Talk:Hüsülü, Lachin: Difference between revisions

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False sources

@TagaworShah: I've removed your additions as all of them cite sources that make no mention of what you've claimed in the article itself. The most obvious one is here when you add about a supposed Armenian-majority with a source that doesn't even mention Husulu once. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:42, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

CuriousGolden and TagaworShah, you both need to stop edit warring and reach to a consensus here. TagaworShah, per WP:CONSENSUS, I reverted the article to a stable version until a consensus is reach, (both of you) do not edit the article until then. Also, in any case, avoid labelling other editors' edits as "vandalism", as it is WP:ADHOMINEM. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 02:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello SolarVirum, I am Tagaworshah. Now I see where you are coming from however I have taken in account the criticism of CuriousGolden and changed my wording and added more precise sources for that matter. When my content was deleted, I didn’t see any valid disagreement, as I am always open to consider other arguments, I saw the deletion of content backed up my multiple reliable sources. The claim that they did not talk about the village in question could be easily debunked by reading the quotes I provided from each source. Again, I would be glad to further discuss my sources however “ repeatedly removing reliable sources posted by other editors” is seen as Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. I gladly accepted the criticism of the first edit and brought back more reliable sources, I have even more sources I planned to add. If there is any part of my source work or wording that you’d like to disagree with, I would be happy to discuss and come to a consensus however deleting perfectly valid sources without valid reason isn’t an argument. I see you are colleagues with CuriousGolden, and that you reverted back to their work. If it’s ok with you, I would like to restore my content. After the second edit by CuriousGolden, I did in fact add additional source material and have considered everything they said. I hope you understand Sincerely: TagaworShah (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The things you add aren't supported by the sources you're providing (which are also not WP:RS by the way). Let's dissect each addition separately. Firstly, you're adding the supposed Armenian name to the village in the lead in bold letters near the WP:COMMONNAME of Hüsülü. We don't add other names in bold to the lead unless the village was Armenian-populated before the First Nagorno-Karabakh war or the Armenian name is the modern common name. And in this case, like all others, this village was Azerbaijani-populated and the Armenian name isn't the modern common name. Secondly, you've added This village was originally known as Melikashen by its Armenian residents for the princely palace of the Armenian Melik Haykaz yet the source you added doesn't even mention the name "Melikashen". The quote for that source you've added mentions Melik Haykaz from Kashtaq country, but there's nothing about this village like the sentence you've added to the article claims. Thirdly, you've added ..built here in the year 1480. Melik Haykazyan, the first dynastic ruler of the melikdom of Agachech-Kashatag (1450-1520), made Melikashen his summer residence. with a source that again, doesn't even mention Melikashen once. And the rest are the same. You're adding material that isn't even mentioned in the sources you're giving. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@CuriousGolden: @Solavirum: Guys, remember not to bite the newcomers, follow Wikipedias guidelines on dispute resolution and try to fix problems by rewriting the passages or flagging problematic parts instead of removing content if possible.

The largest part of the historical context of the village added by @TagaworShah: seems to match the sources that were provided as far as I can tell from a cursory view:

Melik Haykazyan, the first dynastic ruler of the melikdom of Agachech-Kashatag (1450-1520), made Melikashen his summer residence.^[1] His palace was built here on an artificial slope surrounded by a fortified wall with towers and gates. The palace complex is located inside the rectangular territory of the courtyard. The living area of Melik Haykaz was located on the ground floor while his throne room was located on the gallery of the second floor.^[2] It follows the classical architectural style of the Armenian Melik Palace,^[3]^[4] it has been recently restored and turned into a hotel.^[5]

It seems that the source provided for the first part about the summer residence of Melik Haykazyan in Melikashen, which is referred to as the "The palace of Kashatagh" in the text, seems to be a correct reference as far as I can tell: [1].

@Revolution Saga: @RaffiKojian:, as you guys helped with the Handaberd/Lekh Castle article and its historical context, perhaps you have some insight with regard to the newly added content [2] to this article as well? AntonSamuel (talk) 10:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Explaining what's wrong with their edit to a newcomer in hopes of them improving it is surely not biting them. In fact, I opened a discussion explaining them politely why I reverted their edit when they first made additions. Technically, adding content that isn't supported by the given sources is subtle vandalism but I believe the good faith of the editor. And none of the sources they provided actually mention Melikashen (assuming something else that was mentioned in the source is Melikashen is WP:OR without a sourced confirmation) and I've pointed out what's wrong with each one of their additions separately in my comment above, which you can read for yourself, therefore I won't repeat them here. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@CuriousGolden: I would say your discussion style here is pretty confrontational and heated, calling edits and sources "false", strongly criticizing the parts you find problematic, while removing all of the added content including that which matches the sources used, instead of tagging problematic parts or doing some research of your own regarding the matter in order to add content and better sources. Throwing around Wikipedia guidelines such as WP:OR and WP:SNEAKY when describing an editor's additions without caution is not very friendly or constructive either. I don't believe they really qualify here. Regardless, if a Wikipedia guideline is used to prevent constructive additions, such as adding historical context to an article, the rule can be ignored - focus on improvements, not rules. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AntonSamuel, where did I exactly "bite him"? I don't care about the topic, just called both to respect each other and conclude this issue with a consensus. Now, for the related part of your comment, CuriousGolden has a point here, even if the major third-party really mentioned what TagaworShah wrote, the editor has to add the real books or articles that mention it as citations. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 11:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ARTAK GHULYAN. "CASTLES (PALACES) OF MELIKS OF ARTSAKH AND SIUNIK". 2. The palace of Kashatagh (15th cent.) (pl. 2-3, I) is situated on the left bank of Tzitzernavanits tributary of the Aghavno river in the district of Kashatagh (Lachin). It refers to Melik-Haykaz the First (1450 - 1520), the founder of melikal principality of Kashatagh and is dated the end of the 15th cent. It is built on the slope of a hill, on the altitude created with brace walls. It consists of three smoothly covered, adjoined rooms, a colonnade arched hall and a two-storied vaulted hall adjoined to them from the west and the melik's flat is on the first floor and the open upper hall -the summer reception-throne hall -of Melik Haykaz is on the second floor. The compositional form created with a colonnade and two-storied hall of the fortified palace is the oldest and most entire one among the similar monuments. {{cite web}}: line feed character in |quote= at position 310 (help)
^ Vigen Avetisyan (2019). "The Armenian Kingdom Of Kashatagh – This Is Not A "Safety Zone", This Is Our Homeland". The village of Melikashen houses the palace of Kashatagh meliks built in the 1480s. The Melikatun (Melik House) complex is surrounded by a fortified wall with a tower and a gate. The palace consists of two-story chambers with vaulted rooms and other buildings. This structure was built by Melik Haykaz in 1480.
^ ARTAK GHULYAN. "CASTLES (PALACES) OF MELIKS OF ARTSAKH AND SIUNIK". The melikal palaces have mainly been the defence point, the special citadel of the residence-center, and they have also been called fortresses for this reason (Kashatagh, Kaghakategh, Mokhratagh, Horekavan, Gulatagh, Shushi).
^ "Kashatagh (Lachin) province". ArCgroup. 2001. Based on the research of 1985 architect Artak Ghulian provided the first architectural description of the princely quarters. In this regard he has particularly stated that "being the continuation of traditional forms and volumes annlied in the compositional resolutionof the palaces of Khachen and Vayots Dzor of the 12th-14th centuries, the planning and volume of Kashatagh castle is a link between the further development of the 17th-18th cent melik residences frequent in Karabakh and Zanghezoor".
^ Rouben Galichian (2012). "The Invention of History- Azerbaijan, Armenia and the Showcasing of Imagination". HayBook. To pinpoint the outright lies contained in the table it is sufficient to look at the page 104 of the book war against Azerbaijan(see Fig. 17), where the photo of the ruined Hamza Soltan palace in the village of Hüsülü(now Melikashen), which in fact is Melik Haykaz' summer palace, located in the District of Lachin is depicted, and then....the table claims the building has been "destroyed." In 2007 this writer stayed in a small guesthouse in the village of Melikashen, Lachin district which was the rennovated and refurbished summerhouse of Melik Haykaz

[1] ARTAK GHULYAN. "CASTLES (PALACES) OF MELIKS OF ARTSAKH AND SIUNIK". 2. The palace of Kashatagh (15th cent.) (pl. 2-3, I) is situated on the left bank of Tzitzernavanits tributary of the Aghavno river in the district of Kashatagh (Lachin). It refers to Melik-Haykaz the First (1450 - 1520), the founder of melikal principality of Kashatagh and is dated the end of the 15th cent. It is built on the slope of a hill, on the altitude created with brace walls. It consists of three smoothly covered, adjoined rooms, a colonnade arched hall and a two-storied vaulted hall adjoined to them from the west and the melik's flat is on the first floor and the open upper hall -the summer reception-throne hall -of Melik Haykaz is on the second floor. The compositional form created with a colonnade and two-storied hall of the fortified palace is the oldest and most entire one among the similar monuments. {{cite web}}: line feed character in |quote= at position 310 (help)

[2] Vigen Avetisyan (2019). "The Armenian Kingdom Of Kashatagh – This Is Not A "Safety Zone", This Is Our Homeland". The village of Melikashen houses the palace of Kashatagh meliks built in the 1480s. The Melikatun (Melik House) complex is surrounded by a fortified wall with a tower and a gate. The palace consists of two-story chambers with vaulted rooms and other buildings. This structure was built by Melik Haykaz in 1480.

[3] ARTAK GHULYAN. "CASTLES (PALACES) OF MELIKS OF ARTSAKH AND SIUNIK". The melikal palaces have mainly been the defence point, the special citadel of the residence-center, and they have also been called fortresses for this reason (Kashatagh, Kaghakategh, Mokhratagh, Horekavan, Gulatagh, Shushi).

[4] "Kashatagh (Lachin) province". ArCgroup. 2001. Based on the research of 1985 architect Artak Ghulian provided the first architectural description of the princely quarters. In this regard he has particularly stated that "being the continuation of traditional forms and volumes annlied in the compositional resolutionof the palaces of Khachen and Vayots Dzor of the 12th-14th centuries, the planning and volume of Kashatagh castle is a link between the further development of the 17th-18th cent melik residences frequent in Karabakh and Zanghezoor".

[5] Rouben Galichian (2012). "The Invention of History- Azerbaijan, Armenia and the Showcasing of Imagination". HayBook. To pinpoint the outright lies contained in the table it is sufficient to look at the page 104 of the book war against Azerbaijan(see Fig. 17), where the photo of the ruined Hamza Soltan palace in the village of Hüsülü(now Melikashen), which in fact is Melik Haykaz' summer palace, located in the District of Lachin is depicted, and then....the table claims the building has been "destroyed." In 2007 this writer stayed in a small guesthouse in the village of Melikashen, Lachin district which was the rennovated and refurbished summerhouse of Melik Haykaz

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

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 {{ping|Revolution Saga}} {{ping|RaffiKojian}}, as you guys helped with the [[Lekh Castle|Handaberd/Lekh Castle]] article and its historical context, perhaps you have some insight with regard to the newly added content [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=H%C3%BCs%C3%BCl%C3%BC,_Lachin&oldid=999775122] to this article as well? [[User:AntonSamuel|AntonSamuel]] ([[User talk:AntonSamuel|talk]]) 10:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 :Explaining what's wrong with their edit to a newcomer in hopes of them improving it is surely not biting them. In fact, I opened a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:H%C3%BCs%C3%BCl%C3%BC,_Lachin#False_sources discussion] explaining them politely why I reverted their edit when they first made additions. Technically, adding content that isn't supported by the given sources is [[WP:SNEAKY|subtle vandalism]] but I believe the [[WP:AGF|good faith]] of the editor. And none of the sources they provided actually mention Melikashen (assuming something else that was mentioned in the source is Melikashen is [[WP:OR]] without a sourced confirmation) and I've pointed out what's wrong with each one of their additions separately in my comment above, which you can read for yourself, therefore I won't repeat them here. — [[User:CuriousGolden|<b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b>]] <b style="solid black"> [[User talk:CuriousGolden|(T·]][[Special:Contribs/CuriousGolden|C)]] </b> 11:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
+::{{re|CuriousGolden}} I would say your discussion style here is pretty confrontational and heated, calling edits and sources "false", strongly criticizing the parts you find problematic, while removing all of the added content including that which matches the sources used, instead of tagging problematic parts or doing some research of your own regarding the matter in order to add content and better sources. Throwing around Wikipedia guidelines such as [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SNEAKY]] when describing an editor's additions without caution is not very friendly or constructive either. I don't believe they really qualify here. Regardless, if a Wikipedia guideline is used to prevent constructive additions, such as adding historical context to an article, the rule can be [[Wikipedia:Ignore all rules|ignored]] - focus on improvements, not rules. [[User:AntonSamuel|AntonSamuel]] ([[User talk:AntonSamuel|talk]]) 11:18, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 {{U|AntonSamuel}}, where did I exactly "bite him"? I don't care about the topic, just called both to respect each other and conclude this issue with a consensus. Now, for the related part of your comment, CuriousGolden has a point here, even if the major third-party really mentioned what TagaworShah wrote, the editor has to add the real books or articles that mention it as citations. --► Sincerely: '''[[User:Solavirum|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:black">Sola</span>]][[User talk:Solavirum|<span style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC; color:#560605">Virum</span>]]''' 11:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)