Talk:COVID-19 pandemic

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01. Superseded by #9

The first few sentences of the lead's second paragraph should state The virus is typically spread during close contact and via respiratory droplets produced when people cough or sneeze. Respiratory droplets may be produced during breathing but the virus is not considered airborne. It may also spread when one touches a contaminated surface and then their face. It is most contagious when people are symptomatic, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear. (RfC March 2020)

02. Superseded by #7

The infobox should feature a per capita count map most prominently, and a total count by country map secondarily. (RfC March 2020)

03. Obsolete

The article should not use {{Current}} at the top. (March 2020)

04. Do not include a sentence in the lead section noting comparisons to World War II. (March 2020)

05. Cancelled

Include subsections covering the domestic responses of Italy, China, Iran, the United States, and South Korea. Do not include individual subsections for France, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia and Japan. (RfC March 2020) Include a short subsection on Sweden focusing on the policy controversy. (May 2020)

Subsequently overturned by editing and recognized as obsolete. (July 2024)

06. Obsolete

There is a 30 day moratorium on move requests until 26 April 2020. (March 2020)

07. There is no consensus that the infobox should feature a confirmed cases count map most prominently, and a deaths count map secondarily. (May 2020)

08. Superseded by #16

The clause on xenophobia in the lead section should read ...and there have been incidents of xenophobia and discrimination against Chinese people and against those perceived as being Chinese or as being from areas with high infection rates. (RfC April 2020)

09. Cancelled

Supersedes #1. The first several sentences of the lead section's second paragraph should state The virus is mainly spread during close contact and by small droplets produced when those infected cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets may also be produced during breathing; however, they rapidly fall to the ground or surfaces and are not generally spread through the air over large distances. People may also become infected by touching a contaminated surface and then their face. The virus can survive on surfaces for up to 72 hours. Coronavirus is most contagious during the first three days after onset of symptoms, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear and in later stages of the disease. (April 2020)

Notes

On 17:16, 6 April 2020, these first several sentences were replaced with an extracted fragment from the coronavirus disease 2019 article, which at the time was last edited at 17:11.

010. The article title is COVID-19 pandemic. The title of related pages should follow this scheme as well. (RM April 2020, RM August 2020)

011. The lead section should use Wuhan, China to describe the virus's origin, without mentioning Hubei or otherwise further describing Wuhan. (April 2020)

012. Superseded by #19

The lead section's second sentence should be phrased using the words first identified and December 2019. (May 2020)

013. Superseded by #15

File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should be used as the visual element of the misinformation section, with the caption U.S. president Donald Trump suggested at a press briefing on 23 April that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19. There is no evidence that either could be a viable method. (1:05 min) (May 2020, June 2020)

014. Overturned

Do not mention the theory that the virus was accidentally leaked from a laboratory in the article. (RfC May 2020) This result was overturned at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, as there is consensus that there is no consensus to include or exclude the lab leak theory. (RfC May 2024)

015. Supersedes #13. File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should not be used as the visual element of the misinformation section. (RfC November 2020)

016. Supersedes #8. Incidents of xenophobia and discrimination are considered WP:UNDUE for a full sentence in the lead. (RfC January 2021)

017. Only include one photograph in the infobox. There is no clear consensus that File:COVID-19 Nurse (cropped).jpg should be that one photograph. (May 2021)

018. Superseded by #19

The first sentence is The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is a global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). (August 2021, RfC October 2023)

019. Supersedes #12 and #18. The first sentence is The global COVID-19 pandemic (also known as the coronavirus pandemic), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), began with an outbreak in Wuhan, China, in December 2019. (June 2024)

Unnecessary duplication of content from the main COVID-19 page

Shouldn't this page just discuss the progress of the current pandemic instead of the disease itself? The Article on the disease already exists and I don't think it's wise to duplicate content and maintenance efforts.

I propose:

• we transclude the intro from COVID-19 in a section on the virus and then send readers there if they wish to dig deeper
• we keep this page focused on the progress of the pandemic: history, advancements, response, etc.

Has this been discussed before? -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 08:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Gtoffoletto, I agree that we should try to keep this page from duplicating Coronavirus disease 2019, but I'm not sure it's quite as simple as just transclusing the intro to that page and calling it a day. Some aspects of the disease, like transmission, are quite relevant to understanding it as a pandemic. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 08:47, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Sdkb yeah that approach may be a bit too brutal... but the idea is to keep a brief section after the lead that introduces the main points regarding the virus per se (e.g. virus, transmission, symptoms, prognosis) at a very high level with a link to the full article. I was proposing the lead of the COVID-19 article simply because it already touches most of those topics. The article can then proceed discussing the pandemic alone. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 09:01, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Media has been very nice about our coverage.....only point that has come up a few times in the media about our coverage is that we have 3 articles with basically the same lead.--Moxy 🍁 15:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

@Moxy: agree this is the problem. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 09:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Gtoffoletto: I agree that this article should focus more on the pandemic rather than on the characteristics of the virus it describes. I think the question we should be asking ourselves is "how much do we want to emphasise the danger of the virus?" If it's highly imperative that we do so, we could add a parenthetical thought after the wikilink to Coronavirus disease 2019, something to the effect of a highly infectious virus that has killed over 1,000,000 people. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Detailed Proposal

I think we have an initial consensus that this is a problem. Here is a more detailed proposal to fix it. I would keep a brief summary of the virus characteristics in the article. Probably in the section of the article titled: "Cause". I would cut much of the current lead except the first paragraph. Of the article content I would trim the parts relating to the disease and condense the info they contain into a short summary in the cause section with a link to the main article.

Lead: only keep the first paragraph basically and then work from there.

1. Epidemiology
2. Transmission
3. Signs and symptoms
4. Cause
5. Diagnosis
6. Prevention
7. Mitigation
8. Treatment
9. History
10. National responses
11. International responses
12. Impact
13. Information dissemination
14. See also

-- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 09:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Forgot to ping @Sdkb: @Moxy: @Tenryuu: -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 15:20, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I think that's a generally solid proposal. I feel like the Mitigation section does make sense here. Prevention feels like what belongs in the COVID-19 article, and Mitigation is what belongs here. The former referring to how individuals avoid infection, and the latter how governments and society limit the effects and spread. I think it's analogous to epidemiology and transmission, the former is population based, the latter individual. But yes, this article should focus on the population-level effects. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I support Bakkster Man's idea after taking a look at the (albeit smaller) article HIV/AIDS in the United States. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Totally agree Bakkster Man. I have corrected above. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 22:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

• Could you put together a sandbox version of the article? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:12, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Sandbox Proposal

User:Gtoffoletto/COVID-19 pandemic sandbox. It was still huge so I ended up also cutting the "Cause" section as I realised that the lead already introduced the virus and the disease. We can reintroduce it if necessary but I think the page is already way too long as is. I only trimmed. No editing except a little bit in the lead. And I placed the history section first. Thoughts? Sdkb Moxy Tenryuu Bakkster Man -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 00:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

This would be a really drastic change, and I think we need to use a bit more of a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer. I could support there being less information about transmission/symptoms/diagnosis/prevention/treatment, but just cutting out those sections entirely is too much. A lot of information in them pertains to the pandemic, not just the disease—for instance, for the diagnosis section, efforts to improve testing are inherently related to the battle to control the spread of the pandemic, and thus fit within this page's scope.

One thing that I think would be helpful (albeit not sufficient) in addressing this issue would be to add a line to this page's editnotice along the lines of This page should contain only a broad overview of the most important aspects of the pandemic. More detailed information should be added at other pages (such as Coronavirus disease 2019 for medical details). Let me know if that would be desirable, and I can add it if there's consensus. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Sdkb I think we need some drastic restructure of the article. I think it's overstepping its boundaries significantly now and we need to trim it. Consider none of the material being removed should be "lost". Most of it is already in the other articles and we can double check that.

• COVID-19 -> the disease. Effects on individuals
• COVID-19 Pandemic -> History and progress of the pandemic with global response. Effects on society/the world/countries

The separation needs to be clear. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 00:15, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I guess part of the question is whether the two articles are parallel, analogous to the relationship between History of Asia and History of Africa, or whether COVID-19 is in some sense a subtopic of COVID-19 pandemic, analogous to the relationship between History of East Asia and History of Asia (where the latter justifiably contains a lot of parts of the former). I've generally thought about the disease as an element of the pandemic and thus in some sense a subtopic, but it sounds like you view them as more parallel. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:34, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes I think they are parallel. There should be a clear distinction between the two topics of we end up duplicating everything.

 Later. Will give the proposed rewrite a look tomorrow. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:13, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Had a quick glance at it and since most of it is just excision and some rearrangement, I only have a few thoughts:

• Can we switch the History and Epidemiology sections so that the latter remains up top? It still contains the sidebar link that leads to {{COVID-19 pandemic data}} which is important information.
• Can we add a {{For}} hatnote to the top? I feel like we had it before in the article and I can't be bothered to go through the page's history to look for it, but with the proposed excision of content I think it should be made as clear as possible that this page focuses primarily on the disease's spread, its repercussions, and our response. Virological information on it such as transmission and symptoms can be found at Coronavirus disease 2019. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 13:35, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: Absolutely we should add {{For}} at the top so that the page boundaries are very clear. Added it to the sandbox. Thoughts? Edit it yourself if you have any proposal. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 19:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Just a courtesy ping for Gtoffoletto to let him know that I swapped out {{For}} for {{About}}. Think it should decently separate the descriptors for each different page. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:01, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I think this is a great look for the article, and keeps it focused overall without a ton of duplication. I don't personally like History before Epidemiology, but both the 1918 and 2009 flu pandemic articles are structured that way so I won't argue against it. Coupled with the suggestions below to trim duplication between the Background and History sections, we'd have the article fighting fit and better maintainable. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:11, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I would re-apply the proposed cuts to the current version of the article so that any additional edit that happened in the meantime is not lost. Regarding Epi after History: I think it makes more sense that way in theory. But the current content may not be ideal. How about we move forward with the current proposal and then we move continue from there?

I'll tag users discussing similar duplication problems below to hear their input as well before proceeding. Gerald Waldo Luis Ovinus Real -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 19:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree that this separation is helpful + avoiding the "identical triplet" leads. Adding a For hatnote is a great idea. Perhaps we should also place, in {{Current COVID-19 Project Consensus}}, a reminder about the division between pandemic, virus and disease. Ovinus (talk) 20:14, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Consensus

I think we have consensus here. We have at least 5 users in favour and none against. I will proceed with the edit this weekend unless someone objects. I would also like to add a point to the {{Current COVID-19 Project Consensus}} list to clarify the division between the different pages once and for all per Ovinus Real's proposal. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:19, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Consensus summary: COVID-19 Pandemic is about the worldwide spread of and responses to COVID-19 (impact on populations). For detailed information about the disease, see Coronavirus disease 2019 (impact on individuals). For the virus that causes the disease, see Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:25, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose the current sandbox proposal. As I said above, while I agree with the general thrust of reducing the amount of information in this article that pertains mainly to the disease, the current sandboxed proposal takes a massive sledgehammer to this page, cutting out a ton that pertains to the pandemic, not just the disease. You're proposing cutting out lines like Authorities worldwide have responded by implementing travel restrictions, lockdowns, workplace hazard controls, and facility closures. Many places have also worked to increase testing capacity and trace contacts of the infected. from the lead, and the entire section on a vaccine, which is fully about its development within the context of the pandemic. I'm sure I would find additional examples if I looked more thoroughly. I also have concerns, on a public health level, about removing entirely information like the fact that ventilation can reduce transmission—we can reduce the amount of that information here, perhaps transcluding high-level summaries from other pages, without eliminating it entirely.

On a procedural level, I do not think the level of discussion here is sufficient to enact the deletion. We're talking about removing hundreds of thousands of bytes from a page that hundreds of contributors have worked to build over months, and we owe it to them to do so with greater care than has been shown in the sandbox proposal. We've had RfCs before over single sentences on this page, so one is certainly called for before implementing a change of this magnitude. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:18, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I see two arguments here. One is WP:HARDWORK, which isn't sufficient on its own to keep the information here. At a minimum, I think it's noteworthy that this is as much or more consensus than the much-debated misinformation visual you found strong enough to call status quo, and think it should be recognized that this process has been gone about in a quite open and transparent manner. If you think others will disagree with this change, I suggest you invite them to participate in the discussion.

The other is that we may not be doing well enough to WP:PRESERVE information that might not be covered in the other articles. On this, I think there's room to discuss and ensure we capture any information appropriate to this page but not another. I hope you'll help WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM to avoid these situations, rather than putting the brakes on the entire revision. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

To be more specific, which of those "thousands of bytes" that were removed are in other articles we can (and should) link to instead, and which are pandemic-specific information to keep in this article? Bakkster Man (talk) 15:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Bakkster Man. Sdkb I don't have any "fear of losing content" (FOMO? :-) ) here as this is mostly duplicated content and of lesser quality than what we have in the more appropriate pages. The information is not lost and we can always preserve/move it in the other pages if we see something worth keeping that will be lost. I think this is actually an argument in favour of the change: we should act to avoid countless wasted hours spent maintaining duplicated pages and we can always keep what we like from this page in the others. Nothing will be lost.

Did our replies change your mind? At the moment you seem to be the only opposing voice. This discussion has been here for a while and I've pinged the COVID-19 project twice to ensure everybody has a chance to see this. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 18:37, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Your replies did not change my mind because my objection was not to the idea of reducing duplicated medical content (anyone who knows my editing history knows that bad duplication is my single top pet peeve), but rather to the overly blunt implementation, and the sandbox draft has not changed. (And Bakkster Man, it's generally considered bad practice to criticize those volunteering their time to review a proposal for not volunteering even more of their time to also overhaul said proposal.)

Posting on WT:19 a second time is unlikely to do much as fewer people seem to monitor that page than this one, and most will have already seen the previous notice. If any are around, it might be helpful at the very least to hear from some past regulars on this page like Doc James, RealFakeKim, and Ozzie10aaaa. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:27, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

My apologies if I came across as insisting you needed to make the proposed changes. I meant more that if your concerns of removal non-duplicate information were remedied (by yourself or anyone else involved in this rewrite) that I hoped you wouldn't object if some of the information you thought was appropriate to duplicate didn't make the final cut (especially if the smaller size helps maintenance, even if it starts out imperfect. Let us fix the issues you pointed out, and if we can find other input all the better. Or perhaps you're just looking for a formal RfC once we're content with the sandbox version, at which point I refer back to the rushed discussion of the misinformation visual aid (added with the same 5-1 vote - but over 3 days, versus this discussion's 5 days to propose a sandbox followed by 9 days of review of the sandbox itself) and suggest we're certainly not out of line. So let's fix the actual loss of information that's not in other articles (per policy), see if we get more feedback, and then move forward if the only outstanding issues are a minority preference. Bakkster Man (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal of information about the virus as this is the main Wikipedia page people go to for information and the information is relevant to how the pandemic has developed. — RealFakeKimT 16:08, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@RealFakeKim: I don't think it should necessarily guide our editorial choices :-) but yes this page has the most page views. And that is an SEO issue (probably caused by the duplication itself). Currently wiki ranks first for "Covid-19 Pandemic" but very poorly for "Covid-19". I think that presenting users with such a complex and long page is a disservice to those readers and the duplicated leads and content is probably confusing them. They got here because they searched for the Pandemic. Not for the virus. We have an article already covering the virus. Let's send them there for information about it!

We can compare:

• Epidemiology of HIV/AIDS vs. COVID-19 Pandemic (virus/disease is not touched in the article or the lead)
• HIV/AIDS vs. COVID-19
• HIV vs. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2

The HIV pages are following a content structure in line with the sandbox proposal. We should follow that precedent and correct those articles. @Sdkb: I pinged several active editors in addition to the project page twice. At the moment we have 2 votes users against and 5 which I think are in favour such as Tenryuu Moxy Bakkster Man Ovinus_Real (and myself obviously). -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 21:29, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Just a reminder that we don't do votes, but rather which stance has more compelling arguments. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 08:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: Edited accordingly. How do we progress from here? I don't see new users coming in. I would proceed at the moment given the discussion above and the strong AIDS/HIV precedent but I think other supporters should confirm this first. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 14:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support (initial proposer): I'll formally write why I would proceed with the current proposal. We have a strong precedent with the HIV/AIDS pages as discussed above [1] that we should follow. This initial proposal will remove most of the unnecessary duplication and set up a strong foundation going forward. We can then move on from there and we will always have the previous versions to refer to if we need to recover any information lost (nobody has pointed out any crucial info not already treated elsewhere that will be lost at the moment). The status quo is problematic. This will never be WP:PERFECT. Let's fix the problems and move on from there. -- {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 15:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose doesnt have the information that people want on the proposed page. Doesnt matter if its duplicated on other pages, many people clearly only hit this one. --144.130.152.1 (talk) 07:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Infobox Infections vs Suspected cases

@Sdkb, Bryangul2020, Titus III, MartinezMD, and Bakkster Man: These are not 'suspected cases' but rather 'infections' and that is the terminology used by WHO. See prior discussion here to which I did not respond (sidetracked by hospital stay). As reported by CNN: "Our current best estimates tell us that about 10% of the global population may have been infected by this virus," Dr. Mike Ryan, director of the WHO's Health Emergencies Programme, said at a WHO executive board meeting Monday.

Usage of 'infection' rather than 'suspected cases' comports with the distinction between Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR) and Case Fatality Ratio (IFR); the IFR is a new statistic adopted by the CDC in July: Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR): The number of individuals who die of the disease among all infected individuals (symptomatic and asymptomatic). This parameter is not necessarily equivalent to the number of reported deaths per reported case because many cases and deaths are never confirmed to be COVID-19 …. That report relies on Meyerowitz-Katz & Merone (2020): An important unknown during the COVID-19 pandemic has been the infection-fatality rate (IFR). This differs from the case-fatality rate (CFR) as an estimate of the number of deaths as a proportion of the total number of cases, including those who are mild and asymptomatic. While the CFR is extremely valuable for experts, IFR is increasingly being called for by policy-makers and the lay public as an estimate of the overall mortality from COVID-19.

Speaking of 'Suspected cases' is irrelevant and misleading for COVID–19 (and likewise will be for other pandemics with similar characteristics). 'Infections' is the proper metric. The structure of the infobox needs to allow for this as an optional field as I requested here. Humanengr (talk) 23:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Well they aren't proven, and it's an estimate, so suspected is the correct term. Now that can be changed to suspected infection as an alternative, but not simply infection for these reasons. MartinezMD (talk) 00:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@MartinezMD, Thx … I'm ok with using 'Suspected infections' for now until WHO (or other RS) clarifies. Humanengr (talk) 01:10, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@MartinezMD, Do you have authority to edit the template? Thx, Humanengr (talk) 11:57, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so. For sure it takes discussion on the infobox page. We can't change it on this end (well we can, but it won't show if it's not an approved parameter). MartinezMD (talk) 12:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@MartinezMD: I had put in a request here. It might help if you added your voice there w an update to comport w our agreement here. Thx, Humanengr (talk) 12:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Thx Bakkster Man for your cmt at the Infobox template talk page. @Sdkb, any thoughts on how to prod action over there? My request has been sitting there over a week. Humanengr (talk) 16:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Humanengr, this seems like a pretty medical question, and I try to avoid those since that's not my area of expertise (which is more the social/other aspects of the pandemic). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Any objections to my, in the meantime until the Infobox structure is changed, editing Suspected infections estimated in early October at c. 770 million[cite]? Humanengr (talk) 04:42, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

[moved from above] @MartinezMD: Revisiting ‘Suspected infections’ — that’s not how WHO states it; they just say ‘Infections’. What do you mean by ‘not proven’? I agree they are estimated. Humanengr (talk) 15:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly enough about it to make a recommendation. During my training and current work, we typically use "cases" (as in instance or occurrence) and not "infections" when talking about the numbers. I only feel strongly about the suspected part since the numbers are large-scale estimates. And by proven, I mean an infection being identified, as with a positive test result or even a clinical diagnosis, not just an inference based on extrapolation of other data. MartinezMD (talk) 20:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Thx. All ‘estimates’ are inferences from data. So ‘suspected’ is not needed for that aspect. Re we typically use "cases" (as in instance or occurrence) and not "infections" when talking about the numbers, that is exactly what WHO and CDC rectified with their adoption of IFR as a metric: 'Cases' is not informative for a pandemic where most 'infections' are mild or asymptomatic and not 'cases' as normally understood. Also, saying 'suspected infections' rather than 'infections' (as per WHO) would be WP:OR; phrased another way, the WHO statement overrides the experience of any one of us as well as the metrics used in prior pandemics. Humanengr (talk) 23:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

WHO said "may have", no? So it's not OR, and arguing it here won't change the infobox parameter; that's on another page. And "case" is a very well accepted term. See Clinical case definition. MartinezMD (talk) 00:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

How about if we set the infobox text, per the cite, as “About 10% of the global population may have been infected.”? (Re the infobox template page, I asked for multiple options to give us flexibility rather than having to make repeated requests; nobody has responded there as yet.) Humanengr (talk) 01:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

That seems be uncontroversial to me. MartinezMD (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Thx, done. Humanengr (talk) 03:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

The CNN story is a misquote or at least misinterpretation. 10% is not the best estimate. The point was that most studies showed less than 10% seroprevalence. Dr. Ryan explains in the transcript here: https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/covid-19-virtual-press-conference-transcript---12-october-2020 Eb.eric (talk) 19:14, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

concur w/ Eb.eric--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:28, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the transcript. This is a follow up to his initial statement. He did say 10% (per this transcript - "Last week Dr Ryan announced - it was last Monday - that 10% of the world's population might be infected by the COVID") then backtracks in this discussion giving a summary of "on average 10% or less". Many areas below 10% (implying very low) with other peaks much higher - 20/25%. We can revise our article accordingly. MartinezMD (talk) 22:09, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@MartinezMD: How would you propose revising? Re your Many areas below 10% (implying very low), more fully, Ryan said in many countries that seroprevalence is very low but again what you have to remember is some of those seroprevalance studies were done a number of months ago (implying higher now) Thx, Humanengr (talk) 00:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I was fine with "about 10%". The number is going to change upward as the spread continues, so I don't see the need to be more precise at this point anyway. MartinezMD (talk) 00:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Sdkb, Eb.eric, Ozzie10aaaa, MartinezMD, and Bakkster Man: It seems we have a disagreement. How shall we resolve re infobox? One possibility is to add something like (tentative) in view of the transcript’s We also have a series of unity studies which are longitudinal studies which are studying seroprevalance around the world or the number of people who have been infected much more systematically. … These are done various ways using various methodologies … [W]e're trying to get a more standardised approach to look at studies and be able to pool these results and combine these results is through what we call the unity studies. This is a series of six protocols that WHO has developed …to … better compare [countries]. Humanengr (talk) 00:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I think we have a few issues here. One is that the infobox is 'suspected cases', not 'infections'. The next is that no matter what number we pick, it will always be an estimate (same as for IFR, and many other metrics), especially during the pandemic (reliable numbers can take years). Third is that this specific value seems imprecise and somewhat vaguely communicated by the WHO (not for the first time). We may need to address each individually.

While I want the infobox wording change, I do think it's appropriate to use for unconfirmed infections (particularly given the note on the infobox). Broadly, I think we have to do the best with uncertain estimates, as without them we have nothing to write (WP:EWW gives some good things to think about). If we do include this infection number in the infobox, then we're down to how to phrase it to match the level of uncertainty. Bakkster Man (talk) 15:25, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bakkster Man, AP characterized it as roughly 1 in 10 people worldwide may have been infected by the coronavirus, i.e., 'roughly' rather than 'about'. So maybe we could say phrase it as they did?? Humanengr (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

That's my first thought. Mirror the WHO wording, which itself includes two 'weasel words' indicating limited certainty, and we'll update it when better numbers come out. It's not supposed to be our job to second guess the experts, unless we can point to another similarly credible source to discount it. Bakkster Man (talk) 18:13, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bakkster Man, the ‘weasel’ words in Our current best estimates tell us that about 10% of the global population may have been infected by this virus are ‘about’ and ‘may’ … correct? Humanengr (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd consider "current best estimates" added uncertainty as well, though not technically 'weasel words'. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Eb.eric and Ozzie10aaaa: The CNN story is not a misquote or misinterpretation. It's what Ryan said on 10/5: "Our current best estimates tell us that about 10% of the global population may have been infected by this virus." This was also reported by AP: The head of emergencies at the World Health Organization said Monday the agency’s “best estimates” indicate roughly 1 in 10 people worldwide may have been infected by the coronavirus …. Ryan did not elaborate on the estimate. Dr. Margaret Harris, a WHO spokeswoman, said it was based on an average of antibody studies conducted around the world. At the 10/12 virtual conference Q&A you cited, Ryan didn't say most studies showed less than 10% seroprevalence; what he said was … many studies had demonstrated that 10% or less of people had been infected although that was very variable with some slum areas, high-risk populations like health workers being much higher. …  [I]f you look at some of these studies, on average 10% or less; in some it's much less and in some studies much more.. 'many' or 'some' ≠ 'most'. Ryan's 10/5 statement was a prepared remark; the 10/12 Q&A statements are less clear but, in any case, Ryan did not say 'most'. Humanengr (talk) 09:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Eb.eric and Ozzie10aaaa: I’ve posted a request for assistance here. Humanengr (talk) 15:56, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Eb.eric, Re your comment above, pls see my response. Humanengr (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

It is clear to me by the clarifications he made that they did not intend to say that their best estimate of infections is 10%. The intent was to show that heard immunity is low, and that worldwide infection rate may average "10% or less". I have little else to add beyond my interpretation of his clarification. I would suggest not putting this problematic data on the prominent infobox, but a more nuanced discussion per the WHO clarification could be appropriate in the article text. I think waiting for more reliable data, which the WHO stated is coming, would be more appropriate for the infobox. I feel like this discussion is not productive so you can proceed with whatever you think is reasonable, unless someone else wants to opine. Eb.eric (talk) 21:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Ryan clearly said "Our current best estimates tell us that about 10% of the global population may have been infected by this virus," on 10/5 to the WHO Executive Board when he was flanked by his boss, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus. As I indicated above, that was confirmed by AP, which I repeat here: The head of emergencies at the World Health Organization said Monday the agency’s “best estimates” indicate roughly 1 in 10 people worldwide may have been infected by the coronavirus …. Ryan did not elaborate on the estimate. Dr. Margaret Harris, a WHO spokeswoman, said it was based on an average of antibody studies conducted around the world. The Press conference Q&A did not, as I indicated above with quotes, 'clarify' the 10/5 statements by Ryan and Harris, certainly not as you indicate.

The phrasing I had inserted, About 10% of the global population may have been infected, is an appropriate summary for the infobox, where 'About' is Ryan's phrasing. I'm ok with AP's 'Roughly' if you prefer that.

Also, re Bryangul2020's reinsertion of (c. 770 million) (which is CNN's figure), i think that overstates the precision and should not be included. Humanengr (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

This is a tempest in a teapot. The phrasing "about 10%" or some equivalent is not unreasonable considering the infobox is a SUMMARY, the number itself is clearly an ESTIMATE, and the number WILL change in the not so distant future. A qualifier is not needed, and the interested reader can easily read the cite for more detail. We are editors; we can use some editorial judgement. MartinezMD (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Note that I had brought this over to DR. I’m waiting on an answer to my question in Discussion there. Humanengr (talk) 01:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

In view of the discussion above and at DR to-date evidencing support from 3 (Bakkster Man, MartinezMD, and myself), one (Ozzie10aaaa) offering at this point I might concede, and objections only from (Eb.eric) that I believe I have adequately addressed, it makes sense to reinsert About 10% of the global population may have been infected with cites to CNN and AP. Any further objections? Humanengr (talk) 04:41, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this, as well as with removing the circa value (as that could imply more than WHO actually said). Bakkster Man (talk) 14:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I reverted per above. Any further edits to this, pls discuss here. Thx, Humanengr (talk) 06:06, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The hedged language as it is now is better than the calculated CNN figure. I still do think when you consider the whole news conference the WHO is implying the infection rate is below 10% rather than approx. 10%. If you look at the IFR rate they have (0.6%) in the same news conference, and calculate number of deaths reported, that puts the figure less than 3%, though it could be higher if deaths not reported, but that does show a lower ballpark figure. However, I will concede you can keep the infobox wording it as it is now because even though the figure is likely a bad estimate, potentially misleading, not what the WHO intended to say, and not supported by verifiable evidence, it is vague enough to be meaningless anyways. Further this will all be moot when an actual estimate is published by the WHO. 192.197.205.213 (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

More on New Zealand's achievement on tackling this pandemic

Hi,

I was looking for New Zealand's famed success in tacking the COVID-19 pandemic, but it was as much absent as it was visible is many other websites.

If someone could have maybe a separate section on that, it would be much appreciated because I prefer wikipedia over other websites.

Thanks.125.237.147.35 (talk) 09:39, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi there. Unfortunately we can't include it here, because of the exceeding size and that New Zealand simply isn't so notable in terms of pandemic. We give an alternative by linking to COVID-19 pandemic in Oceania, which links to COVID-19 pandemic in New Zealand. GeraldWL 09:55, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I think it's worth a one-sentence mention in the Oceania section. I'll work it into COVID-19 pandemic in Oceania, where the section is being excerpted from. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Protection for wearer of masks

It seems there is now secondary literature from the CDC supporting the claim that face masks help protect the person wearing the mask from being infected. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html Is this now valid reference material to go into this article? [User:RexxS] had told me that I should wait for this kind of evidence, but I want to be sure that I'm interpretting it right.Chogg (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Start date

"Between 6 October 2019 and 11 December 2019[4]" I told you guys months ago this went back to Oct and didn't want to listen. Yes, this means you User:Doc James — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.3.138.230 (talk) 13:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2020

I would appreciate this chat removing the “+10,000,000” category in the “Total confirmed cases” map as there is no reason for it to be there unless multiple countries fit that category. 206.251.220.178 (talk) 15:42, 12 November 2020 (UTC)