Talk:Antifa (United States)/Archive 24

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Images

Davide King removed the images, with no explanation other then to gain consensus a strange and completely random reason. The images both of the black block and of ICE deportations both relate to sections of either of Antifa black block tactics or Antifa protesting against ICE deportations. So does anybody have anything to add to the images? Vallee01 (talk) 05:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, you are the one adding the images, so the onus is on you. I think original research applies to images too, or at least we should be careful they are about, or relevant to, the topic. You have also been reverted by Arms & Hearts too, so it was not just me. Let us follow BRD. I do not really have an opinion on this and I would like to hear what other users think too. Davide King (talk) 05:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Davide King the other image was a completely different image and also not an anti-fascist image, that revert has nothing to do with current images. Both have anti-fascist symbols and both are directly related to the text. One based onto anti-fascist black block tactics with the image of an antifa black block, the other image relating to ICE deportations with the image being a antifa protest. Vallee01 (talk) 05:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

That still does not seem to answer Arms & Hearts' concerns that "this photo seems to be from the DisruptJ20 action, which isn't generally considered to have had anything to do with antifa and isn't mentioned in this article". Are these new images you added relevant to antifa, or only to anarchism? This one is "[a]narchist anti-fascist black bloc demo in support of Liebig 34" but there is no mention of Liebig 34, "an anarchist squat in the Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg district of Berlin", in the article; so it is not relevant to an article about the American antifa. Davide King (talk) 05:57, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

File:AnarchistProBikeDemo.jpg is clearly irrelevant to this article, at it's from Leipzig, Germany (I'd remove the Cologne image that's still in the article for the same reason). File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg would seem a reasonable addition to me, since the banner says Antifa Anarchist Bloc. FDW777 (talk) 08:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg is a good addition, and thank Vallee01 for uploading and adding it. A banner that says antifa on it is clearly relevant and there's no doubt it's from the U.S. (I had to look up "FTTP" though, my grasp of anarchist lingo isn't what it used to be). There might conceivably be some scope for an historical image of German or other non-U.S. anti-fascists in the Background section, but I can't see any basis for a contemporary non-U.S. image like File:AnarchistProBikeDemo.jpg (it could be a good addition to Antifa (Germany) though). To the extent that File:Antifa 2008 Köln.jpg really just serves to illustrate the flag design it's not as bad, but could perhaps be replaced with the less clear File:Boston George Floyd Protest, Washington St. 4.jpg with File:2017.03.04 Pro-Trump Rallies Washington, DC USA 00360 (33211221516).jpg. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 09:24, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense, the image of German antifa isn't a good addition for antifa in the united states. Vallee01 (talk) 09:41, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the Cologne image, I assume (possibly wrongly) it's an image that's been in the article a long time, from when less free images were available to illustrate the US movement. But since File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg contains the logo, I would consider it preferable to replace the Cologne image with that one, or if there's similar images available they can be considered too. Replacing the non-US images with US images where possible seems sensible to me. FDW777 (talk) 10:52, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

The difference between black bloc protests and antifa is extremely hard to tell the difference, in fact the difference is non-existent. The difference being if people bring antifa flags it is portrayed by the media as antifa, if not they are portrayed usually as anarchists, therefor it is difficult for us to find what images fit. This image as an example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mobili/32093935610/in/album-72157677976251391/, licensed freely has antifa flags however is protesting the election of Donald Trump, therefor is it a good image? I don't know, I think it is however. Vallee01 (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, the largest banner in that photo is for the Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council (MACC). The second-largest is for No Borders No Nations (with 1312, in the top left corner, the numerical representation of A.C.A.B (All Cops Are Bastards). The banner that says "Make racists afraid again" uses the three arrows that the Iron Front used in the 1930s, and they were decidedly NOT antifa at the time. I can't quite figure out the banner on the left, but I don't see anything at all that says "antifa". Vexations (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vexations Indeed Vexations but there is clearly an anti-fascist flag clear within the frame, the black representing anarchism and the red socialism. Three arrows as in the iron front is an explicitly anti-fascist logo and is used by antifa groups for that purpose. That's the issue the difference between black bloc protests and antifa protests are nearly identical, there is no clear definition of what is an antifa protest is, I think the consensus we are going off here is "Do they have antifa flags?" Which is unclear as in anarchist antifa flags are also present so they follow the same principle, anarchist protests almost always have antifa flags and symbols present but that doesn't make it an antifa protest, everyone there supports the ideology antifa but they may be protesting for some other reason. "Make racists afraid again" also is an explicitly anti-fascist saying, anarchists use it but again it's impossible to tell the difference between the two because they are the same. Vallee01 (talk) 01:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, not everything anti-fascist is antifa. The Iron Front was antifascist, but they were not antifa.The two flag logo, the red flag in front of the back flag, an adaptation of the original two flags (representing socialism and communism) comes from the Antifaschistisches Infoblatt (since 1987, see https://www.antifainfoblatt.de/ausgabe/aib-2 for an example). It has since been adopted, with variations, by various groups in all kinds of combinations. In the photo mentioned above, they have placed the red flag in the foreground, and lack the ring bearing the saying "antifascist action" that one would typically associate with antifa. It is original research to say "here's a photo of antifa". We see a number of different groups, one which may be No Borders No Nations (that's a thing) or something using a logo that looks like something antifa uses sometimes. Vexations (talk) 02:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Anarchist black block at DisruptJ20

Vexations This has nothing to do with the current discussion, "antifa" stands for anti-fascist action, antifa usually means a specific kind of militant anarchist anti fascists. The three arrows is an anti-fascist symbol, it is mostly used as a symbol of antifa organizations but also see use by other unrelated organization, indeed three arrows is not a explicitly antifa symbol, however it is an anti fascist logo. It is also combined with other anarchists banners and anti fascist flags. The original Antifashite Aktion flag was used by the German Communist party in the 1930s. The two flags representing simply state communism. The new logo was created by Greek anarchist and changed the flag to black. Modern antifa organizations in the US are almost explicitly completely anarchist I have access through my university IUPUI, if you would like me to give you access to the PDF ask. It is an anarchist protest nobody has an issue with that, all images are anarchist there are no objections under that ground, that is undeniable the image is from DisruptJ20. The issue to the image is that it is unclear if it is an anarchist or anti-fascist protest. It IS an anarchist protest it was organized by the [NYC Anarchist Coordination Council], and on there banners there it is actually written. We just need to make clear if it was an antifa or anarchist protest, despite having antifa symbols the protest may have not been organized for explicit anti fascist purposes. Vallee01 (talk) 02:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

There is current agreement that File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg, is a good addition and indeed is due to the fact it states "anarchist antifa block", and they are protesting against ICE, therefor it is a positive addition to add it. The protest in Leipzig currently been stated to be a negative addition due to the fact this is an article of antifa in the United States, therefor are we in agreement on File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg? Vallee01 (talk) 02:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01 If you want to establish consensus on something, it would be helpful if you could articulate it more clearly. I thought you were proposing that "https://www.flickr.com/photos/mobili/32093935610/in/album-72157677976251391/ is a good image". You didn't make explicit WHAT it is a good image of, but from the context, I assumed you meant "black block". Let me make it very clear: You do not have consensus for that. Now you're proposing something else, "agreement on File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg", but what exactly are we supposed to agree on?

Thanks for the offer to send copies of paywalled articles, but I don't need it; I have legitimate access. Vexations (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vexations I stated clearly that File:Inauguration Approach Frankling Park.jpg might be a good representation of a Black Block, and there is no consensus on this. Currently you have put in your opinion and I don't really know what it is, and I think it is a good representation for sections on Black Block or DisruptJ20 however I don't think the image fits here, so I agree with you on that. It was simply to demonstrate the difficulty in showing the difference between Black block protests, anarchist protests and Antifa protests as they often hard to tell apart.

In the discussion multiple users has stated File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg is a good representation of antifa anti deportations and Abolish ICE protests, this isn't a "proposing something else" this is the main focus of the discussion. Stated clearly at the start of the discussion this isn't new. "Antifa protesting against ICE deportations." if you look at the diff the main image is clearly File:Anarchist anti deportation protest.jpg. The current discussion of the black block was a possible alternative. Users like FDW777 stated "But since File:Anarchist anti deportation protest.jpg contains the logo, I would consider it preferable to replace the Cologne image with that one." Other users like Arms & Hearts stated "I agree that File:Anarchist anti deportation protest.jpg is a good addition, and thank Vallee01 for uploading and adding it. A banner that says antifa on it is clearly relevant and there's no doubt it's from the U.S." Users like Davide King haven't voiced an opinion however it is clear it is a positive change.

If you have points to the contrary please share them. However wouldn't you state it is a good representation of antifa anti deportations? I mean it is a banner of Antifa flags with antifa slogans with text reading "Abolish ICE" so I think we can all agree it is a positive addition. The discussion of the image was on stated at the start of the talk, however let me state it again: The image is supposed to demonstrate an antifa protest against deportations, on a section about antifa opposition to deportations. The image is currently on the article something I believe is a positive change. Vallee01 (talk) 13:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, it would help if you included the caption that you are proposing. In your diff the caption was: Antifa banner against ICE deportations. Is that still what you're proposing? I'd leave out ICE, because it's not mentioned. I think the photo was taken during the protest covered in this article: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/02/18/supporters-of-refugees-and-immigrants-march-through-minneapolis so it would be appropriate to describe the event as a protest against deportations and the banner as representing the anarchist bloc within antifa, protesting deportations, the police (FTP and ACAB) and prisons (FTTP). Vexations (talk) 14:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The protest was largely about abolishing ICE, however I agree that there is no need to have text on the image, it is generally unnecessary. Vallee01 (talk) 06:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

References

We shouldn't be using an article more than 3 years told to describe Antifa supporters

3 years can be a long time in the life of a social movement, especially given the upheaval in American society during that time. Doug Weller talk 17:23, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Why not? If we can show there has been changes, we can use those older sources to show how the perception and/or reality of the movement has changed. But we'd need new sources that show such a change first. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, three years can feel like a long time, but it's all subjective. I can't see any reason to exclude sources because they're a few years old. Bacondrum (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it’s case by case. A high quality scholarly source or informed in-depth account would remain good, but a hastily put together clickbaity ill-informed “explainer” published in 2017 because antifa suddenly became newsworthy should be replaced by now with more informed and more expert-driven accounts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I looked for recent stories about antifa and they were mostly like this one from CBS. Little has changed in three years so we can keep the article updated by adding what little has happened in three years. I think they are dormant. The Rose City antifa website has had about a dozen articles in the past year and there is little coverage of recent antifa activity in reliable sources. In reporting the November 15 Sacramento MAGA demonstrations, mainstream media reported that antifa and other counter-demonstrators showed up, but I could only count three black bloc protestors in youtube videos. So the change is probably that their membership has declined from a few hundred to a few dozen, although it might be even smaller than that. We need however reliable sources to say that, and that may take time. TFD (talk) 04:10, 18 December 2020 (UTC)