Talk:Baháʼí Faith

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Biographies for discussion of material relating to the history of Baha'i figures
Picture discussion of the display of Baha'u'llah's photograph
Request for comment discussion generated by a RfC of Feb 2005
Off Topic discussions removed per wikipedia policy (Wikipedia is not a discussion board)

How many Bahai's are there, actually?

The page 'Major religious groups' says that there are 7 million Bahai's in the world, but when we enter the Bahai page, we learn that there are in fact 6 million Bahai's. My question is, actually how many Bahai's are there? Kazimostak 17:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Accurately estimating the number of any religion is a difficult and complex task. In some regions of the world, religious persecution or government oppression may make individual believers reluctant to identify themselves. In other areas, poor communications or travel networks make it difficult to obtain data. Thus different sources give different amounts. Encyclopedias and similar sources estimate usually from 5 to 8 million Bahá'ís with most centred on 5-6 million. Encyclopedia Britannica states 7 million. -- Jeff3000 18:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This should really be standardised. I suggest changing both to "around 5-8 million" Zazaban 19:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It would have to fit into the pattern of the rest of the religions. Perhaps the lead references should simply be echoed elsewhere or referred to the statistics page.--Smkolins 22:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• I know at Buddhism they show where estimates usually vary from. Zazaban 23:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It's already discussed in the demographics section and the Baha'i statistics page as per summary style. Having that much detail in the lead would not pass by WP:LEAD. -- Jeff3000 23:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Another reason diffreent articles will give different numbers is because they use different sources that use different definitions. Most religious statistics ultimately come from the World Christian Encyclopedia, originally edited by David Barrett, now by Todd Johnson. Their estimate of 7 million Baha'is worldwide is based on "identity," which includes people the Baha'is don't usually include (Dr. Johnson told me, for example, that if a non-Baha'i spouse attended Baha'i worship services regularly, he or she would be counted as a "Baha'i" by their definition). The Baha'i definition, however, requires someone to "declare" (state their allegiance) and then be enrolled in the community. The Baha'i numbers therefore are somewhat lower on average. 70.224.42.139 14:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)RHStockman

Ouch. I didn't know it was that bad. I recalled bits about conversions vs children raised as Baha'is but never just a spouse attending a meeting....--Smkolins 19:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

But where do they get that information? -LambaJan 16:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The data collected around the world associated with Ruhi books will give a much better overall impression of the base line and the trends. RoddyYoung 13:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Baha'i Economics

Lets look at a link for the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty. Economic laws are very clear by Baha'u'llah and no like ? why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RoddyYoung (talk • contribs) 13:21, April 13, 2007 (UTC).

Response to above statement: I don't quite understand your statement, and whether you are being sarcastic. I don't think that the Ba'hai religion will or can ever trump the laws of economics, of supply and demand. It does sound a bit like socialism/communism, which we all know doesn't work. Is that what the Ba'hai view of economics is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.37.184.156 (talk) 17:17, April 14, 2007 (UTC)

Much of economics depends on confidence. Business confidence reflect companies' sales prospects which ultimately depend on workers' confidence that they will continue to have work. Personal confidence is a counterpart of hope, which is a spiritual principle. Therefore the spiritual principles within the Baha'i Faith--which include confidence in mankind's brilliant future--will have an impact on world economics. Moreover, there is growing global distaste for the extremes in wealth and poverty. This is neither socialism nor communism, but informed global recognition that real extremes of wealth and abject poverty are no longer morally supportable. Occamy 17:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Baha'i version of economics (as I understand it) would be best described as a moral capitalism, rather than communism. Shogi Effendi was really clear that communism is no good, most specifically because it is without religious roots. Anyway, Baha'i beliefs, as I understand them, encourage entrepreneurship, ingenuity, and supports the idea that hard work should be rewarded with a higher salary. The two big differences between Baha'i and regular capitalistic models is that it should be acquired in an ethical way (no sweat shops, cut throat business tactics, unfair wages, etc.) and that the rich have a certain obligation to the rest of the world. The model that we see now of billionaires hording their cash and property would be out, they would be encouraged to support social development projects and charity. Through this system third world countries would be less exploited, and people living there would be given equal opportunities. At no point is it stated that "everyone should get equal wages" because not only is this unfeasible, it is unfair, because it means those with the skills and initiative would get lower wages then they deserve, but one of the key goals is that everyone can get a living wage, where they don't have problems feeding their family or dying of curable diseases. 219.28.165.29 11:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Jesse

Involvement in society

The "Involvement in Society" section would do good as its own article. Don't you think? If no one objects to making this section its own page, I will go ahead and do so.--eskimospy^(talk) 18:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to make it it's own page; First of all, it would, by itself, not pass Wikipedia's notability guidelines, and secondly no-one will be find that article as the entrance into Wikipedia, and so there is no point. The separation will only make it more difficult to maintain the quality of the content. -- Jeff3000 19:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Society has a growing involvment from the Baha'i followers and they take the Devotional meetings, Ruhi classes, children's classes and junior youth classes out to the wider community. Notability in wikipedia is all about how it is worded. CommonWealth of Baha'i nations would be a notable involvement in society so have a go and start it. RoddyYoung 12:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Another approach is to put satisfactory entries of the involvement of the religion in society in those places and topics where already present or deserving of being in wikipedia. For example worldly notable individuals, already in wikipedia, who are Baha'is or encountered the religion, and where the religion has been a notable influence. A specific example would be expanding the biographical stubs of Baha'is (many of them at this point need pictures for example.) Another would the notable action Baha'is have undertaken in development circles or governance, civil rights promotion, and many other topics - all in a way the serves the principles of wikipedia.--Smkolins 18:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I point I think needs to be included.

We need to include something along the lines of "Contrary to common belief, the Baha'i Faith is not a synthetic religion." It seems to me to be an important thing to include. Zazaban 17:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This is already covered by the Religion paragraph which starts: "Bahá'í beliefs are sometimes described as syncretic combinations of earlier religions' beliefs...."Occamy 18:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, sorry, must have missed that. Zazaban 18:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ishmael

I need some help for writing the section on "Ishmael in the Bahai Faith". Also, there is a sentence in the intro which needs to be sourced. Thanks --Aminz 07:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Meet you over there. MARussellPESE 13:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Why all the accents, bits left out of words with apostrophes?

I think the accents, .e.g, á í, and missing bits of words that have apostrophes, e.g., in "Bahá'u'lláh" needs brief explanation. Does this affect how the words are said or only a style of writing? Thanks. - Fremte 23:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It has to do with transliteration from the original Arabic or Persian that the names come from; it allows the original text to be recreated; see Bahá'í orthography for more information. For example the apostrophe (') represents the Hamza or glottal stop (The glottal stop is the sound made when the vocal cords are pressed together to stop the flow of air and then released; for example, the break separating the syllables of the interjection uh-oh) Regards, -- Jeff3000 00:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank-you. Do you think some form of explanation might be good to include somewhere, or a link to an explanation like your good answer? I did not find such information when searching the internet. Just a suggestion from someone completely outside of this religion / system of beliefs. - Fremte 19:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Order of sections Beliefs, Teachings, Social Practices

Currently these section are spread throughout the page 'Bahai Faith'. Is there a specific reason for this? I would feel it is more logical to have them together. Wiki-uk 05:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest the following order:

1 Demographics

2 History

3 Beliefs

4 Teachings

5 Social practices

6 Involvement in society

7 Persecution

Any comments, objections? Wiki-uk 08:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the current ordering; I really think beliefs should come first. -- Jeff3000 13:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then what about:

1 Beliefs

2 Teachings

3 Social practices

4 Demographics

5 History

6 Involvement in society

7 Persecution

Wiki-uk 14:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the article as is. MARussellPESE 18:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC) I don't see any compelling reason to change the order, it reads fine now.--I'm Nonpartisan 21:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

200 countries

Does the "more than 200 countries" part make sense? As I understand it, there are 192 countries in the UN, and maybe 2 more that aren't part of the UN -- that sounds like there are fewer than 200 countries total. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.111.36 (talk • contribs) 13:21, April 13, 2007 (UTC)

This includes dependencies Zazaban 03:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Be accurate

In the first sentence you say "..founded by Bahá'u'lláh in 19th century Persia". Fine. Then you give a link to persia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire#Persia_and_Europe_.281722.E2.80.931914.29

the link is to the section "persian empire". as far as i know bab was aroung 1850. why you don't give link to iran? (to the main article of iran and not to a section about 1000-2000 years ago of iran). do you want to say you are not related to iran?

this article starts with a joke. therefore non-sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.70.24.167 (talk • contribs)

I take it you didn't even follow the link. Note it is headed "Persia and Europe (1722–1914)" This is Clearly when the Bab lived.

In the future make sure you know what you talking about before you start criticizing something. Zazaban 16:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Bahaisim

I disagree with giving this obscure term prominence by setting it in the opening paragraph. It's even-handed use is dated, and it's current usage is almost uniformly intended to be pejorative. Google it (vs. Baha'i) and compare the number of total hits. Also check out the kinds of hits it generates: Generally Christian or Muslim apologetics, or online mirror dictionaries. It has no place in the first line of the article per WP:Undue_Weight.

Serious scholars refer to this as Baha'i.[1]

As the current version is effectively a revert, I'm changing it back. MARussellPESE 02:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The book on religion in which I first heard of the Baha'i Faith not ten years ago refered to it as Baha'ism. The book was published in 1999. Zazaban 02:33, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Zazaban, I respectfully disagree. I also did the google search on Bahaism and found that most links went back to one online encyclopedia. That same site also had a duplicate entry under Baha'i, not Baha'i Faith, and the very short article was unsatifying, indeed. Most books that use the term Bahaism do not use Baha'i texts for their sources, but instead quote other books that "explain" about the Baha'i Faith in the context of cults. No Baha'is refer to their religion as Bahaism or to themselves as Bahaists. But, this gives me pause. Are Hinduism and Buddhism also incorrect?--I'm Nonpartisan 00:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I myself remember being a bit confused when I came to this article, because I had only even heard the term "Baha'ism" before. Zazaban 16:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

""Bahaism" (or "Baha'ism") has been used in the past but is fading from use." It is not fading from use. It faded a long time ago. It has its origins in Frnech Encyclopedias and other secondary sources that are no longer considered up to date or even accurate. These terms do not reflect proper usage and therefore it should be noted in that way and not so passively. 68.98.11.237 08:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Bahá'í prayers

Anyone got a position on whether there should be a general page on Bahá'í Prayer? I see there is Obligatory Bahá'í prayers but beyond that there is only [[2]], [[3]], which then refers to the reference of the prayers (so that Praise and Gratitude points to [[4]] actually plus a several of the Occasional Prayers. As it is important to the religion, and that a major distinction between the Bahá'í religion and others is the wide-scale use of authenticated prayers of it's central figures it seems to me there should be a page. On the particular question of including text from example prayers I note that the Serenity Prayer includes the text. There is List of prayers which among others lists Lord's Prayer which is provided in several forms. There is copyright but it seems to me there is free for use/do not modify .... but we do need the particulars.... We do have Prayers and Mediations to note as well.... While we're at it perhaps one on fasting? Prayer and fasting are central practices, perhaps adding consultation.... Back to prayer there are a few articles worth noting:

• Prayer and worship
• Authenticity of Some Well-Known Prayers and Tablets by Universal House of Justice, 1992-09
• Main publishing crossreferences and other crossreferences
• Prayer for Shaykh Kázim Samandar by Bahá'u'lláh and Universal House of Justice
• Source of prayer "Make me a hollow reed" by Universal House of Justice, 1999-10-26
• on protection, Illumination, fathers, among others....

and a bit down the list of things to cover could be Prayers of Shoghi Effendi --Smkolins 02:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Baha'i Prayer

I like that idea a lot. Most books for the general public that are compilations of prayers and medications often include one from the Baha'i Faith. It would be interesting to see a List of editions of the Baha'i Prayer book. It would be really interesting to learn about how the Baha'i Obligatory Prayers are different than daily prayers of other faiths, etc. I say, go for it.--I'm Nonpartisan 01:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

this sentence is horrible, somebody please rewrite it

"Its cultural and religious debt to the Shi'a Islamic matrix in which it was founded is seen as analogous to the Jewish socio-religious context in which Christianity was established."

thanks T-1 19:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

How's that? MARussellPESE 18:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, i now understand what the hell it was supposed to say. :) T-1 00:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the original better. Much more accurate. 68.98.11.237 08:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

English converts to the Bahai Faith

I am interested in the subject of British involvement in the Baha'i faith.

Did Edward Browne become a Baha'i? Was the British consul that he refers to in A Year Among Persians already Baha'i?

Is there a section of the British establishment which is Bahai and is it pushing for regime change in Iran? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sidney Harry (talk • contribs).

E.G. Browne was never a Baha'i. He was academically interested in the religion of the Bab, and the movements that grew out of it. And the British Consul, Mr. Abbott, was similarly never a Baha'i. There are no Baha'i establishment, either British or otherwise, that is pushing for regime change in Iran; one of Baha'u'llah's laws was obedience to the government of one's country. Baha'is all over the world, are however, trying to raise concerns about the discriminatory practices that the Baha'is in Iran are facing; they just want to be treated like any other Iranian in Iran. Regards, -- Jeff3000 01:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for all Bahá'í and Bahá'í-Related Articles

Dear Everyone,

This may have already been discussed, but if not I would like to open an idea for consultation. The basic idea is that, while it is desirable to stick to the correct orthography of "Bahá'í" with a-acute and i-acute within each article that has to do with the Faith, I wonder if this is equally important when using the text for a URL. For instance: any article referencing the faith is "Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" which is almost completely unreadable. Really, wouldn't "Bahai_Faith" or even "Baha%27i_Faith" be preferable--even if less accurate?

Yours sincerely, Matarael 00:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, after rereading what I have here... it's not so much that we should change our "default" pages, but rather when linking between articles we should link to the non-acute, non-dashed version.

So, when linking between articles, you would link to "Bahai_Faith", which would automatically be redirected to "Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" thus preserving all of the accents, etc. but still showing up in someone's URL as something readable and nice.

Matarael 01:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually IE already shows the correct form in the URL location box (with all the accents) and Firefox will show the correct form in Firefox 3.0 which will be released in the fourth quarter (I'm using a beta right now, and it displays just fine). So all those funny escaped characters will be a thing of the past for all in a couple of months. Regards -- Jeff3000 03:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jeff3000, I just got Gran Paradiso to check it out, and you are indeed correct. Good to know! My concern still remains, however, when one copies and pastes the article, into say, an email, it comes with the escaped characters... If no-one else sees this as an issue, fair enough. Matarael 02:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

If you go to Asian language Wikipedias then every single page loads that way to accommodate the 5,000 or more characters. I don't see it as a big deal here. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 08:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Cuñado, That may be true, but this in no way has any bearing on an english wikipedia site or english wikipedia reading audience. Diacritic marks in links only obfusticate otherwise useful article identification. Matarael 02:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Al Afghani

Researhing the Muslim Brotherhood and Freemasonary in Egypt, I see that the conspiracy web-sites believe that Al Afghani was a secret Baha'i, Can this be verified or rejected? Sidney Harry 22:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe there's such a thing as a secret Baha'i, aat least I've never heard of one. Zazaban 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Jamal al-Din al-Afghani was not a Baha'i either. Cole believes that al-Afghani thought that the Baha'i Faith could be an ally in reform of Islam and sent copies of an anti-British Muslim periodical to Baha'u'llah, but there was no response from the Baha'is. [5] Also, from that article Cole writes "In 1896, an assassin with ties to Jamalu'd-Din al-Afghani killed Iran's Nasiru'd-Din Shah. Both in Iran itself and among Iranian expatriates, many blamed the Babis for the incident (few Iranians made any distinction at that time between Babis and Baha'is). Until official word came from Iran that the Baha'is were not involved, many Shi`ite Iranian expatriates were calling for a retaliatory massacre of the Baha'is in Egypt."

Later on, Rashid Rida and Muhammad `Abduh, two disciples of al-Afghani had a major dispute between each other on the Baha'i Faith. `Abduh admired the Baha'i faith, but he was not willing to give up on Sunni Islam and Rida rejected many of the Baha'i changes.

Momen also writes about al-Afghani's relationship with Baha'is. He writes:

"It has been suggested that Sayyid Jamalu'd-Din Afghani was in contact with the Babi exiles in Baghdad in the 1850s.[3] Certainly he was very familiar with the movement and provided the information on this subject that went into Butrus al-Bustani's Arabic Encyclopaedia.[4] He appears to have wanted to remain in contact with the Baha'i leaders in `Akka since he sent them copies of his newspaper, Urwatu'l-Waqtha, from Paris in the 1880s.[5] It would appear from Afghani's writings that he felt a great deal of antipathy for the Baha'is[6] whom he saw as potentially breaking up the unity of the Islamic world therefore his continued contacts may well have been because he found the ideas emanating from this source useful to him in formulating his own views." [6]

What you are likely seeing on the forums with the connection of the Baha'i Faith to some individuals, is more likely a form of discreditation. There have been many times when opponents of a person will call that person a Baha'i to discredit him. It happened with the former Prime-Minister in Iran, Hoveyda, and even more recently opponents circulated notices that Mahmoud Abbas was a Baha'i.[7][8] [9] [10] Both of them were never Baha'is. Regards, -- Jeff3000 00:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Started in Iraq, not Iran!

The article claimed that the faith was founded in Iran. While the Babi movement was, the Bahai faith wasn't; it was founded in Iraq, after the Babis were expelled in 185x (1854? I forget). Baha'ulla founded the Bahai faith, depending on who you ask, in 1863 or 1866, in Iraq. I've corrected the mistake in the article, assuming it was simply made out of ignorance, but I'm worried that claiming it was started in Iran (because the Babi movement was) is accepted, in which case it should be changed back. It doesn't seem correct to me (as there are non-Bahai Babis, the Azalis, which proves that the Babi movement is different from the Bahai faith), but I'm not an expert on the Bahai faith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerdol (talk • contribs).

The declaration of Baha'u'llah was in Iraq, but the origin of the Faith is very clearly in Iran. Actually this is a very slightly curly one, and someone else may want to comment.Soundofmusicals 07:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

While Baha'u'llah declared while he was in Baghdad, he claims that he came to know of his mission while he was in prison in Tehran, Iran. Also the religion predominately spread in Iran after 1866 (when Baha'u'llah made his claim to be the one promised by the Bab public). The Encyclopedia of Religion article agrees with this and states that the religion was started in Iran. Regards, -- Jeff3000 12:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"Bahá'ís believe such-and-such"

The word believe is used many times in this article. Examples:

"Bahá'ís believe in a single, imperishable God...Bahá'ís believe that God expresses this will in many ways...Bahá'ís believe that human beings have a "rational soul"..."

This is common style, but it is very hard to verify that the adherents actually believe what the teachings say. If we're trying to be factual, (this is an encyclopedia,no?) then we might have to say "Bahá'ís are supposed to believe" or "The teachings of blah say such-and-such" or something.

One might say that by definition, if you don't believe all the required beliefs, then you aren't a Bahá'í. This might be the position of many Bahá'ís. But what to do when you find someone who calls themselves Bahá'í, but doesn't believe one of the teachings?

This is an argument that could be made about many articles about religions. I think it could be solved with a little thought and rewording.

-Misha

216.254.12.114 21:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

I don't really like the current introduction. I want to propose this and see what people think. I mainly just changed the second paragraph, and I removed the refs for viewing pleasure on the talk page.

The '''Bahá'í Faith''' is a worldwide religion founded by [[Bahá'u'lláh]] in 19th-century [[Persian Empire#Persia and Europe (1722–1914)|Persia]] ([[Iran]]). There are around six million Bahá'ís in more than 200 countries around the world.

According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history has unfolded through a series of [[God]]'s messengers, who brought teachings suited for the capacity of the people of their time, and whose fundamental purpose is the same. Bahá'u'lláh is regarded as the most recent, but not final, in this line of messengers that includes [[Abraham]], [[Buddha]], [[Jesus]], [[Muhammad]] and others. Bahá'u'lláh's claim to fulfill the [[eschatology|eschatological]] expectations of previous Faiths coincides with his mission to establish a firm basis for unity throughout the world, and inaugurate an age of peace and justice, which Bahá'ís expect will inevitably arise.

Any suggestions? Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I love it. Zazaban 19:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I may propose some changes. There is some vital information in the current introduction that should be weaved into the new version. Let us do some work on it before we post it. Nevertheless, very nicely done. Nmentha 07:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I will propose the changes on here rather than change them immediately on the page. I believe that this is a better approach. Nmentha 07:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Few changes: fixed grammer with "includes", added Manifestations of God link because of pertinence, added Krishna for implications and scope, fixed grammer with "coincides" Nmentha 07:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)