Talk:Carnage (character)

800 tons!?

I didn't realize Carnage was more than 8 times stronger than the Thing. Can someone provide a citation if this is true?

He's not; He is, however, stronger then Spider-Man and Venom combined. Last I heard, he could lift 80 tons. Bluecatcinema 12:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)carnage CAN carry 800 tons ahaahahaaa!!!

Text

I've added what I remember about Carnage's development into the article, including a bit about Kassidy and Brock meeting in prison, which is where the Symbiote exchange took place. I'm as postive as can be that this information is correct however I'm having a difficult time verifying it using the web and I can't seem to find those particular issues within my old comics. If anyone has more information about that exchange or happens to know that something I've added-in is incorrect please correct the information. -KK

Ultimate Carnage: Powers

In the ultimate universe, Carnage also seemed to somehow alter "his" image (assuming he is asexual) such as the image of Peter Parker's father, in the temporary Ultimate Carnage graphic novel. He also supposedly, in addition to life-force, absorbed the DNA of his victims. But then, how could he have gotten the DNA to assume the image of Peter Parker's father? Even Peter Parker is not a duplicate of his own father, assuming the DNA came from Peter Parker into making Carnage as is known from meiosis. -Ultimate Carnage. 2004

Parker's father's DNA was used to create the original Venom suit, and part of Venom was used in the DNA mix to create Carnage, along with that of Peter and Conner.

Suggestion

Stop deleting my additions!!! If I missed something, just add it, don't delete the whole thing!! This website will do better with more info on a few subjects. Now, I made this complaint on other pages. Answer on any of them or this one on why you are deleting extra info and making this website more general on the info.

Horrific Grammar

There is some terrible grammar in the Carnage article. Not only that, but there are instances when the information provided is obviously incomplete. I've added the Cleanup tag to the article. -Unknown

Where..?

Why is Shriek listed as Carnage's 'sister' ? She never had a symbiote, much less ever referred to herself as his sister. Rather, she referred to herself as Carnage's wife in the Maximum Carnage run. I am editing it. Shriek was also the name of one of the five symbiotes from Venom Lethal Protectoc. The Shriek you are thinking about is a diffrent one. -Unknown

There has been a mistake.Shriek is Carnage's wife

Carnage in David Michelinie's Grand Design

(From Carnage Rulzs page on the Marvel World Order site, citing article "Ahhhh, Where it all began!" By David Michelinie [1])

"I wanted to kill the guy. No, no not my editor--he signs the checks! Actually, I wanted to kill Venom. I would have, too, if not for...ah, but I'm getting ahead of myself. In the beginning, there was an alien symbiote that Spider-Man had brought back from a distant planet. Emulating a sentient, black and white costume, the creature tried eventually to bond permanently with Peter Parker, everyone's favorite web-slinging wonder. However, Spidey fought back and in the course of the battle it wound up sacrificing itself at the last moment to save Spider-Man. Then a year or two later when I began writing for the Amazing Spider-Man, a new villain was called for, and I resurrected an idea I'd begun developing in another book. As a result, I brought back the alien, joined it along with superstar artist, Todd McFarlane--introduced VENOM to the world! Things went pretty well. Writing the character was a lot of fun. But since I had planned to stay on Amazing for at least 20 to 30 years, I started thinking about the future--and I got a dangerous idea: since Venom had his first story in Amazing 300, why not have his last story in Amazing 400! Yeah! I could kill Eddie Brock off, then have the costume wander around the Marvel Universe for a year or two, joining with various other characters, before settling in on another host and becoming the "New Venom"' Imagine the nifty stories if the symbiote joined with Doctor Octopus, the Lizard, or J.Jonah Jameson! It sounded like a great idea, but then something unexpected happened---readers absolutely loved Venom! As popularity and sales rose, it became increasingly obvious that Marvel would never let me actually waste comicdom's favorite slavering symbiote. O what to do! Then came the answer: if we couldn't have the existing symbiote join with someone else, why not create another one? Since the alien was of an unknown species, it seemed reasonable that it might reproduce asexually, spawning a seed that would become a creature similar to itself. Ah, but who would join with it? Though psychotic, Eddie Brock had a deep, if twisted, sense of justice which drove him to protect innocents. (At least when he wasn't busy trying to turn Spider-Man into gut jam!) I thought that it might be an interesting contrast to the unique dichotomy to give Venom like power to a total sociopath, someone without a hint of redeeming value, a lunatic who'd eat babies for breakfast and ask for seconds. Enter Cletus Kasady. An unrepentant mass murderer, Cletus was Eddie's cell mate in prison, and thus became the eager recipient of Venom's spawn when the symbiote gave birth while breaking Eddie out. Okay, we had our new character--what would we name him? No problem I thought: we'll call him CHAOS! After all, that's what Clete wants to bring to the world right? Perfect! Until a rival company came out with a character by the same name a couple of weeks later. The artist Mark Bagley proposed Ravage! Again it was perfect! Until we found out that Marvel had a book in the works called Ravage 2099. Finally the assistant editor Eric Fien suggested casually, not knowing that he was about to make history, "How bout Carnage?" Once more, the name was perfect. And even better, this time no one else was using it! Which left us with one problem: What would the character look like? How would we maintain the visual connection to Venom while still making the new guy an individual unto himself? I posed the possibility that he could look like Venom, but that his costume would be multi-colored, constantly reflecting the chaotic nature of the man inside. Not being an artist, I didn't realize that that would put anyone who tried to draw it in a padded cell real fast! That's when Mark Bagley came up with the design we ultimately used, successfully retaining the constant change motif, but with a much more workable and effective, red and black color scheme. Seeing how Mark drew the character gave me ideas on how to use it, and between us we put together one nasty dude. And it seems the world likes nasty dudes. The first two stories featuring Carnage sold out, with no advertising, no publicity whatsoever. We assume that's because the readers found him entertaining---not admirable. (He is after all one sick puppy!) But whatever the reason, Cletus Kasady's popularity has steam rolled, rivaling that of his dad, Venom. In fact, he even headlined the biggest mega cross over in Spider-Man history, "Maximum Carnage." What will become of Clete and his living wardrobe in the future? No one knows. But I hope that this page gives you a little better of an explanation." --David Michelinie

I've removed this from the article. It doesn't seem relevant, it's badly done, and I don't have time to read it all. Can someone explain the relevancy? Tyciol 07:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the introduction to the Spider-Man: Carnage trade paperback, which reprinted his first appearance. Looks like a word for word transcription, except for the last couple of lines (which originally said, basically, "enjoy the book" -- I italicized the part that I could tell was different). It doesn't belong here but it's a legit source. - HKMARKS 23:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In a way he got his wish, though. Edie Brock isn't Venom and the symbiote was passed on to the Scorpion, thus giving "Venom like power to a total sociopath". 207.216.206.244 (talk) 09:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Spawn title

I seem to remember that solicitations originally called the character "Spawn" or something like that, but obviously conflicts with McFarlane's then debuting Spawn comic made them change his name to "Carnage". Can anyone else back this upo or even remember this? Hueysheridan 00:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)huh

I've thought that maybe the reason why it was called "spawn" was because Todd McFarlane actualy created the character. I have no data to back that up its just a theory. Jboncha (talk) 07:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Spider-Carnage

I think we should show Ben Reily as Spider-Carnage, just to put an example of Carnage's transformations. 65.103.84.79

I agree. After all, there is "Cosmic Carnage" on this article.--Shut The Eff Up 15:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I added a summary of "Web of Carnage." I don't have a graphic for it. -HKMARKS 16:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would recommend searching on Google for it, then when you find it, post it here. Thanks for the summary. 70.58.211.220

Thank you for the picture. This has been very helpful. 70.58.211.220

Ambiguous pronoun

Kasady claims he killed his father, who apparently killed the boy's mother when she tried to kill him[.]

She tried to kill whom? Cletus, or his father? JIP | Talk 08:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Cletus, I'm pretty sure. Mom: "You evil evil child! I'm gonna kill you!" Dad: "You're crazy, woman, leave that boy alone! *kills mom*" Li'l Cletus: "But I am evil! Bwahaha! *kills dad*" Something like that, anyway. -HKMARKS 13:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ultimate Carnage

I think we should stop debating whether Carnage is a symbiote or a vampiric parasite. It would be best to say that this villain would be a symbiote, for the sake of the old comics, and for our readers. 70.58.211.220

It's not a symbiote nor a parasite. A symbiote is a creature who coexists with another creature. Earth-616 Venom/Carnage are mutualist symbiotes because both organisms benefit. A parasitic symbiote coexists with a host, but does harm it. Ultimate Carnage neither coexists nor leaves a host unharmed, at least that we've seen; it just eats it, so it's a predator. Furthermore, it's not part of the Symbiote (comics) alien species. Let's not start making up science. -HKMarks 14:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)Heart worms have been know to kill dogs so it is not true that paractic don't harm a host.

Very well. I accept this proclomation. Now I'll move on to another subject. Should Carnage be given a name and gender? After all, all three of its DNA resources come from male men, and the book says Carnage is given the Ultimate treatment. I would say Carnage is an evil male predatorial creation bent on absorbing DNA to gain power. Synoposis good? 70.58.211.220more or likely the suit is asexliy meaning that is has no gender.

I don't think the dictionary definition of "symbiont" is aplicable when discussing Venom and Carnage in their various incarnations. Within the Marvel Universes, the symbiotes are usually depicted as a species of alien lifeforms that were initally shown as being straight-up mutualists, but were modified into parasites that drained their hosts of adrenaline, though that plot-line was apparently discarded after Mac Gargan became Venom. Now, neither the Ultimate versions of Venom and Carnage are members of the Symbiote (comics) alien species as shown in the 616 and similar universes. The Ultimate version of Venom, which was a failed protoplasmic cure for cancer, fits more into the parasite category because it digests its host over time. Ultimate Carnage, which was created from samples of the Venom suit still in Peter's blood, is different because it initially had no host, and later permentently assumed the shape and memories of Gwen Stacey. So Ultimate Carnage wasn't evil so much as genetically unstable, and after becoming Gwen Stacey was both female and good. 207.216.206.244 (talk) 09:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Carnage Unlimted

It is possible that the Carnage in Spider-Man Unlimited is a different carnage, because it looks completely different (Taller, with actual teeth instead of symbiote, red instead of violet). Also he can merge with Venom. And there is no proof that Carnage's host is Cletus Kasady either.

So, your point is? UnDeRsCoRe 20:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

If you have been watching Spidemran Unlimited in Yotube, then it clearly shows that Cletus is still the host of Carnage. Besides I think the producer/writers were different so get to a different version of what people expected from Carnage and Venom: Monstrous symbiotes, not humanoid symbiotes.

The original Venom and Carnage lacked monsterous details like claws, bones, and awkward shapes.

The symbiotes have most likely completely taken over their hosts, but that doesn't explain why Venom and Carnage work together. Ggctuk 12:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I posted a continuity issue between TAS and Unlimited on the respective talk page for Spider-Man Unlimited. Ggctuk 14:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ultimate Carnage is Gwen?

I have yet to read Ultimate Spider-Man #100, but this article states Gwen turns into Carnage? Is this true? If not remove it, If it is, please enlighten me. UnDeRsCoRe 23:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

She does. I read the comic. This should really get interesting. 70.58.211.220

Yes, it's quite true. It turns out the %^&*$#@!s who stole Conner's work created a Gwen Stacy clone based on the Carnage creature's absorbtion of Stacy way back #63(?). Why exactly anyone would want to make a clone of poor Gwen, let alone a murderous monster out of her, has yet to be revealed. I did however, enjoy how Mr. Fantastic handeled the situation. "Please, agh, if you could indentify the source of your mutation. Are you an alien life form? And if so, which geneology do you--?"CovertSomnophore 21:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

My personal spin on this, albeit a most likely ignorant one, would be that Carnage's absorption of Gwen's DNA led to Carnage taking on the form of Gwen. His body was completely unstable to begin with, then, as time passed and he absorbed the life force/DNA from his victims, he became vastly more stable. This may account for him being strong enough to survive his apparent death in the smoke stack. This could lead to Doctor Octopus and the FBI finding "Gwen" and her subsequent escape as Carnage. Does this make sense to anyone else or am I just retarded?Derek Chase (talk) 19:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ultimate Spider-Man game Carnage?

Does anyone have any images of Peter as Carnage in the video game? If they could post it up here, we would really appreciate it. 70.58.211.220

He looks identical to the one in the comic in every way. If you are desperate for one, you can take a screencap of the character profile at the Ultimate Spider-Man official site. - QuestionMark 20:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Profile

I placed a Profile for Ultimate Venom, but it got removed, with the comment "(per agreement at the Comics Project, Ultimate versions don't usually get a separate SHB)" placed as an explanation. Wishing to go along with the project, I have removed the profile of 'Ultimate Carnage'. I hope you will all agree that it was the right thing to do. SaliereTheFish 10:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yup. And good catch - I hadn't noticed the Ultimate Carnage SHB. CovenantD 10:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Missing Reference

This page requires a source to the statement that the cartoon would have included a few things if it had another season. IMDB has that information. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112175/trivia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.179.101.45 (talk) 01:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Return?

Is it there a sight possableity [sorry for wrong spelling] that Carnage can return? When Sentry ripped him in half, there was nothing but the suit so that means that he can return. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 360man (talk • contribs) 02:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

We don't know if he will return, however that is not the kind of tihng that should be broguht up on the talk page, the talk page should be used to discuss changes in the article, not to discuss the subject of the article, I always felt what happened to Carnage was unclear, but we won't add any "OMG HE'S GONNA LIEK RETURN!!!!" BassxForte 19:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I read somewhere that Carnage will be returning in the Anti-Venom comic or something like that. Carnage is almost obsolete; he was created to be a completely psycho version of Venom, but now that Venom's a complete psycho, he and Carnage are pretty similar (aside from their powers and goals). Who knows? Maybe if Carnage and Mac-Venom meet, they might be friends. 75.157.70.71 (talk) 03:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Importance scale

Mid importance? Carnage is more important than Man-Thing, Swamp Thing, or Dr. Fate? --Scottandrewhutchins 14:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Check links.

Under the fictional character biography, where "Venom" is listed, the link directs you to the the biotoxin venom. Not Venom(comics). Just pointing it out so someone can take care of it. Abalu 05:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Abalu

...Vaginas?

"Unlike Vaginas, Kasady can also separate parts of the symbiote costume from himself and use them as weapons." In the Powers and Abilities section.

Should be "Unlike Venom, Kasady can also separate parts of the symbiote costume from himself and use them as weapons." 142.26.133.248 (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

weakness

What are carnages weaknesses. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.58.82.14 (talk) 20:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC).carnages weaknesses are intense heat and sonic sound

Well, I like Carnage (as a mad villain), but I think it's not so good that carnage, like Venom, Spider-Man's spider-sense turn's off. That seems to be an advantage that has actually earned only th great Venom. I mean, come on Carnage is not scary. He is twisted, insane and cruel, but not the type who hides in shadows and attacks from ambush like Eddie Brock. In addition, he is not quite clear. The Symbiote is a mixture of Human Blood and Venom's Eggs. Thus it has released enormous mass (et. weapons, snares..) but abilities such as wall-crawling and Spider-sense would be rather unnatural, since he never was associated with Spider-man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.164.119.27 (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Carnage's core powers, not including the one-shot "vampirism" ability, are enhanced strength and durability beyond that of Venom, projection of tentacles (a common ability of symbiotes), the ability to morph his limbs into bladed weapons, and the ability to seperate parts of his symbiote from his body to use as projectile weapons (though they are short-lived). His weaknesses are the same as other symbiotes: intense sound and extreme heat, although he claims to have developed a resistance to sound. 173.180.89.129 (talk) 20:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Videogames

The Spider-Man videogame wasn't for the PSP.

How?

It has been stated that Eddie Brock's cancer was the only thing keeping his symbiote from draining his life force. Well, then what's keeping Casady from being drained? Bluecatcinema 12:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Carnage was created before the recon giving Eddie cancer, so who knows? 142.26.133.248 (talk) 21:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I correct myself: evidently when they gave Eddie cancer they gave Cletus cancer as well. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 21:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

But Mac Gargan doesn't have cancer, does he? 75.157.70.71 (talk) 03:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

In Carnage's background,it states that Eddie Brock lost a battle against Styx. Can this be verified? ElGuapaduro 22:01, 31 May 2007

Yes, it's true. 142.26.133.248 (talk)

Vampire powers

COMPLETELY separate from the argument over Carnage as a symbiote, New Avengers #2 says that Carnage has vampiric powers by touch. This isn't mentioned anywhere else in the mainstream Marvel universe, and it's perfectly possible that this is just an error by Bendis confusing Carnage with Ultimate Carnage (a vampire). I included it anyway, though. Anyone know whether or not someone at Marvel has mentioned this in an interview or something? Universaladdress 07:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Its because Bendis tends to get his wires crossed. Ever notice how his Spider-Man sounds just as spastic as his Teenage counterpart from the ultimate Universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.223.39.74 (talk) 00:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

What makes Carnage different from Venom is that he is far stronger than Venom, his ability to shapeshift parts of his body (ie an arm) into weapons, and that he is able to separate pieces of his symbiote (usually in the form of projectile weapons). (I've never read anywhere other than here about Carnage's ability to see from anywhere on his symbiote, but then again I've never read any of the comics with Carnage in them, only the books. Maybe its another Bendis thing?) Venom can create a razor-edge on his tentacles and shoot webbing out of his wrists, but that's about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.70.71 (talk) 03:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Probable Vandalism

This page is probably being vandalized horribly right now due to an argument going on at 4chan and the 'malcontent' parties citing this page, after modifying it. please take a few minutes to look this over, if you have a chance, and fix whatever may have been damaged.69.222.18.159 07:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Fictional Anarchist?

I'm somewhat familiar with the character, Carnage, and have read the trade paperback collecting his first appearance, but have not read any stories featuring him beyond this, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable on the subject could correct me; but when has Carnage ever been described by a work of source material as being an anarchist? Lets be clear, being an anarchist is a very specific thing. It's not belief in a negative social order. It is not mayhem, bedlem, insanity, or, dare I say it, carnage. So where does Carnage ever quote anarchist social theory, or provide an anarchic critique of economics? If source material cannot be produced that specifically cites Carnage as being an anarchist, it is inappropriate to use the term in this context. As no citation is provided, I'll be removing the character from the Category:Fictional anarchists, and will re-word the summary. I'll also be providing a citation for my edit, as I do have access to issues of the characters initial appearance and do know what his stated goals in those issues were. When a citation is provided, the wording can be reverted, and the character can be added not only to the category, but also to the List of fictional anarchists.--Cast 06:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The character Carnage (character) has just been added to the list of fictional anarchists, but the footnote acknowledges that source material does not explicitly refer to the character as an anarchist. Implied anarchic philosophy is not a proper source citation. The character will be removed from the list until a explicit citation can be provided.--Cast 19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Carnage's goal is the establishment of a world of chaos; without any rules, where anyone can do anything with impunity. That makes him more of a fictional nihilist. 75.157.120.15 (talk) 07:02, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Spider-man 4 and Venom film

There is no proof that Carnage will appear in Spider-man 4. There are only rumors and supposed news from unreliable sites such as Freeze Dried Movies. This is not a site for fan rumors.

Thank you. Its getting really annoying having to revert edits by some doofus going "Rumors say Carnage will appear in Spider-Man 4!" with no concrete evidence to the contrary.--CyberGhostface 15:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I just removed another one of these. I searched youtube - all of the videos there are obviously user-made, and none show a live action or CG Carnage, or any new footage. Richard Paez Richardpaez 02:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

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Silver Surfer?

I remember buying a comic a few years back where the silver surfer is covered with the carnage symbiote.. thingy?...

Its The Astonishing Spiderman #77, 12th september 2001....

In this issue it shows that the silver surfer once guided galactus to destroy a planet full of these red symbiotes! So does this not show that carnage wasnt created by venom? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boyler22 (talk • contribs) 12:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I would add a column about it but im useless at doin that. But i think sommeone should definitely add it on as it was a pretty good issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boyler22 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't say that at all. Just because more symbiotes exist doesn't necessarily mean that the Carnage symbiote wasn't born from the Venom one.--CyberGhostface (talk) 12:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Original research/speculation in Ultimate Carnage's section

Someone wrote in their own personal speculation, that based on the facial expression of the Carnage symbiote before it fell into the smokestack, that A.) It had realized that Peter's life was worth more than than it's, and B.) that it had willingly sacrificed itself.

First off, that's a pretty big assumption to make and its pretty farfetched as well. But even if it was plausible, it counts as original research as nothing in the comic suggested it. Wikipedia isn't a place to draw our own conclusions, its just to report the facts as we know them.--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Carnage Cosmic

In Carnage's history, an alternate-universe storylin is mentioned in the Carnage Cosmic (referred to as Cosmic Carnage) plot from What If? II #108, where Carnage bonds with the Silver Surfer. This is not a part of the official Marvel continuity, I believe, and shouldn't be listed as such. It even mentions in the article that the story doesn't match up with the actual continuity, saying " However, the Surfer and Spider-Man manage to return the symbiote to Kasady, who is subsequently encased by the Silver Surfer in an unbreakable material to spend the rest of his life reflecting on his sins. However, the material is clearly not as 'unbreakable' as the Surfer believes; when next seen, Kasady has somehow escaped from the material, although he is trapped in a cell specifically designed to contain him and stop him transforming into Carnage." I'm not terribly familiar with Wikipedia policy, so I'm not certain how to best fix this. However, I thought I'd bring it to attention. Nearphotison (talk) 16:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

After further research, it appears as though there may have been more than one storyline with Carnage Cosmic, and I may be mistaken. My memory of Marvel comic books is shaky at best, and it seems like the "official" storyline may be a bit after I stopped reading them. If anyone knows for sure the actual condition of this please correct me, if not this may just be able to be ignored. Nearphotison (talk) 16:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this lingering plothole was never officially addressed.--CyberGhostface (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Spider-Sense

Is he realy Imun? Thas is wrong!! Venom is invisbible vor peters spider-sense, because the black symbiote was bandet with his body. venom ist a dark dopplegänger. Carnage is only a Spawhn with human blood and not a real, natural Symbiote. He can not crawling on the wand and not —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.164.113.95 (talk) 04:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

...what?--CyberGhostface (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

ккКК —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.196.228.12 (talk) 13:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've never heard of Carnage being able to see from all over his symbiote or that Cletus Kasady had cancer. 75.157.107.206 (talk) 01:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

B-class assessment

Done. It is coming along nicely but there are a lot of references requested and the whole article is flagged as needing more.

One side suggestion might be reworking the "Character" section into out-of-universe tone and possibly integrating it into the publication history expanding on the character development side of that - there is some interesting material in there and it could be improved with the thinking of the creator about the character direction/philosophy. (Emperor (talk) 19:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

Expand it

Can we at least expand it a little add some pictures of Kassidy from the TV shows or from other storylines. (JoeLoeb (talk) 02:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC))

Clumsy Sentence

"Cletus Kasady has a troubled childhood, killing his grandmother by pushing her down a flight of stairs, and torturing his mother's dog who afterwards tries to kill him and is apparently beaten to the brink of death by his father, who receives no defense from Kasady during his trial."

As someone unfamiliar with the Carnage story arc, this makes no sense. In addition, it's an unweildy and overlong sentence. 203.49.232.252 (talk) 06:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

All-Seeing

The article lists one of Carnage's powers as being able to see from any part of his body, and sources this to the second issue of Spider-Man Unlimited. However, the Spider-Man: Unlimited article says that the second issue is not set within the 616 universe and is not canon. Therefore that should either be changed or removed. 75.157.115.154 (talk) 01:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

She-Carnage

Has it been mentioned that the upcoming female Carnage a reference to Ultimate Carnage being Gwen Stacy? 75.157.120.15 (talk) 06:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for that? Apologies for semi-hijacking this as well, I would also recommend when the comics come to pass, we split the Fictional Character Biography into two parts, one for Cletus Kasady and one for this new Carnage. ggctuk (2005) (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I second the motion to split the biography, but no, I have not found a relaible third-party statement corroberating that the new Carnage is a referance to Ultimate Carnage. It was an observation (which I know are discouraged on Wikipedia) I made because the Ultimate Carnage, who predates the new 616 version, also had a female host. Also, should it be mentioned that the new Carnage will go up against Anti-Venom? That was in the same article where She-Carnage was brought up. 207.216.206.244 (talk) 09:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

They didn't outright say they were going to have She-Carnge vs Anti-Venom. They left that one open-ended, as though to say, "Hmm... Anti-Venom vs Carnage... that's a good idea, I'll see where we can fit that in for the future." ggctuk (2005) (talk) 09:24, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The gist of the question was "Mac-Venom vs. She-Carnage" or "Anti-Venom vs. She-Carnage":

• IGN Comics: Where there is Carnage, there is Venom… only Carnage's mortal enemy is now the Anti-Venom. Will we see these two clash? Will we see Carnage mixing it up with Mac Gargan's Venom?
• Wells: I'd be more interested in seeing him go up against Eddie Brock. Hmmmm...

Now that Mac Gargan is back to being the Scorpion, that really only leaves Anti-Venom and/or Toxin for the kind of symbiote-vs-symbiote scenario they were discussing. Oh, and Hybrid, if they really want to resurrect him from the depths of obscurity. 207.216.206.244 (talk) 09:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

That's well and good, but he still doesn't outright say it will happen. ggctuk (2005) (talk) 12:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The synopsis of Carnage #1 is sub-par: I've seen the first few pages, and all it shows is the Doppelganger chasing an armored truck, Iron-Man chasing the Doppelganger after mistaking it for Spider-Man, and Spider-Man joining in after getting a call from Stark asking him if he took the multi-arm serum again. Apparently Carnage, new host or not, doesn't appear at all in the issue. 173.180.72.42 (talk) 03:03, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... Looks like there's no need to split the page after all. Since Cletus is still alive and the end panal shows him reaching for the symbiote and vice-versa, it appears that She-Carnage is going to be even shorter-lived than Spider-Carnage was, unless the writers decide to have She-Carnage kill him. Wells did say he dislikes the character of Cletus Kasady, after all. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 19:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Symbiote (comics) merge

See Talk:Venom (comics)#Symbiote_(comics)_merge. Sharp962 (talk) 19:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC).

Tanis Nieves

Tanis Nieves should be added to the alter-ego section alongside Cletus Kasady, seeing as she it the symbiote's new host, and she should get her own section seperate from Cletus's tenure as Carnage, seeing ash she's not notable enough yet to get her own page. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 20:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Spider man 2

Cletus Kasady is going to be back as Carnage. "Cletus Kasady is back in the Carnage symbiote and deadlier than ever! Spider-Man and Iron Man's most brutal battle comes to its fatal conclusion! Carnage has been abused, exploited and tortured by his captors...and he's out for revenge! Bodies will pile up and gore will fly if Spidey and Iron Man can't stop Cletus...and they can't stop him without the help of another mysterious symbiote..." Source: Everything You Need to Know About Marvel's Spider-Man 2

Journey to the West

In the upcoming Carnage USA, Cletus travels to Doverton, Colorado, forcing SHIELD to take action against him. Source: http://marvel.com/news/story/16101/carnage_usa. 207.216.222.107 (talk) 04:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Erik Larsen co-created Cletus Kasady

Erik Larsen was the artist for The Amazing Spider-Man #344, the issue where Cletus Kasady first appeared, and should get credit along with David Michelinie and Mark Bagley. 207.216.212.199 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Source? 71.188.28.100 (talk) 14:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Marvel's own website: http://marvel.com/comics/issue/6754/amazing_spider-man_1963_344 206.87.11.125 (talk) 11:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Well yes, but actually no. Penguin₇₈₁₂(Talk Page) 09:47, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Keep assessments about characters' status tenative

I changed the "Minimum Carnage" section to say that Kasady's "brain and mind" are believed to be irrevocably destroyed, because comic book characters rarely truly "die"--and Spider-Man's enemies are notorious for coming back, no matter how implausibly--and things in comic books are rarely what they seem. Personally--and this is just conjecture, so it's not in the article--I think that the symbiote is storing Kasady's thoughts and memories until his brain heals--just like it kept his body alive before when he was supposedly ripped apart in space. LONG STORY SHORT, no article about a comic character (unless the underlying comic-book universe is discontinued) should ever speak with "finality", because in comic books, there's no such thing. RobertGustafson (talk) 03:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

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Collected Editions

I added a table for the new solo series, but feel free to expand it to include older seriesRachelskit (talk) 01:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Could someone mention, stronger than Spider-Man and Venom?

Could someone please mention that Carnage is stronger than Spider-Man and Venom combined? Please? Thank-you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.161.217 (talk • contribs)

What's your source for this claim? DonIago (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

merge back with Cletus Kasady

NO CONSENSUS:

There is no consensus to merge Carnage (character) to Cletus Kasady. Editors are divided over whether there is sufficient sourcing and material to justify separate articles about the symbiote and the host.

Cunard (talk) 08:19, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This article pretty covers 98% of the same information as Cletus Kasady. It was a mistake to split them based on the symbiote bonding with over people. In the case of Ben Reilly and Norman Osborn neither one of their bonding lasted beyond one storyline. In addition, neither were called "Carnage" but "Spider-Carnage" and "Red-Goblin" respectively. LittleJerry (talk) 07:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know about this. For my honest opinion I think that these articles should remain separeted. I think I need to get more people involved here. Penguin7812 (talk) 13:12, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

@Nightscream: what do you think about this? Penguin7812 (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't follow the Carnage/Cletus comics much, but in glancing at the two articles, I would pose a question:

What is the word count of all the material devoted to the hosts other then Cletus?

If it's substantial, then that' can go into a Carnage article, with a highly condensed summary of the information that is found in the Cletus article. But if that word count isn't high, then just fold into a portion of the Cletus article. Nightscream (talk) 19:15, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

512 words but that is very generous. In the cases of Silver Surfer, John Jameson and Ben Reilly, They all mention how the symbiote left Cletus, tried to possess the other but was defeated and went back to Cletus. The Norman Osborn story is the only one where Cletus isn't present and was a willing host and even then Norman called himself "the Red Goblin" and the symbiote was removed by the end. This isn't like Venom where more than one person bonded with the Venom symbiote, called themselves Venom and had that identity for years (real time). So far the comics established that Carnage = Cletus Kasady + the Carnage symbiote. LittleJerry (talk) 19:55, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I personally think it’s fine seperated but I am biased about that. The Symbiote is one character. The host is another character. That fact doesn’t change. Also Cletus and Carnage have different first appearances. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 00:56, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

The symbiote and Cletus are not notable enough on their own and the two articles cover nearly 99% of the information. LittleJerry (talk) 18:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

"not notable enough on their own". That's very subjective don't you think? I could use the same argument for Roderick Kingsley / Hobgoblin and even lesser knowns than him. 99% is a bit of exaggeration. Even then the info can changed. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷

Bad comparison because one person as been the Hobgoblin for many years (Jason Macendale) and one people was canonically the real one for years (Ned Leeds). LittleJerry (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Never mind the comparison. There is has been another Carnage anyway. Even though he dubs himself Superior Carnage. I would still think that counts. There is two Carnages. Also no matter the name title code name ("Spider-Carnage", "Cosmic Carnage", "Red Goblin" and "Goblin Childe"), the story arc still involves the symbiote character. As for Cletus, he has been JUST Cletus on his own in comic books to justify an separate article. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:31, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Again, another story were the symbiote bonds with another host for one storyline. That still doesn't make this any less of a WP:CONTENTFORK LittleJerry (talk) 20:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I think I have an idea. How about turning the Fictiona character biography section into a hosts section similar to the Venom article. In the Venom article the Eddie Brock section is small compared to the Eddie Brock article. I think that this might, how do you think? Penguin7812 (talk) 05:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

No. 99.9% of Carnage stories involve Cletus Kasady. Carnage IS Cletus Kasady + symbiote. Putting other hosts on the same scale is undue weight. LittleJerry (talk) 18:01, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Not necessarily true. Definitely if you count other media adaptions where Spider-Man is Carnage instead in Ultimate Spider-Man tv show or even in alternate universes like the Ultimate Spider-Man comic books. I personally still think it's fine. Cletus is a notable enough human alter-ego on his own as is. Both Cletus and the Carnage symbiote. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

That would mean that Spider-man and Peter Parker should be split. Miles Morales is Spider-man in Ultimate and has been in other media. LittleJerry (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

No that doesn't because Parker is just one character. Carnage and Cletus are obviously two. An alien host and an human. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:31, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

This shouldn't be rocket science but this isn't a code name article. It's the symbiote character article. No matter what the host calls himself. It is still called the Carnage symbiote. Maybe it should be titled (symbiote) in pose of this article but still I don't think a merge back is necessary. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Again, they cover almost the exact same information. This violates WP:CONTENTFORK. LittleJerry (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I ain't denying that issue. I or any editor can fix that. Maybe make this article a set-index like article more like Anti-Venom (symbiote) is more a proper situation. But a merge of either one is something I disagree with. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:49, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

There isn't enough information for either that doesn't overlap. LittleJerry (talk) 02:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, another difference with Venom is that the the hosts are notable enough on their own. Mac Gargan was (as is again) the Scorpion while Flash Thompson was a long-time supporting character. Eddie Brock was Anti-Venom and Toxin for a while. Cletus Kasady's story on the other hand is entirely enveloped within Carnage. LittleJerry (talk) 02:48, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps, we could structure the article like Vulture (Marvel Comics). That article focuses on Adrian Toomes but has a section on other individuals who have taken that identity. Toomes, like Kasady, is not notable enough on his own. LittleJerry (talk) 02:54, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Toomes still is Vulture though. Different comparison as that equals one character. If Toomes had more than one supervillain alter-ego than he would already have one article of his no problem. The Carnage symbiote is a character and Cletus is a character too. Also Cletus was introduced as just himself before turning into Carnage unlike the Vulture. Along with being a titular character too. I am aware that Cletus has been just Carnage or himself on his own. So you can make an argument that he is not notable. But so far I can count two media adaptions and an alternate universe cameo of him as a separate character. He also has been separated off and on. I am not going to say that makes him notable but if he ever uses another code name outside of Carnage. Then it's a good start. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 05:14, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

We could do a different name title of two articles? More like what Marvel Database (Wikia) does it. Carnage (character) and Carnage (symbiote). But I still feel that you just prefer the merge. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 05:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

A merge, but structure the article like Vulture and Mysterio as a compromise. Anything wrong with that? Even if you can point to a few Carnage-less Cletuses in alternatives. The article source still overlap greatly and still content forks. LittleJerry (talk) 17:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't agree with it and I don't think I am going to change my mind. You're going to have to accept that. Also there is no content forks. There was a few when you said that. But after a few copyediting there is very little of the same wording. Most of all the info is different now if you actually read the articles. My consensus is in favor of oppose or retitle the two to Carnage (Cletus Kasady) / Carnage (symbiote). Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:33, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I reverted your edits. All you did with give other hosts the same weight as Cletus when they shouldn't have. As I said a hundred times, the other hosts were temporary and don't deserve the same weight. It also doesn't make Cletus any more notable of a character outside of being Carnage. LittleJerry (talk) 01:22, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Penguin7812, would you support my proposal to structure this article like Vulture (Marvel Comics) and Mysterio. Start and focus with the most notable alter-ego but also have sections on the others as well. LittleJerry (talk) 01:25, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

That was an really uncalled for revert While I didn't get an consensus. I did get a thank by the same editor you are tagging which mostly meant the consensus was probably already in my favor. I was also copyediting. Removing fancruct as well. But you just simply decided to revert everything. Now you seem to be forcing Penguin7812's opinion upon what you want. Penguin already had the idea and said what he wanted originally and you shut him down anyway. Going over and over saying he is "not notable" in a very subjective manner. I will now ping @BOZ: because I think administrator intervention is necessary with an edit conflict like this. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 04:11, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Jhenderson, is right about this. I thought he made a great job in this article, but you just reverted all of that like it was nothing, when it actually worked! Mysterio and Vulture, for my opinion isn't a really great comparison. The symbiote has mind of his own and even though it spend most of time with Cletus, it was also bonded to others like: Tanis Nevies (Scorn), Carla Unger (Superior Carnage Annual #1), Doverton, Colorado (does this counts?) and the other hosts mentioned above. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you, sorry. Penguin7812 (talk) 06:11, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

What about Mac Gargan and Scorpion (Marvel Comics) articles. Doesn't this count? Penguin7812 (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Seems to me that there might be a simple way to solve this. Are there any secondary reliable sources that discuss Cletus Kasady separately from the Carnage symbiote? If he, on his own, passes WP:GNG, then a separate article is fair. If not, merge. (My own opinion is that one article discussing them together with a much smaller section discussing other hosts might be best) --Killer Moff (talk) 21:50, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

In Venomized, Cletus Kasady was just himself in the event and was bonded to a different symbiote. In Venomized there is no actual appearance of the Carnage symbiote, only Cletus. Penguin7812 (talk) 06:03, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a primary source though, which can't be used to show notability. --Killer Moff (talk) 06:11, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, there was that time when Venom absorbed the Carnage symbiote off Kasady, and then in a Spider-Man storyline, both Peter Parker and Cletus Kasady (without the symbiote) got transported into the negative zone. Then Cletus found another symbiote and bonded to it as the Carnage's remnants absorbed the symbiote. Does this count? Penguin7812 (talk) 12:35, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Again, a primary source. Have you looked at WP:GNG and WP:PSTS? For notability purposes on Wikipedia, we need to find something that hasn't been published by Marvel. Has any reliable comics journalism site or scholarly work published anything about Kasady that doesn't relate to his being a host for the Carnage symbiote? That might help. --Killer Moff (talk) 13:12, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, in the Ultimate universe, Cletus Kasady is mentioned as a cat burglar and doesn't have anything to do with the symbiote, in MC2 the is present while Kasady is long dead and in the Ultimate Spider-Man TV series again only the symbiote is present. That's all I got. Penguin7812 (talk) 15:00, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I will check for sources when I have time, killer Moff. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 15:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I think the question more so is not if Carnage is notable. But is the Carnage symbiote notable enough to be divided from the main host article. Which I think it does. BTW here are some sources for Cletus though. It’s impossible to not talk about Carnage in the same article. One reason to change name title of Cletus Kasady to Carnage (Cletus Kasady) and I think this one to Carnage (symbiote).

• https://comicsverse.com/carnage-cletus-kasady/
• https://www.cbr.com/web-of-venom-carnage-teases-cletus-kasady-return/
• https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/10/08/venom-director-on-saving-carnage-for-the-sequel-and-casting-woody-harrelson
• https://bloody-disgusting.com/comics/3532254/venom-extras-includes-extended-cletus-kasady-carnage-tease/

Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 21:46, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the sources. I can't check them all out just now (at the office), but agree that it's impossible to speak about Kasady without Carnage. Carnage (Cletus Kasady) does seem to be a much better option. What I would ay is that any sources that discuss the symbiote as it's own entity are probably equally few and far between, and can be covered as part of any mixed article. I don't see any pressing need for separate articles, and suggest that anything else be redirected to a main article, under whatever title consensus deems fit. --Killer Moff (talk) 13:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I would slightly disagree with the just one character redirection idea still. I feel that the Symbiote has enough hosts to be divided. There is lot of sources on just the Red Goblin event on its own. Maybe this seems like a divided paradox on the whole one character/ two character debate. But that’s mainly my reason so far. Also I should note that I think I am pretty sure Eddie Brock had his own article even before becoming host to Anti-Venom and Toxin Symbiote too. But don’t quote me on that. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 03:26, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the merger Template at the top of the article. I only need a permission. Penguin7812 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Here’s a reliable source summary on all the Symbiote’s host. Again it is noted that Cletus is the most well known and recurring host for the Symbiote. But the Symbiote has been around as much if not more that Cletus.

• https://screenrant.com/carnage-characters-people-cletus-kasady-marvel-trivia/
• https://www.cbr.com/carnage-symbiote-other-hosts/

Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 03:34, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Summoned by the RfC bot...but this doesn't quite look like an RfC? DonIago (talk) 05:26, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.