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7C0:2041:1AA:0:0:0:DB (talk)

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His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

@Octoberwoodland: It seems that this edit was not accompanied by a supporting reference. Can you furnish one? LeadSongDog come howl! 23:15, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I will locate a source for this. I have attended the Krishna Temple we have here locally for many years, and a large number of their books state this. He is referred to in their writings as "His divine grace A.C. Prabhupada" indicating that adherents to the movement consider him divine. Octoberwoodland (talk) 01:22, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I added the references and reverted the edit from an anon IP who removed this content. Prabhupada's followers consider him an incarnation of Krishna himself. In the ISKCON religion, all men and women have the capacity to achieve "Krishna Conciousness" through the practice of bhakti yoga, which means they can manifest the supreme personality of God and become divine avatars of Krishna. They teach that Krishna is inside everyone and that is where the greeting phrase "Namaste" originates -- it literally translates as "I honor the God within you". Octoberwoodland (talk) 01:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

None of those four sources cited support the statement "Adherents of the ISKCON movement view Prabhupada as a divine avatar and messenger of Krishna." The first doesn't even mention it. The other three use the "Divine Grace" honourific in the voice of their institutional editors, but make no assertion about whether adherents believe it as literal truth. Reading between the lines is outside the scope of a Wikipedia editor: see wp:NOR and wp:SYN. We need reliable sources that make clear statements. We simply paraphrase. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:24, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

All of those sources refer to him as "His Divine Grace". If you feel that strongly about it, then feel free to remove the statement. You can call any of the Krishna Temples and they will tell you he is viewed as a divine avatar of Krishna. Here's a phone number for one - (801) 798-3559. If you are unable to ascertain that from the sources, feel free to get some better materials to quote -- They will be happy to provide them. Octoberwoodland (talk) 00:48, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

I think my point was not clear enough for you. The encyclopedia should not adopt the voice of adherents from any particular point of view, whether that is published by ISKON or the Vatican. The best sources to use for subjects like this are comparative religion textbooks or journal articles. Anything published within a faith system is inherently expected to carry that faith's POV.LeadSongDog come howl! 20:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

The article does not have an encyclopedic tone. It has unnecessary details that make the article too lengthy. This is an encyclopedia, not a biography. N K Srikanth (talk) 02:08, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, this is a biographical article. If you have issues with the tone, please suggest some changes are make some yourself. Octoberwoodland (talk) 00:50, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

explaining the name

I read in the article: His later well known name, Prabhupāda, is a Sanskrit title, literally meaning "he who has taken the shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord" where prabhu denotes "Lord", and pāda means "taking shelter." end of quotation

As you can easily check, pada in Sanskrit means "feet". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.252.211.62 (talk) 19:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Improving the "views on other religions" section

Ravi Sandesh (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC) Ravi Sandesh Aug 18, 2018 I made two edits which were reverted. I had originally suggested these edits because I believe they improves the quality of this article on the Swami by presenting the views of the Swami on other religions as they are. I have studied the teachings of the person thru his books and thru his lectures, and I can give ample references from them that - 1. He presents both ISKCON (which is the institution created by the person to institutionally impart his teachings) and its teachings as non-religious, and that 2. Any person from any religion can follow ISKCON teaching. I believe that the proportion in which he stresses again and again the views as I have presented in my edits is almost 100%, meaning that he has hardly presented even any other view, and I believe that the proportion in which he talks about the religious position of his teachings is also large.

I suggested in the first edit to remove references that show ISKCON as Hindu. but it was rejected on ground of too many quotes. Then I again suggested an edit with only one additional quote, but it was rejected on ground of NPOV and RS. I am new here, but I believe that I satisfied both NPOV and RS. the source for my edit was https://vanipedia.org/ and https://vanisource.org/wiki/731111_-_Lecture_SB_01.02.06_-_Delhi. This website has all the audio that was recorded as well as transcripts of audio that the Bhaktivedanta Swami spoke in his lifetime. It also has his books, and it also has his letters thru which he managed the institution over the world. I believe that this contributes as a reliable source. So can anyone suggest what is happening. Maybe I have misunderstood the scope or nature of edits, whats allowed in an edit and so on, or maybe the person who has reverted my edits has misunderstood. No offense taken from anyone.

Thanking everyone for the contributions, Ravi Sandesh. Ravi Sandesh (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC) Ravi Sandesh Aug 18, 2018

Sorry, Ravi Sandesh, but Vanipedia cannot be considered as a neutral, reliable source, because it is written and edited from within that belief system. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:18, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Wondering why such non-encyclopedical non-neutral tone in this article gets unnoticed by the wikipedians.

It is quite evident and as some peple have already pointed out below, this article clearly has been written from a non neutral point of view and in a non-encyclopedical tone. It lacks any mention to the multiple criticisms of his and ISCON foundations works and his well documented racist,sexist,misogynistic and homophobic remarks, even though some wikipedians are claiming this is a neutral biographical article below. I'm not citing any sources in this talkpage section as the internet is full of them anyways. Wikipedians who have already made a significant "contribution" to this article and who are willing to improve this article can access them without much effort. Bubo Bengalensis (talk) 18:29, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Edits are seemingly being removed to maintain non-encyclopedical praise

Some editors are seemingly reversing edits of mine and others to maintain the non-encyclopedical tone of this article. I added details to the "Creationism" subheader and removed the "citation needed" template. I do not see why further citation is needed to substantiate Bhaktivedanta Swami's creationist beliefs when in the book and source Beyond Illusion and Doubt he explicitely outlines his creationism and criticisms of evolution. This article is also by Bhaktivedanta Swami. The reason given for a citation supposedly being needed was: "Cites a website owned by [Bhaktivedanta Swami's] group as interpreted by one person. Also cites a primary source. If no secondary neutral sources exist, remove it. Use reliable neutral published sources." Reminder that citing a primary source is not necessarily "bad". It is not necessary to remove the information simply because a secondary source is not provided. The sources used are literally the words of Bhaktivedanta Swami on creationism and evolution. What more do you need?