Talk:2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement

Problems

This article seems like a needless separation of information that belongs on the 2020 Nagorno-Karabagh article -- This information hardly warrants an article of its own, at least not in the current form where the majority of text is simply just a point by point retelling of the points agreed upon. Eik Corell (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

KeepIt is a very important and historical agreement (not like the previous flimsy cease-fires) so it should be kept.Polmas (talk) 12:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

A ceasefire agreement that has ended a war (and may potentially induce to end a 30 year old conflict), that is going to change a lot the politics of Armenia and Azerbajan and the whole Caucasus in general and which may provoke the first major territorial change in many years looks pretty notable to me. Also, the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war article is already too long and crowded. Super Ψ Dro 12:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I was just about to comment that the naming of the article was what threw me off initially, i.e that these weren't really established in the same way as the Bishkek Protocol, but I just noticed the new name and it all seems a little better now. Eik Corell (talk) 12:32, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Since we have established a consensus for notability, I am removing the notability tag. Polmas (talk) 12:47, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Kelbajar rayon vs map

The article says that "The Republic of Armenia will return to Azerbaijan the Kelbajar rayon by November 15th 2020". However, the map in this article only includes the western part of the Kalbajar District in hatched colors (to be returned to Azerbaijan), while it depicts the eastern part (the part that was part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast) in light green (hosting Russian peacekeeping force). Which one is correct? --67.160.159.188 (talk) 02:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The map

Cordyceps-Zombie Hi, I've removed the map as the details about control are not known yet. The only thing we know is withdrawal from 3 surrounding districts. The actual military control of Azerbaijan is also unknown, therefore we need to wait until the details are cleared and an official map is provided. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Deployment of observation points at Karabakh

Russian Ministry of Defense published map of deployment of observation points at Karabakh. This map could be used in the article and for updating the war map. https://t.me/SputnikArmenia/10137

According to the armistice "the parties stop at the positions they occupy." And according to the map part of the Karabakh south to the Shushi is ceded to Azeris. This implies that Azerbaijan had control over those area. --Yakamoz51 (talk) 14:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Sputnik is not a reliable source. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 23:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Map

other map

Map showing rules, including dates, for individual territories.

I have created a map of the agreement, 2020 Artsakh ceasefire map.svg. As with all war-time maps it is based on the best available information, and will evolve with the situation. @CuriousGolden removed the map, stating that "[we must] wait until an official map is released". My opinion would be that it should go in the article, possibly with a disclaimer. Any other opinions? Mapeh (talk) 18:08, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello, details of the peace deal are not known yet. Also, your map shows the Azerbaijani gains to Shusha as a one long road, while the official maps released by Russia show that all of the southern half is controlled by Azerbaijan. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I based it on the map in the main article on the war (QarabaghWarMap(2020).svg), but can obviously be updated just as that map was. Mapeh (talk) 18:27, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: details of the peace deal are not known yet - they are right in the article, points 1 to 9. TerraCyprus (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I too made a map ;-) Which more covers the hole area and I hope is more in line with the actual text of the ceasefire statement. I also included where the information is unclear. --Don-kun (talk) 21:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Wait for official boundaries by either governments. As of now, many publications provide significantly different maps. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 23:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The maps are in the section for Terms of agreement, no need to wait. TerraCyprus (talk) 02:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

And there is another map: "Staged map of border changes in Karabakh as per 2020 Armenia- Azerbaijan Agreement.png", @Don-kun: in your map, the unblocked transport arrow should better go to the south, not? TerraCyprus (talk) 02:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The third map has quite flawed borders, compare to the first two which use the same more detailed sources. No, the unblocked arrow should not (necessarily) go south. The agreement does not mention where the link(s) should be, neither that its only one. Even building new ones is part of the agreement, so it could literally be everywhere in Armenia (topography aside). That's why I choose to put the arrow in the middle. --Don-kun (talk) 05:50, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

All of the maps here have a lot of mistakes in them. The control of Shusha isn't a long snake-like control (per Russia's official map), which makes the 2 maps here immediately wrong. The map with caption "other map" shows remaining parts of Zangilan and Qubadli Districts as Russian peacekeeper control, which again is also wrong. I have removed the maps from the article until a correct map is made. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:40, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

No, the part of Zangilan and Qubadli is not wrong. Its exacly what the agreement is saying: contact line of november 9th is monitored by Russian peacekeepers and no further mentioning of both districts. One might disagree where the contact line exacly is, but its pretty clear that there is a contact line through both of these districts. --Don-kun (talk) 08:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreement has not said anything about Qubadli and Zangilan having Russian peacekeepers. The peacekeepers are meant to be deployed in non-Azerbaijani controlled Nagorno-Karabakh. In fact in the Russian government map, most of it is shown under Azerbaijani control and rest is shown to be given away to Azerbaijan. Therefore, it's wrong. These things are exactly why I'm saying we need to wait for some time to know the details. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

To be honest, I think we're getting to the point where this is just a bit disruptive. Look, Solavirum and CuriousGolden, I've worked with you both a fair bit on this topic now, and I know you're acting in good faith here, but the BBC has published an almost identical map to the ones we have here, and Golden's point above, peacekeepers are meant to be deployed in non-Azerbaijani controlled Nagorno-Karabakh is precisely why it is accurate to show the areas of the former NKAO remaining still under Armenian control, remaining under Armenian control. It seems that we're misguidedly holding off on including a map with the hope that there'll be a reinterpretation of what the parties stop at the current territorial positions they occupy means. I'm going to re-add the map by Mapeh, which looks excellent to me, as we should follow the RS (BBC) on this until we see other reliable sources saying otherwise. Jr8825 • Talk 10:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jr8825: My problem wasn't with who controls what. I had problems with the 3 specific maps here which I pointed out in my latest comments. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Your problems are based on your interpretation of the treaty, so are ultimately WP:OR. We have an authoritative source to go from here, echoing the maps we have. Jr8825 • Talk 11:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

We need to base the maps based on the only official map source we have available right now. Which is the Russia government peacekeeper map. I didn't know making up a map completely based on the mapmaker's assumptions was allowed? The map should display the available information and not touch on subjects not known to the public yet. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:12, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this isn't how Wikipedia's policy works. We follow reliable secondary sources, of which the BBC is one, and we prioritise these over primary sources (see WP:RSPRIMARY) in order to avoid original research and interpretive issues, precisely as we are having here. Unless you can point to a policy objection that I'm not seeing, I'll go ahead and add the maps shortly. Jr8825 • Talk 11:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Russian Ministry of Defense already published a map of deployment of observation points and borders at Karabakh. This map could be used in the article and for updating the war map. https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/en/2020/11-november-russian-ministry-of-defense-published-map-of --31.145.12.106 (talk) 11:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The Russian map has an obvious contradiction to the text of the statement: Agdam in the map stays under Armenian control. But their map of the contact line is mostly similar to my map :) Also, CuriousGolden, I did not make *any* asumptions in my map. It is purely what the text of the agreement says. You are the one making asumptions. And many of the other maps too, ignoring the uncertainties. --Don-kun (talk) 11:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)