Talk:Bongbong Marcos/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Request to delete this article or modify not with authors with black propaganda

Description is disgracing and discrediting. Some sources used was from Rappler, OPS etc. But when Bongbong shows his documents from Oxford University, it was immediately claimed false documents even when it came from the said university. This person is the newly elect President in our country but the details posted here is quite absurd. post sources from the University instead, not from local sources in Philippines who didn't went to check personally. Stop spreading hate and fake news. learn to Respect. Hirayapage (talk) 07:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Hirayapage: This article is not going to be deleted on those grounds. Rappler is also generally reliable as determined by Wikipedia's community, and there's no reason for us to discredit it. If you want us to include the information you're claiming to have, provide a link to a reliable source. Chlod (say hi!) 07:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully, please see WP:NPOV. You obviously have strong opinions on the Marcos family (which is your right) but you need to edit Wikipedia with a neutral point of view. As Chlod stated, we follow reliable sources and do not use our own opinions in making edits (to the extent that is possible). ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 18:47, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

This reference from Rappler: has a statement directly from Oxford University itself, and not from the alumni association of Oxford graduates in the Philippines. I suppose this is exactly what you are looking for? Howard the Duck (talk) 19:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Inappropriate description.

The way of describing his father was obviously biased and not appropriate. He’s not just a dictator or kleptocrat. He also give many contributions here in the Philippines. 152.32.112.128 (talk) 13:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Dictators should be called as they are, dictator/kleptocrat, regardless of their achievements. Then the said "achievements" could only be cited. Proffypaul (talk) 02:50, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

This is true. The terms used sounded inappropriate for a President in our country who has proven his leadership. He's been accused of stealing government money with no proof. He was rich even when he became our President because he is a well known lawyer of a rich family. Also, Philippines in his time doesn't have much resources to be stolen by someone in authority. Yes, he is a dictator for proclaiming Martial law. This is because of the Communist party, rebellion who wants to take over the government. If he didn't proclaimed Martial law, we will not have this kind of freedom in our country. We should know first why Martial law is necessary. Also, he did consult his cabinet members and it is deemed necessary for it that time. Hirayapage (talk) 14:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Please provide sources for your claims. RLS 84 (talk) 19:15, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2022

Jbmalix (talk) 23:35, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Jbmalix (talk) 23:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Chlod (say hi!) 23:38, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

FAQs

This talk page should have an FAQ. We keep getting the same requests almost everyday, as if the ones making the requests don't even backread. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck: Would be in support of having an FAQ. Not gonna make assumptions on how effective it will be (but I'm hoping that it would be). Perhaps an edit notice pointing users to the FAQ would also be good? Chlod (say hi!) 23:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I added a FAQ box to the top of this talk page with what I believe is the most asked question at the moment. Feel free to add any more questions. Ganmatthew (talk) 02:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Removal of 'kleptocrat' as a descriptor of Ferdinand Marcos

Hi! @El cid, el campeador I've noticed that you removed the descriptor "kleptocrat" from Ferdinand Marcos in the intro to this article? Could you provide a reason for doing so as as a Wiki Request for Comment has also approved of the usage of it as a descriptor. At the moment I will take this edit in good faith. But if I don't receive a reply I will revert the edit. Thanks!--Firekiino (talk) 07:29, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello - I think my edit summary explains it, but basically, we don’t need to use every descriptor for Ferdinand when we introduce him, since we are wiki-linking his name. For example, see MacKenzie Scott. It wikilinks to Jeff Bezos, without listing every title of him. As I noted in my edit summary, “dictator” already has negative connotations without the added “kleptocrat” title. I.e it gets the point across. If there is a consensus to include it I won’t stand in the way, but this is my reasoning. Thanks for reaching out, cheers! ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 12:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi again! The term is also added to most mentions of him that I've seen as well so I also thought it would be best to keep consistency in that sense. I believe a consensus was indeed reached together with a Request for comment was also done in the Ferdinand Marcos talk page. You can check it here Talk:Ferdinand Marcos#RfC for the use of the term "kleptocrat" in Wikivoice on a political figure. If this looks good to you as well then I'll revert the change when I can. Thanks again! Firekiino (talk) 16:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I believe the consensus at the RFC was to list Marcos as a kleptocrat and a dictator on the article about himself; now if that applies to other articles is a different question altogether, but at least "dictator" is unquestionable: the president ruled without a legislature for 8 years. Even dictators such as the Kim dynasty of North Korea have rubber-stamp parliaments "elected" "regularly". Howard the Duck (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

That is my opinion on the RfC as well. But my change was really only stylistic - it's easier to read two titles as opposed to three and I think the two got the story across fine (considering the negative connotation of dictator, kleptocrat is not needed in this article). But I have no huge issue with including it and do not dispute that Ferdinand was such. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 18:43, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with Howard the Duck and El cid, el campeador about the RFC's applicability to this page, or lack thereof. I think the dictator and kleptocrat descriptors need to be moved down a paragraph and contextualized properly otherwise we run the risk of turning off Pinoy from reading the whole article - and learning about Bongbong's historical distortions. MOS:FIRST says the first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is. CutePeach (talk) 14:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Why would you care about "turning off Pinoy" (sic)? We are in the business of facts and truth here in Wikipedia, no matter how audiences feel. -Object404 (talk) 06:51, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah I see... risk of turning them off from reading the entire article... well I'm sorry, but facts are facts. Do you propose we dilute them? -Object404 (talk) 06:53, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Do we propose making Adolf Hitler "more palatable" by removing mentions of the Holocaust from the first paragraph? Ganmatthew (talk) 07:25, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 19 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. 4 support, 5 defer, 10 opposed. It can be re-opened at a later time with regards to the defer vote. (non-admin closure) Ganmatthew (talk) 15:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

---

Bongbong Marcos → Ferdinand Marcos Jr. – The main title header of this article was moved from Ferdinand Marcos Jr. to Bongbong Marcos in June 2015 and has not been discussed in nearly seven years. Unlike official use of the name Jimmy Carter, rather than "James Carter" or Bill Clinton, rather than "William Clinton", key outlets, such as The New York Times, The Guardian, ABC News or Human Rights Watch have referenced him as Ferdinand Jr., rather than as "Bongbong". Among Wikipedias, Dutch Wikipedia, French Wikipedia, German Wikipedia, Italian Wikipedia and Polish Wikipedia also use "Ferdinand Marcos Jr." as their main header. On the other hand, BBC and CBS News have used the form Ferdinand "Bongbong" Marcos Jr.. If consensus develops for its use, I would also support the extended form. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Basing it on other wikis is a bit of a bad idea for moving, not only because other wikis may have different article titling conventions, but the sample provided above doesn't provide the full picture. According to a Wikidata headcount, 26 wikis (including the Spanish Wikipedia, Catalan Wikipedia, Finnish Wikipedia, Japanese Wikipedia, Russian Wikipedia and Wikipedias for Philippine languages, namely Tagalog Wikipedia (most used spoken language in the Philippines), Winaray Wikipedia, and Cebuano Wikipedia) use the current title, 27 if you count Simple English Wikipedia. In contrast, there are only 10 wikis that use the official name, including those you've already mentioned above. Chlod (say hi!) 20:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

English Wikipedia has an overwhelming presence and, upon creating an entry, many Wikipedias tend to copy its existing main title header. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support - As it's his actual name. GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
• Defer - The current most common name used is the one in the title, although of course that's from before he gets inaugurated. I submit that we won't be sure what the convention will be until maybe two months after inauguration, assuming all happens as currently projected. I think it's wisest to defer this conversation until, say, two months after, on 30 August 2022. - Thundersub (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - Wikipedia uses the English common name.Joe Biden is not Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. Twa0726 (talk) 02:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I've placed in my statement the current convention for Philippine president articles in the English Wikipedia. They use their legal name so unless we start changing the rest of them it may be good to follow the convention. Sabaybayin (talk) 10:47, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Part of WP:COMMONNAME tells us to consider which name is in the encyclopedic register. In this case, we have two reasonably common alternatives, and per this aspect of WP:TITLEVAR we should choose the more encyclopedic alternative - which is clearly his actual name, rather than his nickname. BilledMammal (talk) 07:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - Bongbong Marcos is already widely used in media. Ferdinand Marcos Jr. can easily be confused with his namesake father, who was also a president. Tagaaplaya (talk) 12:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  I agree it may be confused but a simple template (Not to be confused with) may help or we can use the extended version. Sabaybayin (talk) 10:45, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - Bongbong Marcos is more widely used than Ferdinand Marcos Jr. That said, he is commonly known as BBM compared to FMJ (which is extremely rarely used). RPC7778 (talk) 14:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  We can always use the redirect for this purpose. The discussion is what the title of the article should be. Sabaybayin (talk) 10:43, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose how about this article example Vice Ganda and Susan Roces Bongbong Marcos is commonly use by the media. HurricaneEdgar 00:00, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Vice Ganda and Susan Roces are stage names. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - it is his commonly known name, and Ferdinand Marcos, Jr. would lead to confusion with his father, Ferdinand Marcos, Sr. -Object404 (talk) 04:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - The nickname Bongbong is more recognizable than his real name. Wikipedia articles generally use the most commonly used name (e.g. Bill Clinton instead of William Clinton). Ryme071 (talk) 16:06, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Ryme071. This is the most common name used in the media. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 21:29, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
• Defer as per Thundersub, but for me it should be at least a year. Benigno Aquino III was at Noynoy Aquino when he became president. Local WP:RS, which is has overwhelming usage here than foreign ones, consistently use "Bongbong" for now, but that's not a guarantee once he becomes president. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:35, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, since I have heard the nickname "Bongbong" be use more often than his formal name. After all, as other people here have said, we talk of "Jimmy Carter" instead of "James Carter", "Bill Clinton" instead of "William Clinton", "Joe Biden" instead of "Joseph Biden", and so forth. SleepTrain456 (talk) 23:06, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Those examples aren't equivalent; the full names of those presidents are almost never used, while Ferdinand Marcos Jr. is commonly used. BilledMammal (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
• Defer - From what I've seen, international media outlets are more likely to refer to Bongbong Marcos by his full name, likely as it is formal, while local media are more likely to refer to him as Bongbong, likely as it is more commonly used in the local setting. However, this is not very consistent either, since most local media will alternate between referring to him as "Bongbong", "Marcos Jr", or simply "Marcos". It is likely that their choice of what they choose to refer to him is editorial discretion. Anyway, I agree with Howard and Thundersub that this should be deferred until after inauguration. Ganmatthew (talk) 05:07, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Support - Looking at the current convention of all Philippine presidents we can see that of the presidents that have nicknames that are not their initials (e.g GMA) or not mononyms (such as Digong). I support this move because it will maintain consistency among Philippine President pages. Relevant examples I believe are:

CASE 1: Corazon Aquino instead of Cory Aquino

CASE 2: Benigno Aquino III instead of Noynoy Aquino

CASE 3: Joseph Estrada instead of Erap Estrada

CASE 4: Fidel V. Ramos instead of Eddie Ramos

I would support either Ferdinand Marcos Jr. or the extended Ferdinand "Bongbong" Marcos Jr in line with the conventions of the Philippine English Wikipedia. Sabaybayin (talk) 10:42, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Also note that the four cases you mentioned are actually still their public names, which can be considered as a nickname of their actual names.

• Maria Corazon Sumulong C. Aquino - Corazon Aquino - Cory Aquino
• Benigno Simeon C. Aquino III - Benigno Aquino III - Noynoy Aquino
• Jose Marcelo Ejercito - Joseph Estrada - Erap
• Fidel V. Ramos - Eddie Ramos/FVR Ganmatthew (talk) 11:08, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Tambayan Philippines has been notified of this discussion. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 11:02, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Politics has been notified of this discussion. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 11:02, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 11:02, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, Bongbong Marcos is the clear common name, to the point where he is often simply referred to as BBM. CMD (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• "Defer" - It seems that there's no general consensus among the general press, I mean local and foreign, about what to use. It might take a while for a convention to be established. Sparryx (talk) 04:43, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Showiecz (talk) 18:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
• Comment i would to kept this current title per WP:NICKNAME

example:

• The Undertaker, not Mark William Calaway.
• 50 Cent, not Curtis James Jackson III.
• Lady Gaga, not Stefani Germanotta.
• Honcho (rapper), not Mark Ezekiel Maglasang.

HurricaneEdgar 10:05, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• Defer per the reasons stated by Howard and Thundersub. Itsquietuptown ✉️📜 11:10, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• I saw this being closed earlier by User:KevinNov3 but has since been reopened? What gives? Howard the Duck (talk) 11:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• Defer - As per statements by Howard the Duck and Thundersub. ThePinoyMan (talk) 11:26, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Very clear common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:29, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2022

49.150.46.185 (talk) 23:15, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

17th President Of the Republic of the phillipines

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. - FlightTime (open channel) 23:16, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

add president elect on it

add a president elect and replace (former senator of the Philippines) 136.158.51.64 (talk) 11:04, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi i believe it already says president-elect? Could you provide a reason for wanting to remove former senator of the Philippines? He is still a former senator even if he is now president-elect. Firekiino (talk) 11:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

remove "presumptive"

he already is a president-elect Gooskitzo (talk) 11:40, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi if youve read the article recently, the world presumptive is already gone. Rather it was removed several hours ago. Firekiino (talk) 12:03, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

the changes arent visible in google

presumptive is still there, and the thing below his name is still "former senator of the Philippines" instead of 'president elect of the Philippines" Gooskitzo (talk) 01:58, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you should direct your concern to google itself? The edit has already been made on wikipedia. Its up to google to update it on their side Firekiino (talk) 02:28, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

How on earth is this Wikipedia's problem? Howard the Duck (talk) 02:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2022

Ydor Mangaba Toberos (talk) 03:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC) please let me edit this semi-protected wikipedia

Philippines Ydor Mangaba Toberos (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Chlod (say hi!) 03:33, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

President

Bongbong 2001:4452:22C:FD00:2967:999:5A03:207D (talk) 05:28, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

See the previous discussion regarding Why no "President-elect" label in infobox? for more information Sabaybayin (talk) 07:32, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

President Ydor Mangaba Toberos (talk) 03:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Unexplained content removal

Hello :@Docetrece:! I noticed you made a recent edit that removed some content from the article, but you did not provide an explanation for the edit? Could you kindly provide a reason so it may be discussed to help improve the article? Thanks!Firekiino (talk) 15:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Request for Page Protection

This page needs to request for page protection immediately. The page history has devolved into an ugly tug-of-war between both supporters and enemies of the subject. This has to stop. It has persisted over the years. Temporary semi-protection is definitely not enough given how long this has persisted. I am opting for indefinite semi-protection. --Arquenevis (talk) 12:05, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Data saved discredits his family background, educations and achievements. It should be fixed first prior having page protection. Hirayapage (talk) 14:02, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

ALL OF THE RESOURCES ARE BIASED Jumark27 (talk) 12:46, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Jumark27! Could you kindly list down which exactly which sources you find biased in the article? Most of the currently used sources in the article comply with WP:RS. However if you would like to contest this do bring up sufficient and reliable sourcing that proves currently used sources are biased so that appropriate action can be taken. You might also wish to contest the resources reliability hereWP:RS as well. Thanks and happy editing Firekiino (talk) 13:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Bongbong Marcos

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Bongbong Marcos's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "proclamation-may25":

• From 2022 Philippine presidential election: Andrade, Jeannette I.; Aurelio, Julie M. (May 26, 2022). "Congress proclaims Marcos, Duterte". Philippine Daily Inquirer. Retrieved May 26, 2022.
• From Bongbong Marcos 2022 presidential campaign: Andrade, Jeannette I.; Aurelio, Julie M. (May 26, 2022). "Congress proclaims Marcos, Duterte". Philippine Daily Inquirer. Retrieved May 29, 2022.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 22:13, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Youtuber

Bong Bong Marcos is also a Youtuber with a following where he regularly posts. Why is the youtube infobox missing?64.53.212.155 (talk) 16:54, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah these should have never been removed from the infobox, and have something about this in the prose as well. His Youtube vlogs have been instrumental to his election. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I recall this was argued against by @Princess Faye at User talk:Nuwordlife0rder#YouTube personality by politician, who argued that Template:Infobox YouTube personality is only meant for articles about YouTube personalities.

That being said, I'm not familiar if there are any actual guidelines regarding this. Ganmatthew (talk) 04:33, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck: What you mean is that his YouTube channel is being used for the election only? So it means that he is not really a YouTube personality or YouTuber. GMA Network, ABS-CBN, TV5 and other celebrity individuals has their own YouTube channels, but why we did not include their YouTube channels to their respectively articles? I expected that PewDiePie is the best example of being a YouTuber. But I think that a YouTube channel that being used for political purposes doesn't really make you a YouTuber. Celebrities like Michael V. is the best example of being an actor and a YouTuber as well. —Princess Faye ^{(my talk)} 07:31, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if this clarifies things, but he has used his channel for non-political content several times, and he has uploaded even before the 2022 elections. Itsquietuptown ✉️📜 17:03, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck and Ganmatthew: Are there any significant reasons about him to say that he is really a YouTuber, what are those? What I mean is, you can really upload any videos you want to YouTube, but it is not a reason to call you a YouTuber. —Princess Faye ^{(my talk)} 07:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

My view on this is more of an abstain, since while I do agree that his vlogs on his YouTube channel were instrumental to his presidential campaign and the subsequent election win, I do agree as well that the infobox is more suited to personalities that are more "full-time" into YouTube as a profession. Ganmatthew (talk) 14:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I haven't checked the rules for the Youtuber infobox, but at the very least his Youtube channel has to be discussed in prose. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Stick to a single infobox image

As can be seen by the above edit request and the multitudes of unilateral photo changes done today and a bit of yesterday (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, not counting reverts), perhaps we might need to double-down on keeping a specific photo. At this rate, we'll have started an edit war over which photo to use. Can editors here agree to stick to a single file? Chlod (say hi!) 15:41, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I like the recent infobox image. The latest revert regarding the infobox image was due to it being a copyvio. At the time being we should stick with the current infobox image until an official portrait (non copyvio) is found. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 16:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2022

I want to replace the Picture with this one, the Unofficial Portrait of Ferdinand Romualdez Marcos. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1riZEH95dF7iKCpUNVCjXyZRd9rCojT1Q/view?usp=drivesdk Argus123777 (talk) 05:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I want to replace the Picture with this one, the Unofficial Portrait of Ferdinand Romualdez Marcos. Argus123777 (talk) 05:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: (1) The image is inaccessible. (2) Only images that are released under a free license may be used. See COM:LICENSING for more information. If the image is not yours nor is it released under a free license, do not upload the image. Chlod (say hi!) 05:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

• What I think should be changed:

Under section: "During this term, one of the important pieces of legislation he authored was the Philippine Archipelagic Baselines Law, or Republic Act No. 9522"

• Why it should be changed:

The statement is patently false

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Gretabini (talk) 13:38, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

References

 Done @Gretabini: In the future, please follow the "change X to Y" format so that other editors may find it easier to answer your edit request. Chlod (say hi!) 13:46, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I am literally new here will do better next time :) Gretabini (talk) 13:52, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Changing the article name from "Bongbong Marcos" to Ferdinand Marcos Jr.

His official name is Ferdinand Romualdez Marcos Jr. It is very obvious that this is also used in government official documents and other matter. It is more formal than "Bongbong". Serene Reel (talk) 05:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I believe there was a recent discussion to move the article to "Ferdinand Marcos Jr". However, the consensus was that the article would not be moved. You can check out the discussion here Firekiino (talk) 06:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The rest of the world knows him as Ferdinand Marcos Jr.. Wikipedia is an international page. You have to consider that. 49.146.42.236 (talk) 19:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The previous RM considered that as discussants involved both those within and outside the Philippines. FWIW, I suppose another RM can be done in the future. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Howard the Duck. You clearly misrepresent the situation. 49.146.42.236 (talk) 14:34, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

No. the Pres. Joe Biden article is named Joe Biden, not Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. -Object404 (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Writer palpak

Walang kwentang writer nag sulat nito Kay pbbm wrong info about the dictadorship and about did not graduate maraming mali 103.62.153.99 (talk) 23:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Paanong walang kwenta? Basahin mo ng maayos yung mga source na nakalagay, kung mali yong mga iyon, maghanap ka ng source na idedepensa ang sinabi mo. Kung wala kang mahanap, then leave it as is. (How can it be useless? Read the sources listed carefully, if they are wrong, find a source that will defend what you said. If you can't find anything, then leave it as is.) SeanJ 2007 (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Tapos sasabihin mo na palpak yung writer na nagsulat nito, excuse me, galing sa mga sources ang mga nakalagay sa article ni BBM, hindi basta basta kami maglalagay ng impormasyon na walang katotohanan, pakitignan ang WP:CS, ito ang ginagamit natin na parang ebidensya sa mga impormasyon na nakalagay dito sa Wikipedia. (Then you will say that the writer who wrote this is sloppy, excuse me, the information in BBM's article comes from sources, we don't just put information that is not true, please look at WP:CS, this is what is used as evidence in the information posted here on Wikipedia.) SeanJ 2007 (talk) 15:02, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

WP:DENY and move on. Chlod (say hi!) 15:12, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Reinstating "dictator" in the lead paragraph

There's been a slow edit war about whether or not to mention "dictator" to describe Bongbong's father in the lead paragraph sentence establishing Bongbong as the son. (See last edit to this effect.) There's also been a WP:NPOV/N discussion as well. In light of this, I started this talk page section to explain why I think it is okay to include this word and why I have done so.

When Bongbong Marcos is discussed or mentioned in reliable sources, he is often referred to as the son of a/the dictator, and the word "president" usually doesn't even appear to describe the father in these same sources. To demonstrate, the following is a sample list of ten random articles from different reliable sources in recent months quoting the sentence where Bongbong is introduced and described as the "son of dictator Marcos" (with variants). To avoid local bias, I avoided any Philippine news/sources.

• "Marcos Jr. is the son of the late dictator Ferdinand Marcos Sr., under whose regime thousands of political opponents were tortured." —2nd paragraph of Business Insider article, 30 Sep 2022.
• "Human rights activists in the Philippines have expressed outrage over a move by President Ferdinand “Bongbong” Marcos Jr. to proclaim the birthday of his late father, the former dictator Ferdinand E. Marcos, a special holiday in the family’s home province." —1st paragraph of The Diplomat article, 12 September 2022.
• "The 64-year-old son of the disgraced dictator Ferdinand Marcos won a landslide victory in the race for the presidency in May, easily beating off a challenge from then Vice President Leni Robredo." —2nd paragraph of Al Jazeera article, 25 Jul7 2022.
• "That’s forcing Marcos Jr., the only son of late dictator Ferdinand Marcos, to take a different path." —2nd paragraph of The Japan Times article, 8 July 2022.
• "Newly-elected Philippines President Ferdinand 'Bongbong' Marcos Jr., the son and namesake of the late dictator Ferdinand Marcos, delivers a speech during the inauguration ceremony at the National Museum in Manila, Philippines, June 30, 2022." —caption of leading image in Reuters article, 16 July 2022.
• "A former guerrilla fighter is elected president in Colombia, and Filipinos choose Bongbong Marcos, the son of a dictator, to lead their country." —lead sentence of The Nation article, 13 July 2022
• "Ferdinand Marcos Jr., the namesake of the late dictator, was sworn in as the country's president on June 30 at the National Museum, which served as the legislative building when the senior Marcos was in power." —1st paragraph of Nikkei Asia article, 17 July 2022.
• "How a Dictator's Son Won Over the Philippines" —title of Bloomberg video, 8 September 2022
• "In the run-up to the 2022 presidential elections, Marcos Jr. — the son and namesake of the former dictator who ruled the Philippines from 1965 to 1986 — formed a political alliance with Sara Duterte, daughter of former President Duterte." —intro of Deutsche Welle article, 19 Jul 2022
• "Both President Ferdinand “Bongbong” Marcos Jr., son and namesake of the famous dictator, and Vice President Sarah Duterte, daughter of Mr. Duterte, come from political families that are openly hostile toward journalists." —intro of The Christian Science Monitor article, 25 July 2022

The two reasons that I can see why some editors want to avoid mentioning "dictator" in the intro is because of WP:IMPARTIAL and WP:COATRACK. I don't think COATRACK really applies because this is an essay, not a policy/guideline, and it refers to the whole article. Because Bongbong is a very notable person, a single mention of "dictator" to refer to the father cannot reasonably be construed as making the whole article a coatrack for the father.

As for the impartial tone argument, I disagree with this sentiment because if even reliable sources (as can be seen in the sample list of quotes above) themselves introduce Bongbong as the "son of a/the dictator", why shouldn't Wikipedia? Wikipedia, as a tertiary source, places heavy emphasis on what secondary (and some primary sources) say and if those secondary sources mention "dictator" (which is a pretty neutral and very established term to describe Marcos Sr. himself) when mentioning Bongbong, then I think omitting the word actually does a great disservice to our readers. —seav (talk) 14:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support usage of "dictator" in reference to Marcos Sr. in lead paragraph. It is an impartial factual term. -Object404 (talk) 14:52, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - I agree that the use of dictator here is both neutral and essential to the discourse (that is, it is part of what makes both Sr. and Jr. notable figures, aside from having occupied their office). Removing it is a case of WP:FALSEBALANCE and then some, in my opinion. - Chieharumachi (talk) 15:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - support usage of the term "dictator", it is a factual and impartial term used by historians, mass media, and academic sources. That Mr. Marcos was a dictator is simply an irrefutable fact. Strongly disagree that coatrack applies here to prevent Wikipedia editors from using the term dictator. Being a dictator and plunderer is what makes makes Mr. Marcos Sr. notable and being the son of a dictator and plunderer is frequently used by reliable sources to describe Mr. Marcos Jr. -Crisantom (talk) 04:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose I disagree that this article should be written under WP:IMPARTIAL tone even if sourced.

For comparison.

Serdar Gurbangulyýewiç Berdimuhamedow[a] (born 22 September 1981) is the third and current president of Turkmenistan, serving since 19 March 2022. Berdimuhamedow had previously served in several other positions within the government of his father, president Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow. In 2021, he became one of several deputy chairmen in the Cabinet of Ministers of Turkmenistan. Having won 73 percent of the vote in the 2022 Turkmenistan presidential election, considered to be neither free nor fair,[1] he succeeded his father's 15-year-long authoritarian tenure as president. (Serdar Berdimuhamedow)

• Turkmenistan dictator's son wins presidential vote; — ABS-CBN (AP)
• Turkmenistan swears in dictator’s son as new president — Eurasiatimes
• Turkmenistan strongman's son wins presidential vote — The Guardian HurricaneEdgar 11:28, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  WP:IMPARTIAL's first sentence says "Wikipedia describes disputes". Can you point to reliable sources that say that characterizing Marcos as a dictator is in dispute? At this point it's pretty much established by decades of reliable sources that the father is indeed a dictator. Omitting that in the name of "impartiality" betrays Wikipedia's role as a summation of what secondary sources say. And bringing up the Turkmenistan example is basically another "other stuff exists" argument: what other articles do or don't do doesn't really mean much in the context of the present article barring actual precedent or an actual policy or guideline (and no, I don't think IMPARTIAL applies to support your argument). —seav (talk) 23:49, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support - it's a well established and published fact. Call a spade a spade. Tagaaplaya (talk) 04:53, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Widely known fact even in academic circles, would be far fetched to call it "an opinion" or "disputed". Lone oppose seems unconvincing. Attempting to argue that Marcos Sr. isn't a dictator and call the discussion surrounding that a dispute is baffling given contemporary evidence. Chlod (say hi!) 05:06, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - It is undisputed history that the elder Marcos was a dictator and the sources cited above underscore that reality. WP:IMPARTIAL should not be used to whittle away facts. In this case, I feel that soft-pedaling the label "dictator" would create partiality. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 19:52, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Alma Matter

Hello I started a section like this also in Imee Marcos' page but that's beside the point. So I'm wondering what you guys think about the usage of alma mater to classify Bongbong's attendance but not necessarily graduation from the listed universities. Given the currently used sources within the article, Marcos did not graduate from Wharton and tecnicially did not graduate from Oxford, but was given a special diploma. I reviewed other pages of prominent people who dropped out of university such as Mark Zuckerberg, BIll gates, and Steve Jobs. In all three pages their attendance at their respective universities seems to be labeled under the education info box section instead of Alma Matter. Editors also added notes as to whether the individual simply attended class in the university and/or dropped out. Would it be more appropriate to move Marcos' alma mater info to his education section in the infobox instead like in the zuckerberg, jobs or gates articles? Firekiino (talk) 05:28, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The person who loves reading (talk) 01:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

PBBM can speak Ilocano

Please change "and does not speak the Ilocano language.[229]" to "can speak the Ilocano language. He used the dialect when he campaigned in Ilocos."

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Thank you!

This is the proof that he can speak and understand the local language. Proof that PBBM can speak Ilocano Elialonzocruz (talk) 01:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The person who loves reading (talk) 01:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Hello. In this interview, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL_3-tnXcVg&t=1040s, Bongbong Marcos himself admitted that he was bad at speaking Ilocano. He is most likely reading from a teleprompter in the video you shared above. Regards, -Object404 (talk) 02:31, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 April 2023

Please change he does not speak Ilocano to he can speak Ilocano. Elialonzocruz (talk) 01:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The person who loves reading (talk) 01:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Hello. In this interview, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL_3-tnXcVg&t=1040s, Bongbong Marcos himself admitted that he was bad at speaking Ilocano. He is most likely reading from a teleprompter in the video you shared above. Regards, -Object404 (talk) 02:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)