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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2600:4040:9126:ec00:59f4:7781:ec5d:3cd3 (talk) at 17:26, 26 October 2023 (→More specific description of AT in intro: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Woodman & Moore 2012

This systematic review is what the NHS statement on AT seems to be based on. If it's good enough for the NHS it should be enough for Wikipedia. 107.127.46.10 (talk) 03:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any reason this review is left out but a now 20 year old one by Ernst is cited? There have been a number of trials since the 2003 Ernst review, most notable Little 2008 published in the BMJ which is cited in Woodman & Moore (2012). Not to mention Ernst himself has written more favorably about the AT since 2003 including commenting on the systematic reviews of Klein (2014) and Woodman & Moore (2012) citing continued skepticism unless you are a musician or have back pain (in light of the aforementioned reviews missing from the wiki). 2600:4040:9129:9200:9056:7758:DD78:DEAD (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments of edits

It seems the problem is that editors won't allow any of the evidence in support of the Alexander technique of which there is a fair amount. It is ironic that many editors are complaining of POV issues in the edits that they're denying but at the same time are pushing a skeptical POV by cherry picking inclusion of certain research and systematic review. Many of the editors disclose their bias in their own talk pages or have been forced to anyway. By all means include all of the skeptical evidence but also include the evidence for. Especially in cases where it is not a medical application, i.e. drama, music and dance in higher education. 107.127.46.32 (talk) 16:13, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any reliable source that's missing? Bon courage (talk) 16:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here’s a source that lists Alexander Technique as a complementary therapy and not alternative therapy. AT teachers do not claim to cure illness or replace modern medicine, there’s no evidence to suggest otherwise.https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/complementary-alternative-or-integrative-health-whats-in-a-name Murbanek97 (talk) 06:06, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some editors seem to have a blanket definition of AM/CM/IM as quackery and little discrimination for what is what unfortunately. 2600:4040:9129:9200:9056:7758:DD78:DEAD (talk) 16:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence for AT being used as an Alternative for any mainstream treatment

Subject. Relevant opening sentence: When used "in place of" conventional medicine, it's considered "alternative".

A definition of AM has no place in the article, especially as AT isn't AM. 2600:4040:9126:6300:5D24:53A0:7C60:4D5E (talk) 13:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources identify it as a form of alternative medicine. End of story. Editorial opinions do not trump that fact. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are just as many RSs that identify it as an awareness/mindfulness/educational method; there is no consensus on this point, even among AT practitioners, and the voice of Wikipedia is being used (mainly by vocal AM skeptics) to make it seem as if there is one on the matter. 2600:4040:9129:9200:9056:7758:DD78:DEAD (talk) 16:29, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can it be both? If the reliable sources cite it from different contexts/perspectives, then can the consensus can be that both are true? D1doherty (talk) 13:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I would point to MBSR as a parallel example that should receive similar treatment as this page and vice versa. 2600:4040:9129:9200:9056:7758:DD78:DEAD (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean ? Who are the reliable sources you claim are reliable ? You claim other peoples sources are opinions and your reliable sources are reliable. What nonsense. 45.148.15.125 (talk) 09:48, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A model for this wiki

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Alexander_Technique 2600:4040:9121:4400:1D87:6F75:2DE7:16C2 (talk) 21:47, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What, illiterate garbage? Bon courage (talk) 05:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It would be helpful info you can be more specific about how the linked definition is not accurate, or words that cause concern. Do you have an alt definition to propose? D1doherty (talk) 12:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about the first sentence? Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a pretty accurate description of AT and it’s purpose with links to sources. Would need to see if they stand up as WP:RS. It avoids medical claims that seem to trigger concerns. When you say “a model”, do you mean it’s an example of how the AT article could be written? I think the flow could be refined. D1doherty (talk) 12:49, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It obviously a garbage source, SPS and seemingly machine-translated or from a poor AI. Bon courage (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the odd tone that would need to be improved, are there any statements that you believe are not true? D1doherty (talk) 13:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea, but neutral articles are based on the WP:BESTSOURCES, not semi-literate random websites. Bon courage (talk) 13:07, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. We are making progress. You don’t see any factual errors and we’ve moved from “illiterate garbage” to “semi-illiterate” based on the first sentence. I believe the author was offering it as an example of the type of info to include, not a polished article. I’ll see if I can clean it up, for further discussion. D1doherty (talk) 13:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed my draft until I hear back from the author.
D1doherty (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a huge copyright violation from an unreliable source. Bon courage (talk) 14:19, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Addition RS

The following excerpt is from this textbook: Moroz, A., Cohler, M. H., & Schulman, R. A. (2011). Body Work and Movement Therapies. In Pain Procedures in Clinical Practice (Third Edition, pp. 212–213). https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-1-4160-3779-8.10021-1

Alexander technique is a methodology for the treatment of chronic illness or conditions due to stress. Although it does not cure any of the conditions, Alexander technique does manage to make the condition less taxing on the afflicted individual. In general, the technique works through psychosensory education; the afflicted individuals are taught by teachers of Alexander technique to identify habits that may be the cause of unnecessary and extra discomfort. Interestingly, Alexander technique does not involve any exercises or forms of meditation; it is essentially a system of self-analysis and eventually, one of self-care.

The Alexander technique generally applies to individuals with neurologic and musculoskeletal problems. Typical afflictions and conditions that Alexander technique can help include pain management, chronic fatigue syndrome, disc herniation, sciatica, osteoporosis, stenosis, occupational injuries, and strains of musicians, dancers, computer workers, and singers.

The origin of Alexander technique is rooted in the personal experiences of Frederick Matthias Alexander. Born in 1869, he eventually became a Shakespearean recitalist at age 19. However, he experienced recurrent laryngitis. The medical help he sought was unable to identify the cause of his condition. Alexander managed to overcome his problem by being consciously aware of himself while he spoke. He discovered that by doing so, he could release the tension in his body and be more relaxed while he spoke. The key to his method rests in the focus of the moment, or having active sensory awareness, rather than focusing on the product, the outcome of the moment.

In practice, the Alexander technique involves a one-to-one lesson between the student and the teacher, in which the teacher aids the student in identifying his or her own unwanted tensions and reactions, allowing the student to eventually develop self-care. The teachers of Alexander technique emphasize everyday activities, which include reading, sitting, lying down, and so on. By doing so, the student goes through each of the Alexander technique stages: the means-whereby (process over product, conscious awareness in action), non-endgaining/inhibition (non-doing, non-interference), and direction (carrying out clear intention to move).

In Maher's 2004 article analyzing scientific evidence for various physical treatments of low back pain, he groups the Alexander technique with other therapies of "unknown efficacy" given the paucity of high-quality clinical trials evaluating it. Alexander technique has been shown to be effective when it is part of a multidisciplinary approach to chronic lower back pain.

Alexander technique has been shown to be effective when it is part of a multidisciplinary approach to chronic lower back pain. Elkayam and colleagues in Israel found significant reductions in pain after a 4-week program of back school, psychological intervention, chiropractic manipulation, Alexander technique, and acupuncture. Using the VAS, pain ratings dropped from a mean of 7.02 to 4.67 and were maintained for 6 months following treatment. Yet the researchers did not identify the contributions of the different modalities, and thus, no conclusions can be made about any of them individually. Researchers in the United Kingdom performed a systematic review of controlled clinical trials evaluating the effectiveness of the Alexander technique. In their search of various sources, two trials were methodologically sound and clinically relevant. One of those addresses pain, an unpublished trial by Vickers of patients with chronic mechanical low back pain.

When compared to controls who received weekly self-help meetings, there seemed to be pain improvement in the experimental group at 3-month follow-up. However, more recently, Little and colleagues reported the results of an RCT to determine the effectiveness of Alexander technique lessons, exercise, and massage for chronic and recurrent back pain. The 579 participants in the trial (average age 45 years) reported an average of 279 days of pain in the past year. The participants were assigned to receive either normal care (control), 6 sessions of massage, or 6 or 24 lessons on the Alexander technique. Half of the patients in each of these groups also received a prescription for exercise from a doctor as well as behavioral counseling from a nurse. At follow-up after 3 months, the patients in the massage and Alexander technique groups reported statistically significant fewer days with back pain in the previous month when compared with the control group. The patients who received 24 sessions of Alexander technique had the greatest mean decrease in days with back pain with an average of 16 fewer days. The exercise prescription group also showed a modest effect, decreasing the number of days with pain in a month by 6. In addition, at 1-year follow-up, the group who received 24 lessons in Alexander technique continued to have significantly fewer days with pain (a mean of 18 fewer days). The participants who had received 6 lessons on Alexander technique or massage also had significantly fewer days with pain (10 fewer and 7 fewer, respectively). At 1 year, however, the exercise group failed to show significantly fewer days with pain. This high-quality study gives strong support for the long-term benefits of the Alexander technique. The fact that those participants who received only six sessions still had nearly as few days of back pain as the group who received 24 sessions may indicate the powerful nature of this method. However, this is just one clinical trial and more need to be performed.

References

Irwin MR, Olmstead R, Oxman MN. Augmenting immune responses to varicella zoster virus in older adults: A randomized, controlled trial of Tai Chi. J Am Geriatr Soc. 2007;55(4):511-517.

Elkayam O, Ben Itzhak S, Avrahami E, et al. Multidisciplinary approach to chronic back pain: prognostic elements of the outcome. Clin Exp Rheumatol. 1996;14:281-288.

Maher CG. Effective physical treatment for chronic low back pain. Orthop Clin North Am. 2004;35:57

Ernst E, Canter PH. The Alexander technique: A systematic review of controlled clinical trials. Forsch Komplementarmed Klass Naturheilkd. 2003;10:325-329

Little P, Lewith G, Webley F, et al. Randomised controlled trial of Alexander technique lessons, exercise, and massage (ATEAM) for chronic and recurrent back pain. BMJ. 2008;337:A884. 2600:4040:9123:1300:4447:B8EF:F495:86C7 (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty old, but does at least confirm the proponents of this stuff push it as a hardcore medical intervention. Bon courage (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's no evidence AT is "pushed as a hardcore medical intervention", what would it be replacing? 162.120.138.193 (talk) 16:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't need to be replacing anything (non-woo physical therapy maybe), for "chronic fatigue syndrome, disc herniation, sciatica, osteoporosis, stenosis, occupational injuries ..." Bon courage (talk) 16:35, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More specific description of AT in intro

As is:

The Alexander Technique, named after its developer Frederick Matthias Alexander (1869–1955), is a type of alternative therapy for stress-related chronic conditions based on the idea that poor posture gives rise to a range of health problems.[1][2]: 221  It does not attempt to cure the underlying cause(s), but teaches people how to avoid bad habits which might exacerbate their condition.[3]

Proposed changed:

The Alexander Technique, named after its developer Frederick Matthias Alexander (1869–1955), is a type of Mind–body intervention for stress-related chronic conditions based on the idea that poor posture gives rise to a range of health problems.[1][2]: 221  It does not attempt to cure the underlying cause(s), but teaches people how to avoid bad habits which might exacerbate their condition.[3]


Both link to Alternative Medicine and the banner is still present. "Mind-body intervention" more accurately and specifically describes Alexander Technique than an Alternative therapy (which mind-body intervention is clearly form of if you look at the relevant wiki. 2600:4040:9126:EC00:59F4:7781:EC5D:3CD3 (talk) 14:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference ee150 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference bloch was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ a b Moroz A, Cohler MH, Schulman RA (2011). "Chapter 21: Body Work and Movement Therapies". In Lennard TA, Walkowski S, Singla AK, Vivian DG (eds.). Pain Procedures in Clinical Practice (3rd ed.). Elsevier. pp. 205–222. doi:10.1016/B978-1-4160-3779-8.10021-1. ISBN 978-1-4160-3779-8. (subscription required)
I think 'Mind–body intervention' is in-universe jargon our readers won't understand; let's stick with the mainstream view. Bon courage (talk) 14:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's one click away from its definition linked within Wikipedia. Do you have a legitimate reason beyond your typical vandalism of this page? The edit is made in good faith within attempt to improve the articles specificity. 2604:CA00:160:6944:0:0:1260:9D7 (talk) 15:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
'Mind–body intervention' is clearly listed in the Alternative Medicine banner that's present on the page, it's very clear it's labeled and links to Alternative Medicine. Every source I can see on AT calls it a mind-body method/technique and there's clearly a category for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_interventions 2600:4040:9126:EC00:59F4:7781:EC5D:3CD3 (talk) 15:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the first reference places it as altmed. Anyway, since your 'vandalism' comment show trolling, it's time to ignore. Bon courage (talk) 15:18, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Re: a now-reverted post, I'm "another editor", and my opinion is that I agree with Bon courage. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems UNDUE and FRINGE to change it as proposed. --Hipal (talk) 17:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1. The historical anecdotes belong in the history section.
2. Mind-body intervention and alt therapy are interchangeable as far as I can tell, the former is more specific and relevant to the subject of the wiki
3. It's supported by the source provided and others in the wiki. 2600:4040:9126:EC00:59F4:7781:EC5D:3CD3 (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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