Talk:Passeier Valley

Requested move

• Support. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names - A clearly favoured English name for this valley does not exist, so we should take the name used by the local majority. Mai-Sachme 19:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. In fact, google gives 13,800 hits for "val passiria" -wikipedia and 902 for passeiertal -wikipedia, but moreover English maps, encyclopedias, etc. prefer val passiria and the naming conventions say to use the current local names (so the Italian names for places in Italy, the French name for places in France and so on) when there isn't a clear preference for a name in English. See also Danzig vs Gdansk.--Supparluca 06:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• moreover English maps, encyclopedias, etc. prefer val passiria - Please prove this assertion!
• 13,800 hits for "val passiria" -wikipedia and 902 for passeiertal -wikipedia I can't find, where you got your google-hits - please give me the links! But when i search for pages from the UK, i have 144 hits for Val Passiria and 229 for Passeiertal. Imho this result proves that there is no clear preference for one of the two names.
• the naming conventions say to use the current local names (so the Italian names for places in Italy, the French name for places in France and so on) I'm sorry, but do you take me for a fool? You know the discussions regarding South Tyrol and the consensus was that we use the names of the local and not of the national majority ([1]) - that's why we moved Val Pusteria to Pustertal, Val Venosta to Vinschgau and Rienza to Rienz, aside from the rest of the Communes of South Tyrol. Mai-Sachme 10:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[2] and [3] (www.google.com -> language tools -> only English -> "val passiria" -wikipedia -> etc.). People in the Passiria valley are Italian citizens.--Supparluca 12:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

People in the Pustertal or the Vinschgau are Italian citizens, too, but that's not the point. I have to repeat: Supparluca, you know the discussions about article names regarding South Tyrol, and I can't understand why you act the fool as if you've never heart anything about the consensus to use the names of the local majority. Little valleys in the Alps have obviously no commonly used English names and in this case the Naming conventions are non-ambiguous. Furthermore we have enough precedents, almost every geographical name in South Tyrol coincides with the denomination used by the local majority and Val Passiria is one of the few relicts, which don't accord to the NC. Mai-Sachme 15:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with nom. There appears no clear preference in English speaking countries for either of the names, so the name given it by the local majority should be the article name. —AldeBaer 17:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support because the local majority in the valley is German-speaking and in accordance to consensus regarding other place names in BZ.  Andreas  ^(T) 17:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose until there is evidence below which suggests that these are at least equal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support It should be the majority speak in that case. Gryffindor 22:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Data

I set up, below, the six suggested tests of WP:NCGN. have fun:

1. Encyclopedias:
   • Britannica: one hit, for Passiria.
   • Columbia
   • Encarta
2. Scholarly google results (not raw google, please; and remember to look for false positives).
   • Google Scholar Passiertal: 3; two citing both names, one not. Excluding the texts actually in German, K. Fischer's Das Passiertal and the papers that cite it and other papers in German. Val Passiria:7, excluding the three where it's part of a street address. How is Signior Pedrini's garlic-squeezer, does anybody know? Passiria with or without Val scores 30, mostly adding "Passiria fault". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
   • Google Books Passiertal: 6, excluding 2 nineteenth century references, one in French and das Grosse Brockhaus. Val Passiria: 8, again excluding two books in French; Passiria scores 18, suggesting that Passiria valley is also quite common. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
3. Other standard English sources.
   • LC country study for Italy - None
   • Cambridge History
   • Oxford Dictionary
4. Media usage
   • BBC – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:bbc.co.uk.
   • Guardian – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:guardian.co.uk.
   • Washington Post – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:washingtonpost.com.
   • New York Times – No hits for google search passiria OR passertal site:nytimes.com.
5. Consensus of Wikipedia editors (unlikely)
6. Use of one name as a translation of the other.

Regards. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not a democracy, but Wikipedia is a democracy as far as the province of Bolzano is concerned.--Supparluca 10:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but looking at the 6 suggested tests I can't find a clear preference. Where the above tests, therefore, give no indication of a widely used English name, those articles are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority. If these conditions apply elsewhere, this solution may be worth considering. (from the Naming Conventions). Mai-Sachme 11:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

@Septentrionalis: You forgot the option Passeier valley [4] and [5]. Maybe you will reconsider your decision to vote Oppose. 212.171.128.42 13:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)