Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 November 12

12 November 2020

Aleisha Allen

Aleisha Allen (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This not the orignal 2018 version's consensus of ths page I want overturned but the recent speedy deletion of the new version by User:TomStar81. So the story was I originally see this page for what was at the time a misused redirect to one of the actress' roles in school of rock. I examined the previous AFD dicussion from 2018 featured above and I believe I could make and article for this actress as she is notable enough to get an article as almost every actor has their on wikipedia page nowadays. So I nominate the redirect on RFD and I'm encouraged to create an article and I quote from User:Mazca and User:Shhhnotsoloud ", either to encourage article creation or to avoid giving the impression that we have useful coverage on something we don't. On a brief look I'm not completely sure there's enough good coverage about her to write an article that demonstrates notability, but that possibility should certainly be encouraged." –from Mazca ,"to encourage article creation, and because Search gives better results." –from Shhhnotsoloud, source: 1 The redirect is close on November 10 and on the day of I start to get to work doing my research, I'm up hours finding reliable sources on this actress and I find two .edu pages and two .org pages about the actress and pathology career which I mention in her personal life. Then not even a day later the page got tagged with not one but two, nomination tags. One by User:CuteMeow who later reverted the tag after I talked it over with them.2 and then a couple of hours later User:Noq places another speedy del tag on the page claiming it was under AFD G4 when it is not identical to its previous version from 2018. Section G4 specifically says "This applies to sufficiently identical copies, having any title, of a page deleted via its most recent deletion discussion." this isn't even the case and the deletion discussion is not recent being a 2 year old deletion discussion. I then attempted to contest the deletion but it was just ignored and deleted by User:TomStar81 in WP: IGNORINGATD-esque fashion.3 This actress also doesn't fail WP:NACTOR becasue she was a secondary character in Are We There Yet and appeared in 130 episodes in Blue's Clue's as a main character in the sidetable drawer. This speedy deletion was unjust and want this page restored. I won't mind finding more reliable citations for this page if needed. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 14:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse The consensus in the AfD was correctly assessed. You would need to come up with reliable, independent sources that hadn't been available to the participants in the discussion to show that the subject is indeed notable. (t · c) buidhe 14:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• @User:buidhe But this was a deletion dicussion from 2 years ago that I was not even involved in. I reffering to the recent unjust speedy del that claimed the more cited version I created was identical to the 2018 version And if you read my paragraph I said I found .edu sources and .org sources. Here are my sources: source 1, Source 2 and source 3. Sources 1 and 3 are sources citing her new proffession as a speech-language pathologist and it also supports that she went to pace university. Two org sources and one .edu source. I've also used a .gov source from the Library of Congress on this actress here Source 4. This article was just blindly speedy deleted and I hope you can changed your vote. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 14:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
  • None of these sources have significant, reliable, and independent coverage of the subject. (t · c) buidhe 14:46, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Overturn @User:buidhe, Did you actually look at the sources I provided before making a decison that they were not significant? How is a .edu source not reliable or significant? .edu sources are some of the most reliable top Website sources on the internet. And a .gov source also is not reliable? Come on. Your'e starting to sound a little WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. If a .edu source is not reliable I don't know what is. These were the sources I used when descrbing her personal life as a Pathologist. I used the .gov source to verify her place of birth and middle name. If you need sources on her acting career I have those as well. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 14:50, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment The sources you mention above are not WP:significant coverage. They would not be enough to overturn the result of an AFD. noq (talk) 16:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@User:Noq, Comment 2 These are, Let me explain why. On the article before it was deleted I used it to describe her personal life as a speech-language pathologist. She became a speech pathologist during her tenure from acting. And the .gov Library of congress source verifies her middle name and birth place. Those were just a couple of sources I used on the article. What sources of the person would be considered significant? I used other sources on the article verify certain movie performances. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 16:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I've read two of them. The first does not let me see it. Confirming DOB and middle name is not WP:Significant coverage and will not establish WP:notability. Being a speech language pathologist is not itself sufficient to be WP:notable. Nothing that I am seeing make me think the afd should be overridden. noq (talk) 17:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@User:Noq, Okay we know she not notable for her pathology career but those are definitely relaible sources when descrbing her personal life as that was a section on the article. But here's some sources on her acting career enough to support her career as an actress. Source 5, Source 6 news article supporting her role as a main cast member on Blue's clues and on the film School of Rock And a new york times article talking about her support cast role in Are We There yet Source 7. I just found another source EW confirming her appearances in movies and TV see Source 8. How many more sources do you need for her actress verfication? ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 17:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse Actress has no Oscar, Emmy, Tony, or Grammy awards for acting, now is she noted for having played a particularly famous role in film or on television. Her medical career shows no awards, prizes, or honors for MD related work. The last article version of the actress's entry prior to the original AFD nomination is located here (admin's eyes only, I'm afraid), and when the two versions are looked at the old one here and the new one from what was as I type this yesterday are not substantially different to negate CSD G4 criteria, nor does the new one clear A7 criteria. I know its not what you want to hear, but from where I sit the article's speedy deletion was correctly assessed and carried out. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@User:TomStar81, Your rationale behind speedy deleting the article is not justified. In the policy WP:NACTOR You have to pass one of those guidelines to have a page which she passes guideline one,"Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." Allen has had significant roles in movies and televison shows which I've already explained several times. Your talking about this actress like she was in the background of a obscure movie from the 50's. Just because said actress has not won a award does not mean her page should be just speedy deleted like that just because it was deleted per a non-recent dicussion. If that was the case why don't other child actors including her co-star Philip Daniel Bolden ,who has no citations or has not won any awards has an article? If your criteria was to apply to all Entertainer articles across wikipedia there would be way less article becasue a lot of Actors fit under those narrow standards. If these rules apply to this article they must apply to all the actor articles on wikipedia And this why I should have been able to see the previous version so I would know what to differentiate from it's 2018 counterpart. And since Your'e sticking with that A7 speedy deletion policy so much it says on the Credible claim of significance which is a extenstion of the A7,A9 and A11 criterion it says on the Pitfalls to avoid on number 3 "Therefore, a claim of significance need not pass any of the general or specialized notability guidelines, such as general notability guideline, music notability, or biography notability guideline." This means your criteria is wrong for it becasue she would not need to have won awards to have an article even though I mention on the article that she had been nominated three times for Young artist awards. Source 9. And on point 6 in the credible claim of signifcance it also says "Any statement which plausibly indicates that additional research (possibly offline, possibly in specialized sources) has a chance of demonstrating notability is a claim of significance." And I did hours on top of hours of research so I could have these sources. And this actress is notable for her role as "Lindsay" in Are We There yet and it's sequel and as "Alica" in School of Rock. It may be harder to find sources on the former actress becasue of her straying away from the limelight but just at least give me or another editor a second chance to create a well written sourced article that is not Identical to their previous incarnations. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 20:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@SomeBodyAnyBody05: I've gone ahead and nominated Philip Daniel Bolden for deletion as well, his AFD can be found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Philip Daniel Bolden, if you're interested. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:46, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

One other thing, too: You can argue from CSD A7 and its criteria, but unless you can also address the G4 criteria the A7 argument will be moot because of the fallback position here. Make sure you include arguements for overturning both, otherwise one foot never will get out of the grave and the article will fall back into the hole and end up resting in piece whether or not you wanted that to be the outcome. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@User:TomStar81, I myself want articles for most of the actors that don't fit your crtieria as long as you can find reliable ciatations like I did with the actress. So now that we dicussed the A7 issue what was the 2018 version like so I know what to improve or diffrentiate to not end up in that G4 loophole. Because that would be unproductive to the project with redlinks and needed articles. Because I would like to reach a consensus where we could have the ability to get better made article instead of having a no article is better use for wikipedia. And nobody but admins can't see the deleted version and that includes me becasue I'm not an admin. If I could see it I could adress the issue better.

I was also wondering if I could recieve a copy of the 2018 version so I could see what I would need to change so it would not fall under the principles for CSD G4 so I could set the foundation for the article without another speedy nomination tag. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Loren Culp

Loren Culp (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I believe the decision failed to give proper weight to arguments based on policy rather than arguments based on politics (WP:IDONTLIKEIT because he's a Republican in a deep blue state). As a major party candidate for governor of a state, this subject received substantial coverage of their biography, so a quality article could easily be written about them. Please check Google News to see how many sources are available. Jehochman ^Talk 13:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Overturn (for the avoidance of doubt) - I get it that the result was redirect, which in normal conditions is form of keep. But in this case the redirect was protected to prevent the article from being recreated and the closing admin said, Protected "Loren Culp": Edit-warring against AfD consensus. Anyone wishing to recreate this will need to challenge the AfD consensus at an appropriate venue and/or provide genuinely new evidence of notability, that should likely be run through a talk page discussion first. So here we are having that required discussion. Vandamond, thank you for all your work at XFD. To be clear, I do not think you have done anything ignoble. This decision just needs a broader review and more opinions to hopefully come to the correct conclusion. Why choose this venue rather than the article talk page? I want to generate new opinions and more opinions. This page gets more attention. Jehochman ^Talk 13:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Endorse Vanamonde correctly assessed the consensus in the discussion. Jehochman does not provide any new information or sources that were not available at the time of the discussion. I think that we should focus on giving Culp due coverage on the article about the election, rather than a standalone article, because he is basically known only for the one event. (t · c) buidhe 13:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  Did you check this link that I provided? [1]. If none of that is new, then the decision was clearly wrong at the time it was made. Please consider WP:BIO1E, If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate. This is not a low profile person so WP:BLP1E does not apply. Jehochman ^Talk 14:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I stand by my closure. The notability of political candidates has always been a thorny issue, but in this case the arguments that a) coverage independent of the election didn't exist and b) the total volume of coverage was insufficient to overcome BLP1E, were persuasive. It's been a month since the AfD was closed: if more coverage has been found since, that's not an argument to overturn the AfD, but to recreate the article (which is not something I'd personally recommend as yet). Vanamonde (Talk) 15:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

We can't recreate the article, as far as I know, because you protected the redirect. I think the sheer volume of news coverage, now that the election has concluded provides more than enough material to write an article. In addition, I believe your interpretation is WP:BLP1E is flat out wrong. BLP1E does not say all biographies deriving coverage from one event are non-notable. There is a test, specifically one that asks whether the subject is "low profile" and likely to remain low profile. This subject ran for governor of a state the size and population of many countries. He was not a minor party candidate. He represented a major party and received 1.7 million votes. This is not a low profile person. Jehochman ^Talk 16:07, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

A protected redirect does not make it impossible to recreate an article. Please familiarize yourself with our WP:DRAFT process, which allows you to work on proposed articles for review. Bearcat (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I am listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants, so I am kind of aware of that. However, with a protected redirect, that's a strong disincentive. I would be satisfied if the protection were removed and then we let editing take its natural course. Jehochman ^Talk 22:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Endorse. Like it or not, we have an established consensus that candidates for political office are not "inherently" or enduringly notable just for being candidates per se — to qualify for an article without having to hold a notable office, a candidate must either (a) demonstrate that he was already notable enough for other reasons (e.g. having already held a different lower but notable political office, such as serving in the state legislature) that he would already have gotten an article anyway, or (b) he has a credible claim to being a special case of significantly greater notability than the norm, such that even though he lost the election he would still pass the ten year test for enduring significance. The fact that some campaign coverage exists is not, in and of itself, enough to get a candidate over the notability bar just for being a candidate, because every candidate can always show evidence that campaign coverage existed — so if the existence of campaign coverage were enough to exempt an unelected candidate from having to pass NPOL, then NPOL itself would be completely meaningless, because no candidate ever fails to have coverage and thus nobody would ever actually have to pass NPOL at all anymore. And exactly zero people said anything whatsoever in the AFD discussion about how he should be deleted just because he's a Republican in a blue state — so asserting that such an argument should have been dismissed is a moot point, given that nobody made that argument in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 17:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

  I think you are mis-stating the consensus. I agree with your position with regard to local officials such as mayors. Here we are considering a major party candidate for Governor of Washington State. This person garnered 1.7 million votes and there are dozens and dozens of news articles about them. Jehochman ^Talk 22:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)