Talk:Arab slave trade
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What happened to the French source of this article?
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traite_Musulmane --Jahsonic 16:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- oops, sorry, I found it here http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traite_musulmane
Moreau de Charbonneau?
I moved the French WP reference to "Moreau de Charbonneau" to the talk page because I couldn't find this author or his book in library catalogues - e.g. the French National Library and catalogue collectif de France. (Moreau de Charbonneau, administrateur et explorateur français du Sénégal au XVIIe siècle: De l'origine des Nègres d'Afrique)--HJMG 06:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The quote "A negro steals when he is hungry....etc.." is in fact a forged hadith which has been dismissed by all hadith experts as false.
The full quotation of the hadith and why it is a forgery can be found in the book "An introduction to the science of hadith" by Suhaib Hasan.
English version of map
Hoping someone can make an English-language version of the map. Here are the words.
(Title)
Africa in the 13th century (or: 13th century Africa)
(In box)
- Hafsid Caliphate
- Ethiopia
- Arab slave trading posts
- Great Zimbabwe
- 1 Merinids
- 2 Abd El-Ouad
(On map - from bottom)
- San
- Khoi
- Feti
- Zanzibar
- Kitara
- Tundjur
- Aloa
- Kanem
- Tuareg
- Mali Empire
- Yemen
- Arabs
- Persia
- Mameluk
Ideally, perhaps Tundjur and Yemen could be a little bit easier to read? Many thanks to anyone who can take this on. --HJMG 07:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Not a fair representation of Islam and slavery
ibn Khaldun was ONE man, one arab, his viewpoint did not reflect upon all arab society at the time, and certainly not upon the view islam had on slavery,
Ibn Khaldun wrote racist things about arabs themselves, calling them savages and lazy (albeit the nomads), and he WaS an arab! He seems like a racist at heart, talking about blacks that way, and also his own people (the arab nomads- bedouin). So it is not fair to say arab society had the same viewpoint, the Quran specifically says all men were created equal in the eyes of god, see "religion and slaverY" article to see the true views islam had on slavery (which encouraged emancipation, good treatment etc.)
===>Okay... Just because he was a racist, that doesn't mean he was wrong about historical fact. This article is not about hypothetical or philosophical justifications for slavery or abolition in Islam; it is about the historical facts of Islam converging with African slavery. If you have an actual objection to the facts of the article, feel free to state them. There is no doubt that Islam has been used as an ideology to oppress people (and still is today) including slavery. -Justin (koavf), talk 14:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- This article is simply a translation of the French original fr:Traite Musulmane. The French article has obtained this year the status of "articles de qualité", alias "good article", passing through a votation that collected 0 - yes 0 - votes against the propsal of conferring the status [1]. So only because an anon. editor doesn't like the article I won't let the tag remain.--Aldux 15:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh so you agree with Ibn Khaldun? You are a racist as well, calling his words FACT? - anyone could have written anything at the time and referred to it as historical fact.. Prove that all of the vast arab/islamic empires and people held the same racist viewpoints (which they did not, as they are completely contrary to what is in the Quran and taught by the prophet Muhammad), and then call your words FACT. The viewpoint Islam had on slavery, and the teachings Muhammad gave regarding slavery called for gracious treatment of all slaves, by far surpassing previous Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism) in setting forth an example for the just treatment of slaves. Justin (koavf)- Already you are creating a stir by talking like that, saying no doubt Islam has been used as an ideology to oppress people, which is only YOUR view, similar to those of Ibn Khaldun being just that, HIS view. What about Christianity and Judaism? The KKK call themselves christian, do their views not call for oppression (of blacks and other minorities). Justin your statements are subjective.
===>Whoa, Nelly Okay, let's think for a second. This article isn't Racism in Arab culture or Racism in Islam, so racist views are not directly relevant (although there is clear Arab anti-Semitism.) I'm not going to prove that, can't, and don't care to. You admit that Islam provides for and enculturates slavery - Christianity doesn't, and the historical origins of Christianity prove that slaves were treated well and freed by Christian masters, and that they didn't buy further slaves after conversion. All of this is also irrelevant, though, since the article isn't Christian slave trade or Jewish slave trade. Whether or not the KKK is Christian is totally irrelevant to this article. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not arguing for Christian supremacy, just the existence of an Islamic slave trade. -Justin (koavf), talk 12:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
No.1 - The Atlantic slave trade - CHRISTIANS? were they not? english, americans, spaniards . . .clearly no one can deny that No.2 - what has arab anti-semitism got to do with the Islamic slave trade? thought you'd just throw it in there i guess, ok then. . . No.3 - no doubt, there was Islamic slave trade, i am not disputing that, but what do the narrow-minded views of one racist arab historian (Ibn Khaldun) have to do with the vast Islamic slave trade spanning Africa (including islamic africans, non-islamic africans, arabs, berbers, persians, indians, turks and other people from the caucuses/balkans, even chinese?, etc.)
===>Pointless
- Here is what I am not saying "No Christians have ever had slaves" and "Christianity has never been used as a pretext for slavery." Here is what I am saying "There is no justification in word or deed from first-century Christian communities for owning or selling slaves" and furthermore, the New Testament does not give you guidelines on how to own slaves. Lastly, Christian slave trade is irrelevant to this article. You brought it up for some reason.
- You brought up Arab racism, not me. To quote "prove that all of the vast arab/islamic empires and people held the same racist viewpoints." You also alleged racism on my part, which is baseless.
- The "narrow-minded views of one racist arab (sic) historian" are relevant, as they are primary sources. That's simple to understand - he was there, and he wrote it down. -Justin (koavf), talk 17:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
> Firstly - regarding arab "anti-semitism", arabs are semitic, so arab anti-semitism is the most stupid thing i've ever heard, Jews are not the only semitic people in the world, so the biggest "anti-semitism" going on in the world right now is that of Israel against the Palestinian peoples. Also, arabs are an ethnic group, not a religious one. So linking Arab "anti-semitism" with Islamic anti-semitism is wrong! There are numerous populations of arab christians, arab jews, arab gypsies, and arab muslims.
Furthermore, there are far more cases of Christian anti-semitism (with regards to Jews) than those of arab-so called "anti-semitism". Russian pogroms, european "ghettos" for Jews only (although these existed in the Islamic world aswell), and who could forget Hitler and his Nazis!. The only arab-"anti semitism" going on is from 1948, with regards to the formation of the (illegal) state of Israel. Christian anti-semtism on the other hand goes back a long, long time. At the end of the day, ask any Jewish scholar and he will tell you that the Jews were treated much better under arab/islamic rule than under christian rule (not include times after the 1948 formation of Israel). Also if you wanted to include the crusades as being part of "anti-semitism" then those would count aswell, as Christian anti-semitism against arabs and other muslims.
And yes I did say that - Prove that all of the vast arab/islamic empires and people held the same racist viewpoints (which they did not, as they are completely contrary to what is in the Quran and taught by the prophet Muhammad), and you did not prove it, because you can't prove it, because it did not happen! History, like life, is not black and white, you can't make claims like that, especially since those views are completely contrary to what is written in their holy book - the Quran.
You wrote - "There is no justification in word or deed from first-century Christian communities for owning or selling slaves" and furthermore, the New Testament does not give you guidelines on how to own slaves.
Is it worse to have guidelines for the just treatment of slaves, or to have people abuse their slaves because there are no guidelines (as happened with the Christian run Atlantic slave trade). Slavery was an ancient institution, going back even before Christianity, and i'm sure that it existed during the start (1st century) of the Christian era aswell as at its peak in Christian run areas. You need to show that there are no justifications in word or deed, and even if this was the case, it still doesn't mean that just because there was no justification slavery still did not happen. And whenever something is inconvenient for you, it is irrelevant huh?
Lastly, you called Ibn Khalduns words historical fact, which means his words were factual to you, which makes you a racist.
I am here, and I am writing down that you, -Justin (koavf), are a tool, does that make my words true? In 100 years time people read these articles will it make my words true, or fact? will it prove that you really are a tool? It is a primary source though right? I don't think you are a tool, but do you see what i'm getting at? Don't have such tunnel-vision.
===>Whatever. Explain how this makes sense:
- ibn-Khaldun was an Arab who was racist against Arabs.
- Arabs can't be "anti-Semites" since Arabs are Semites.
- Jews, who are Semites, are the biggest anti-Semites.
What? And, again, you brought up racism. The intimate ties between Arab culture and the birth and growth of Islam in the Middle East and North Africa are obvious to anyone. You are the one who conflated the European trans-Atlantic slave trade with Christianity, and those two social groups (Europeans and Christians) have much less overlap than do Arabs and Mulsims.
Christian anti-Semitism is, still and again and forever totally irrelevant to this article. I do not care to debate with you just who has hated more Jews for longer; this article is not Christian versus Islamic anti-Semitism. Hitler was an avowed anti-Christian, however. It is certainly not the case that the only Arab anti-Semitism going on is from 1948 - as I recall it was Muhammad who drove the Jews out of Arabia with the mantra there there would be only one religion (his.) Again, this is totally irrelevant though. The Crusades were instigated by Muslims, who had themselves been conquerors of those same lands against Christians years prior. Again, totally irrelevant. There are also a million good reasons for a Jewish homeland, and the State of Israel is a more free, more democratic, and altogether better place to live than anywhere else in the Middle East and North Africa, especially if you are an ethnic or religious minority. But, this, too is totally irrelevant.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean "History, like life, is not black and white" - historical events either did or did not happen; black and white. Are you telling me that it is okay according to the Quran to slaughter blacks in Darfur or blow up innocent civilians in the World Trade Center? If not, are you saying that these people aren't Muslims? As you said, life isn't black and white - people use Islam and the Quran to perpetrate atrocities the world over (beheading Christian school children in Indonesia, for instance), and there is no doubt that Islamic regimes are hostile to people inside and outside of their borders. The amazing thing about all this is that it's totally irrelevant to this article. This is about historical events, and you aren't actually offering any proof that any of the claims made in the article are false; you're just offering apologies and invectives that have some tangental similarity to the article.
Again, not defending the Atlantic slave trade, not my point. But the Atlantic slave trade happened a millenium and a half after the founding of Christianity. Muhammad himself had and continued the practice of keeping slaves. Those are two entirely different mentalities - one precludes slavery altogether, the other protects, legitimizes, and enculturates it. This has nothing to do with things being difficult for me to prove, it has everything to do with the title of the article, namely "Islamic slave trade."
You, sir, are either ignorant or lying. I said " Just because he was a racist, that doesn't mean he was wrong about historical fact." And that is true. I have no idea what ibn Khaldun wrote. I do not know if it is true or not. What I said was regardless of the feelings he had in his heart about Arab peoples, he could still say that certain things occured in real life and be correct about recording those things. This is not a subtle distinction I am making.
The fact that you call me a tool does not mean that I am one (I might be, might not be), but it means that someone who is a contemporary of mine, living at the same time and having some actual interaction with me, thinks I am. That is what makes it a source. Not all sources provide true facts; they merely record what someone at that time thought about something that occured at that time. Do you understand the difference? I'm not saying that ibn Khaldun got everything right, or even that he got anything right. I am saying he was there at the time. To prove that his is not a primary source, you need to prove that he either 1.) was not alive at the time, 2.) did not witness the events he claimed he did, and/or 3.) that he added claims that are not factual in the middle of his factual account. You haven't done any of these things; you've just called him a racist. That might be true. I don't care. All I care about is the authenticiy of his writing as a primary source, and the reliability of the claims he made about events that transpired at the time. Are you actually understanding any of what I'm writing? -Justin (koavf), talk 15:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
--------->again
1) Ibn Khaldun WAS an arab who was racist against arabs! Read the article on him on this Wikipedia, “on the arabs” section. His specific usage of the word “arab” was directed at the Bedouin nomads, who are arabs, he called them savages and lazy.
2) 2)Ok, that is true, both arabs and jews can be “anti-semites”, with regards to eachother, so the notion of arab anti-semitism is not that stupid, but it is equivalent with the notion of jewish or Israeli anti-semitism (against arabs).
3) Yes, Jews, who are semitic speaking peoples, are for now, the biggest anti-semites because of their persecutions and killing of the Palestinians, who are arab, who are semitic. OK?
Yes there are intimate ties between arab culture and the birth of Islam. The Quran, which has remained essentially unchanged since it was written, was written in Arabic. But you maybe surprised to know that only 18% of all the worlds muslims are arabs! The rest are either African, South asian (Indian, Pakistani etc.), Asian, Non-arab middle easterns (ie. Turks, Persians, kurds). It is funny that you call me ignorant, when you are the one ignoring the millions of arab Christians (in the middle east, ie. Lebanon – Maronites), arab jews (in Israel, yes they make up a good 20% of the population of Israel), and many more arab Christians in the middle east. It is also debatable that Christians and Europeans have much less overlap than Arabs and Muslims. You think Arabia – you think Muslim! You think Europe – you think Christian, simple as that, in a religious sense anyway.
Hitler was anti-Jew, not anti-Christian, he was raised Catholic, and gave conflicting notions as to the topic of religion. As for the Nazi party they remained essentially Christian, supporting the churches, and German soldiers on the ground were all certainly Christian, taking breaks along with the allied soldiers for Christmas (and resuming fighting the next day). With regard to Muhammed driving out the Jews of Arabia, he only did so because the Jewish tribe that he was allied with in Medina betrayed him and his followers, allowing the surrounding tribes to mount an unsuccessful attack. This is in itself a controversial topic.
On the Crusades, these were wars of aggression, not only aimed at Muslims, but also resulted in the massacre of Jews and other civilians, and many other minorities, an outlet for blood-hungry Christian warriors.
“There are also a million good reasons for a Jewish homeland, and the State of Israel is a more free, more democratic, and altogether better place to live than anywhere else in the Middle East and North Africa, especially if you are an ethnic or religious minority. But, this, too is totally irrelevant.”
Israel is free? How is it free for the Palestinians killed by gunfire and helicopter ships provided by the USA to Israel, how is it free for Arab Jews, who are, even though they are Jewish, constantly conceived to be conspiring and discriminated against. Which world are you living in? There are NO religious minorities in Israel, only Jewish people, that is the whole purpose of the State of Israel.
Historical events did or did not happen – true, but the so called “facts” from historical events come from varying sources, each one different, so they are not Black or white. An event may have happened differently for each person who was there, this is also the case when dealing with the Physical world, as in science, and frames of reference in Physics (theory of relativity, Einstein).
What are you even talking about? Slaughtering blacks in Darfur? The situation in Darfur is more complicated than that, it is a conflict between Muslim nomads (who appear black anyway – and are arab origin) and a black south vying for independence from a central government. In addition there are muslims in the south (both arab, and non-arab or “black”), and non-muslims in the north, adding to the complexity and inter-tribal warfare. As for blowing up the world trade center, how typical that you bring that up. Aside from the not so far fetched conspiracy theories regarding this incident (the 4 or 5 Israeli nationals under the George Washington bridge that were arrested on the night of September 11th and conveniently “disappeared” from the limelight once blame had been quickly established to Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda), and who were later revealed to be MOSSAD (intelligence agency of Israel) agents. Some would also argue that, conspiracy theories aside, much like you said the Crusades were a response to muslim aggression (which is hippocritical and ludicrous), the September 11th attacks were a “response” to continued US interference in the middle east and support for Israel and its war crimes against the Palestinians.
As for people using the Quran to perpetrate atrocities the world over, the EXACT same thing can be said regarding Christianity – crusades, pogroms, KKK, Hitler – how many times must we go through this? Extremism occurs EVERYWHERE, and can be taken to any level, there are Muslim extremists, Christian extremists, Buddhist extremists, Hindu etc. They find one verse or section in the Quran, and dispute that it means something else, often ignoring different parts of the whole, continuous text. As I said before, one thing, one sentence – may mean DIFFERENT things to different people. The same can be said regarding biblical verses and texts. And misleading people about these things is what leads to terrorism etc
Also, you did not prove any of what you said about there not being evidence of Christian slavery.
I am neither ignorant, nor lying.
And this Ibn Khaldun thing has gone on long enough, lets see whats written in the article shall we?
“These racist opinions recurred in the works of Arab historians and geographers: so in the 14th century Ibn Khaldun could write "The only people to accept slavery without any hope of return are the negroes, because of an inferior degree of humanity, their place being closer to the animal level."[5]
You say he was right about HISTORICAL FACT?
His whole sentence in there is a matter of opinion, there is nothing factual about his statement at all. And it DOES NOT, I repeat, reflect upon the views of Islam nor the general arab population on slavery or race. Islam says all men were created equal in the eyes of God, and should strive to submit to the will of God, not themselves. Islam calls for gracious and decent treatment of slaves, and encourages emancipation. Ask ANY Islamic scholar and he will tell you the same, as it is written explicitly in the Quran. As for Ibn Khaldun, he was a racist who talked shit about his own people too (see above, point 1))– so bottom line – stop trying to tarnish Islam’s image or arab peoples image as racist bigots you fools.
____________________________________
Could I just mention that this commenter doesn't understand the situation in Darfur very well, and in fact seems to confuse it with the North-South conflict in Sudan. In addition, a later commenter mentions the Ugandan Lords Resistance Army, but this article gives evidence of a Muslim influence upon that strange movement too, perhaps resulting from the support and shelter given it over the years by the Islamist government in Khartoum.--Lopakhin 21:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC) Oh, and: Aside from the well confounded, not so far fetched conspiracy theories regarding this incident (the 4 or 5dancing Israeli nationals ... - was 'confounded' what the commenter meant to say, or was it a malicious interpolation by a later editor? ;o) --Lopakhin 15:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I would just like to point out==========
I hate to get into this, but, I would just like to take the time to point out that Christian, jewish, muslim, buddhist, taoist, it doesen't matter. Any religion and/or organization that invites anyone and everyone to join is bound to have a few people with I.Q.'s too low for their own good. Simply put, people screw up, no matter who they are or how capable they are of doing it. We all make mistakes. In this case, this is the view of a man who felt this was one of those particular mistakes. No matter his nature, any person can make an observation. I feel that some knowledge, some observation, is better then none. With enough half tales, you'll eventually be able to piece together the truth. That's the whole concept of multiple sources right? So instead of screaming racist, I invite you to search for the truth. From there add, edit and quote. Just don't forget to mark your sources. For the better of the article right..now, always, forever. Much more productive then complaining, woulden't you agree :P. Joel
---------->
I did make a mistake with regards to Arab jews, i meant arab Israelis, or arab israeli citizens (make up approx 20% of population of Israel). Arab Israelis maybe Muslim, or Christian, Arab Jews on the other hand probably are no longer referred to as arab, but rather Mizrahi Jews or Teimanim (as opposed to European based Ashkenazi or spanish Sephardi jews etc.). Also, there are numerous populations of muslims in Europe aswell, (turkey, albania, bosnia et)but you must also recognise that there are numerous other religions other than Islam in theMiddle East (ie. Arab Christian, Jews, Zoroastrians etc.) who are protected by Islam as they are considered "People Of the book"
===>Nothing to do with anything What in the world are you talking about? How is any of this relevant to the Islamic slave trade? Are you familiar with Palestinians that shoot up children in nurseries, or blow up teenagers in discotheques? Or the Arab countries that systematically deny them citizenship or refugee status to keep them political pawns against the Israeli Jews?
I know that many Muslims are not Arab, and some Arabs are not Muslim. Maronites do not consider themselves Arabs; Palestinian Christians do. You're the one that said the Atlantic slave trade had some relation to Christians and Christianity.
Nazis killed Catholic priests that protected Jews, and imprisoned Christians of conscience like Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Hitler and the Nazis were largely neo-pagans.
The Holy Lands were taken by Muslim conquerors, and the first crusade was agitated by Muslims.
Israel is free; freer than any other Middle Eastern country. Israel has religious minorities. Israel lives under a constant state of attack, in case you weren't aware. A hostile population of about 200 million surrounds them.
Okay, so Darfur is complex; I'm not saying it isn't. What I am saying is Muslims are using Islam as a pretense for killing people. The same thing happened at the World Trade Center. Are you telling me that is not the case? If you're implying that Jews and/or Israel somehow engineered the bombings in New York City, you're an anti-Semite.
As for people using Christianity as a pretense for perpetrating atrocities - OKAY. Not relevant. You brought up all these issues - racism, Israel, Christianity, and none of them has anything to do with the article, which is still entitled "Islamic slave trade." A trade of slaves by Muslims. Get it? Do you have anything to say about the content of this article? I'd like to see some of these Buddhists extremists that you claim exist.
As for the article, it is HISTORICAL FACT that he wrote that, isn't it? So, what's the dispute exactly? No one is saying that he represents all Arabs at all times. People are saying that he is indicative of a mood fostered in Arab, Islamic culture at the time. Had that mood not existed, an Arab slave trade in Negroes would not have existed. Ibn Khaldun may not speak for all, but he speaks for enough, as their complacence allowed (and continues to allow) the slave trade of blacks in North Africa.
As for those religous minorities protected as People of the Book, tell it to Abdul Rahman. -Justin (koavf), talk 00:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------
Why do you think that arab countries deny them citizenship or refugee status? To harbor refugees is a responsibility, if they grant them citizenship, and some form of resistance to Israel breaks out inside these refugee camps (is very often the case) Israel sends its bombs and missiles straight over the border (just ask Lebanon, or Syria). So it is not because they do not want to, but their hands are tied. The neighbouring arab countries have their own issues, both with Israel and socio-economic ones, which makes harboring refugees difficult.
Give me a break, yes I’m aware of Palestinians who shoot children, this is wrong. But I am also aware of Israeli attitude of total domination towards the Palestinians, building walls separating families for essentially ever, controlling water supplies, electricity (basic needs of the people) and using these as punishment or reward for Palestinians, blowing up cars, houses, streets, shooting children who are only throwing rocks at their tanks.
Israel lives under a constant state of attack? What about Palestinians? The maximum damage that a suicide bomber can do is measly compared to the carnage a whole Israeli gunship or missile force can do, lets not kid ourselves. Honestly, we could go on forever about Israel and Palestine.
Examples of Buddhist extremism? – Look it up for yourself. Monks setting themselves onfire (self-immolation), either alone or in a large group with the intent of dying, many do, some are permanently disfigured. Buddhist attacks on churches in Sri Lanka, and many more instances.
Apostasy in Islam is a sensitive topic. Once again it is based on Hadith of Muhammed saying if a muslim abandons his faith – kill him. But Hadith is oral tradition and so his statements vary, the credibility of Hadith are also second to the Quran. The Quran is what encourages protection of people of the book. So religious minorities in a muslim country (like Christians, Jew) are protected and allowed freedom of worship as long as they do not try to convert others.
And since you are the one who brought up atrocities in Africa (Darfur), I will bring up Uganda and the atrocities of the Lords resistance army (a Christian organization). – who kidnap and rape children, use them as sex slaves, and force them to fight for them.
You wrote
“As for the article, it is HISTORICAL FACT that he wrote that, isn't it? So, what's the dispute exactly? No one is saying that he represents all Arabs at all times. People are saying that he is indicative of a mood fostered in Arab, Islamic culture at the time. Had that mood not existed, an Arab slave trade in Negroes would not have existed. Ibn Khaldun may not speak for all, but he speaks for enough, as their complacence allowed (and continues to allow) the slave trade of blacks in North Africa”
Indeed, Ibn Khalduns words do not speak for all arabs at all times, nor for all arabs at his time. In fact they speak for a very small minority of arabs at his time, and no Muslims would agree with him, not at those times, not now, as those views are, aside from being arrogant, narrow-minded and stupid, at odds with the very fabric of the religion of Islam.
You are talking about the slave trade as if Arabs were the first ones to introduce slavery to the world, and as if they only traded specifically in blacks. Ignoring the many Africans (non-Islamic and Islamic) who traded slaves amongst themselves and with other peoples, and the long, almost ancient history of slavery which goes back way before the birth of Islam. In addition the Islamic slave trade used black slaves, white slaves (eastern europeans) and involved a whole host of nations and peoples (see above discussions).
And no, that is exactly my point, Ibn Khaldun does not speak for nearly enough people, he was ONE man with his own world view that he happened to write down - a narrow-minded fool, relying on sterotypes to classify people – ie. Sterotype of arab nomads being savage, lazy, and blacks being animistic.
“their complacence allowed (and continues to allow) the slave trade of blacks in North Africa”
What double standards! What about the Christian Atlantic Slave trade??. What about the Christian Lords Resistance Army (above)?? who kidnap children and force them into fighting and sex, this is not slavery?? And to my knowledge there is no Islamic slave trade in North Africa anymore.
Also, you did not prove any of what you said about Christian slavery, you want to turn people away from Islam on the pretense that it is a racist ideology by a racist people. Well once AGAIN I will write, because it must be known, with regards to Islam and slavery – which is what this article is meant to be about –
Islam says all men were created equal under God, and should strive to submit to the will of God, not themselves. Islam calls for gracious and decent treatment of slaves, and encourages emancipation. Ask ANY Islamic scholar and he will tell you the same, as it is written explicitly in the Quran!
ALSO, in the article it says:
“Scholarly Muslims invoked the racial supremacy of white people, based on the story of Noah's curse in the Old Testament, and interpreted this passage (Genesis IX 20-27) to mean that black people were the accursed descendants of Canaan's father Ham, who had seen Noah naked. Blacks were thus considered "inferior" and "destined" to be slaves”
Whoever wrote this is a COMPLETE tool/idiot, the holy book of Islam is the Quran, not the Old testament where this passage about Noah is, so it is Christians who hold these racist views, not muslims (see Religion and Slavery article). Why would scholarly muslims read from the Old Testament, when the most recent revealed words of God, unchanged, had been passed to them in the form of the Quran. So all that crap about “"There is no justification in word or deed from first-century Christian communities for owning or selling slaves" is crap, and everytime I ask you to prove it you never do. CHRISTIANITY CONDONES SLAVERY. Islam encourages emancipation, and good treatment, Christianity may or may not, depends which part of the book really. In some part asking for complete submission of slaves to their master, even if he is cruel.
The Bible:
Ephesians 6:5-9:"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling,”
Peter 2:18 "18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19
===>I absolutely cannot believe this Do you see the title of this article? It's not entitled "Christian versus Islamic slavery," is it? Get over it.
Arab countries turn away Palestinians to use them as political pawns against Israel, and it's disgusting. They also helped cause the refugee crisis by telling them to run during the wars that Arab nations instigated against Israel. Israelis don't want to dominate Palestinians; they'd be happy to never see them again for the most part. They'd probably really like it if they stopped killing innocent people. And honestly, we can go on forever, and it's totally irrelevant to this article.
Apostasy in Islam is sensitive; so is getting killed for the contents of your mind. If someone tells you to kill people solely because of what they believe, that's pretty abominable. You claim that religious minorities in Muslim countries are protected and allowed to freely worship, but you and I both know that this is a total sham (see, for instance, Maldives, where non-Muslims aren't even allowed citizenship, or Indonesia, where school girls are decapitated for being Christians}.
“As for the article, it is HISTORICAL FACT that he wrote that, isn't it? So, what's the dispute exactly? No one is saying that he represents all Arabs at all times. People are saying that he is indicative of a mood fostered in Arab, Islamic culture at the time. Had that mood not existed, an Arab slave trade in Negroes would not have existed. Ibn Khaldun may not speak for all, but he speaks for enough, as their complacence allowed (and continues to allow) the slave trade of blacks in North Africa”
You wrote "[Ibn Khalduns words] speak for a very small minority of arabs at his time, and no Muslims would agree with him..." You don't know that. Did you do polling date on the attitude of Arabs from a few centuries back? That's totally impossible to prove.
I'm not "talking about the slave trade as if Arabs were the first ones to introduce slavery to the world, and as if they only traded specifically in blacks." What are you talking about? This article is about Arab slave trade in Northern Africa. Of course it will focus on Arabs enslaving blacks. This article is not Arab origins of all slavery over all the world. If you have some axe to grind about other slave trades, write about it in those articles.
"And to my knowledge there is no Islamic slave trade in North Africa anymore." You're willfully ignorant. Slavery#Slavery_in_North_Africa, Here's the first hit from Yahoo! on "slavery" "Sudan"
I don't have to prove anything to you. If you want to read about early Christians writing about slavery, see here. If you seriously want to discuss it, talk about it on my talk page. I want people to turn from Islam in as much as it promotes slavery and killing people for their peaceful convictions, I suppose.
The Scriptures from Ephesians and Peter are directed to the slaves and not the slave masters. The passages directed at slaves discouraged slave revolts, rather than condoning and enunciating how to properly engage the practice. If the Quran is directed to the slave masters and encourages their behavior, that is a different category of moral culpability. -Justin (koavf), talk 01:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
THIS ARTICLE IS BIASSED: Picture of slaves in chains:: under "Aims", and Ibn Khalduns words
Objections to picture:
Why is this picture there?
-it is from 19th century, which is past the Islamic slave trade and more probably Atlantic Slave trade
- in the caption of the picture it says "probably" slaves - "probably" is not acceptable, they could be CRIMINALS
- "probably" east Africa?? Could be west africa, and hence part of Atlantic slave trade.
- Could be East Africans part of the Atlantic slave trade.
"Probably" is NOT Acceptable.
THIS ARTICLE IS BIASSED
Ibn Khalduns comments are irrelevant as he was biassed, and so were his comments. To put these in the article you must prove these beliefs were widespread, which they WEREN'T, as they were against the religion of Islam which is what this article is ABOUT.
- This article is simply a translation of the French original fr:Traite Musulmane. The French article has obtained this year the status of "articles de qualité", alias "good article", passing through a votation that collected 0 - yes 0 - votes against the propsal of conferring the status [2]. So only because a biased newbie doesn't like the article I won't let this article be hijacked. Some don't seem to understand what is simply obvious; this isn't an article about Islam, the religion, but simply about slavery in the Dar al-Islam, so that Muhammed said this or that is hardly relevant, and doesn't mean a judgement on the religion, as the trans-atlantic slave trade does not mean a judgement on Christianity. --Aldux 15:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
On the picture's suitability, please see my comments further down the page.--Lopakhin 14:05, 6 September 2006 (U
The article is laughable. He quotes a saying "a negro steals when he is hungry" This quote is not from the individual he claims it is from (although it is from a French translation so it's a questionable source anyhow) but from a well known forged hadith! It has been universally dismissed as a forgery (see the book "hadith literature")
The other point "The sultan of Cairo sending out slave raiders on villages of Dafur" when exactly? Seems this writer of the article has been watching too much CNN. If he is talking about the eary middle ages (Fatimad and Ayyubid times) The "Sultan of Cairo" would have had to get past the King of Nubia first! somehow I doubt that the rulers of Nubia would have allowed Arab slave raiders to go marauding around their territory. By the 15th century Nubia was converted to Islam anyway!
This article has some very suspect sections, where images and selective text are used to trick the reader into a certain mindset. Mansa Musa is put in the section of collaborators, yet there is no references. So what r people suppose to think? the terms to label African people is very derogatory, black Africans, blacks, black slaves. they dont say People were enslaved, no the blacks slaves. Africans are not born slaves, they have to be enslaved.--Halaqah 10:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
-----------
"Arab countries turn away Palestinians to use them as political pawns against Israel, and it's disgusting. They also helped cause the refugee crisis by telling them to run during the wars that Arab nations instigated against Israel."
First you say that they are used as political pawns and not given refugee status and then in your very NEXT sentence you contradict this by saying that they they are made refugees and told to run (which means they will be harboured by neighbouring countries), which one is it?? Proves you just like to provoke and talk nonsense . . .
Israelis have been, continue to, and strive to DOMINATE Palestine and the entire Middle East region, it is why this puppet empire of the United States was created. You think Israel isn't culpible for WarCrimes or terrorist activity? Read up on IRGUN on this wikipedia, the Israeli terrorist organisation which murdered innocent Palestinians, performed calculated terrorist activities (ie. DEIR YASSIN - killing off an entire village of Palestinian people who had been there for centuries before them) and whose leaders are probably running israel right now (NO joke). Or the Stern gang, another jewish terrorist organisation who contacted Nazi Germany to aid them in the "evacuation of jews to their historical homeland" - proof of the sham of the holocaust.
You wrote:
"You claim that religious minorities in Muslim countries are protected and allowed to freely worship, but you and I both know that this is a total sham (see, for instance, Maldives, where non-Muslims aren't even allowed citizenship, or Indonesia, where school girls are decapitated for being Christians}."
You are a fool, this was ONE incident, occurring on October 29, 2005, 3 Christian schoolgirls were beheaded. It was a CRIMINAL act and those who were accountable were brought to justice. There is a long history of fighting between Christian and Muslim communities in Indonesia, especially areas like Poso, where the beheadings occurred. The beheadings were the tragic result of CIVIL TENSIONS between the islamic and christian communities of Poso, you are speaking as though it was government sponsored actions, which is totally untrue. The Christian community has also been known to flare up violence and certainly is not all innocent either. Indonesia is the worlds most populous muslim country, don't you think if the government wanted to kill all Christian Indonesians it would have done so by now? But it is actively pursuing peace in the regions where there are tensions, because this is the Islamic way. Funny how you completely avoid the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda though, as if it never even happened, as if it never was even brought up, but instead try to pin up propaganda about school girls being decapitated (which as i stated, was ONE incident, in a region filled with constant flare ups of tension and fighting).
You wrote:
"[Ibn Khalduns words] speak for a very small minority of arabs at his time, and no Muslims would agree with him..." You don't know that. Did you do polling date on the attitude of Arabs from a few centuries back? That's totally impossible to prove."
I wrote,
- Indeed, Ibn Khalduns words do not speak for all arabs at all times, nor for all arabs at his time. In fact they speak for a very small minority of arabs at his time, and no Muslims would agree with him, not at those times, not now, as those views are, aside from being arrogant, narrow-minded and stupid, at odds with the very fabric of the religion of Islam."
Am i talking egyptian to you? a martian would have understood me by now. What part of ISLAM IS NOT RACIST dont you understand? I am saying that a Muslim, whose holy book is the Quran, which explicitly states that all men were created equal, and shows no correlation between race and slavery, would not agree with Ibn Khaldun, because his views were totally un-Islamic. I am saying that although Ibn Khaldun might have like to call himself a muslim, or was vaguely familiar with Islamic concepts, he was not a muslim, because his beliefs contradicted with Islam. In reality, he was a racist arab who stereotyped people based on their ethnicity (ie. Sterotype of arab nomads being savage, lazy, and blacks being animistic).
And no i didn't do a poll on the attitude of arabs, and neither did you, nor anyone else, and until you DO or find out some other way to prove that these attitudes were widespread ( WHICH AS I SAID, they WEREN't, as they are completely UN-ISLAMIC.) or any of the other crap you've been saying, back off and stop trying to pin labels on people, and blame arabs or muslims for all the worlds problems.
You are the ignorant one, of course there is still slavery going on in Africa, and North Africa, whether this be slavery for trade, child-labour, war-slaves, sex-slaves(ie. what the Lords Resistance Army is doing in Uganda), but i am saying there is no longer a vast, systematic slave trade spanning the North Africa as there was before. Can you see the difference?
BIAS is bias, Prejudice is prejudice
Aldux:: It makes no difference if this is a French feature article, i am saying that BIAS is Bias, and prejudice is prejudice. Do not allow the tags to be removed. This is an important discussion people need to read with regards to Islam and Slavery.
- Jjfad, let me be clear: if you think that your opinion is enough for keeping that NPOV tag, the awnser is no. To this moment I have heard only propaganda: if you want to convince somebody that all the editors who made the French version were biased, as were those who supported the FA nomination, you'll have to do a lot better than that. I'll leave the tag here for a day or two, waiting for reasonable objections. After that, it will be removed. As for the image, it's here to stay, like it or not.--Aldux 15:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I am watching the bove person and if they continue to wage racist wars on history i wil take action. WHO CARES ABOUT FA nomination. We must be clear on who these people are, werent their the colonizers and enslavers of Africa, isnt france a place that just banned the Muslim head-dress. Wake up man and live in the real world. Its one thing these racist come here and do their racist deeds but then they sell it to us as rightous and just. I suggest Aldux find another place to play. BIAS IS BIAS, it makes no difference if the King of France puts his stamp on it, this is not validity, the only valid thing is truth and honesty, and much of this work is dishonest and subverting Africa and Islamic history --Halaqah 10:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
This is unbelievable
How can you say that I have not shown any reasonable objections. I am saying that:
- The Quran, which ALL muslims follow, explicitly calls for gracious treatment of slaves, and encourages emancipation
- So there were racist arabs, this does not mean they were Muslim, more likely businessmen trading in slaves.
- There were MANY racist Christian/European views on Africans. But these were completely left out of the Atlantic Slave trade article, so why mention a tiny minority view of arabs at those times in the Islamic Slave Trade article unless you want to create bias towards them.
- Repeating the discussion::
"I am saying that although Ibn Khaldun might have like to call himself a muslim, or was vaguely familiar with Islamic concepts, he was not a muslim, because his beliefs contradicted with Islam. In reality, he was a racist arab who stereotyped people based on their ethnicity (ie. Sterotype of arab nomads being savage, lazy, and blacks being animistic).
And no i didn't do a poll on the attitude of arabs, and neither did you, nor anyone else, and until you DO or find out some other way to PROVE that these attitudes were widespread ( WHICH AS I SAID, they WEREN't, as they are completely UN-ISLAMIC.) or any of the other crap you've been saying, back off and stop trying to pin labels on people, and blame arabs or muslims for all the worlds problems"
You must PROVE the attitudes were widespread, which they weren't (explained above) before you put things like that in.
- ALSO, in the article it says:
“Scholarly Muslims invoked the racial supremacy of white people, based on the story of Noah's curse in the Old Testament, and interpreted this passage (Genesis IX 20-27) to mean that black people were the accursed descendants of Canaan's father Ham, who had seen Noah naked. Blacks were thus considered "inferior" and "destined" to be slaves”
THE ABOVE SENTENCE IS A LIE AND UNTRUE
The holy book of Islam is the Quran, not the Old testament where this passage about Noah is, so it is Christians who hold these racist views, not muslims (see Religion and Slavery article). Why would scholarly muslims read from the Old Testament, when the most recent revealed words of God, unchanged, had been passed to them in the form of the Quran.
- ibn Khaldun was ONE man, one arab, his viewpoint did not reflect upon all arab society at the time, and certainly not upon the view islam had on slavery,
Ibn Khaldun wrote racist things about arabs themselves, calling them savages and lazy (albeit the nomads), and he WaS an arab! He seems like a racist at heart, talking about blacks that way, and also his own people (the arab nomads- bedouin). So it is not fair to say arab society had the same viewpoint, the Quran specifically says all men were created equal in the eyes of god.
- Finally, there are plenty of other admins that would be willing to hear my case. Don't think that you can print lies and propaganda and get away with it. Don't think that this will go away.
As for the picture
Why is this picture there?
-it is from 19th century, which is past the Islamic slave trade and more probably Atlantic Slave trade
- in the caption of the picture it says "probably" slaves - "probably" is not acceptable, they could be CRIMINALS
- "probably" east Africa?? Could be west africa, and hence part of Atlantic slave trade.
- Could be East Africans part of the Atlantic slave trade.
"Probably" is NOT Acceptable.
I can't vouch for the picture, but the 19th century was assuredly not 'past the Islamic slave trade'. To take one instance, the British Royal Navy spent a fair bit of its time in that century trying to eradicate the slave trade in Zanzibar. See here. And slavery in Saudi Arabia was only abolished in 1962. see here.
--Lopakhin 20:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Why the title?
The opening makes clear that "The slave-traders were not exclusively Muslim, nor exclusively Arab", so why is "Islamic" in the title of this? If no-one can come up with a good reason, I propose to move and retitle. --Vjam 16:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there is no better name. For some time I thought naming it Trans-Saharan slave trade, but it's clear it was not the only way slaves arrived in the Islamic territories, as they came also by the Ocean Indian sea route, and the also the Mediterrenean. At the French version Oriental slave trade was proposed, but it would have been a terribly eurocentric name. So Islamic slave trade was chosen, referring to the word in the sense of the slavery practiced in the countries governed by Muslim leaders, the Dar al-Islam, "a term used to refer to those lands under Muslim government(s)." To be clear this is an article on the practice of the slavery in the Islamic countries, not the question if this or that religion more friendly to slavery; these issues are not treated here but at Religion and slavery; there's a section there on Islam and slavery.--Aldux 17:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is Oriental slave trade Eurocentric? I don't get that.
In the talk page of the French version, it isn't clear that "Islamic" was chosen by consenus - it was strongly contested in a discussion that just fizzled out.
If you Google "Oriental slave trade" versus "Islamic slave trade" and just look at the top results, you get reputable sources (Stanford, Yale, Amazon etc) for the former. For the latter, you get pretty much exclusively results from extreme right and otherwise partisan sites (with the exception of this Wikipedia article). If you go to the top hit and then its homepage, the first line is "Europe is in danger of falling to Islam". Then you get an African anti-Arab site, then Wikipedia, then just a map whose provenance I can't work out, then a page from something called "Agressive Christianity", then something from Salon magazine (not too bad, but highly a POV interview with an author), then something which briefly discusses whether "Islamic slave trade" is a useful term, then a South African/Zimbabwean far-right site.
It seems to me than, in using this title for something which it doesn't proprly describe, the article is unwittingly part of a racist, revisionist agenda. --Vjam 16:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- You have a full right to promote a move, but I'm a bit surprised by your action. I would have expected you would have at least waited my awnser, especially since I was ready to propose to hear the opinion of a regional admin., so that we could heard a third opinion. The fact that you get some rightist stuff (you have been higly selective in the articles you mentioned) in 939 hits shouldn't surprise anybody; but I can't help noting that you forgot to mention that Oriental slave trade has only 17 hits, two of which are from this wikipedia article and a duplicate article. As for Arab slave trade, which is really the most commonly used in scholarship and common usage, the hits are 12,800. We're not hear to invent new terms, or prefer terms hardly ever used. Also, I have trust in the judgement of the French wikipedian community that under that title (or, more exactly, Traite musulmane) gave the article featured status; or are we going to say that the French-speaking wikipedian community is a cove of seething racists?. The fact that eurocenric nature of the term Oriental slave trade isn't immediately perceived is only a proof of how strongly embedded it is; come on, do you think an Indian, a Japanese, an Australian would call it Oriental slave trade? It's "Oriental" only observed from the west, and I thought we were making a universal wikipedia.--Aldux 17:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I already promoted a move in my earlier post.
I've not been selective in the Google returns I quoted - I quoted the whole first page. The type of results returned in the second page was similar, but I didn't look further than that.
I left off the quotes when I googled oriental - my error. But "Islamic" hear is clearly in minority use and has an agenda. I can't see any reasonable defence of it. It does look like you have a point with "Arab".
The French Wikipedians debated the term (admittedly without conclusion), so I don't think this can really be relied on as an authority. In any case, you can't use one wiki to back up another wiki in that way.
I think an Indian or an Australian (or a Japanese person or anyone else) speaking English would use "oriental" in this context. It's a word used universally in English (and other European languages) with a universally understood meaning. In the same way, occidental (or even "Western") does not imply an Eastern-centered standpoint. However, this is kind of academic if Arab is going to be preferred. --Vjam 19:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- The Saharan and East African slave trade were very different in character, in time frame, and in location. The Western bias might not be the name, but rather in the fact that scholars have lumped these two different trades together simply because they were non-western and largely Muslim. Perhaps we should split this page into separate Trans-Saharan slave trade and Indian Ocean slave trade articles. This would parallel the geographically named Atlantic slave trade. - SimonP 20:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Could I just mention that the only issue I have with any of these suggestions is that to my (British) mind, the first association brought up by the word 'Oriental' is of the Far East. I know there's Edward Said's 'Orientalism', but maybe that hasn't seeped its way into the popular consciousness enough yet. So I agree with Aldux, and I guess I'd plump for what SimonP says.--Lopakhin 12:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Think three templates on the front page is a bit much. --Vjam 19:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- SimonP's point has a rationale, but is a bit problematic; for me at least. This is mainly because this article has opted on treating the phenomenon as a whole, and by dividing we risk to ruin it, a question much more important than that of the name of the article. Also, the separation is not so radical to warrant this separation; after all the time frame isn't much different, and in important markets like Egypt, Arabia and (less) Syria there was a strong tendency to overlap. Honestly, I'd have difficulties in splitting the article. Regards the name of the article, should we rename it for now Arab slave trade? It appears to be considerably more common than Islamic slave trade, let alone Oriental slave trade.--Aldux 20:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the article would only be ruined by splitting it if this is objectively the wrong thing to do. The question, for me, is whether SimonP is correct in saying that "The Saharan and East African slave trade were very different in character, in time frame, and in location". I can appreciate the argument that this could prove disruptive to the existing article, but we should prefer the best way over the easier way. Apologies if I've opened up a can of worms here. But in answer to your question, I'd say, for a number of reasons, "Arab slave trade" is preferable to "Islamic slave trade". At the moment, though I'm also siding with a geographic split, but not being an expert on the history I'd defer to a consensus that what SimonP says is inaccurate. --Vjam 11:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Jjfad, as a rule I don't awnser messages that contain insinuations or personal attacks; so I will ignore your messages until you learn to adress others with civility.
- As for Vjam, I must admit that neither I am exactly an expert on the whole argument, even if I know a few things regards the Saharan slave trade. I highly respect SimonP's as a veteran editor; but maybe we should pass through a RfC, to hear some other views, and if there is a majority for the split, some advices on the modalities. What do you think?--Aldux 13:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
--What insinuations?
I never insinuated anything, and never personally attacked anyone, i am merely giving my opinion. "civility"?, am I too “uncivilized” or arab to be part of this discussion? A genuine Ibn Khaldun you are.
With regards to the title, I agree with vjam and simon that the article can be split accordingly, but “eastern slave trade” is also suitable. I don’t think “arab slave trade” is suitable, it says at the very start of the article that those involved were not exculsively arab, so how can it be called “arab slave trade” then? black Africans sold and bought/acquired slaves, arabs did the same. It is ignoring the significant involvement of non-arab africans, persians, indians, turks, and to an equal or lesser extent europeans, chinese and other east asians , this was a big trade spanning 3 continents, so it should be named accordingly.
-------------
As I said before, no mentions of any racism was brought up in the Atlantic slave trade article, and there were many racist view on Africans during this time by Europeans, so why put in a few irrelevant comments by an arab historian, racism occurred atall times, and by all people, even blacks have been racist towards other races. The point is to try and show the commonly-held view at the time, and seeing as Islam by nature and philosophy is not racist, its not fair you put these things in under a title named “Islamic slave trade”.
The slave traders were not exclusively arab, there were black , white, Persian, Indian , asian etc. involved aswell, and they were not exclusively muslim, By using the word “Islamic”, and putting in those racist comments by one or 2 arabs, you are implying that Islam is racist, which is totally untrue, It is clear you are trying to manipulate the article to suit your own propaganda.
Even the section “Aims of the slave trade”, has nothing to do with Ibn Khaldun’s views, his comments have nothing to do with the “aims” of slavery at all, if anything it is “views on the slave trade”, and even then his attitude was not widespread, as Islam says with regards to race, that all men are equal and should treat eachother equally under God, and with regards to slavery that slaves should be treated well and encourages emancipation. SO Why put it in? It is not a “racism in society” , or “racism and slavery” article.
What you have done with the title is equivalent to changing the Atlantic Slave trade article to “Christian–European slave trade”, regardless of whether or not the slave traders were “Christian” by morals or values.
How about “eastern slave trade", or "Pre-trans atlantic slave trade”?
Aims of the slave trade and slavery
This is not biased and factual, the fact that islam allows slavery, and that that Mohammad had people enslaved in wars he fought for islam benifit are both FACTS. That this trade mostly involved arab traders with the Hub of this trade in arabia is also a fact.Hypnosadist 01:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Not a neutral article
- The title should be changed, not only arabs or muslims were involved, it even says so in the opening paragraph, so why stick with "Arab Slave Trade". The "Atlantic slave trade" article is not called "European slave trade", even though the slave traders were pre-dominantly European, so why make an exception for this article. It was a big trade spanning 3 continents, and should be named accordingly. (ie. saharan slave trade),
- The "aims of the slave trade" is bias - it contains an unverified picture, refers to racist comments by Ibn Khaldun and . Al-Abshibi. What have they got to do with the article exactly? this is not a "racism in society", or "slavery and racism" article. There is no mentions of any racism in the Atlantic slave trade article, even though it is obvious there was a lot of racism going on during it. So why mention any tiny minority views of arabs during that period unless you wanted to create bias toward them.
- This was a wide spread trade, involving not only arabs, but also blacks, europeans and asians. Blacks sold and bought/acquired slaves, arabs did the same.
- Ibn Khaldun also wrote racist things about his own people (arabs), calling the arab nomads savages and lazy. So why mention his comments in a article about the saharan slave trade? He was not a slave-trader, nor a slave, he probably was not even in slave trading areas. Once again, i mention that there was NO mention of any racist thought or attitudes in the Atlantic slave trade article, but all this in one named Arab slave trade, it is clearly trying to portray arabs and Islam as racist bigots, which is completely contrary to muslim thought.
- I am not saying there was never any arab racism, indeed history has shown that there was racism by arabs, towards blacks, jews, persians and others. But there has also been racism by blacks towards arabs, persians towards arabs, jews towards arabs, jews towards blacks, blacks towards jews, it could go on and on. What I am saying is that if there was racism, it was not condoned by Islam (ie. racism between arabs, persians, blacks - all may be muslim but be racist to one another, even though it is against their religion.
- Furthermore, i am not saying "cover it up" as if racism never existed in arab culture or islamic society. i am saying put it in the right place. start a whole new page titled "arab racism" , or "racism and slavery" and put all the Ibn khaldun or al-abshibi quotes you can find. but since there is no racism mentioned in an article that is about trans-atlantic slavery (a trade fuelled by racist attitudes) it is not fair that you put a minority view of arabs in an article called "arab slave trade". As if to say that arabs only traded in blacks, when this is not true, europeans were taken as slaves as well as ethnic arabs. Furthermore black african kingdoms used arab slaves as well. Slavery was an ancient institution, Arabs were not the first to introduce it. Furthermore, Islam recognised slavery as an ancient institution/part of life, but called for gracious treatment of all slaves and encouraged emancipation (see Religion and Slavery article). Ofcourse sinning humans may not have uplifted these tenets and this would lead to bigotry and bad treatment of slaves. Again i am not saying ignore this, only put it in the right place, under the right title.
- It's not my problem how the Atlantic slave trade article was built; there is no rule of reciprocity between articles in wikipedia. As I 've said a thousand times to you, this article is simply a translation of the French featured article, that has passed through a nomination process. You can't impose your opinions, especially when it is utterly alone. Arab slave trade is the name by far most used by the pubblic and scholars, while Oriental slave trade is hardly ever used; for this it has been selected, it's not up to me to say if common usage is right or wrong.--Aldux 11:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Aldux: - You are contradicting yourself, when the article was called "Islamic slave trade" you said that was the most used name and now it is changed to "Arab slave trade?" The point is to call it by the most accurate and non-bias name. Regarding the Atlantic slave trade, Africans, and African -americans hardly use "Atlantic slave trade" to describe it, but more likely in their native tongues "Maafa"/the Tragedy or the "black holocaust". So it is all relative what to "call" a specific event, so we should aim to call it by its geographical roots. In this case, - it is trans-Saharan slave trade, Eastern slave trade, Oriental slave trade, or something similar. You are the one imposing opinions, removing neutrality tags without even discussing anything.
- The first thing you have to remember (and that you keep forgetting) is that I didn't write the article, but simply promoted its translation as part of a project to promote the translation of French featured history articles. I didn't even choose the name; only I noted that Islamic slave trade was more used than Oriental slave trade, that I also found highly eurocentric. As for trans-Saharan slave trade, while I would personally like it very much, but it is not coherent to the content, as an important part of the article deals with the Indian Ocean slave trade. Also, it is not up to wikipedia to correct eventual bias in scholarship; it's not up to me to decide if the title Arab slave trade is biased, simply it is by far the most used, and that's enough. A possibility would be to split the article, but you'll need to find an experienced editor for such a work, and I've got a lot to do on wiki now. As for the NPOV issue you have raised, I'm sorry but I insist: this article has been seen by many editors, French and English, and none except you have had problems with the quality of the article.--Aldux 11:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Neutrality
Seeing as my previous account is no longer useable, i feel that someone in this wikipedia has real problems Aldux.
Seeing as you say that sockpuppetry will get one in trouble, how about meat puppetry? which is what you are doing. As for the articles neutrality, i have said time and time again that it is not neutral, and given my justified opinion, enough to warrant a neutrality tag. We have 4 options here:
1) We can leave the neutrality tags up there, or come to some sort of negotiation, I am willing to only put a neutrality tag on the "Aims of slavery" section for now.
2) I will delete the entire Ibn Khalduns comments, and other racist sections of the page, and the picture, leaving you to justify why they should be left in (ie. why that content should even be in the article) and why they should not be moved to an entirely new article (ie. called "arab racism" or "slavery and racism")
3) We can split the article, something which you said you were in favour of, and i would not mind, or re-name it by its geographical roots, ie. trans-saharan slave, eastern slave trade, oriental slave trade, in which case i would still object to the racist comments.
4) We can continue deleting/adding this neutrality tag which would break the 3 Revert rule, in which case i will take this matter to an admin or someone else in a position of authority.
In addition i would just like to add - i dont know whether there is any rule of reciprocity between articles, but there is a rule of neutral POV, or neutrality, and this article certainly is not neutral in its treatment of the subject at hand, especially the "Aims of slavery" section - which as i said, contains an unverified picture, goes on about racist comments made by 2 arabs, but 2 out of how many? maybe 2 or 3 million.
And these two (ibn khaldun + al abshibi) were writers, and not directly involved in the trade at all, so they do not reflect the whole view on how slaves really were treated during the time, or their treatment by their prospective owners once they reached their destinations - which was generally good, and much better than the conditions experienced in the trans-atlantic trade.
Additionally, the section does not state that these comments are certainly un-Islamic, does not state the entire facts, or represent the Arab side fairly. Such as the FACT that the Quran called for gracious treatment of all slaves and says all men are created equal under god, a fact which no one can dispute, and a fact that would have an enormous impact on how slaves were treated, as Islam was the religion of the lands where this slavery took place, and reinforced daily in the culture of its people. Most people in these areas, whether it was the slaves, slave-traders or households which purchased the slaves were muslims. It also does not state the fact that arab slaves were used in black African kingdoms as well, or the fact that many of the slaves themselves were muslims.
Jjfad
- Please do not make personal attacks, Jjfad. Aldux did not hack your account to prevent you from using Wikipedia. I have placed a warning on your talk page. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- Jjfad? (1) Enslavement, not matter how prevalent, is unethical, with the consequence that a few Qu'ranic passages concerning leniency are irrelevent in a moral context. (It'd be like my holy book authorizing me to steal from you, but recommending that I be polite while lifting your wallet and raiding your storehouses.) Their inclusion essentially represents a moral-equivalence logical fallacy, since all the pronouncements of leniency mean nothing in the face of the "FACT" that slavery was not only permitted, but authorized. (2) Obviously "all men are..." NOT "...created equal under god" if the Qu'ran authorizes some men the privilege of enslaving others; i.e., your argument is straight out the Animal Farm constitution. (3)"Islam was the religion of the lands where this slavery took place" because Islam was a conquering force which offered the conquered four choices: conversion, dhimmitude, slavery, or death. It was never just accidental happenstance; and when the Saudi Arabian of this, last, and next week's news is caught keeping an Indonesian foreign worker maid as a slave, it's just more of the same-old,-same-old going back a thousand years.--Mike18xx 04:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Mike18: Listen man, Islam is a system, not only a religion. It recognized slavery as an ancient institution, and also recognized it can not be stamped out just like that. It was quite necessary in those times to have slaves for the sustenance of the community and the society, for all people, including the slaves themselves. This was not the atlantic slave trade, and most slaves were taken as servants rather than labourers. Many slaves of people in high authority became muslim (converted) but remained slaves and later would go on to maintain high positions in the household and community. Haha also, would you rather be pickpocketed, or be assaulted on the street to get your wallet from you? probably neither, but i know which one i would prefer (the pickpocket). Even though this is not whats its about. Isn't western capitalist society, a slave to money and consumerism? In Islam, people are all slaves in the end, slaves of God. No matter what religion you are, we are all slaves of circumstance right, to an extent anyway.
Gmflash
Proposal to merge "Islam and Slavery" and "Arab slave trade"
I'm not seeing anything different over there; it should be folded in and replaced with a redirect.--Mike18xx 04:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree; this article is not on religion, but on a form of slave trade. The merge you propose would be as merging Christianity and Slavery and Atlantic slave trade.--Aldux 11:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Strongly disagree per Aldux --The Brain 16:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I add to the disagreement, Islam is not Arab. Many trading in Africans were not Muslim, Just like European doesnt mean Christian Arab doesnt mean Muslim. Before Islam Arabs had slavery.--Halaqah 13:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I really dont like the images and statements on this site, it is so misleading: look at this heading People playing a part in the Arab slave trade" I smell something strange---Halaqah 13:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
controversial POV have been removed, they have ZERO references are have a very racist overtone---Halaqah 02:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
PLease do not revert edits i have made without discussion
The entire section on African who helped the Arab slave trade is a POV. It has ZERO references it is clearly written with an agenda. The picture of Mansa Musa serves no purpose. It is a distortion of African history and facts. Lies come in many forms and to make these kind of statement which attack African history are libelous. And will not be tolerated. YOu have sourced Nothing and yet these claims which are so strong are put here as fact. The title alone is incorrect as it gives the notion of some conspiracy. All over Africa people were sold into slavery, it was a system for dealing with "problem people" it was not exclusively Muslim as this section clearly is stating. And the degree or extent is rumor and opinion. Imagine going into the bio of every King and Queen in Europe and putting a big section on their slaving past, True as it is no one would tolerate it. But people come here and defile the legends of Africa. yes they would have traded in enslaved Africans, there werent prisons in Africa. But how this section is written is pure perversion. Please do not attempt to reinstate it as it will just be reverted. Let the discussion happen here and bring your sources. And drop the POV. I mean the black slaves, what kind of language is that? They werent black in the eyes of the empires that captured them, they were enemies, indebt, criminals. For centuries Europe has taken advantage of the lack of Knowledge African people have on Africa, but we now know our history, because we are no longer slaves and can access our own records from our own sources. look at the racist terminology, look at the mindset. the same madness from 200 years ago---Halaqah 10:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Removed fortress
I removed the image of the Moroccan fortress. It is an anonymous village. There is no source that this place was implied in the slave trade. It is therefore gratuitous. S710 19:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I support, someone is putting many unassociated images on this page to implicate people, places in slaving--Halaqah 16:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
------
Thank God someone with an actually sane mind has come to this discussion, thank you Halaqah for speaking the truth.
Gmflash
Lets talk about whether it should be added to this articles see also section. I think it should be there as Muhammeds slave ownership is the reason for/evidence of the acceptability of slavery to Islam, which as a the dominant religion in the area for over a thousand years. This is why slavery was never banned by an arab government until the pressure from britain.Hypnosadist 02:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
ibn khaldun
just some more facts about ibn khaldun:
- His parents were from yemen and settled in spain. he grew up and lived in spain, largely away from arab culture.
- he distanced himself from arab culture, and he thought of himself as a european/spanish, rather than an actual arab, although he was really an arab. (Islam and science, religious orthodoxy and the battle for rationality - Pervez Hoodbhoy).
- He faced criticism and rejection from the majority of arab/islamic scholars and ulema, and ruling elite for a number of reasons (islam and science - pervez hoodbhoy.
1 - a lot of his views were un-islamic
2 - he grew up away from arab lands and culture, but yet held hostile attitudes towards them, his works often contained derogatory references to the crude behaviour of arabs. ie. he called them "savages and lazy" , a "savage nation with a propensity to plunder and destroy", (islam and science - Pervez Hoodbhoy)
3 - he was not seen as a pious or religious figure at all, and was often seen to be merely masquerading as a muslim.
- Taha Hussein, a modernist Egyptian scholar, describes Ibn Khaldun as "a man with an obnoxiously inflated ego and a dishonest rationalist who merely masqueraded as a muslim." (islam and science - pervez hoodbhoy)
Does this article need a name change?
Reading through this article, it is clearly about the Eastern Slave Trade in general, not just Arab Slave Trade. I think a name change needs to be considered for this article, the best option would be to change it to Oriental slave trade or Eastern slave trade. -- Parsiwan 06:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree , Eastern slave trade sounds more suitable with a re-direct for "arab slave trade". Although, the title is not so much as important, or of concern as is the content and POV. Gmflash
- Nope, I disagree; we should use the most commonnly used name, and Eastern Slave Trade is far from common.--Aldux 11:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Revision made on January 13 -- some apparent problems in displaying graphics
There are now some missing graphics. Delldot made a Revision as of 17:33, 13 January 2007 to delete vandalism and there may have been some typos that made unintentional changes.
Line 12, Sources and historiography of the slave trade,
Changed to Line 10
Did not seem to work out. Malangthon 23:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I went into the text and cleaned it up but the ogg file implant does not look at all right. I can not play it so I do not know what it is. Malangthon 23:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- It was leftover vandalism. I have removed it. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Malangthon 00:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
POV and rhetorical devices that should be addressed--point by point comments
1. Reference section: The Islamic world
- While basically acknowledging that slaves were taken, the text then describes the legal and apparently benevolent treatment of slaves based solely on the single quote from the Koran. In the text prior to this, the article writers have shown an attempt at balance yet here the approach of symmetry in contradictory view points is dropped—the one quote and the lack of POVs disputing it marks this clearly as a distinct POV.
2. Reference section: Legacy of Arab slave trade
(a) “Islam like Christianity became the context for the cultural prevalence of Arab culture,”
- This is a rhetorical device to mitigate what may be appalling by framing the topic (in this case a culture) in in a larger group.
- This is mirrored in the History of slavery article: Reference section: Slavery in Arabia, the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East:
- “The Arab world has traded in slaves like many other cultures of the region.”
- Again while the statement may be accurate it is a glaring counterpoint to the earlier phrases in that same article when referring to western slavery, to wit, the section: “Tudor, Stuart and Hanoverian England” and “Pre-industrial Europe.” In neither case is the practice of slavery couched in an historical context and is thereby not mitigated. In other words, they were acting in isolation, as it were and were distinctly different in the crimes committed. Again, a very definite POV is being projected not only in this article but elsewhere in Wikipedia amongst those topics that deal with slavery amongst the Arab countries or simply countries not of the western traditions, and dare I say it, Christian traditions.
(b) With regard to the sentence clause: “those who adopted Islam automatically adopted Arab culture in an attempt to become more Islamic.”
- Automatically? Surely you jest! The statement is simply naïve.
(c) With regard to the sentence: “The Afro-Arab relationship was riddled with complexities lined in a cultural nexus.”
- Whatever does this mean? A nexus is usually seen as a point, so how can a point in space or time line anything? Whatever. Maybe I am being pedantic but the phrasing is vacuous and needs a rethink.
(What was it that Churchill said `A Riddle Wrapped in a Mystery Inside an Enigma'. (Winston S. Churchill, October 1, 1939 on a BBC broadcast unless I am mistaken). He at least had style.)
(d) With regard to the sentences, “Some Arabs were Arab linguistically but racially African (see definition of Arab. Thus, the Arab trade in enslaved Africans was not only conducted by Asiatic and Caucasian Arabs, but also African Arabs:”
- This is now referring to a Wikipedia, article “Arabs,” which makes statements which are marked “This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.”
(e) With regard to the sentence, “Focus on the Arab slavery is previously been low due to the fact that most descendants of enslaved people are as a result of the Transatlantic slave trade for this reason the impact of the Arab trade on people of the Americas is neglegiable.”
- Beside employing fractured punctuation and spelling, the POV is made in the clearest terms! Serious need for evidence here. Who has advanced this and where can it be accessed? I vote this be either deleted or supported.
(f) With regard to the sentence, “Another reason is the legacy of the Arab Slave Trade is far less impacting than the European trade in enslaved Africans, as there are no ghettos or prison complexes in Arabian lands overflowing with African people. The African Diaspora in Arab lands has almost disappeared through inter-marriage. The resurgence of Islamaphobia some argue has brought this aspect of history to the foreground.[12].”
- Besides just being poorly written, this section is more of the same. Anyone here familiar with the story of Robert Angel (University of South Carolina) and the phrase, “Japan bashing” will recognise this ad homenim attack on anyone who disagrees with the writer’s POV. This is a very transparent attempt at stifling other POVs that would be needed to balance this account.
- Note: For those who do not know, R. Angel came up with the phrase “Japan bashing” (see article here on Wikipedia which is accurate) while president and chief executive officer of the Japan Economic Institute in Washington, D.C. The ploy was specifically an ad hominem for anyone who posed questions or made accusations that the JEI could not counter. In other words, if they had no case they abused the plaintiff. Malangthon 00:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- In total agreement with Malangthon.Hypnosadist 01:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Note: For those who do not know, R. Angel came up with the phrase “Japan bashing” (see article here on Wikipedia which is accurate) while president and chief executive officer of the Japan Economic Institute in Washington, D.C. The ploy was specifically an ad hominem for anyone who posed questions or made accusations that the JEI could not counter. In other words, if they had no case they abused the plaintiff. Malangthon 00:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Eliminated "Aims of the Slavery ..." section title
Sounds too much like the slave trade was some big organized project. --BoogaLouie 21:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Controversy over Al-Abshibi and alleged observation
- In the same period, the Egyptian scholar Al-Abshibi wrote, "When he (a black man) is hungry, he steals, and when he is sated, he fornicates".[14]
Someone added:
- "(This is however a forged hadith which has been universally dismissed by hadith experts as false. See the book "An introduction to the science of Hadith" by Suhaib Hasan for further details of this quote)"
It sound like al-Abshibi was expressing his own opinion not relating ahadith of the Prophet. I will attempt to find this book by Hasan and check--BoogaLouie 21:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
----> Reverted edits, took out propaganda
No.1 -
Recurred? – this is bias, twice is not sufficient to be described as ‘recurred’, it is obvious you are trying to slander arab and muslim ppl. out of all the slander you are trying to impose on arabs and you could only come up with 2 examples, both of which have been rebuked as false and taken out of context. This is not ‘recurred’, pls come back with at least 20 more false, lying, propaganda sources before you use the words ‘recurr’ OK home-page?
No.2 - Also why you deleted my Muqadimmah source, that quote I put in is from The Muqaddimah, the same book as the quote you put in. It is Ibn Khalduns most famous work, on history, geog etc. So, why you deleted it? Obviously to replace it with a less confronting and less insulting view of arabs so as to make the negro quote appear more insulting than the arab one. A brief review of the Muqadimmah, will reveal that Ibn Khaldun showed more insults and racism to arabs, Bedouins, etc. than to any black ppl. His works are filled with many insults to arabs, but only a few references to blacks. So, in the interest of neutrality, if you want that quote (of negroes) by Ibn Khaldun to be in the article, then my quote, also of Ibn Khaldun, and sourced from the same source as you – The Muqadimmah – his most famous work, will remain also. Don’t attempt to remove it as it will just be reverted.
No.3 -
“the Bedouin nomads, whom he called arabs" - No – he didnt call them arabs, they WERE/are arabs, Bedouin arabs , the nomads, are infact the most arab of arabs, they have been sticking to their nomadic way of life for thousands of yrs.
No.4 -
“ In addition, there are more contempoprary instances of strong opinons of racial superiority among Arab peoples - though not necessarily connected to slave trading. “
- firstly , if it is not connected to arab slave trading, it doesn’t belong in article
- secondly, Taking one very dodgy article from the guardian newspaper, with an agenda, which very well could have been fabricated, does not provide any evidence whatsoever to vilifying a whole race of 300 million arab people as racial supremacists.
Gmflash 05:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The boast of the Blacks
Should be added to show some balance and highlight the opinion about African poeple in Arab lands.--HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 14:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)