Talk:List of Christmas carols

Frosty The Snowman?

Just noticed you have rudolph and santa claus is coming to town.. Maybe consider adding frosty as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.187.188 (talk) 04:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 Not done -- Today, none of these three are on the list. Consider some other WP pages listed below. -- AstroU (talk) 20:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Old discussion

Can someone with the appropriate permissions please change the spelling of the word 'epithany' in the 'Carol of the Bells' entry to the correct spelling 'epiphany'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hjarrot2 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Neither word is there now. -- AstroU (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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The differences between Christmas songs and Christmas carols needs to be clearly defined somewhere (see Talk:Christmas carol). -R. fiend 03:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is it relevant in Anglo-saxon world to make a difference between the canticles and the other songs ? In French wikipedia, the list shows three categories : the hymns, the songs with christian reference (often traditional or folk songs) and the non-religious songs. Gwalarn 19:14, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) (a non-Anglo-Saxon contributor!)

What about Ave maria and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring? Kingturtle 02:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither of those is specifically tied to Christmas.Rockhopper10r 05:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

But I only hear them at christmas time, and they are often included in christmas celebrations. Kingturtle 18:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

"Ave Maria" (mostly the Schubert or Bach/Gounod versions) is heard throughout the year in Roman Catholic and, sometimes, Anglican circles on Marian feasts, as well as weddings and funerals, as well as as a concert piece. Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is often performed during Advent, but it is used as a hymn or anthem throughout the year. Neither piece makes any specific reference to Christmas. Rockhopper10r 21:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say carols and songs are different, with some overlap, and should be treated as that....though they can be put into the same article 74.108.10.78 22:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cat and The Mouse Carol?

I know I have heard a Chirstmas song or carol involving a cat and a mouse. It has stuck with me ever since I heard it that one time on the radio. Recently I've been thinking about it and doing a little web searching. It seems there is a carol called "The Cat and The Mouse Carol", but I have not been able to confirm if it is the same one that I remember or anything else about it.

If anyone knows anything about this carol, it should probably be added to the list. Lilwik 03:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the one that goes "Said the cat to the mouse/In their dark little house/In a stable so long ago/"I am wondering why/That bright star in the sky/Is shining upon us down below"" or something like that? I have it in a book, but probably not with enough extra facts. Just the lyrics and tune, which don't really belong here. Skittle 13:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That might be the carol which I have found referenced on the web as "The Cat and The Mouse Carol," but it is not the Christmas song that I remember. In that case there are two such songs and they both should be discovered somehow. Even though it was years ago when I heard the song, I know that it was rather slow and could not possibly have had the short lines and snappy rhymes that you quote.Lilwik 05:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So we have established that :-) What else do you remember about your song? Any words/phrases? Sort of music? Skittle 23:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it was a rather somber song. I can't remember any lyrics, unfortunately, but I have a feeling that it was in the same theme as The Little Match Girl, but it was a cat and a mouse in the cold, setting aside their classic differences on Christmas. Lilwik 08:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Might it be the one described here? I'll post what it says on your talk page, since I'm accessing it from Google's cache and it might not be there much longer, but it seems too long to post here. Skittle 17:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what that link is referring to, but I finally managed to find the song on my own. This is the song I vaguely remembered: The Cat Carol. I guess The Cat and The Mouse Carol is something else. I will leave it to others to judge of it really qualifies as a Christmas carol, because despite its title is could be merely a Christmas song. It has a copyright that is barely 10 years old, 1993. Lilwik 00:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the one I found at that link. I also posted the relevant bit onto your user page, which I meant to put on your talk page. 17:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The song is in reference to a carol written by British Singer and songwriter Ted Hutchinson . It was recently performed by David Archuleta and The Mormon Tabernacle Choir and was released on the Christmas CD following the concert ( Glad Christmas Tidings 2011). This is the Mormon Tabernacle Choir link to the song: The Carol is about a Cat and a Mouse in the Manger when Christ was born. The David Archuleta version is the only one I have been able to find. Nehimomma (talk) 07:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Lyrics

Lyrics in the public domain must be moved to Wikisource s:Category:Christmas_carols --Altermike 15:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite surprised... "Little Christmas Tree" (Nat King Cole) is not in the Non-Religious Christmas Songs list... 124.106.148.10 15:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Performed by...

Do we really need the unending list of artists who performed these carols? I am considering removing the performed by sections. Kingturtle (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

 Done -- Not there now, AstroU (talk) 21:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

However, the second table column lists "Composer/Lyricist". -- AstroU (talk) 21:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Religious vs. Non-Religious

Some of the carols listed as religious are actually non-religious. For example, Twelve Days of Christmas and Deck the Halls may be very traditional, but aren't religious. I suggest moving them to the non-religious category, or creating a new category for them.

I don't know about Deck the Halls, but I do know that Twelve Days of Christmas is very religious as each day corresponds to a different religious element. [1] [2] --74.137.225.227 (talk) 19:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Snopes.com [3] has a very good article about the alleged hidden meanings of the lyrics of "The Twelve Days of Christmas". It is not a religious song. Rockhopper10r (talk) 05:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

"I checked Snopes, my research is done." A Snopes "researcher's" gleanings from blogs he read after an exhaustive Google search isn't my idea of a reliable source. Philip72 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Who on earth wrote "Deck the Halls (a pagan Yuletide drinking song)" in the article? What utter nonsense. Deck the Halls English lyrics were written by the Scottish musician Thomas Oliphant in 1862, and in Welsh by John Jones the same year. The melody is older, first found in a musical manuscript by Welsh harpist John Parry dating back to the 1700s. So I'm deleting that nonsense, and if someone puts it back they better have a reliable cite that contradicts everything else . Philip72 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Split proposal

This article is about Christmas carols, not about Non-Religious Christmas Songs. The latter should be put into List of non-religious Christmas songs. Kingturtle (talk) 03:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Non-Christmas Christmas songs

Several of the songs here, though often performed at concerts around Christmas time, are not "Christmas" songs but for that association. "Jingle Bells" and "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!" come immediately to my mind, but I'm sure there are others. Unless there is some discussion to the contrary and sound reasoning, I'm going to yank them. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

These songs should be moved to another article. How about List of non-Christmas winter songs or something like that? Kingturtle (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

As the article is named List of Christmas carols, the inclusion of any songs at all, religious or secular, which are not actually Christmas carols per se should be removed to another [new] article, for instance List of Christmas songs, which should have a section Chrismas Carols which links to List of Christmas carols. Clearly such compositions as Jingle-bells, together with the ubiquitous We wish you a Merry Christmas (although often sung by visiting 'carol-singers' (albeit only a quick round of the chorus followed by a hand outstretched in expectation of a donation for the half-hearted effort before moving on to the next house to repeat the process, and so on) are not, strictly speaking, carols. And We Three Kings is an Epiphany carol, and should also be excluded, as should Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel which is an Advent hymn. --JohnArmagh (talk) 20:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, I have no problem removing non-Christmas songs, but they should be placed in another article. The non Christmas seasonal songs have a great deal of value to our culture. Kingturtle (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and create it. They do not belong here. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I already supported your claim that they don't belong here. :) I am trying to come up with a title for the non-Christmas song article, and I am asking for a little help brainstorming. List of non-Christmas winter songs? List of non-Christmas Christmas songs? Kingturtle (talk) 17:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the bigger problems will be a) defining the topic in an encyclopedic manner and b) finding sources that explicitly state that, say, "Let it snow,..." is not a Christmas song but is often played at Christmas time (not winter, Chistmas time) and c) weeding out the provincialism (I doubt "Sleigh Ride", "Frosty..." and such get much play in Australia's Spring (early December). As such, I think brainstorming for a title is premature. The title should be based on the content in this case, so we need to solidify the content first. I'd suggest starting a User Page/Sandbox to build this in, THEN work on the title. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, what source are you using that states "Let it snow,..." is not a Christmas song? Kingturtle (talk) 00:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

You have that backwards. I am disputing that it is a Christmas song. If you wish to re-add it to the article, feel free to -- provided you can cite a reliable source stating that it is a Christmas carol. If I were adding it to an article titled "Songs that are not Christmas songs", I would need a source. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

But there aren't any sources on List of Christmas carols stating that any of the songs listed are Christmas carols. Kingturtle (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thus you may feel free to remove any you wish to dispute. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

List of secular songs associated with Christmas --JohnArmagh (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Kingturtle (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Good luck finding sources! Sounds like a nice project for me to stay out of... - SummerPhD (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You know, I don't like the WP:OR jab when none of the entries that you have on List of Christmas carols have any citations from third parties saying they are indeed Christmas carols. Good luck finding sources :) Kingturtle (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Three quick point:

1) I don't have any entries on this article or anywhere else. In fact, on this article all I've done is remove entries.

2) There is, IMO, some justification for calling a song that includes the word "Christmas" and/or lyrics about the events believed to have occurred a "Christmas song". Saying "Sleigh Ride" is a Christmas song, though, seems to amount to something along the lines of "Gee, it's mostly played in December...".

3) Please don't interpret my comments as "jabs" at you. I have no problem with you (that I am aware of...). I do, however, think you're heading down a deadend alley. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

And, again, feel free to remove any songs you wish to dispute. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it felt like a jab. But thank you for your explanation. I understand.

Now about this article, I think List of non-religious Christmas songs and List of secular songs associated with Christmas should be their own articles. Non-religious Christmas songs aren't carols and shouldn't be on this article. I am not so worried about finding sources.

Also, I think it is ok to say who first recorded it, but I think the "Also recorded by" part needs to be removed or chopped generously. Kingturtle (talk) 20:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Restructuring

Since the removal of the non-carols and Non-Christmas Christmas songs (should I create a redirect? ;) ), I've started a restructure. With all of the various Language X sections, the original portion seemed to be kind of hanging. So, I've started sorting them by language.

A number of the English songs (such as "Bring a Torch...") were listed in that section, but as "Language X traditional". Clearly, "Bring a Torch..." is an English translation, using the same/similar music as the original. I've made some of the changes to that effect.

Bolding the songs was unique to the English section. IMO, it also made it hard to read. I've removed the bolding.

There are still a number of questionable inclusions. For example, does Trans Siberian Orchestra's "Christmas Canon" have lyrics? If so, are they religious? If not (no lyrics or secular lyrics), is this a carol?

Comments are welcome. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. I've made a few format changes too. Kingturtle (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, there's a lot more to do. I'll peck at it every now and again. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

New format idea

Turning it into a chart would make the list more streamlined and easier to read. How about this format?

Carol	Composer	Lyricist	Year published	Notes
"Angels from the Realms of Glory"		James Montgomery	1816
"Angels We Have Heard on High"	traditional hymn "Gloria"	English translation by James Chadwick	1862	based on French traditional carol "Les Anges dans nos Campagnes"

Ideas? Comments? Kingturtle (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of plapping it all in a chart, but I have some reservations. There's a whole lot of info that will end up jammed in the "Notes" section: original title in another language, translator, notable recordings, etc. The Composer/Lyricist dicotomy leaves solo compositions as either listing one name in both or, again, jamming it into the "Notes" section. Part of the problem, IMO, is that the legacy of this article is such that whomever wandered along added whatever they felt like in whatever format they happened to use. We have nothing established to determine what songs to include and what info to include about them. If Michael W. Smith puts out an album's worth of new Christmas songs, do we inevitably add them? Why or why not?

Notability criteria do not specifically apply to individual entries on a list like this, so we get to set our own. Basically, I would propose keeping the info in this article to a minimum: Title (with original title in another language, if applicable); Written by; Date and maybe notable recording. What of the other information? Well, that would wrap in with my other suggestion (and this is pretty major...) let's limit the article specifically to songs with Wikipedia articles. That would knock the list down to about 90 or so (based on current links, some links are probably missing, but some songs don't belong). The rest? Well, we don't have any evidence that they exist, are Christmas carols and are notable in any way. Some schmoe at Podunk First Presbyterian writes a song one year, is that worth including? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Composer/Lyricist part could just be one column. And the notes don't have to be extensive. This article is just a list and more information can be put on the actual article of the carol. Kingturtle (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

How about like this? Kingturtle (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Carol	Composer /Lyricist	Year published	Notes
"Angels from the Realms of Glory"	Lyrics by James Montgomery	1816
"Angels We Have Heard on High"	traditional hymn "Gloria"; English translation by James Chadwick	1862	based on French traditional carol "Les Anges dans nos Campagnes"

Works for me! I'm going to put up an "inuse" tag for a minute right now and see how many additional songs have articles that aren't currently linked. Any thoughts on an inclusion standard for this article? - SummerPhD (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, a sea of red. I also made some formatting corrections and fixed some clumsy English. Now let's see what we have. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking good. When you're done, I'll create some more charts. Kingturtle (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, so much for that. A lot of work for not much gain... We went from 86 linked songs to 98 linked songs. Any way, any thoughts on chopping this bad boy down to size? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone recently posted that this formatting "looked ridiculous" and was entirely anglo-centric. I just placed some French titles on there, and I have to agree that I think there may be a better solution. What if we made a sortable table (as suggested by above mentioned poster) with (1) English title (or translated into English - this is the English wikipedia obviously) (2) original language title (when applicable), then the remaining columns of composer, date, and notes? Then ppl could sort it as they saw fit (by title, origin, date, etc.) and we'd have one substantial table. Thoughts? Portia1780 (talk) 23:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done So now the entire article in not Anglo-centric, since the article is broken down by country/language. Works great for me. -- AstroU (talk) 19:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Notability criteria

As there has been no discussion on this issue, I'm boldly assuming that my proposal is acceptable. Barring further discussion, songs are not notable enough for inclusion in this article unless they have individual articles. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Notability on lists such as this is always difficult to gauge. I don't think every notable carol deserves its own article, especially non-English language carols, but I do think some of those less notable carols deserve a place on this list of Christmas carols. Maybe the notability criteria should be based on something else, such as it has been performed live or on a recording by a notable chorus or chamber choir. Kingturtle (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it's tough to guage. In general, the problems seem to come when the criteria are vague.

For openers, I think we can agree that any carol with an article is notable enough for this list.

From your suggestions, my qualms would be 1) defining a notable choir (unless we fall back on choirs with articles) and 2) the possibility of a choir performing as a one-off an otherwise non-notable carol or recording an entire album of carols that includes some otherwise ignored ones. While I don't have a specific example in mind, I'm thinking along the lines of a Michael W. Smith album. Every now and again, a notable choir will record and or perform with a pop artist. Suppose Smith records an album of all-new Christmas songs. Given who he is, they're likely to be religious. If an otherwise notable choir joins in on the album or for a show or two, does that make even the most forgettable, non-notable song on that album a "notable Christmas carol" to be included with "Silent Night" and "Adeste Fideles"? Seems a rather low bar, to me. The WP:GNC seem broad enough to cover what I would expect here, especially if we follow the wiggle room provided by WP:MUSIC#SONGS: "Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable." Modify that to limit it to carols and I think we have a winner, noting, of course, that we don't need sufficient material about the song to actually write a full article about it. Thoughts? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, another point. What makes a song a carol? Is every religious Christmas song a carol? Does Christmas Day (Michael W. Smith song) make the grade? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

A carol has Jesus' birth as part of the subject matter, no? Kingturtle (talk) 19:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm betting I can find a song from South Park that fits that definition... I think we need something a bit more concrete. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a list of Christmas Carols; not a list of notable Christmas Carols. All Carols should be included. We should take a loose definition of carol as being any song that glorifies Jesus Christ's birth. Any song that glorifies Jesus Christ's birth should be counted as worthy of inclusion in this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Imagine the article List of people from New York City... Please see Wikipedia:List#List_content. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Extra carols to add to the list

• Adeste Fidelis
• Angel Gabriel, The
• As With Gladness, Men of Old
• Break Forth, O Beauteous Heavenly Light
• Brightest and Best of the Sons of the Morning
• Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus
• Coventry Carol
• First Noel, The
• Gloucestershire Wassail
• How Brightly Shines the Morning Star
• I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In
• It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
• Joseph Dearest, Joseph Mine
• My Dancing Day
• O Come All Ye Faithful (English)
• O Come, O Come Emmanuel
• O Little Town of Bethlehem
• On This Day Earth Shall Ring
• Prepare the Way, O Zion
• Quem Pastores
• Rudolf The Red Nosed Raindeer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahajoanne1 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
• Sleepers, Wake!
• Song of the Crib
• Sussex Carol
• Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day
• Truth From Above, The
• Watchman, Tell Us of the Night
• We Three Kings of Orient
• We Wish You a Merry Christmas
• Winter's Snow

The music is here: [4]http://www.christmas-carol-music.org/Index_of_Titles.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 (talk) 00:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's the problem:Adeste Fidelis, The Angel Gabriel, As With Gladness, Men of Old, Break Forth, O Beauteous Heavenly Light, Brightest and Best of the Sons of the Morning, Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus, Coventry Carol, The First Noel, Gloucestershire Wassail, How Brightly Shines the Morning Star, I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In, It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, Joseph Dearest, Joseph Mine, My Dancing Day, O Come All Ye Faithful, O Come, O Come Emmanuel, O Little Town of Bethlehem, On This Day Earth Shall Ring, Prepare the Way, O Zion, Quem Pastores, Sleepers, Wake!, Song of the Crib, Sussex Carol, Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day, The Truth From Above, Watchman, Tell Us of the Night, We Three Kings of Orient, We Wish You a Merry Christmas, Winter's Snow.

The redlinks have no evendence of notability. The blue links are all already there, except for Sleepers, Wake!, which is actually a link to an unrelated book. This leads us back to the question above. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I_Saw_3_Ships has been recorded by some notable people.

I have to say the current structure looks ridiculous as the only substantial list is the "English" carols one, even though many of them are actually translations from other languages where they are not listed (because they already appear on the "English" list?). If you split per language, you'd expect it to be by language of origin, otherwise it results in this current misleading Anglo-centric selection bias. One possible solution is to allow duplicate entries (i.e., include the translated English carols to their language of origin list). Another would be to reformat as a single table with sortable fields including the language of origin.--70.80.234.196 (talk) 04:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Surely, you're joking, SummerPhD. Just because something is present in or missing from Wikipedia has no bearing on its notability or lack thereof. Having something show up with a red link is merely evidence that you were too lazy to search diligently, that you were raised in a culturally deprived environment, or that the songs may be known by a variety of titles. I took the liberty of adding the word "Are" to "We Three Kings of Orient", and, presto, a match appeared. How many more are there like that? —Quicksilver^{T @} 21:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

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One of my favorite Christmas carol numbers is: “This Little Babe” (Benjamin Britten (A Ceremony of Carols)) Date=February 20, 2012 (1:36min) Maîtrise de Radio France. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Tux6tixN0

AstroU (talk) 03:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

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Our Relief Society put together 24 carol/story/scripture (sets) to be used like an Advent calendar: (Half are Primary songs, such as 1. “Nativity Song” and 2. “Once Within a Lowly Stable”) 3. O Little Town of Bethlehem; 5. It Came Upon The Midnight Clear; 7. O Come All Ye Faithful; 9. Joy to the World; 11. O Holy Night; 13. Away in a Manger; 14. The First Noel; 15. Angels We Have Heard On High; 17. Hark! The Herald Angels Sing; 21. With Wondering Awe; 23. What Child Is This? ... And for Christmas Eve, 24. “Silent Night”.

They are all on the list herein, except “With Wondering Awe” with text and music, Anon.

-- AstroU (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Added: "With Wondering Awe", the Wisemen saw... AstroU (talk) 21:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

---

Marys boy child

Mary's Boy Child and Mary's Little Boy Child both linked to the same article which was titled Mary's Boy Child, so I removed the line for Mary's Little Boy Child and added it in brackets in the line below. Cheers, JenLouise (talk) 09:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, the note about editing protection is from the end of 2008 and says it is only for 2 weeks - is it time to remove it? JenLouise (talk) 09:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Order of list

It seems unclear what the rationale is for organising the list and it needs to be stated in the intro. It looks at first that listing is according to original language of the words, but doesn't seem to follow that clearly. Many foreign language carols seem to be listed under English. Can we make it clearer?--Mervyn (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

 Done -- Now, broken down by language. -- AstroU (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@AstroU: Not to start another discussion, but since it is listed by language, why is American listed? It's not an language. American English is another form of English, but not American. Not sure why it's listed if it's listed by language. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 03:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Songs For Inclusion

I noticed song songs like "Where Are You, Christmas?" by Faith Hill of the "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" soundtrack, "Wonderful Christmas Time" by Paul McCartney and Wings, "Thank God It's Christmas" by Queen, and others are not the list. Would they be on another list. If so, where is that list? Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 19:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

For those that fit the criteria, there's List of Christmas hit singles. Also consider Category:Christmas songs. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 01:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Question about "Winter Wonderland"

Is "Winter Wonderland" really a Christmas carol? The article on Winter Wonderland describes the song as a "Christmas time pop classic" rather than a carol, and I do wonder whether it should be in this list. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It'd be pretty damned hard to argue that this is a Christmas carol. The song is neither about Christmas nor a carol. I'm removing it. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Christmas Lights removed

I removed Christmas Lights by Coldplay, because there's really no sense in which that's a Christmas carol rather than just a Christmas pop song. It belongs elsewhere. 86.183.77.237 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Auld Lang Syne

I have deleted the note stating that "Auld Lang Syne" "famously" appears at the end of It's A Wonderful Life. The idea that this is significant, let alone the most (or even a) notable feature of such a universally renowned song is misguided and parochial, betraying the writer's ignorance more than his knowledge.77.100.218.86 (talk) 13:08, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

True enough. More to the point, IMO, it isn't a Christmas carol. I've removed it. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

No article about the Rocking Carol?

This is a much desired suggestion by someone who's not as Wikipedia savvy as I'd like to be. I wasn't sure where exactly to offer this suggestion but this seemed like the most logical place I could find. Basically, if you go to the "English" section of songs on the article, then scroll down to "Rocking Carol", you will find there is no Wikipedia article about this song, only a link to another website that talks about it. I searched and searched and searched, and there is absolutely nothing here on Wikipedia, not even a stub. This is a very famous, well known song, especially compared to some of the other lesser-known ones that have their own articles. The only place on Wikipedia I could even find mention of it is here, on this article, and again, all there is is a link to another site. Take a listen to refresh your memory about this song in case you're not familiar: "Rocking Carol" Somebody please make a stub or something about this beautiful, popular song. I'd do it myself if I felt like spending the energy on learning how to do it. Maybe I will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YouarelovedSOmuch (talk • contribs) 19:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion

Well, all these years later, here we are again. Yes, we have songs that are not carols on the list. A carol is "a religious folk song or popular hymn".[5] "Deck the Halls" (even if marginally about Christmas...sort of) is in no sense religious or a hymn. "Auld Lang Syne" is neither a carol nor about Christmas (someone was editing while drink?).

Along with that, we have numerous songs that are not notable. While we tried to hash this out years ago, we now have Template:Uw-badlistentry, which reads "Hello. Your recent edit appears to have added the name of a non-notable entity to a list that normally includes only notable entries. In general, a person or organization added to a list should have a pre-existing article before being added to most lists. If you wish to create such an article, please first confirm that the subject qualifies for a separate, stand-alone article according to Wikipedia's notability guideline. Thank you."

Granted, there is not a policy that directly excludes non-notable entries. However, we need something clear here. If my niece writes a Christmas song mentioning "Jesus" we can certainly argue it's a Christmas carol. It does not, however, belong on this list. Furthermore, without substantial coverage in reliable sources, we really have no way to determine that the song is as carol (rather than another "Sleigh Ride", "Deck the Halls", etc.

Comments? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the inclusion criteria could be clearer, because it doesn't state that the carol has to be typically religious. Wikipedia's own definition of a Christmas carol is "song or hymn whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas or the winter season in general, and which is traditionally sung in the period immediately surrounding the holiday." (Then Norwegian entyr Musevisa is not at all religious and should be removed by your definition). Iselilja (talk) 16:40, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree, it needs clearer intro about defining a carol - e.g inclusion in a notable anthology of carols. Also need to refine criteria about under which language a carol is listed. --Mervyn (talk) 10:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy New Year 2015 ... How does the inclusion criteria look now? I think the lede here is good (1) what is included, (2) what is not, (3) definition, and (4) link to Christmas_Carol to amplify the definition, as a subset of Christmas music. As it now stands, "A Christmas carol is a carol whose lyrics center on the theme of Christmas or that has become associated with the Christmas season even though its lyrics may not specifically refer to Christmas. Both types of Christmas carols are included in this list. Traditional Christmas carols are deeply religious, mainly focusing on the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. ..." and from the Christmas carol page, "A Christmas carol (also called a noël) is a carol (song or hymn) whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas, and which is traditionally sung on Christmas itself or during the surrounding holiday season. Christmas carols may be regarded as a subset of the broader category of Christmas music." There is deep meaning in the carols, where wise men still seek him. -- AstroU (talk) 20:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion of some Irish and Catalan Carols

I have included five Irish traditional carols and one Catalan carol. When I originally added them, they were removed by ClueBot NG citing possible vandalism. I reported this false positive removal and added them again. Three of the Irish carols are in the English language and two are in the Irish language. The English language carols include:

"Christmas Day Is Come" (also known as "The Irish Carol") an 18th century Irish traditional carol written by Fr. William Devereaux and part of the "Kilmore Carols" You can listen to traditional hereor modern here

"Curoo Curoo ("The Carol of the Birds") is another 18th century carol. The composer is unknown. You can listen to traditional here or modern here

"The Darkest Midnight in December" an 18th century Irish traditional carol written by Fr. William Devereaux and part of the "Kilmore Carols" You can listen to traditional here or modern version here

The Irish language carols include:

"An Ciarrí Carúl Nollaig" ("The Kerry Christmas Carol") You can listen to here in English (don't know when it was translated)

"Oíche Nollag" (Christmas Eve") You can listen to traditional version here

The Catalan Carol includes:

"El cant dels ocells" (lit. "Song of the Birds") which was written by Pablo Casals. The song is also referenced as “Carol of the Birds” (Different from the Irish Traditional song Curoo Curoo (Carol of the Birds). You can listen to traditional version here or modern version here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:25C0:380:9591:E645:2B49:8C7B (talk) 20:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Interesting concept : Much work needed

I like the idea of this list, as the Christmas carol occupies a significant place in the development of western music, and I think a good start has been made. That said, the article needs a considerable amount of work.

• The first thing which jumps out is the sentence near the beginning, "The list is organised [sic] according to the original language of the carol."

Indeed? Yet in the "English" section I find Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella, the original language of which was almost certainly French; Deck the Hall, originally in Welsh; Glory to God (Dutch); "Good King Wenceslas (probably Moravian or Slovakian); Huron Carol (oirginally in Huron); In Dulci Jubilo (Latin); O Christmas Tree (German); Silent Night (German); etc.

If the intent is really to organize the list by original language, all of these (and a few others) need to be moved from the "English" section to more appropriate places. There are similar problems in some of the other language charts.

Speaking from 16 years experience with maintaining a database of more than 2000 ethnic and popular Christmas songs, I would suggest that charting by language isn't, perhaps, the most useful way to organize this list. A better approach might be to list all songs alphabetically, by most popular title, then give the likely ethnic origin in the next column. (Ethnic origin tends to be easier to uncover than original language.)

I would suggest also that a column be added to provide alternate titles by which the tune is known in other countries, as many of these tunes are quite commonly known by two or three different names. This could be a single chart, or it could be separated into sections by letters of the alphabet.

• Secondly, if the list is intended to only include Christmas carols, "carol" has a very specific definition in music: "a song, characteristically of religious joy, associated with a given season, especially Christmas; in which uniform stanzas, or verses (V), alternate with a refrain, or burden (B), in the pattern B, V1, B, V2 . . . B."

A goodly number of entries in this list are not "carols" by the musical definition (e.g. Away in a Manger; Silent Night; O Tannenbaum; Angels From the Realms of Glory; In Dulci Jubilo, and many others).

These are, of course, very popular Christmas songs, and have been for a long time, so you may want to rethink calling this a list of carols, and instead call it a list of Christmas Songs.

Perhaps "List of Traditional Christmas Songs" -- I 'll leave it to others to quibble over the meaning of "traditional". :)

• Thirdly, if you limit the list to strictly Christmas songs, a lot of other items have to go. We Three Kings is an epiphany song; Good King Wenceslas celebrates St. Stephen's Day, not Christmas; Deck the Hall is a pagan (yuletide) drinking song; Kyrie Eleison has nothing to do with Christmas' it's the first movement of the Catholic Mass; O Come Emmanuel is an Advent chant... and so on.

Many of these tunes have nonetheless become so associated in the modern mind with the Christmas season that it would probably be counterproductive to remove them. Including them with an appropriate comment -- as has been partly done -- is, I think, a good idea.

This does, however, raise the question of whether certain other songs should be included. For example, as of right now, perhaps the most iconic "Christmas" song of all time is Jingle Bells -- which says nothing at all about Christmas, and was originally composed for Thanksgiving. Yet so iconic has this song become, that a musician, composer, playwright, or film-maker who wants to suggest "Christmas" in the minds of his/her audience -- in any context, and at any time of year -- has only to quote the first six notes of Jingle Bells to produce the desired effect in most listeners.

One possible argument for excluding tunes like Jingle Bells would be to specify that the list only include religiously themed songs -- but in that case Deck the Hall and the Ukranian Bell Carol would also have to go, for the sake of consistency.

And that, really, is the bottom line: consistency.

Right now the list seriously lacks consistency. It would be a better, more useful article, were it more consistent.

Oh, and BTW, just or the record, Guadete -- which is a Christmas carol by practically any definition -- wasn't "popularized by Steeleye Span in 1973". Re - popularized, perhaps, but it was popularized about 400 years before most of the members of Steeleye Span were born.  ;)

74.95.43.249 (talk) 21:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I would add that "year published" should probably be changed to "year written" or "year composed". Prior to the 17th century most of these tunes can't be said to have been "published" at all. A lot of them were passed on aurally, and only published in the 19th century, hundreds of years after they were composed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 01:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

---

As a specific example of trouble, I note: "Away in a Manger" is attributed to Martin Luther in English, but no counterpart is attributed to him in Latin or German. Huh????? By way of contrast, "Angels We Have Heard on High" is cited as being a translation of a French carol, and "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" as a translation of "Adestes Fideles". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.230.119 (talk) 08:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

The comment regarding "Away In A Manger" is moot, seeing as how no scholar has ever been able to actually connect Luther to the song or lyrics. That his name is associated with the song at all is most likely due to a deliberate pious misattribution by Murray. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

clean up on many sections

There needs to be a clean up on many of the sections. For example

• Translation

There is no translation on many of the regions carols, such as with the Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Romanian and many others. It is, after all, a English wiki article

• Categorising

Is the list being categorised by the language the carol was wrote and sung in or is the list categorised by the origin. I know it was previously categorised by the language of the song but now it seems to state it is categorised by the origin. Regardless who made the change, they didn't follow up and re-categorise carols that were from one region but sung in a different language. For example Irish traditional songs that were sung in English remained in the English section and were not moved to the Irish section with the traditional carols that were sung in Irish. There is also some French Carols there too.

• Listings of Popular Songs as Carols

Some songs have been added to sections that are clearly not carols but popular Songs, such as in the Spanish section, someone had added Feliz Navidad a song released by Puerto Rican singer and songwriter José Feliciano. They might as well added Last Christmas by Wham! in the English section.

• Duplication of Songs

Some carols have been duplicated across different sections, such as Silent Night. If the list is been categorised by origin, then surely Silent Night should be categorised in and only in German. I understand that there are other languages for this carol but it originates from Germany and therefore should be consistent with the method of how the list is formed. the same could be said for many others. Maybe in the notes section it can highlight those other languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

No translation is needed if the carol is not sufficiently well-known in English and no common translation exists.

Technically, "Silent Night" is Austrian and not German and the list is "organized according to the presumed original ethnicity of the carol", so feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region. But recognize also, that this article uses either American or Oxford spelling. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure a common translation does exist. We live in the global internet age of free movement. Besides, how is the list ever going to be accurate if we cannot tell if someone has duplicated a popular Christmas carol but with the translation from their own language, nonetheless Wiki recommend such translations WP:COFAQ#TRANS. I also understand that this article is written in British (and not Oxford) or American English, but I also understand wiki strives to be inclusive in its policies of the variants of English WP:COFAQ#ENGLISH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 17:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Twelve Days of Christmas (also known as Twelvetide) and/or Christmastide

The second paragraph of the current article states:

Many traditional Christmas carols are deeply religious, mainly focusing on the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. Many songs, both religious and secular, now regarded as Christmas songs have become associated with the Christmas season even though the lyrics may not specifically refer to Christmas – for example, We Three Kings (an Epiphany song), Good King Wenceslas (a carol for St. Stephen's Day), Deck the Halls (a pagan Yuletide drinking song) and O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (an Advent chant). Other Christmas songs focus on more secular Christmas themes, such as winter scenes, family gatherings, and Santa Claus (Jingle Bells, O Christmas Tree, Home for the Holidays, Jolly Old St. Nicholas, etc.).

I think the confusion around Christmas Carols and the legitimacy of some of the Carols mentioned above might be circumvented if it is added that there are Twelve Days of Christmas (also known as Twelvetide) and similar to Christmastide and from the 25th December to the 5th/6th of January they are celebrated, hence the reason why many Christmas Carols can be related to St Stephen's Day (26th December), St John's Day (27th December), Feast of Holy Innocents (28th December), St Sylvester's Day (31st December), and right up to the Epiphany. I can put this in if no one has a problem with it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 19:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Please use the correct date formatting. None has been defined, but the majority of references use the "dmy" format, so write 25 December, etc. Also, no slash for Epiphany: 25 December to 5 January (or 6 January depending on the tradition). Otherwise, this looks OK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Ethnicity/Culture versus Language

I'd like to suggest an organization by ethnic or cultural origin/prevalence, rather than by language. There are several reasons for taking this approach:

• This is the way carols are usually categorized in songbooks. Eg., "Spanish", "Catalan", and "Mexican" carols would be categorized separately, rather than all being lumped together under "Spanish", as these are distinctly different cultural/ethnic groups. Likewise for "English", "American", "and "Canadian" carols.

• A vast number of Christmas carols/songs have been translated into multiple languages. Some translations have existed for so long that the original language of the song has been obscured. Eg., "The First Noel" is often assumed to be a French carol; in fact, it is English -- "The First Nowell"; or "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" which is listed under "English", but it's origin is Latin, and it's been translated into virtually every modern language.

• Categorizing by language can make it difficult to locate carols which may be associated with a particular region or people, but not necessarily with a specific language. For example, there are Israeli carols, but they did not originate in Hebrew or Arabic.

• Categorizing by ethnicity or culture gives more useful historical information that categorizing by language. For example, many Bohemian and Moravian carols are now rendered in the Czech language, but those are not their language of origin, and these are distinct cultural groups, or were when the music originated.

• There is a lack of consistency in the current organization. For example, "Irish" and "English" are listed separately, even though most of the Irish listings have been commonly rendered in English for a century or longer. On the other hand, there is no listing for "American", and American carols (eg., "Away In A Manger") are lumped under other categories. Yet there is a separate category for "Huron", which is a cultural category, even though the original language of that carol is French.

If trouble is going to be taken to include a separate category for the Huron carol, then there really has to be a separate category for "American" as well. Many of the carols currently lumped under "English" are distinctly American in origin, and often in sentiment:

Away In A Manger; Children, Go Where I Send Thee; A Christmas Carol; Go Tell It On The Mountain; Jingle Bells; The Little Drummer Boy; It Came Upon A Midnight Clear; I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day; I Wonder As I Wander; O Little Town of Bethlehem; Rise Up Shepherd and Foller; We Three Kings

There are other issues with the article, but the chief one I see is that of organizational consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:50, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

The issues, as I see them, are not as you claim, but with the origin of the songs. Since so many songs are borrowed by others, it would be best to have an alphabetical listing of songs with an English translation as needed, list a referenced origin of the song, then list whether the songs has been translated into another language or has alternate melodies in English (etc.). Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you that the issues with the article are not as User :70.89.176.249 claims (since he/she does seem to contradict his/her own argument but rather with as you write the origin of songs, translation, and referencing. With this in mind I have provided a collapsible table that you can view below as food for thought and which might satisfy all concerned. I think the best way forward may be a sortable table similar to that which is utilised in the List of fairy tales wiki article. The table may have sections such as Carol, Composer/Lyricist, Year Published, Origin/Region, Language, variant languages/Melodies, and Notes. Those who are interested in the origin of the carols by language can click the language button and the carols will be arranged by language in alphabetical order, those who are interested in the origin of the carol click the origin and the carols will be arranged by origin in alphabetical order, and the same with the other categories.

The example I present below includes Arabic, Catalan, Irish, and Italian (which I have alphabetised to the best I can at the moment). However there is still much work that would need to be done.

In regards to the translation into English of the carols in their native languages, it may require writing a message on the List of Christmas Carols talk pages of those wiki articles and asking people from those pages to translate the carols into English. In any way, have a look at the table and tell me what you think.

Click on this to see example of possible sortable table of Christmas Carols

Fairy tales and their origins Carol Composer/Lyricist Year Published Origin/Region Language Variant Languages/Melodies Notes "A Betlem me'n vull anar" (lit. "I want to go to Bethlehem") Traditional Catalan "A Virgin Queen in Bethlehem" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Anem a Betlem" (lit. "We're going to Bethlehem") Traditional Catalan "An Angel This Night" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "An Ciarrí Carúl Nollaig" ("The Kerry Christmas Carol") Traditional Irish Irish "Ara ve Nadal" (lit. "Christmas is coming") Traditional Catalan "Behold Three Kings Come From the East" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Christmas Day Is Come" (also known as "The Irish Carol") words by Fr. William Devereaux, 18th Century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Curoo Curoo" ("The Carol of the Birds") Traditional Irish English "Descanseu ben alegres" (lit. "Rest very happy") Traditional Catalan "Don Oíche úd I mBeithil" ("That Night In Bethlehem") Traditional Irish Irish "Dormi, dormi, bel Bambin" Italian "El cant dels ocells" (lit. "Song of the Birds") Traditional; Pablo Casals arranged the song for cello Lyrics are printed in 17th century Catalan also known as "Carol of Birds" "El desembre congelat" (lit. "Frozen December") Traditional Catalan "El dimoni escuat" (lit. "the devil with no tail") Traditional Catalan "El Noi de la Mare" (lit. "The Son of the Mother") Traditional 17th-18th century Catalan Also known as "Carol of the Gifts" "El rabadà" (lit. "The shepherd") Traditional Catalan "Fum, Fum, Fum" ("El vint-i-cinc de desembre") Traditional 16th century Catalan The word "fum" may imitate the sound of a drum (or perhaps the strumming of a guitar). "Fum" means "smoke"(noun) in Catalan. "Gesù bambino" ("The Infant Jesus") Pietro Yon 1917 Italian "When Blossoms Flowered" in English" "Hail Ye Flowers of Martyrs" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Jerusalem, Our Happy Home" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "La pastora Caterina" (lit. "Caterina, the shepherd") Traditional Catalan "Les dotze van tocant" (lit. "Ringing twelve o'clock") Traditional Catalan "Now To Conclude Our Christmas Mirth" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Oíche Nollag" ("Christmas Eve") Traditional Irish Irish "Pastorets de la muntanya" (lit. "Shepherds from the mountain") Traditional Catalan "Sant Josep i la Mare de Déu" (lit. "Saint Joseph and the Virgin Mary") Traditional Catalan "St John did Lean on Jesus' Breast" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "St Stephen Had an Angel's Face" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Suantraí na Maighdine" ("The Virgin's Lullaby") Traditional Irish Irish Also known as "The Christ Child's Lullaby" or "Mary's Lullaby" "Sweet Jesus Was the Sacred Name" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Sweetest of All Names, Jesus" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Talj, Talj" ("Snow, Snow") Fairuz Arabic "The Angel Said to Joseph Mild" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "The Darkest Midnight in December" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "The First Day of the Year" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "This Christmass Day You Pray me Sing" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (short Carol) "This Feast of St Sylvester So Well Deserves a Song" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "This is our Christmas Day" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "This is St Stephen's Day" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "To Greet Our Saviour's Dear One" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Tu scendi dalle stelle" ("From Starry Skies Thou Comest") Traditional Italian "Wexford Carol" (also "Enniscorthy Carol") Traditional Irish English "Ya Maryam el Bekr" ("O Virgin Mary") Fairuz Arabic "Ye Sons of Men with Me Rejoice" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols"

The list looks short but quite good. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Curious as to what contradictions you noted in the above analysis?

You proposed reorganization is a significant improvement, and I support it.

I still think that the "language" colum is superfluous, however. Chrismas carols and songs have been translated into virtually every language, some so long ago that the "original" language can be virtually impossible to determine. I have, for example, an entire book on "Silent Night" (which we happen to know was originally in German), in which the lyrics have been translated into 60 different languages. Moreover, in some of these languages extra verses have been written which don't appear in other languages (but could, of course, if someone takes a fancy to them and decides to translate them).

Still, your version of the chart is a definite step forward; go for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 21:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Romanian carols

Why are the translations of the Romanian carols not given?Vorbee (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Jingle Bells

"Jingle Bells" is not a Christmas song/carol. It has no references to Christmas in it. It's like "Frosty The Snowman," "Winter Wonderland," and "Let It Snow." Sure it's standard to sing them around the holidays, but they don't have anything to do with Christmas. So why is "Jingle Bells" listed? I know this has been discussed before, but it seems as though no resolution was found. Removing "Jingle Bells" isn't controversial, but due diligence. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 03:37, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The question, really, is whether this is intended to be a list of Christmas Carols, or a list of Christmas Songs. "Carol" has a rather specific musicological definition -- which has changed over different musical epochs. If this is to be a list of Carols, then a lot of material will need to be eliminated (E.g., most of the cradle songs.)

If, OTOH, it is a list of Christmas Songs, then both traditional and popular songs utilized for the holiday should be fair game. (And that would make it a more useful list.) You could have a list of all Christmas Songs, and asterisk those which are actually Carols, with an appropriate footnote.

In re Jingle Bells, that the lyrics contain no Christmas references does not negate the fact that it has become, for all intents and purposes, a Christmas tradition -- and has been for well over a century. True, it may possibly have been written for Thanksgiving (although it doesn't contain any Thanksgiving references, either), but the fact is, few people sing "Jingle Bells" for Thanksgiving -- or, for that matter, for Halloween, Independence Day, Arbor Day, or any other holiday -- they sing it for Christmas.

Applying your criterion is problematic, in other ways. It would preclude the inclusion of any instrumental music written for Christmas (Carol of the Bells).

It would preclude inclusion of a whole subgenre of songs considered traditional for Christmas: (Good King Wenceslas; Deck the Hall; The Holly and the Ivy; Here We Come A-caroling; etc). None of these very popular traditional holiday songs mention word one about Christmas.

And what about tunes that weren't written as Christmas tunes originally, but had Christmas lyrics added, sometimes years or even centuries later? (Hark! The Herald Angels Sing).

Jingle Bells has not only become a Christmas song, it's an iconic Christmas song. If a film-maker or playwright wants to suggest Christmas in a scene, they have only to have someone hum the first 3 or 4 bars of "Jingle Bells" -- sometimes the first three notes are enough -- and 99% of the audience will be thinking of Christmas trees and flying reindeer.

But in the end, it depends on whether the intent is for this to be a useful list, or one that's only informative to a very specific cult of stodgy academics -- who probably don't need it anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 22:44, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Australian Christmas Carols

Not sure if I'm putting this in the right place, but wondering if someone could please add Australian Christmas carols to the list. There's a lot of them, a few well known ones can be found here https://www.australiantimes.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/10-greatest-ever-australian-christmas-songs/ but with terrible examples of them being sung) In particular

- "Carol of the Birds (Orana)" & "The Three Drovers" are very well known Aussie carols to all school children & performed at almost every end of year/Christmas primary school concert

- "The Wiggles" songs such as "go santa go" & "santa wear your shorts" are sung to 100,000 people live each year, along with millions of tv viewers at the Sydney Carols by Candlelight & just as much staples to Aussie kids as Jingle bells or Rudolf the red nose reindeer are

- "Santa Never Made It into Darwin" reached number 2 on the Australian music charts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Boyd

- Rolf Harris's "6 white boomers" is also an old staple

Christmas in Australia is in the middle of summer, so replacements are needed for carols that other countries sing that relate to snow & cold, so we have a lot of locally written ones, the above being some of the most universal ones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.211.105.8 (talk) 15:54, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Erroneous Reverting of changes removing Carols/Songs from English Section to American Section

I noticed errors in the list for English Carols, and I have corrected for these errors but they have continuously been reverted by User:Walter Görlitz to its inaccurate state. These errors included carols misplaced in the English section and songs that should not be on the list.

The first issue is related to a confusion of the Carol Star of the East where there are two Carols (one American and the other English) that are known by the same name. The English carol is better known as Brightest and Best and was written by Reginald Heber in 1811, however the version listed in the English section directs to the American carol, Star to the East, along with the information that cites German Alfred Hans Zoller as writing the song under the title Stern über Bethlehem (Star above Bethlehem), with American George Cooper translating the words in 1890, and music by Amanda Kennedy in 1883. I moved this carol to the American Section where it is recognised as belonging to and added the information related to the English carol known as Brightest and Best to the English section with a note accompanying both Carols to Not to confuse with each other. The two Carols are completely different Hear the American carol here and the English carol here

The second issue is in reference to songs that do not belong in the English section and/or are not related to Christmas. These songs included: Mary, Did You Know? which lists "words from American Mark Lowry, and music by Buddy Greene" I Pray on Christmas which lists "written and by Harry Connick Jr." Both songs are American written and produced and if it is to be included should be in the American section and not the English.

In reference to the first song Mary, Did You Know?, this song is not related to the birth of Jesus (Christmas) but rather his death and resurrection (Easter), despite its wiki article claiming to be about Christmas, the song does not make mention of the nativity but rather his dying to save us all (listen to the song here). The Second song I Pray on Christmas by Harry Connick Jr. is a popular Christmas song (Listen Here). if this song is valid in this list then so are songs like All I Want for Christmas Is You by Mariah Carey, and Fairytale of New York by The Pogues

This needs to be changed with the relevant songs associated with the American section moved there and those associated to the English section moved to that section. The removal of these popular songs needs to occur. They can appear the Popular Christmas Song list and User:Walter Görlitz needs to cease reverting valid changes. If he is adamant of these songs appearing on the list and in the sections he keeps reverting to, then he needs to provide citations to back up his argument as specified in WP:RS

Each verse OF "Mary, Did You Know?" starts with "Mary, did you know/that your baby boy ...". How in the world is that about his death and resurrection?

You are creating an artificial divide between carols and songs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

And the song ends with the lyric, "The sleeping child you're holding". The song is a nativity tune not unlike "Still, still, still".` Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

And yet throughout the song he applies past tenses "Did you Know" instead of future "Do You Know" and not once does the song make reference to the nativity. If anything you have demonstrated, is that the song is badly constructed. I think my point has been made with your response (look up what constitutes Baby, I think you will find that the mention of the word Baby boy does not necessarily mean newborn and cannot be applied to the nativity in this circumstance, considering he mentions none of the events of the nativity but rather making blind men see and deaf men hear. A baby is not a baby for one day).

What is your explanation for the Harry Connick Jr. song I Pray on Christmas?, and Why are you repeatedly adding this song to the list?

And more importantly Why are both Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray on Christmas placed in the English section when there is an American section when both songs are American written, produced, and preformed?

I have not created an "artificial divide between carols and songs" (as you put it), that does not already exist, otherwise songs such as All I Want for Christmas Is You, Fairytale of New York Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas and many many other songs about Christmas would all have a valid reason (as you put it) to be included in the list. The consequence would be that the list would expand exponentially to an unsustainable rate and would not function as it is suppose to, whereby an individual or individuals will request it is broken up into different wiki articles (which happens already) labelled differently (which is the difference between Carol and Popular Christmas Song) so that people can digest the information and seek out what they are looking for more easily. By adding both Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray on Christmas you are pushing the quantity over the quality of the article which is harming its effectiveness. Why push so hard on these two songs and not on any of the other Popular Christmas Songs I have listed above? I suspect you are not taking a WP:NPOV and you are letting your overtly Christian values to fog your objectivity and see the forest for the trees.

All the same I welcome that allowed the move of Star of the East to the American section and adding of Brightest and Best information to the English section, but on the other issues you need to come to your senses for the benefit of the article

Did you know is not past tense, it's future perfect.

I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", but it's got the term in the title. Why are you repeatedly removing it from the list? I'm restoring it because it was added by someone for a reason, but I know for a fact you're wrong about "Mary, Did You Know", about formatting song titles (you italicize them here), and about WP:LISTGAP, so assume you're equally wrong about that. Find out who added it and ask them and the previous editors who removed songs from the list why it's here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, the tense is actually a bit more complex, "did you know that ... will", but still quite future. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

What term does "I Pray on Christmas" have in the title that entitles its inclusion on this list? Is it "I prey" or is it "Christmas"? If you are suggesting "I Prey" is the vital term in the title, then you are mistaken, being religious does not necessarily imply Christmas, which is the same problem you make with "Mary, Did You Know" which does not mention anything about the events of the nativity. If you think the term "Christmas" is the vital element in the title that validates inclusion on this list, then you are mistaken, for the reason as I have already pointed out to you previously. Just because someone packages something up and throws on a label does not necessarily mean it is what it claims to be. The writer and performer of this song, Harry Connick Jr., does not even claim that the song is a Christmas carol. There is no mention of anything remotely related to Christmas in the song (Traditional or modern), other than the term Christmas. If Christmas is the vital term that enables inclusion on this list, then why not All I Want for Christmas Is You, Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas, All Alone on Christmas and many others to be included. At least these songs are based around the period of Christmas. Then again what about Christmas novelty songs, such as All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth, Nuttin' for Christmas, I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas, I'm Walking Backwards for Christmas or many others with Christmas in the title, do they not deserve to be included based on your logic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Just because someone added the songs to the list, does not mean they should be included. According to Wiki guidelines, they should be within scope of the article (in this case Christmas Carols not Popular Christmas Songs) and therefore "I Pray on Christmas" violates WP:OOS. I do not need to contact the individual that put the song onto the list, to seek out his/her motives for doing it according to wiki's guidelines. The burden is on the individual who wishes to add something to the list to prove that it is relevant. According to wiki guidelines they must provide appropriate citations as to WP:RS. When User:Walter Görlitz repeatedly reverted the omitting of "I Pray on Christmas" and "Mary, Did You Know", he took over the burden of providing the evidence that both songs are valid for inclusion. Saying "I know for a fact" for "Mary, Did You Know" which violates WP:OR and I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", which violates WP:UNDUE, and does not constitute a valid reason for their inclusion. By repeatedly adding the song when you admit you don't know why it is included but as you put it " because it was added by someone for a reason" confirms you are knowingly violating WP:VANDAL which is not acceptable. 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to keep the songs on the list then you must provide reliable sources according to wiki guidelines. I welcome the fact that you moved "Mary, Did You Know" to the American section. The same needs to be done to the "I Pray on Christmas" song if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol, as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English. 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, I don't know if you're being funny, are blissfully ignorant or simply incapable with the language, but 1) I don't care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not, but while "pray" and "prey" are homonyms, they are not the same word, and you fully know that the word in question is Christmas. Perhaps opening the question to a larger audience would be appropriate. 2) when you repeatedly remove "Mary Don't You Know" and mis-characterize it as an Easter or resurrection song, it tells me that you shouldn't be working on the article at all. You are the one who says that you know for a fact, I'm pointing to the lyrics to state it is a nativity song. Period. Again, if you want to open the discussion to a larger audience, I'm OK with that. It is certainly a Christmas song. You have failed to give a definition to distinguish a carol from a song so we have that to debate, but it is No. 209 in the Baptist Hymnal 2008‎ and No. 192 in Worship and Rejoice so it7's more than just a song. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

So just to reiterate, you were wrong that "Mary Don't You Know" is a Christmas-themed song. I don't know if it is a carol or not, it is both Christmas and has appeared in at least two hymnals. The other song is clearly associated with Christmas, but I have no further knowledge of it. I suggest that you ask the individuals who added it (as you have been challenged, and at this point, WP:STATUSQUO would apply) or find a broader consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

You can be belligerent and insulting all you want; it is usually the act of an individual mistaken and cannot accept both the truth and facts that makes use of such methods. You seem to be changing your position on "I Pray on Christmas" to a level that would confuse anyone. In your latest responses you first write at 02:53, 14 December 2020, that “I don't care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not!” then a few hours later you respond again at 07:19, 14 December 2020 with:

“The other song is clearly associated with Christmas, but I have no further knowledge of it. I suggest that you ask the individuals who added it (as you have been challenged, and at this point, WP:STATUSQUO would apply) or find a broader consensus.”,

which tells me you do care if "I Pray on Christmas" was not included. For your information WP:STATUSQUO does not apply here as it is clear you are status quo stonewalling and WP:STONEWALL would apply here. I would also add I have reviewed who did put "I Pray on Christmas" on the list. It was added by User:Bib many years ago (28 December 2006) before the format of the list as it exists today (See Here) and included Popular Christmas songs. He seems to be a Harry Connick Jr. fan and had added The Happy Elf Song and (It Must've Been Ol') Santa Claus both by Harry Connick, Jr. and Here Comes Santa Claus (Right Down Santa Claus Lane) at the same time of adding "I Pray on Christmas". He has not been active on Wikipedia since 2016 (See Here), therefore it is no use contacting him and may violate Wikipedia:Harassment to do so. It thereby reverts back to you since you have been doing the reverting and engaging into WP:EDITWAR. The question therefore is would you object to omitting "I Pray on Christmas” from the list considering 1) the information I have supplied about the user that added it to the list, 2) you wrote you “do not care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not” and 3) as you said to another editor on 21:07, 7 December 2017 “feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region”. As I wrote previously If you wish to keep the "I Pray on Christmas" song (if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol), then it needs to be moved to the American section and not remain in the English section as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English and by keeping as it is and knowing this fully highlights that you are wilfully be disruptive.

Why is Mary, Did You Know? (and not as you wrote in your response "Mary Don't You Know") very personal to you. I do not understand why you keep reverting to it. I do not think the song should be included but when I wrote in my previous response that I welcome the fact that you moved "Mary, Did You Know" to the American section that this issue was resolved. I expect you will be challenged again on the issue, simply because there is, despite your best protests, no reference to the nativity or events surrounding the nativity in the song and anyone can see this in just a quick glance at the lyrics. The evidence from the lyrics, the word “baby boy”, that you think proves your argument, does not. As I pointed out previously, if the song contained the word newborn you might have a case, but as I wrote before, a baby is not a baby for a day and you need to look up the definition of the word to understand that and in fact the term may even be stretched beyond its conventional meaning. Someone in conversation to an 80-year-old woman may refer to her 60-year-old son as her baby boy, then again maybe the 80-year-old mother would refer to her son as her baby boy. Is any of this wrong? The woman did give birth to him (her baby) and he is a boy. So, in the end there is no evidence from the lyrics that confirm if it is from the nativity or that it refers to the nativity but rather a song on redemption, Period. As I wrote before this issue is for someone else to argue. It is out of the English section and in the American section where it should be if it is not challenged in the future and remains on the list.

Finally, your claim that I "shouldn't be working on the article at all" is outrageous. This article nor any other Wikipedia article is neither yours or my property and therefore neither of us has the right to tell the other they cannot work on the article. It is my belief that you are violating WP:POVRAILROAD to push your agenda and discourage my and other editors participation. Reviewing the history of this article through its talk page reveals discussions on the structure and what constitutes inclusion have been discussed many times and consensus of these issues were struck where it was eventually agreed after some tossing and pulling that songs that were popular with the word Christmas in the title or were religious did not necessarily constitute a Christmas carol and should be removed from the list (See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4) and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10. Separate articles with lists related to the other forms of Christmas music (such as Popular Christmas songs, Christmas Novelty Songs, and winter carols) could easily be created if they do not already exist. This article needs to stay on topic and not violate WP:OOS as the inclusion of anything with Christmas in the title or anything religious would result in the article becoming too bulky and useless. As the WP:OOS reads "Wikipedia is not the internet, it is an encyclopaedia". Encyclopaedias have sections so that people can easily seek the information they require and that they can digest that information. User:Walter Görlitz by all means open the conversation to a larger audience. I thought that is what we were doing as this conversation is in the public view on the talk page of the article and not in a private setting. If you wish to seek an arbitration or an editor with special responsibilities to discuss the behaviour as in WP:DR, then that is equally fine. it's up to you, it's your choice. I am fine with it.

Huron Carol

The "Huron Carol" ("Jesous Ahatonhia") is listed under American carols. However, when you go to the page about the Huron Carol, it is cited as a Canadian carol, having been written in 1642 by French Jesuit missionary Jean de Brébeuf. The original language of the carol is Huron/Wendat with the carol later translated into English. (I wonder if there is a French-language version.)

I can make this change, but I wonder if I should add it as a Canadian carol or an Indigenous-language carol (or even specifically a North American Indigenous-language or Huron/Wendat-language carol). Or can it be added to both categories (which would mean creating two new categories)?

I'd appreciate guidance on this from a more experienced Wikipedia editor.

Thank you for your input. Bayonett (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you can. It's quite Canadian. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)