Talk:Bible

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adding links " Old Covenant and New Covenant immediately to opening of main article " Bible "

In the opening of the main article the : Bible , we soon come to the sentence which gives reference to the Old Testament and the New Testament ......... both references ( O.T and N.T. ) are links directly to Old Testament and New Testament which are part of the series on , " the Bible " , found under the sub series , " Biblical Canon " ......... I would like to see and think it a good idea , that immediately connected to the links Old Testament and New Testament are added the links " Old Covenant and New Covenant ............ my proposal would edit the specific sentence as follows : It divides the books of the Bible into two parts : the books of the Old Testament or Old Covenant , primarily sources from the Tanakh ( with some variations ) , and the 27 books of the New Testament or New Covenant contaning books originally written primarily in Greek ........... my reasoning is that these extra links would allow the option for one to access immediately the grander and more specific meanings of the titles Old Testament and New Testament , as oppossed to eventually finding these meanings as sub-parts under O.T. and N.T. ......... in an overall understanding of the Holy Bible , these two Covenants are major key if not a prime key ........... respectfully requesting consideration and discussion on my proposal for edit .......... Pilotwingz 03:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Pilotwingz 03:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Pilotwingz 23:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Covenant is indeed a grand theme by which to understand the Bible, it is also the explicit idea of testamentum in the Latin Vetus Testamentum and Greek he kaine diatheke. The Wiki linking system is also, as you suggest, an ideal way to concisely and transparently make additional information accessible. The Hebrew word for the idea (which is the original) is berit. I am sure what you suggest can be accomodated in the article in a way that enhances it, without detracting from anything.

Be bold, go ahead and make the change you suggest. I think it likely it will be accepted. If it is not, we can consider whatever reasons other editors may provide against the change. Alastair Haines 03:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I need some help with creating the proper links and approach to achieve the objective ........... first I ask to be excused in that I made an improper assumtion that " Old Covenant " , would naturally be found as a sub-article in the series Bible ......... It is not , but rather links only and directly to another existing Wiki. article relating to the Iceland and Norwegian pact , known as Gissurarsattmali or Gissur's covenant . I am not certain that article should be titled Old Covenant instead of Gissurarsattmali ( Gissur's covenant ), but the Iceland authoritive contributors seem to be ........... In the religious theological aspect of Old Covenant ( Old Teastament ), I would have to say that it is a concept ( of Israel's Holy Words ) which is strickly Christian and reasonably well covered under the Wiki. article New Covenant ........... Christians are the only ones to have the titles of Old Testament and New Testament sections , and the total of all writings within these two sections comprise the book called the Holy Bible ( Bible ) .......... The Holy Bible ( Bible ) is strickly a Christian Holy book , because in no other realm could it's contents in entirety be considered . And that is the outcome of adding or combining the New Covenant ( New Testament ) with Israel's Holy Words ........... Israel is still waiting for Messiah to come , and Christians have known Messiah as the Lord , Christ Jesus ........... at the moment I am unable to configure the proper approach to achieve the Covenant objective I believe should be introduced in immediate relation to Old Testament and New Testament as writen in the opening of the Bible article ........... any theological speak ( be it atheistic or divine ) of the concepts arising from the Holy Words is not appropriate for a documentarily written article such as Wiki. Bible , but the inclussion of a concepts title is ........... I think perhaps a brief sentence ( immediately following the original in the article ) explaining the English transliteration of testament / covenant from the Latin , Greek and Hebrew words with the existing link to New Covenant might be an acceptable approach ............ as for the moment , I'm tired and respectfully request consideration , discussion and aid in achieving the Covenant objective in immediate relation to Testament . Pilotwingz 05:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC) Pilotwingz

If I understand your point correctly — that Christian understanding of Bible naturally and immediately brings to mind two Testaments, which is to say, two Covenants, and hence the article should reflect that in its description — ... if that is your point, then I agree with you. However, it is worth remembering this article is also covering Jewish use of the word Bible. In Jewish usage, Bible naturally and immediately brings to mind three sections — Law (Torah), Prophets (Navi'im) and Writings (Ketuvim) — the TaNaKh.

In sharing an article describing what is meant by Bible, there are many things that Jewish and Christian people, scholars and officials would say in common. There are other things about which they disagree. There are still other things about which there are internal differences among Jewish people or among Christian people. Covenant in the sense of Old and New is not a Jewish idea. The Hebrew Bible speaks of several specific covenants (Noah, Abraham, Moses and David for example), also of covenant renewal and of The Eternal Covenant (Berit Olam). Naturally Jewish people do not call their scriptures The Old Covenant, because they recognize no newer ones, and because those scriptures talk of many covenants, not just one.

The place for discussing Covenant (as Old and New) is at the point of introducing the New Testament, since he kaine diatheke (literally The New Covenant) is the New Testament's autonym. The name New Testament is actually older than Old Testament, which was a natural name for the "other part that comes before the New Testament".

I'll stop there. Is what I am saying helpful? or is it unclear? What do you think? Alastair Haines (talk) 14:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Ref Jeremiah 31:31-32 for the Jewish New Covenant different from that of the Old Covenant with Moses. -Bikinibomb (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, aside from the fact that that verse has nothing to do with this topic i.e. the New Testament, which, according to Paul, is a covenant with all humanity (not specifically Israel) ... this is just your (or my) interpretation of a primary source; using it as the basis for editing the article will violate NOR. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Responding to "Covenant in the sense of Old and New is not a Jewish idea." If the Jeremiah text states NC, then NC is not just an NT idea. Forking it out of the Tanach exclusively into the NT is POV. -Bikinibomb (talk) 22:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Additionally Jeremiah 31:27 addresses the so-called "grafting in" of Gentiles for the NC as you mentioned concerning possible origination of the idea with Paul, I'll try to find some sources for that as well to avoid being an issue of OR. -Bikinibomb (talk) 23:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

You must misunderstand Alistair, who is quite right - and quite specific. he is refering not to some vague or genersal idea of "a" new covenant. he is talking about the specific new covenant represented in the Christian New Testament. And he is quite right that this is not a Jewish idea. I do not think he meant that Jews have not had ideas about a variety of covenants. i think he is refering spoecifically to the one described in the New Testemant. It is that "new covenant" that is not Jewish. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

NC described in NT is asserted to be of Jewish origin, namely from Jesus the Jew. It is more accurate to say that it is not an idea embraced by modern Judaism, rather than say it is not a Jewish idea, since whether or not it actually originated from a Jew is currently POV. You understand that Judaism and Jewishness are not always synonymous terms. -Bikinibomb (talk) 00:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You are making two assumptions: first, that the account of Jesus's teachings in the Gospels are identical to the teachings of the actual Jesus, and second, that Jesus' references to a new covenant refer to the Christian conception of the new covenant as opposed to the Jewish conception of the new covenant. I am sure many people share these assumptions and it is a notable POV. But I know that many Bible scholars would not take either assumption for granted. On the contrary, many historians suggest that elements of the account of Jesus in the Gospels were interpolated by Christians a hundred or more years after Jesus was executed. Moreover, many historians suggest that Christian interpretations of Jesus' words are historically implausible and that there are more plausible interpretations of his words that do not coincide with Christian beliefs. You do not have to agree with this POV, but it is just as notable as yours. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

That's another issue, Christian/Church NC vs. NC as intended by Jesus, which agreed is much POV. The issue I'm addressing is NT NC being written off as not Jewish and not the same as Tanach NC. Again it is more accurate to say that both are purported to be Jewish and the same covenants, citing sources for and against each position, rather than organizing articles based on one religion's doctrine since that blows NPOV out of the water. In other words the Biblical text should be determining how what is placed where, not favorite POVs. That was my concern here. -Bikinibomb (talk) 00:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The word Testament means Covenant in relation to the Christian Bible sections Old Testament and New Testament . The word covenant is an English translation of the original Hebrew word for beriyth ( ber-eeth' ) . In the New Testament the words testament and covenant are interchangable as synonyms translated from the Greek word for diatheke ( dee-ath-ay'-kay ) . For further theological explanation of The New Testament/Covenant and The Old Testament/Covenant see New Covenant ( link ) .......... Is what I have just written appropriate for an edit immediately following the sentence giving introduction of the Old and New Testaments in the article Bible ??? ......... Alastair , to my understandings , all you have stated here is correct and yes , you do understand me correctly ... question , why berit instead of beriyth ( Strong's 1285 ) ??? .......... Slrubenstein , I don't believe I would be introducing an interpretation of the Pauline doctrine you have mentioned by this edit . Also , that doctrine would be covered in the link to New Covenant .......... Bikinibomb , the theological doctrines relating to Jeremiah 31:31-32 you have mentioned would be covered under the link New Covenant also ....... Pilotwingz (talk) 01:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Beriyth is Strong's way of turning a Hebrew word into English letters. Strong uses an old-fashioned way of doing this. In normal Hebrew, vowels are not always indicated, sometimes a Y is used to indicate the vowel I. Strong's system writes this as iy, more modern systems are simpler and just write i. Hebrew has two letters for T, one of which is thought to have been pronounced t in some cases and th in others. Strong adds the h to indicate the presumed appropriate pronunciation, and also to indicate which of the two letter Ts is used in the Hebrew. More modern systems are again simpler and typically simply represent the basic letter. Summary: Strong adds the y and the h using an old-fashioned system intended to give more information. Berit, or b'rit are more modern versions. From memory Strong also indicates the e as ^e, because it is a very short vowel, not really e at all. It is called shewa and is actually by far the most common vowel in English -- it is the same as the vowel at the end of the definite article in the car. Alastair Haines (talk) 00:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I commented over there my plans to neutralize article wording so that it's not dominated with the POV that the OT NC is Jewish material and NT NC is perhaps non-Jewish or Gentile only. Again, the need for sensitivity when speaking of "Jewish" concepts, as opposed to concepts commonly held within the religion of "Judaism," since those are often two different things. Thanks. -Bikinibomb (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I appreciate your point Bikinibomb, the New Testament use of "covenant" is widely analysed in literature as originally a kind of Jewish understanding. Indeed, few scholars question that the New Testament was largely written by men both of Jewish heritage and of a religious conviction those men would call Jewish. In fact Paul repeatedly describes himself as a Jew in the New Testament. This very notable POV is the Christian POV of the NT writers. But, of course, Wiki cannot present it as the NPOV.

However much the early Christians presented their position as the authentic Judaism, it never won the support of the Jewish religious authorities. This is recorded in the NT itself, other ancient literature, and modern scholars do not doubt it. Ultimately there is no advantage for Christians to claim to be the authentic representatives of scripturally defined Judaism, presenting this point as proven, because that is manifestly not the case. In fact, the New Testament itself ultimately distinguishes Christians from non-Christian Jews, who it simply describes as Jews. In a sense, there is even evidence within the New Testament that Christians of Jewish background ultimately surrendered their Jewishness.

I hope I'm not saying anything anyone would disagree with so far. My aim here is to argue that conservative Christian editors at Wiki should be content to accept that, from a Neutral Point Of View, Christianity is a notable and successful heretical splinter group from Judaism, that can claim association by background but cannot claim to represent some kind of Jewish perspective even with the acknowledgement that it is of unorthodox character.

This point may seem to be very abstract and subtle, however, it is regularly an issue in other contexts. For example, are Jehovah's Witnesses representatives of an unorthodox Christian POV, in the same way Baptist or Presbyterians may provide different Christian POVs. Do Mormons present a Christian POV? In what sense can Protestants represent Christianity, when they have never been accepted as Christians by Catholic authorities? I hope you see that Wiki has room to clarify policy in these areas. Personally, I think Jewish-Christian co-operation to produce neutral articles can set an example for many other issues.

I'd love to know what others think about this.

Just a short comment about "new covenant" though. I'd have to look around for sources, however, I'd expect to find many quality sources that would identify two distinct uses of "new covenant" in the NT. The first is Jesus' own use, at the Last Supper. There, it would appear, he alludes to the Mosaic covenant, apparantly interpreted by John, Paul and others as suggesting his death should be understood as a new Passover and Exodus. Although I would imagine the best scholars would be cautious, it would seem this reference is not to Jeremiah, it is quite original. On the other hand, several NT references to Jeremiah 31:31ff explicitly apply that prophecy to the role of the Holy Spirit in Christian theology. Now my personal guess is that by calling the NT he kaine diatheke Christians were refering to Jesus' death, rather than to the Holy Spirit, which renders arguments based on Jeremiah moot. However, were I publishing thoughts on this, I would not want to dogmatically exclude Jeremiah from broad associations of he kaine diatheke in Christian usage, it's just that it seems to me (and I imagine many others) that the Last Supper would be the primary allusion.

Again, I'd love to hear criticisms, and hear what sources say about this. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. On, "Ultimately there is no advantage for Christians to claim to be the authentic representatives of scripturally defined Judaism, presenting this point as proven, because that is manifestly not the case." I agree, as I was saying the phrase "view of Judaism" is preferable since differences between the religions of Christianity and Judaism are more clearly defined and accepted.

However, use of the phrase "Jewish view" as exclusively pertaining to the "view of Judaism" exerts too much POV since as mentioned, while NT texts themselves do not claim to be a "view of Judaism" concerning that religious institution, they do claim to be a "Jewish view." That said, it is important to reserve implication that the NT may not be a Jewish source -- to be blunt, a text fabricated by Gentiles in opposition to "authentic" Jewish teachings -- for clearly critical sections only and not use it as a general article theme since it is a less than neutral POV. Similarly, you probably would not want to state that the "Christian view" involves allegiance to the Pope, implying that any views outside of that one are non-Christian.

Additionally, painting Jewishness as being exclusively defined by the religion of Judaism should also be avoided since in reality Jewishness is an identity held by Jews of any belief -- Messianic, atheistic, Buddhist, etc. Jewishness is also addressed by Paul as being a spiritual state not exclusive to those who follow Torah or who are deemed to be Jews by other Jews. In the same way, you wouldn't want to use the phrase "Jewish race" either because that implies Jewish "blood" or "color" which is equally stereotypical and inaccurate.

To sum it up, although it may take more thought and care not to pigeonhole and categorize, "Judaism" is the more preferable term to use as opposed to "Jewish" when describing such non-Christian religious thought, since not doing so raises many unnecessary points of argument. -Bikinibomb (talk) 07:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

On the NT New Covenant vs. Tanach NC, Hebrews is a good place to start in referencing Jeremiah, the big payoff being sons not paying for the sins of the fathers -- teeth set on edge -- which ultimately refers to the end of death and sin on the sons of Adam -- humanity -- and everlasting life for those who accept the New Covenant with God as administered by Messiah/Moshiach ("David" in Ezekiel 34:23, 35, etc.) That's it in a nutshell, as stated by both Tanach and NT text, they teach the same thing, not two radically different ideas. -Bikinibomb (talk) 07:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I like your word stereotype and think it goes to the heart of the issue. That issue being reality is more particular than human languages used to describe it. Is a stool a chair? Not that anyone would take offence at "exclusion" of chairs, or their stereotyping. As you say, Christian as a stereotype in Wiki language has blurry edges, but the Judaism-Christianity distinction can normally be assumed as uncontroversial, with the notable and difficult exception of Messianic Judaism (so called Messianic, if we are being very delicate in our terminology).

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with your reading of Ezekiel, which in context refers explicitly to the house of Israel (beth Israel). It is an excellent example of Christian reading of the Hebrew Bible. As a Christian I share your conviction of its applicability on the basis of many New Testament texts. However, would you agree a sincere, conservative Jewish reader could not conclude with certainty that Ezekiel (whether under divine inspiration or not) had Christians in mind? Alastair Haines (talk) 11:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Under Moses the seed of Israel could be cut off and no longer Israelite when breaking the Sabbath for example, while non-Israelites like Ruth could be acknowledged as Israelite if they accepted the God of Israel. Assuming Ezekiel knew about Ruth and past sojourners, he "should" have accounted for Gentiles who were "grafted in" as Israelites because they accepted what God offered, and also for those who descended from Jacob removed from Israel because they rejected what God offered. If there is any doubt with Ezekiel, Malachi 1:11 can further confirm this idea. -Bikinibomb (talk) 13:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is NOR: editors do not put their own views into articles - and V: wikipedia is not about the "truth" it is about verifiable points of view - and NPOV: we represent and identify all notable points of view. Bikinibomb is representing a Christian point of view and it can be included as long as it is clearly identified as such. We can contrast to it a Jewish point of view. There is no "true" Biblical view, only views of the Bible. Now, I know fundamentalists - Christian and Jewish alike - will claim that they are providing a literal reading of the Bible. But even this claim is a view and must be represented as such. As I have made clear, I would love an article on the book of Jeremiah that contrasts, for example, Christian interpretations of chapter 31 with Jewish inte3rpretations from the Mikraot Gedolot with the interpretations of the Anchor Bible. One can of course just quote Jeremeiah, but as soon as one makes any claims as to what the quote means, one is expressing a point of view and it must be identified as such.

By the way I take strong objection to Bikinibomb's distinction between Judiasm and Jewish. Among Jews it is unexceptional and uncontroversial to identify the two. If you ask a Jew what his or her religion is, s/he is at least as likely to say "Jewish" as "Judaism." Now, aside from "Messianic Jews," is their any Christin church or congregation that identifies its religion as "Judaism?" In this case, I am with your St. Augustine: Judaism is a religion of the flesh - it is the Jewish religion. Bikinibomb is free to provide verifiable Christian views, but please, do not distort the Jewish view. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record I'm Muslim and not representing any particular point of view except for the most neutral one. If in a comment on Judaism you would like to say that Jews believe all things Jewish belong to mainstream Judaism, and all things not of mainstream Judaism are not Jewish, that's acceptable POV and open to cited rebuttal. But peppering an article with "the Jewish view is this and the Christian view is that" is enforcing POV on the entire article and not acceptable, since intentionally or not you imply that nothing from the NT is from a Jewish view and therefore fabricated. If it is intended, it belongs in discussion of Judaism or in an NT Criticism section, not throughout the article with no qualification. So in general except in those cases, it is more proper to say "Judaism believes this and Christianity believes that." -Bikinibomb (talk) 13:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem modifying "Judaism" or "Jewish" with the words "mainstream" or "traditional." Slrubenstein | Talk 14:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I for one think this is a really helpful discussion, especially given our three different backgrounds. I'm inclined to agree with Slrubenstein that Jewish and Judaism would normally need explicit clarification if they were being used other than synonymously. Modifiers are probably preferable. That's not just a Jewish thing, it's simply English language usage, wouldn't we agree?

Regarding whether the text of the Bible expresses a proposition, say "God created the heavens and the Earth", I would think it would be a rather unusual view among scholars of any type to suggest that this was not the intention of Genesis 1:1. When Genesis was written, by whom (or "whoms"), what their sources, whether they intended "creation from nothing" or not, even whether monotheism is intended -- all these are "up for grabs", but divine sovereignty over creation as the intent of the text we now have is generally accepted, surely. But what's significant is that this proposition is attributed to the text. Interpretation actually implies something has been articulated warranting an attempt at understanding that articulation.

I would have thought that's the standard approach to dealing with many questions about the Bible in a neutral fashion. Establish the text as best as possible first. After that, all sorts of possible explanations for origin or transmission can be proposed, along with various differing interpretations. I believe the technical expressions for the epistemology of this is associated with the ideas of de dicto and de re beliefs.

Anyway, I'm inclined to think almost any outlandish possibility regarding the Bible has been published at one time or another, because so much has been written about it. Which raises another issue for me. How do we establish WP:UNDUE? It seems to me the ideal is to have sources that state or imply the boundaries of notable alternative opinions. What happens when we don't?

It's stimulating to consider these matters, though I suspect a lot of issues are not quite so interesting. ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 15:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel at all comfortable with the distinction between "Judaism" and "Jewish" if it means to include viewpoints of other religions. Generally when the distinction between the two is made, "Judaism believes" refers to the religion and "Jews believe" refers to the community of religious and secular Jews. It does not generally include those who affliate with another religion. This particular understanding is so fundamental that it is captured in the Israeli law of return - a secular Jew may return to Israel under the law of return. A Jew who has converted to another religion may not. This definition of the law of return has widespread acceptance by secular and religious Jews in the diaspora as well.

There is a similar consensus among all of the religious denominations of Judaism: a Jew who has converted to another religion is no longer sufficiently Jewish to be called to the Torah or to marry another Jew. Only by formally repudating that other religion may they regain status on an equal footing with other Jews. The most notable dissent to this point of view are the Messianic Jews. However, given WP:UNDUE I think we would be hard pressed to give the Messianic Jewish view equal weight to that of mainstream secular and religious Judaism.

As far as the mainstream Jewish view goes I think we need to distinguish between 1st-2nd century Judaism and later rabbinic Judaism. Most scholars agree that modern day rabbinic Judaism was in a formative stage during the 1st-2nd century. Only the lens of history lets us decide which of the many ideas put forth at that time should now in this day and age be considered as mainstream Jewish, mainstream Christian, or part of a shared Judeo-Christian heritage.

As for post 1-2nd century mainstream understandings of "new convenent" in Jeremiah, I cite the following sources:

• Rashi (medieval commentator) - stresses the clause "shall not be broken" and argues that the rules, laws, and ordinances associated with this "new covenent" will be the same. However, the human spirit will be such that the laws will be unbreakable. In support of the unchangability of the content of the covenant itself, he cites the fact that the last book of Nevaim (Prophets) is the prophet Malachi who closes the book saying "Remember the Torah of Moshe my servant, which I commanded him in Horev for all Israel, both statues and judgements". The Christian "new covenent" is a covenant apart from the law of Moses so clearly Rashi believes that Jeremiah is referring to something very different than the Christian "New covenent".
• Radak (medieval commentator) - takes a somewhat existentialist approach (really!) and argues that the covenant is "new" in the sense of ever fresh and vibrant in the minds of Jews. It is not broken because Jews won't get bored or tired of it so will always want to participate in it.
• Sefer Jeremiah. (Jerusalem: Mossad Rav Kook, 1983). This is an academic commentary on Jeremiah. The editors of this commentary bring out the point that there are other examples of post Sinai covenants:
  • Moses two covenants. The torah was given twice: first it was brought down from Sinai on tablets. Then Moses gave a long speech in Moav repeating the covenant. These are viewed as two covenants side by side: These are the words o fthe covenant, which the Lord commanded Modehs to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moav, besides the covenant which he made with them in Horev. (Deut 28:26)
  • Josiah and the book of the covenant And the king stood by a pillar and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and hist testimonies and hist statues with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant". (Kings II 23: 3).

It should be noted that many modern Jews consider the medieval commentators on equal or greater par with academic commentaries, especially when there is no conflict with academic understandings. Best, Egfrank (talk) 15:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating and informative as always Egfrank. Yet again important blind-spots in my knowledge are addressed. The Law of Return explains aspects of Jewish culture I have observed in my Jewish friends, without knowing the background. It does indeed give a very concrete expression to an unbroken cultural tradition. Although there are meaningful distinctions between Jewish ethnicity and the faith of Judaism, the two are much more tightly bound than in most cultures. Though I believe traditional adherents of many religions including Hindu, Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant have ostracised inter-marriage in particular where "inter" is defined either on religious or cultural grounds. Alastair Haines (talk) 16:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Rashi et al., these understandings sound broadly consistant with John Calvin's readings, (and certainly with my own, by the way). The only thing I disagree with is the close of Malachi, which I understand to refer to the return of Elijah to re-establish heartfelt family solidarity, lest haShem also return with herem for a disobedient land. (Drat! Can't cut and paste the text.) Alastair Haines (talk) 16:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Your observation about Elijah I think actually adds a new dimension to Rashi and may explain why he felt that passage was particularly appropriate for his point. In Jewish thought both Elijah mentioned in Malachai and the phrase "yamim habaim" that begin Jeremiah 31:30 have connotations of the Messianic age. So from Rashi point of view, this verse in Malachi referring to the covenant at Sinai is specifically talking about the "new covenant" that Jeremiah says will exist in the Messianic era.

But one should not assume that the Messianic implications of both passages mean that Jews believe they refer to the Christian "New Covenant". Jews understand the Messianic age in light of Rashi's belief that new=unbreakable and various other promises of a world at peace (e.g. Isaiah 2:4)[1]. An unbreakable covenant would imply that the actions of members of the covenant would never deviate from the will of God - that is, a world without sin, or at the very least a covenantial community without sin; where the widow and orphan are always taken care of; where social justice is the norm without exception; where peace reigns in even the most unlikely of circumstances.

The Christian "New Covenant" is defined in terms of the relationship to God created by faith in the atoning nature of the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. However much faith in Jesus has the power to transform lives or reconcile the soul to God or even make the soul blameless before God, it does not prevent Christians from making mistakes, hurting others, and acting from time to time in unethical or unjust ways.

Some Jewish thinkers, like Franz Rosenzweig and Pinchas Lapide even see the hand of God in the Christian story. However, because the world is not yet perfect, the one thing all agree on is that Jesus is not the bearer of the same "new covenent" promised in Jeremiah and alluded to in Malachai. Egfrank (talk) 17:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I want to make an edit to the article Bible . Please go to my most recent previous post in this discussion ( 01:04 18 Nov. 2007 UTC ) and consider those first three sentences of it . That would be my edit ......... I have practised this edit by using the " Edit This Article " feature and am having some problems and need help to incorperate my edit properly ... Pilotwingz (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Pilotwingz, I hear you. Do you want to make an edit to the small box at the top right of the article? Or do you want to edit the text of the main article? The small box is actually a special thing, and I would love to help explain how it works for you. Alastair Haines (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Alastair , the edit to the article Bible has been entered ........ My objective was exactly as I had stated , which was to make known that Testament and Covenant are interchangable as synonyms in relation to the Christian Bible sections Old Testament and New Testament and to give reference to that fact .......... the article New Covenant has been linked for readers and contributers to take up the work of any theological aspects regarding further understanding or explanations ............ and it may just be my own personal opinion , but the article New Covenant needs a great deal of work !!! ...... and as a side note , I will be exceedingly surprised if my edit is not reverted within 24 hrs. Pilotwingz (talk) 02:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Jewishness, NC

New section needed here. In reply, the reasoning seems to be in favor of, for example, "The Jewish version of the Bible, the Tanakh..." because it is the religious book of the Jewish people. In saying that in comparison to the NT, does it mean that the Tanach was written by Jews and the NT wasn't? Or does it mean that only Jews read the Tanach? In neither case does it make sense or is it unbiased to use the term "Jewish" when comparing it to the NT, it is more accurate to say that "the Tanach is a text used in Judaism and a form of the the Tanach called the OT plus the NT is a text used in Christianity" or something of that nature. It may require a few more words to clarify but sometimes that's unavoidable. This is why NPOV is required on Wikipedia, to avoid phrasing articles in a way that conveys only one opinion, even if it seems to be the most popular depending on our own personal experience.

As for the New Covenant, there are straight readings and conclusions within the actual text although you will still need external sources to cite for them. For example, where the Tanach states that sins of fathers are no longer on children (Jeremiah 31:29), it is departure from conditions set forth in Exodus 20:5. In general, a state of the New Covenant where sin doesn't exist anymore dictates that most of the Laws of Moses regarding punishment and sin sacrifice are rendered obsolete, thus changed in that regard. Where the Tanach says there is no more darkness in the evening and perpetual daylight, Sabbath laws are also changed: no more observance at sundown. Etc. Which is all in agreement with NT implications, that Laws of Moses do indeed change with the NC, they are not simply renewed -- the straight renewal concept is fine to note as an opinion of sages but it cannot accurately be used as the only view.

Moving to the NT, Jesus himself says in Matthew 5:18 that this doesn't happen until heaven and earth pass, and that Laws of Moses will be in effect until that time. So likewise, you won't want to imply that the NT New Covenant is all about doing away with those Laws right now and just "getting the faith." Again it's ok to note that various Christians may say that and that it is the popular Christian view, but not correct to say it is the actual message of NT text. In short care needs to be taken with both texts to avoid overgeneralization and reliance upon the most popular views since as we see, they are often not the most accurate. -Bikinibomb (talk) 20:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Am I correct in my thinking that the article Bible is not the place for any theological elaborations , but that links contained within it may and should direct a reader to a theological article having such elaborations ??? Pilotwingz (talk) 21:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct, thus my statement "you will still need external sources to cite for them." As a matter of courtesy I thought it best to discuss these more neutral views first -- "neutral" being the point at which concepts of Judaism and Christianity come closest to agreement rather than at odds -- instead of charging ahead on my own to include them, which would then bypass other editors possibly inclined to offer a more exclusive "us vs. them" presentation of the Bible. -Bikinibomb (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Although when referencing a notable version like KJV and a verse in it says something like "the sky is blue" I wouldn't feel compelled to cite a scholar agreeing that the Bible says "the sky is blue" since the Bible itself is sufficient source. However if I elaborated by saying "the sky is blue because God likes the color blue" and the verse doesn't say God likes blue then obviously another source is required to avoid OR. Hope that clarifies. -Bikinibomb (talk) 21:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

How about an internal source for a link ( an existing Wiki. article ) ?? Pilotwingz (talk) 22:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Pilotwingz (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent point you make Bikinibomb — "you won't want to imply that the NT New Covenant is all about doing away with those Laws". Wiki cannot present the NT as "doing away" with the Mosaic covenant without qualification. Nor, however, can it simply quote the words attributed to Jesus in the NT that specifically deny this, in order to establish that point. One reason for this is Jesus' words include, alongside the denial, an assertion of fulfilment, which introduces complexities we can not assume a reader can establish independent of expert analysis, and because there is more than one notable, expert opinion.

However, we are drifting (a little) from the topic of improving the Bible article in discussing related theological questions, which is no problem unless it is getting in the way of progress, but should probably be noted.

Pilotwingz — Yes! I think an internal link is sufficient verification. If the Wiki article you point to is itself verified by reliable sources, that's ideal, sometimes those sources can be copied to the sentence that links, other times that would clutter an article. It would be odd to copy all references at Tanakh to the end of the first sentence regarding Tankah in this article. However, if one reference at Tanakh specifically verifies what is claimed in this article, why not copy that reference into this one also? I imagine you are thinking of Covenant. If in doubt, copy a reference from that article. If nothing suitable exists, let's find something! Let us know what kind of source you need, and we can find one together. Egfrank seems to be a human scanner and has read libraries of information! :) Alastair Haines (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Eventually in the appropriate articles I may contribute sources to show at least three main views various Christians hold of NC regarding full Torah observance: 1. it's no longer necessary for anyone after the crucifixion, 2. it's necessary for everyone, and 3. it's still necessary for Jewish Christians with a form of Noahide necessary for Gentile Christians (similar to Judaism, Mat 5:18-19 & Acts 15). But for now, thanks for responding to my other points. -Bikinibomb (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a helpful contribution. I have read all three views, in various places. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Alastair , read the opening of the article Bible and tell me what you think please ........ Added are three ( 3 ) sentences relating to testament/covenant culminating with the link New Covenant ......... Pilotwingz (talk) 04:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism

I'm sorry to open a can of worms, but I'm wondering what people think (especially Egfrank), about the following suggestion.

From a Jewish perspective (or the perspective of Judaism), groups describing their views as Messianic Judaism are no more Jewish than Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian, from a Christian perspective (for precisely opposite reasons). Whereas, from a Christian perspective, the category of Jewish Christian is very natural.

How should Wiki deal with this? Currently, and I'm content with it, MJ is used, possibly because:

1. MJ is the verifiable autonym;
2. Judaism has historical precedence over Christianity, hence Messianic Judaism rather than Jewish Christianity; and
3. most don't know Messiah = Christ, hence MJ sounds less contradictory than Jewish Christianity.

Point (1) seems to be decisive.

My point is this, intriguingly, from the majority Jewish and Christian positions, MJ would more naturally be described as Jewish Christianity -- hence clearly apostate from the Jewish perspective, while clearly affiliated, from the Christian perspective.

It is interesting to note that Jews and Christians can enjoy similarities of conviction at many points, and are motivated to work together on various projects, so long as they are not pressured to surrender their differences. MJ, by definition, crosses that boundary, and in a way more intrusive on Judaism than Christianity. MJ is to Judaism, what Judaizers were to Christianity in New Testament times. Judaizers held that authentic Christianity must be scrupulously Jewish. Christians, since Saul of Tarsus, have rigorously excluded this option. The difference, it would seem, is that Judaizers no longer exist, but MJ does. It is interesting to note that the Judaizing POV is (I think) absent from Wiki presentations, presumably because it is no longer notable. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think according to them, "Messianic Jews" is preferred since "Christianity" may imply lack of Torah observance. Often from a Jewish POV there are two types of Messianics. The first are "real" Jews, that is, born from a Jewish mother or receiving an orthodox conversion, who come to believe in Jesus as Messiah. Typically they are seen by fellow Jews as mostly harmless, just wayward and misguided much like Lubavitchers who believe the Rebbe is Moshiach. They are often still considered to be real Jews. Then there are "fake" Jews, basically Christians who have copied some Jewish customs and terminology to make them appear to be Jewish in order to lure "real" Jews into Messianic Judaism. These types are seen as more harmful to Judaism and much less tolerated. Note that these aren't my opinions, just what I've observed. -Bikinibomb (talk) 05:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Four points:

• I think the editor above may be underestimating the pain that may be caused when a Jew opts out of Judaism. It doesn't matter whether the new religion is called "Messianic Judaism" or "foobar". Reactions of families vary a great deal. Some families quite literally go into mourning, i.e. sit shiva and write the family member off as "dead". Others feel that family ties are more important than religion and so will try to maintain a relationship. They may even go out of their way to understand why this choice made sense to their child/sibling. But these efforts at inclusion and empathy do not change the underlying pain. Often in even the most liberal families religion is a tense topic. Unspoken feelings of sadness and rejection may run deep. Concerns about the long term fate of grandchildren (will they be Jewish? are they lost forever?) hang in the air.
• Whether we look at the current range of Jewish denominations or the historical changes in Judaism, Jewish understandings of Torah/law/observance have and do vary a great deal and are not necessary literal extractions from the Tanakh. There is a story in the Talmud where Moses is sitting in the academy of the 1st century rabbi Akiva. He hears many new things about the Torah - laws he doesn't remember as part of the covenant of Sinai and begins to worry. But Moses relaxes when Rabbi Akiva closes the lecture saying "and all this we have received from Moses on Sinai".

  All forms of Judaism, whether orthodox or liberal, stress the importance of an unbroken chain. Orthodox tend to see (as did Akiva) that every "new" thing is really there in the Torah originally and if it seems distant then we simply don't have the greatness of mind or prophetic insight that those like Rabbi Akiva or Rabbi Hillel did. Us ordinary folk are not in a position to bring out "new" things.

  Liberal Jews tend to give a greater role to "ordinary folk" and have differing opinions about whether the story of Moses is historical or cultural truth or both at once. This flexibility gives them more options when trying to help modern Jews connect to the "chain". For some this takes the form of stressing the ethical laws over ritual laws (e.g. Kaufmann Kohler's ethical monotheism). Others, like Martin Buber have stressed the existential relationship to God and treated "Torah" as a subjective and highly malleable and individualized expression of that relationship. For still others this takes the form of finding new symbols that perform the same function as an older ritual (what Mordechai Kaplan calls "transvaluing"). Yet others (Heschel, Franz Rosenzweig) feel it is enough to reinterpret or revalue traditional ritual so that it has a firmer connection to the present.

  However, even the most ahistorical of the bunch believe at root that all things "new" still capture the fundamental terms of the jewish covenant begun with the story of Abraham and detailed on Sinai. Like Christians, Jews have their own "kerygma" - a story that captures the existential experience of the faith community. The outward form may change, but never the inner commitment or the fundamental ontological relationship to God signified by the covenant of Sinai.

  When a Jew decides to convert to Christianity it is percieved as a rejection of that commitment, and often of the people that hold it. So it doesn't really matter if they keep Shabbat like a black-hat in Lakewood. It doesn't matter whether they convert as a "Messianic Jew" or an ordinary Baptist or Anglican. What a Jew sees is a break in the chain - a rejection of a 4000 year contract/love relationship between Abraham, God, and the Jewish people.

• Lubobvichers - I think the jury is still out on this one. Jewish feelings appear to be deeply ambivalent. On one hand, the movement has helped many Jews reacquaint themselves with a rich Jewish tradition. On the other hand, their messianic beliefs are generally viewed as outside the scope of Judaism. I recently heard that Yeshiva university is now asking Lubobovicher students to sign a pledge saying that they do not believe Menacham Schneerson is the messiah.
• The most modern day notable use of the phrase "messianic Judaism" is the modern day Jewish christians. However, historically there have been many messianic movements. Two come to mind within modern times: Sabbatai Zevi in the 1600's, Jacob Frank in the 1700's and more recently the Lubovicher movement. For various reasons, these have been considered Jewish in ways that "Jews for Jesus" has never been.

Alastair - I think you have hit the nail on the head as to why Christian Messianic Judaism is so disturbing to many Jews - it does attempt to blur the boundaries and obscure differences. But I also think it is more. It actually attempts to redefine Judaism. Messianic Jews often try to claim their Jewishness by saying "we observe Torah" but in doing so they often "freeze" Torah into a particular interpretation - often biblical, sometimes traditional orthodox.

By contrast, the Jewish community allows a lot of latitude in "what Torah means". To be sure disagreements can be intense and sometimes even degerate into spitting matches where each side blames the other of "destroying Judaism and its future". But even in the midst of such debates, we all have at our back a tradition that goes out of its way to preserve a wide range of opinions on all kinds of Jewish practice. The talmud illustrates this not only in its preservation of multiple disagreements, but also in its stories. Once, it reports, there was a long standing debate (3 years running) about the status of an oven. The school of Hillel and the school of Shammai stood on opposite sides of the debate (as they often did). Finally God speaks from on high "Elu v'elu divrei elokim chaim" - these and these are the words of the living God.[2]

What Jews do not give on is the one thing that Messianic Jews reject - the sufficiency of the existential relationship Jews have to each other and to big threesome God, Torah, and Israel. This sufficiency is what keeps us together even when we fight. Amazingly, even secularists like Mordechai Kaplan, still find the need to build their thought around these categories. For Kaplan, "Isreal" became a "volk" with a unique path through history. "God" became the embodiment of the values of that "volk" and "Torah" became the body of cultural practices that expressed those values. Egfrank (talk) 07:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between an observant Jew who has an opinion about who is Messiah -- could be Jesus, could be resurrected Daniel, could be the Rebbe -- as opposed to a Jew who entirely converts out of Judaism to become a Catholic, for example. To use familiar terminology, one is a heretic still within Judaism, the latter is an apostate converted out of it.

Though I was primarily addressing intrusiveness and damage in terms of missionary efforts regarding attitudes toward the two types of "Messianic Jews" I mentioned, I understand grief caused by Jewish belief in Jesus as Messiah, not seeming to be so much a matter of theology -- Jews opting for total atheism typically cause far less pain to their more religious loved ones than those who opt for Jesus -- but a cultural matter of embracing a POV historically associated with Jewish persecution and thus being a "traitor to the cause." -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we have a terminology problem here, but I am not getting the difference between "an observant Jew who has an opinion about who is the Messiah" (i.e. Jesus is the Messiah) and "a Jew who entirely converts out of Judaism to become a Catholic". I'm getting the impression here that you think the problem is cultural (a common claim of Christian Messianic Jews) and that it can be addressed if only those "converts" were to stay culturally Jewish.

It can't - no more than wearing an abaya turns a man into a woman. Although we have been talking about culture, the problem is fundamentally theological. Christianity at heart claims both personal and communal salvation through the story of Jesus. It isn't merely a factual claim about who is or is not the Messiah. Christians (including Messianic Christians) believe they are loved by God because Jesus died on the cross for them. (John 3:16)

Jews, on the other hand, believe they are loved by God because of 4000 years of Jewish history. For them that history serves the same function as the Jesus story for Christians.

What we have is two communities with two different core mutually exclusive "Myths" (Note: myth in the technical sense here - no implication here about historicity or validity intended) each serving a similar function. For both communities, their respective myth helps them understand that they can't strong arm God into loving or forgiving them; that God's love is a gift freely given; that their relationship with God is unbreakable, even if they descend into the very depths of hell (Psalm 139); that forgiveness comes to those who repent not because of who we are but because it is in God's very nature (Psalm 51); that God does not desire the death of any human being, but rather that each turn from his or her sin and live. (Ezekiel 18:23).[3].

Both communities believe that their core myths are sufficient and need no supplement. That is why Christianity rejected Judaizers (who said you needed something more than Jesus). That is why even the most liberal Judaism rejects Jews for Jesus and other Christian messianic Jews (who say they need something more than God+Torah+Israel). Best, Egfrank (talk) 13:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I am wondering if there is a much denominationalism and schism in Judaic worship , as there is in Christianity and Islamic practices ............ Pilotwingz (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Some Christians say Catholicism is the only true Christianity, others say Mormonism is fake Christianity. Some Muslims say only the Quran is authoritative, other say you aren't a real Muslim if you don't accept Hadith. Then of course Judaism has its own pecking orders and criteria for who is a real Jew and who is really practicing Judaism. Orthodox factions may insist real Judaism involves wearing tefillin. Neturei Karta say real Judaism renounces Zionism. Other Jews say that atheist Jews can still practice Judaism by fulfilling whatever mitzvot they can, apart from belief in God.

And then you have some Jews who say that because an observant Jew decides to believe Jesus is the king promised to David, he or she can no longer really be a Jew or practicing Judaism. Of all differences among Jews, this seems to be the one most Jews agree on. When we compare this deviation with others, I can only personally conclude that the primary cause of irritation with so-called Christian thought has more to do with cultural and historical associations with Jewish persecution, rather than with intense violations of theology. Since again as I mentioned, if it was mostly a theological concern it would seem to be highly lopsided compared to far fewer protests over Jews who turn to atheism which throws out the very reason Jews and Judaism came to exist in the first place, as recorded in the Tanach. -Bikinibomb (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

But back to the real question of how to categorize those who call themselves Messianic Jews...if they say they are Jews practicing Judaism adopting some elements of Christian thought then I'd say you would need to defer and categorize it as Judaism and them as Jews, with any appropriate rebuttals and criticisms within relevant articles. That being based on the same principles of treating observant Jews who happen to adopt some elements of Buddhism, for example, as still being Jews practicing Judaism, rather than editors arbitrarily deciding that they are no longer Jews practicing Judaism and insisting on categorizing them as Buddhists only. -Bikinibomb (talk) 17:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you to everyone for your wonderful comments.

Pilotwingz, I imagine you appreciate as much as I do, the honest "inside look" Egfrank gives us of Jewish understanding and issues.

Bikinibomb, how on Earth do you know so much about everything! :D

Egfrank, it's a funny thing, but I love MJ because they are Christians who value the Jewish roots of Christianity with all their hearts — it's in their blood! I also love them because we share the same canon of the Bible and they tend to treat that canon as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... nothing more, and nothing less. I cannot worship a Jewish man as my God without caring about the Jewish people. For me, MJ represents the reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles (Ephesians 2). I feel it when I read their writing, and listen in on their blog discussions.

However, here's an odd thought for you. Among Christians, you'd think MJ would be the least "supersessionist", and technically this would probably be true. But I wonder if, from a family Jewish perspective, MJ's often conservative commitment to the Torah only underlines their leaving it. Scratch enough and they do indeed admit that Jesus is sufficient and Torah observance is a special devotion to a family relationship with God. MJ are not Judaizers. Being very biased here, they are conservative Christians of the very best sort.

How is the Torah replaced for a Gentile Christian? She never had the Torah in the first place! Christianity brings Gentiles closer to Sinai (though they typically don't understand this), but it moves the MJ away, in the language of Hebrews 12, from Sinai to Zion! Though I doubt the Law of Return would appreciate the analogy. ;)

Thanks for sharing, in a dignified but open way, this family business with friendly outsiders. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Bikinibomb writes ". Of all differences among Jews, this seems to be the one most Jews agree on. When we compare this deviation with others, I can only personally conclude that the primary cause of irritation with so-called Christian thought has more to do with cultural and historical associations with Jewish persecution, rather than with intense violations of theology." Without under-emphasizing the inmpact of pesecution, I disagree. I think Judaism is as St. Augustine said a religion of the flesh - which is why for all Jews of all movements the sine qua non (for males) is circumscision - inscribing the covenant with God on the flesh itself. I think that what so disturbs Jews about Christianity is how spiritual it is. Paul (and most Jews i know who are knwoldgable have more problems with Paul than with jesus) establishes the importance of the crucified Jesus, the Jesus of the spirit. The Jesus of the spirit allows for a circumcision of the spirit, not the flechl, which enables ALL humans to be one in Christ (Galetians, there is ntierh Jew nor Gentile) ... for Jews (right or wrong) Christianity effects a metaphysical Holoocaust because Jews can enter heaven only by giving up what makes them distinct, their Jewishness. I think at a viscefral level Jews do not get trhe whole heavn/hell thing. I think rabbinic Judaism and Christianity developed at the same time, and they knew about each other, and they were consciously making themselvs different each from the other. So it is not surprise Chrsitianity really rankles Jews - rabbinic judaism develoed to a degree to be as different from Christianity as possibly, and vice versa. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems so strange in my spirit to hear that " what so disturbs Jews about Christianity , is how spiritual it is " ....... those who nurtured and raised me are/were Israel ....... without them I would never have been able understand the love our Father has for us ........... without them I would be lost and wandering in darkness .......... they gave me their spirit that was given them by God .......... if only I were able to walk as worthy and reverned in spirit as they , in as humble and honorable a way as they ........... if only I could give in return something as precious for what they have given me ............ those who raised me were the most devotionally Spiritual people I have ever known and dare say ever will ........... It can not be possible that Jews believe Christians are more spiritual .......... it is totally incomprehensible to me ....... Pilotwingz (talk) 03:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What a wonderful testimonial Pilotwingz! :)) I'm sure Slrubenstein would be the first to acknowledge very many spiritual Jews (not just Jewish mystics). I think his point is that there is something "fleshly" (could I also say "earthy"?) about Judaism in a very broad sense, and this is something recognized by modern scholars, as well as first century scholars.

Between you and me Pilotwingz, I think Jesus refers to this Jewish fleshliness, where it is not opposed to spirituality, quite positively, because it reflects his own reading of the Law and the Prophets. "God sends rain on the righteous and the wicked." "God clothes the flowers of the fields and feeds the birds of the air."

Even more profoundly, Jesus says "this is my body, broken for you." "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood." This is very earthy, very fleshly, very Jewish! And Jesus of Nazareth does not escape his culture, he speaks within it and to it.

Again, between you and me, this is one of the things that I think the Jewish scriptures teach me as a Christian. I think many of us Christians rush to spiritual interpretations, whereas the Jewish writers of the New Testament were able to make such spiritualizations reliably, because of their deep familiarity with the "fleshliness" of the Jewish Scriptures.

The more I try to understand the Law, the Prophets and all the Writings, as they were originally framed (as best we can recover), the more deeply I understand what Matthew, and Mark, and John, Paul and Peter were saying. Or at least I imagine I do.

Didn't Jesus teach that spirituality was expressed by loving your enemy. He doesn't mean it in an abstract way. He says "turn the other cheek." If we believe he deliberately set himself up to be crucified, isn't this flesh and blood spirituality. Sure, it goes significantly beyond and outside mainstream Judaism, but the practicality of Jesus teachings, the sweating honesty of them, feels very Jewish to me. What do you think? Alastair Haines (talk) 05:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Those are beautiful words, Pilotwingz. Jews wrote the psalms so of course we see things spiritually as well as earthily. I think Slrubenstein's point is that Judaism gets to spirituality by looking at the here and now. We like to face the hard facts of life - to hold them in our hands and turn them over wondering what they mean. We understand atheism because we know exactly where it comes from. We understand its hard honesty. Yes, the verdict of our history and our collective faith is that God is, but the verdict has never been God is obvious, easy to understand, easy to see.

Slrubenstien is also alluding to Jews paradoxical ability to look way beyond the here and now by focusing on the day to day. In Christianity there is no borrowed faith - either one believes (and is saved) or one does not. But Jews borrow each others faith all the time and this borrowing is what saves us. That is why community is so important and we are warned by Rabbi Hillel - Do not separate yourself from the community (Pirke Avot 2:5). We don't all have to believe at once - we just need to hold each other up long enough to continue to raise our kids, feed our families, to patch the world where it is broken, and bring on the next generation. Jews have a long history..we know in our bones that a thousand days of human kind is but one in the eyes of God. It doesn't have to all work out in our own life times. Again from Pirke Avot: You are not required to complete the task but neither may you refrain from it. (Pirke Avot 3:21)

We remind ourselves of God and/or our connection to fellow Jews through fleshy symbols like circumcision and dietary habits or through our ethical and financial choices. For example, many people explain kashrut (a spiritual dietary discipline) as a way of educating our flesh to understand that there is something more than just food. By making our food choices a consciously considered act we learn what Moses taught in Deuteronomy (8:3): Humankind does not live by bread alone but rather human beings live by every word that comes out of the mouth of the God. Sex and procreation are the most basic of human instincts - they are the ultimate symbol of life - so Jews put symbols on them too. Fine to say "I love God". That is good. But to change the way you experience the process of creating life (which I'm told circumcision does do) - well that is a commitment that stays with one in the most intimate and concrete of ways.

Slrubenstien is also I think means to say that Jews think spirituality has to be acted out "in the flesh" - it can't just stay in our heads. When bad things happen Jews don't just say "it will be better in the world to come". Jews ask: "why is the world broke? what can we do to help fix it". And even more importantly, "What can I do to fix it?".

There is a lovely story by Rabbi Marc Gellman that I would like to tell. In this story God is making the earth and Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are told to take care of the earth (Gen. 1:26) but they complain that they need help - God has the plans and they are too little. So God says to Adam and Eve - OK, I'll help you but we have to work together as partners. A little later the angels ask God "Is creation done yet?". God answers "I don't know - go ask my partners!". (Rabbi Marc Gellman. Does God have a big toe?).

What can possibly be more spiritual than being a partner with God in creation? And by the way - Jews believe this particular story isn't just for Jews. Jews believe that we are all - Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Daoist, Pagan, Jew - we are all partners with God. This is because Judaism also teaches that all human beings were created from one first human being (Adam) so that no one could say I'm more human, I'm more a partner than anyone else.(Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5) Creation needs each and every one of us. Best, Egfrank (talk) 09:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I very much appreciate Alistair and Egfrank's very thoughtful and constructive efforts to explain my point. I think i can explain myself a bit more clearly ... but still in a way that may require other people's help at elaborating. I believe that Paul's major contribution to theistic theology is the rely on and apply a binary opposition between the spirit and the flesh. My point is that this opposition does not exist in Judaism, for the most part. I do not mean that Jewish or Israelite poets have never employed a contrast betweeen flesh and spirit. I do mean two things. First, I do not think they mean by spirit the same thing that Christians think. I think a Jewish notion of the soul, that corresponds to the Christian version (which I am arguing has its immediate roots in Paul and its deeper roots in Plato), similarly has its early roots in the influence of Hellenic culture, and later the influence of Christians - but not in ancient Israelite thought (the hebrew Bible) and Rabbinic thought (the Talmuds) ... the "spirit" in Ancient Israelite religion is breath which animates the body but has no existence independent of the body and dies with the body (for Jews, the messianic age brings about the resurection of the body (including the breath that animates it). Secondly, I think that in Jewish religion (the Hebrew Bible and Rabbinic literature) any opposition between body and spirit or heart is rhetorical but in Pauline theology it is ontological. This has consequences not only for how Jews view their bodies, but how we read texts. I think Paul's reading of the Bible relies largely on allegory - that just as the flesh masks a hidden, inner spirit, the words of the text mask a hidden, inner meaning. In other words, hermeneutically, meaning comes from a difference between the surface of the text and its depths. In Jewish (Rabbinic) thought, our hermeneutics is not primarily allegory but midrash - in which meaning comes from a play of difference between words in one text (or part of the tex) and another, i.e. a play of difference on the "surface."

So my immediate - and superficial i.e. less complete than Alistair's and Egfrank's - response to Pilotwingz is that he and I are using a different language and when I say what fundamentally puts jews off from Christianity is that it is so spiritual, I am also calling into question what we mean by "spiritual." If I may now re-explain my point, what I mean is this: Christian theology as I understand it makes an ontological distinction between flesh and spirit and privileges the spirit (though I acknowledge that the Church fathers were always concerned that some Christians might take their privileging of the spirit too far, which is why Gnosticism was deemed heretical). By contrast, I think Jews simply do not traditionally make this ontological distinction between body and spirit. Since they do not make this ontological distinction, they do not privilege "spiritual." But this does not mean Jews do not do things that a Christian, using the language of Christianity, would not recognize as "spiritual." Max Kadushin has a lovely phrase which he applies to Rabbinic thought called "normal mysticism" by which he meant not only that Jews were "spiritual" in quotidian ways, but also through their bodies and fleshy things. Put another way, normal mysticism is about "the flesh and material world understood as holy" - again, to respond to Pilotwingz, I would say that Jews, and the psalmists, are not very "spiritual," they are "holy" - hoiliness is the key word in Hebrew and Rabbinic religious thought, not "spiritual" (because spiritual is the opposite of material, but holy is the opposite of unholly, not the opposite of material).

Now all of you, being very educated, are already thinking of exceptions to my claims, so let me try to anticipate the major ones. First, Philo - he like Paul was influenced by Hellenic (specifically, Platonic) philosophy and developed an allegorical reading of the Bible. So Paul was not the only or first Jew to seek to synthesize Hebrew and Hellenic thought. But, Philo never became very important in Jewish thought/theology. The rabbis never excommunicated him, but neither did they elevat hi. His allegorical approach to reading texts was largely ignored in favor of midrash, the privileged Rabbinic way of reading texts. Second, Kabbalah - which I (following many scholars) would also argue was deeply influenced by Platonic dualisms. true enough. But this I would argue is precisely why rabis asserted that before one study kabbalah one must be 40 years old, married, and a Talmud scholar. Marriage is important because it privileges the flesh (we are talking not just about a functioning household, but the value of sex, of carnal relations); Talmud scholar means a mastery over what max kadushin called "normal mysticism," what I would call "spirituality through the flesh and the material world" or even better, "the flesh and material world understood as holy." And within Kabbalistic thought there is a strong emphasis on not rejecting the material. Someone will correct me (or be more precise0 but in the Talmud or some midrash there is a story of a rabbi who is embarking on a kabblistic quest to enter God's heavenly throne-room, and is warned that the marble floor is so shiny that the rabbi might think it is wet but if he thinks that he will be denied entrance into God's presense. When he enters God's palace he sees the floor and cries our "water!" and thus returns to his regular life. This is a powerful message I think about materiality and how even mystics must not lose sight of the concrete (in this case - marble! which is even harder i think than concrete). I know that there are other examples of Jewish mysticism, and indeed examples of where Platonic philosophy - with its distinction between the apparent material world and the hidden ideal reality - have influenced Jewish thought ... during the middle ages and even today Christianity too has and continues to influence Jews and Judaism ... and one can find examples of Jews celebrating the spirit over the body. I just think that these examples are relatively few and marginal in Hebraic and Rabbinic thought.

Talmud scholar Daniel Boyarin wrote a lovely little book on this theme called Carnal Israel. He points out the Judaism as we know it - Rabbinic Judaism - largely (not entirely, but largely) developed after the emergence of Christianity and he suggests that as the Rabbis and Christians offered competing visions of Judaism - and competed for Jewish leadership - after the destruction of the Temple, they consciously and unconsciously emphasized those elements of Pharisaic and Hebrew thought that contrasted most clearly with Christian thought. He wrote another book asking why Christianity has so many martyrs and Judaism so few and suggests in a similar style of argument that the rabbis and Christians developed contrasting responses to Roman oppression. He doesn't claim that one is right and the other wrong, or one better than the other - he just points out that when people live under colonial oppression they typically have a variety of ways to resist. Uncle Tom's Cabin similarly portrays a variety of forms of oppression and a variety of possible ways of responding to oppression. Stowe's Uncle Tom - if not a Christ figure, then certainly an explicit representation of Christian values - is one way to respond ... a way that makes him Stowe's hero, but that many blacks today disdain. She also has characters that represent other responses (escape, rebellion, etc.) For Boyarin, Rabbis and Christians twoo offered contrasting ways of responding to oppression. While he does not judge them politically, he doesn't say one is better than the other, he does say that this difference is another example in which the Christian distinction between body and spirit, and value of the spirit, is part of what makes martyrdom - death - both easier to accept and even to celebrate, whereas the Jewish idea that the body itself is holy and holiness is experienced on earth, in earthly - and "earthy" ways - makes martyrdom both less appealing and less meaningful. Not that judaism does not have its martyers, just that they are not as many and do not have the same status as martyrs do for Christianity. There is a famous story of a woman and her sons who were martyred by Antiochus Epiphanes (leading to the macabeean rebellion) and he points out that she and her sons are remembered more as victims justifying rebellion than as saints to be revered.

One final example. I once had a conversation with a colleague about the pressure we feel from our parents to have children, and he said - and I had never thought of it this way, but instantly felt he was right - that it is tied up with the relative unimportance of heaven in Judaism, and our relative lack of interest in any afterlife (relative to Christianity). God's covenant is with the people of Israel. Individual death is not a problem for Jews, because the people of Israel lives on (one reason the Holocaust was such a traumatic incident - not just the death of six million, but the threat of genocide - the death not of many individuals but of the nation itself. It is that death that would end the covenant with God, so the possibility that God might permit a genocide theologically is profoundly troubling to Jews in a way that individual death is not). Our holiness relies on the continued reproduction of Jewish bodies, and our immortality is not in the spirit (when we die our sould lives on) but in the flesh, in our children. In a way, what heaven is for Christians, children are for Jews. I really believe this, and it is consistent with my reading of the hebrew bible and Talmud (not that i am a real scholar). I hope this explains what I mean about Christianity being too spiritual. I do not mean to offend Christians, I think their religion is perfectly reasonable. But I think that on this point - Christians distinguishing between mortal flesh and immortal spirit, and Jews distinguishing between holy matter and unholy matter Judaism and Christianity are most opposit or antithetical and I think this - more than any history of anti-Semitism or racism or religious oppression - may be why it so upsets jewish parents when their children convert to Christianity more than if a jewish shild is an atheist. Even as an atheist, as long as the child doesn't renounce his or her Jewishness, God is fulfilling his promise to Abraham that his children - children of the flesh (not "spiritual children") - will be like the stars in the sky or the grains of sand. A child who converts to Christianity is the loss of flesh in a double sense: the child's body is no longer Jewish, a subtraction from God's covenant with Abraham, and the child him/herself is renouncing a religion of the flesh for one of the spirit which, however much I can understand intellectually as a system of thought, just rubs against the grain of everything I know and feel about God and religion, because I was reared in a religion of the flesh. I am not sure how many Christians are aware of this, but for many Jews - this was clear to me groing up - Christianity is not bad or hateful or odious so much as, it just doesn't make sense to us. I think this is because we grow up speaking entirely different "languages" (or "metalanguages") of religion, and I think that the Christian language is premised on an opposition between body and spirit that does not exist in the Jewish language, and it is this difference that just makes much of Christianity simply unintelligible to Jews. I hope this is a better explanation of what I wrote earlier.

Pilotendz doesn't understand how I could say that Jews react negatively to Christian spirituality when s/he sees his/her own spirituality as deriving from jews' love of God. I hope it is clear that to me, nothing I wrote meant that Jews do NOT love God. But we love him through the flesh - a perfect example being how Jewish parents, who identify as jewish but do not obey jewish law, will nevertheless have their sons circumcised. I did not mean to say that there is something objectively wrong with Christian spirituality, I was only trying to explain a difference between Judaism and Christianty that explains why it so hurts a Jewish parent when his or her child converts to Christianity. Christians see a soul that is still wedded to God. Jews see the loss of a body. And I wish Pilotendz and other Christians could understand this Jewish language of religion - even if they do not "agree" with it or accept it as their own - but understand this Jewish language of religion in which it is through the flesh that we love God and how the loss of flesh is such a painful loss. I think this is the issue - an existential or ontological "betrayal" but not - or, not just - as Bikinibomb suggested, turning to the side of people who have in the past persecuted Jews (though I do think that is an issue, and explains why many Jews are so offended when some Jews have Christmas trees). Slrubenstein | Talk 13:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Just a gentle reminder to use a different forum for general discussions of the subject, particularly very long ones. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 13:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

For those who would like to participate in the above discussion... talk has been moved to Talk:Christianity and Judaism. Please place your comments on that article.

As Shirahasasha notes, the above thread and discussion should perhaps move to the Christianity and Judaism talk page. Now to address the actual issue: I think we ought to favor outonyms, as Alistair suggested above. If there are a group of people who call themselves "Messianic Jews: that is how we should identify them. Moreover, I do not believe it is for us to categorize who is Jewish and who is Christian, that violates NOR. What is important is NPOV. Messianic Jews claim to be Jews. But we ought to include the views of Jews and Christians. I am certain that all other organized Jewish communities or movements reject Messianic Jews' claims to be Jewish. This does not mean we should not call them messianic Jews. it means we should note the relevant views: they consider themselves Jewish but other Jews do not. I am curious to know whether any official Church or Christian community has made any official statement about Messianic Jews. In any event, what matters are the views of Messianic Jews themselves, other jewish groups, and other Christian groups, but not us editors. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NCON#Dealing_with_self-identifying_terms concurs - autonyms are considered the only WP:NPOV name. So the only question would be are there other notable meanings for the term "Messianic Jew"? If so, then some sort of disambiguation might be needed - either a link to a disambiguation page or alternatively a direct link to an appropriate article. Egfrank (talk) 14:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

One way of sorting out whether or not there is a disambiguation need is to look at the distribution of meaning for the top 30 hits on a google search. If "Messianic Jew" is quoted, then all of the first 30 hits concern Jewish believers in Jesus. If unquoted, #27 (titled Judaic Messianism) provides resources from a university course on a variety of messianic movements within Judaism[4]. Quoted or unquoted all first 30 hits for "Messianic Judaism" concern Jewish believers in Jesus.

It would seem to me that the term "messianic Jew" is unambiguous. However, for full clarity, the article Messianic Judaism should probably have a hat note pointing to a general article covering messianic movements that have attracted Jews. Egfrank (talk) 14:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Very clearly and decisively presented answers to my question, both of you, and thanks.

My apologies for raising the question in the wrong place.

Thanks Shir for stepping in to help us be more disciplined. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Testament and Covenant are not synonymous

(the word testament is commonly confused with the word covenant<ref>Sometimes the [[New Covenant]] is referred to as the [[New Testament]], on the basis of passages such as {{bibleverse||Heb|9:16|KJV}}, in its traditional ([[KJV]]) translation. This usage reflects the [[Vulgate]], in which the word "covenant" was translated "testamentum". Biblical scholars, such as O. Palmer Robertson, have argued against this translation, however, since the word "testamentum", in [[Latin]], expresses the concept of a "last will," not an agreement between two parties sealed with a self-maledictory oath. See also [http://www.theopedia.com/Covenant Theopedia: "Covenant"] and [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=837&letter=C&search=Mosaic%20Covenant#2888 Jewish Encyclopedia: "Covenant: The Old and the New Covenant"].</ref>)

I suggest the preceeding parenthesis, after removal of the nowiki tags, be added to the article at an early and appropriate point. 75.14.220.126 (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Pendulum swings

Does anyone read anything except the introduction? hehe Anyways, I hate the current introduction. It talks about all kinda stuff and keeps getting longer and longer. The introduction should be a very quick overview of the article. It really shouldn't have references at all, as the article itself should have the references (assuming the article talks about the same thing as the introduction). We really do need a new proposal. The current ones just aren't cutting it (IMHO), and the current state of the introduction is just ugly. We need a neutral POV (not to say nonPOV) introduction that just gets to the point. There shouldn't be a discussion about types of bibles and what books are in this or that bible. These points should be covered in sections within the article. The simple point is that the make up of the bible varies depending different traditions. It shouldn't go into what those traditions. Let the article cover that. We need to make the introduction concise. --Fcsuper (talk) 05:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

How about if we cut it down to:

The word Bible refers to the sacred canonical collection of religious writings of Judaism and Christianity.[1]

The Jewish version of the Bible, the Tanakh, includes the books common to both the Christian and Jewish biblical canons.[2]

The Christian version of the Bible is often called the Holy Bible, Scriptures, or Word of God. It divides the books of the Bible into two parts: the books of the Old Testament primarily sourced from the Tanakh (with some variations), and the 27 books of the New Testament containing books originally written primarily in Greek.[3] Some versions of the Christian Bible have a separate Apocrypha section for the books not considered canonical by the publisher. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that sacred and religious seem redundant and do not add clarity, I fear that this phrasing may mislead some to think that inclusion in the Hebrew Bible requires acceptance by Christians. Of course, Jews do not care at all whether Christians agree with the Jewish canon one way or the other. There may be interesting historical reasons why Christians accept in their own Bible all books in the Hebrew Bible but that is irrelevant to the fact that the books belong in the Hebrew Bible and is best left to the body of the article for clear discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well nothing has been done to it, so I finally cut down the intro largely as I suggested it above. I took out the redundancy, but I'm not sure how to address your other concern, Rubenstein. Please edit as you see fit, though I think it's a step in the right direction. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Carl., see your talk page from Pilot ....... I'll stop by there once a night for awhile to discuss this matter of you deleating others and ( mine ) valid , concise , cited and refs. important information in the article opening at it's proper place ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 04:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's one thing to add info. by edit , it's completely another to deleat valid prior edits .......Pilotwingz (talk) 04:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Pilot, do not suggest that you were excluded from this discussion. Just because it is well referenced does not mean it is relevant for the introduction, which needs to be concise. Please work within the talk page process rather than reverting the edits which I discussed here openly. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC):::

Yes Carl , you discussed your suggestion here openly , but there wasn't much discussion at all , and certainly not a consenses among contributors to delete previous work Pilotwingz (talk) 06:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I never suggested I was excluded from the discussion ........ I was busy elsewhere ........ what I did say is that your deleating others credible , relevent and concise work that was discussed prior , is unaceptable practise and that this talk discussion that we are in now certainly did not have much of any discussion at all ......... especially not enough of one to form any consenses to deleat previous works ........... as for length of introduction , I beg to differ with you on that ......... just take a sampling of articles from Wiki. and you will find the word count in introductions varies greatly depending on broadness of the spectrum with relation to the articles topic ............ more than that , I have contested your deletions here and now , and the subject of deleating prior work by others in this articles introduction is now back on the table ........ so before you delete prior work again , you should have a consenses .......... your argument that the intro. is to long , doesn't hold water as I have explained by comparison articles on Wiki. ........... like I said , I'm here now , I was here prior , and I contest ...... and that should be sufficient reason to stand down on your deleating of others valid work , for the time being .......... Pilotwingz (talk) 06:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is a detailed discussion of covenant and testament necessary for the into to Bible? It would be good for covenant or New Testament, but it's not needed here. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

First , don't you tell me I should have stuck to the discussion and that I had every chance to have my say so then !!! ........... if that is the case , you had every chance to join the original discussions ( before your deleting others work ) which ended with no protest to my adding 4 sentences in there proper place of this articles intro. ........... also you deleted others work , the Holy Bible, Scriptures , Word of God , which are important and concise intro. elements as well ............ now in response to your question , the 4 sentences I added with my edit are anything but a detailed discussion , and the necessity of it is exactly what it says , which is self explainatory ........ I took great pains , research and considerations over quite some period of time to prepare that 4 sentence edit so it would be as professional and brief and informative as possible .......... the only reason the link to New Covenant was added as the 4th sentence , was to avoid any particular opinion about the fact that testament means covenant in relation to the Bible sections when refering to Christianity , Holy Bible .......... I gave you the dictionary link to Encarta to reference in case you had any more question of the validity on that matter , see Encarta definition #4 of testament, Judaism/ Christianity at this link , [5] ......... please leave it alone after I put it back this time , until you surmount a consenses from the contributors here .......... they were all aware of what I was intending for my edit before I made the edit , and no one contested during that time , nor did they revert or delete it ........ thanks Pilotwingz (talk) 06:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what was deleted but I agree intros should be concise with more detailed info in the article. I think the intro should have three main points:

• The Bible is in general considered to be Christian and Hebrew writings of OT + NT.
• To Jews, the Hebrew Bible is the Tanach only.
• To Jews, the Christian Bible is anything but the Tanach: NT plus maybe apocrypha, as we discussed in C/J/MJ glossary. -Bikinibomb (talk) 17:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I would keep the language stats item too, that's appropriate for an intro. -Bikinibomb (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Bikini, please look at the history of the article to see how our versions differ. Pilot's version includes 4 additional sentences discussing the words covenant and testament. My version includes the first two of your points, and I think the third is implicit but you may want something more explaining that. Also, I'm pretty sure I maintained the language stats. Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I would probably whittle it down even more by just having a barebones description like: "Bible refers to the collection of canonical religious writings of Judaism and Christianity.[1] The books that are considered canon in the Bible vary depending upon the religion or denomination that publishes it." Then have translation stats. That's it.

Then the very first section after the intro can fully discuss differences/disputes between Hebrew/Christian Bible, Old vs. New, how many books are in each, etc. That's how I'd do it. -Bikinibomb (talk) 18:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

That way you are stating up front what it is -- both Christians and Jews use the OT, but giving indication to be explained directly after that sometimes Jews don't accept the NT, Protestants don't accept apocrypha, etc. so it isn't misleading. And you aren't bogging the reader down, they can move on to the contents to find what specific info they are looking for. -Bikinibomb (talk) 18:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Jews do not use the OT Slrubenstein | Talk 19:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The actual article won't say that. I presume that Bikini was simplying his statement for the talk page, since in common parlance Christians often say Jews use the OT, though they know it isn't technically true. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

OKSlrubenstein | Talk 23:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Thus discussion of Old vs. New naming objections in the first section after intro, so everyone is clear which religion is talking about which "Bible" from the start. -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

And ......... ??? Pilotwingz (talk) 02:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Refering to the version of the intro. that was in place when I made an edit to include Testament means Covenant ( about 4 clicks back in the Bible articles history ........... compared to the present version of the intro. .......... 1st sentence , what sacred isn't important ?? ....... 6th and 7th sentences , what Torah not considered G-d's direct words ?? ... much of Jewish Law not from Torah ?? .......... 8th sentence , what not relevent , Christian Bible not often called Holy Bible, Scriptures, Word of God ?? ........... 10th - 13th sentences , what not important , Testament means Covenant ... it's only the two major section titles in the Christian Bible , no big deal , huh ??? .......... 14th - 16th sentences , what , not more understandable and clearly written than the current revised version ??? ........... Pilotwingz (talk) 01:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

And the whole thing about " the denomination that publishes it" ??? .......... someone seriously has to enlighten me on this one !!! ......... I thought publishers published Bibles ........ what denominations have their names in the publishers credits of Bibles , you know the ISBN or ISSN ?? ......... what the Reform Judaism, the Orthadox Judasim, the Methodist, the Baptist publishers ??? ........ never heard of them !!! ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 02:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

How about not , The word Bible refers to the collection of ...., but , The Bible is the collection of .... ........ am I getting too picky ?? ....... Pilotwingz (talk) 02:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It just means that Catholics use apocrypha, Protestants don't, Jews don't use NT, etc. "Publisher" is an awkward term for it though. And since all that is specified anyway I think you could ditch the "publisher" references. -Bikinibomb (talk) 02:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Right now , I ain't ditchin nothin Biki ....... I just want some people to think about it all ......... and thanks for being around Biki ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 02:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Publisher isn't just awkward , it almost completely erroneous ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 02:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Sacred" is implied by canonical and religious. That the Torah is considered God's direct words, is not necessary for the introduction to Bible. Maybe it should go somewhere in the body, but it probably shouldn't. It is better suited to Torah...we just don't need every facet of information about the Bible to go in its introduction. That it can be called 4-5 different things, also not important enough to be in the intro. And that testament means covenant, no, that does not need to be here. It is way too much for the introduction. And neither denomination nor publisher are perfect, but we do need some way of showing that different groups include different books in their canons. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah if you pare the intro down like I said then you should keep that, maybe: Bible refers to the collection of canonical religious writings of Judaism and Christianity.[1] The books that are considered canon in the Bible vary depending upon the religion or denomination that uses it. changing "publishes" to "uses." All that other stuff can be covered in the body of the article. -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Can probably drop that uses it too, either way. -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be fine with pareing [sic] it down like you suggested. And what if it read "denomination that defines it."? But dropping it all together would also be ok. Carl.bunderson (talk) 08:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

We're not done yet .......... Carl, do realise how long the edits , sacred, and Word of God, Scriptures, Holy Bible have stood in the intro. uncontested ??? ........... Do know how many editors have noticed these in the intro. while doing other work and not contested them , had no problem with them ??? .......... Slrub., I date you back to at least 05 , with much contribution since then to date , and you never seemed to have any problem with them before , and I don't think you do at present either ......... I will be reinstalling these valuable edits I am contesting Carl's deletions of in the near future , but not just yet ......... Pilotwingz (talk) 05:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Pilotwingz, please respect us enough to explain your points clearly. I have no idea what this - "6th and 7th sentences , what Torah not considered G-d's direct words ?? ... much of Jewish Law not from Torah ??" '- is refering to, or what your point is. By the way, I have no idea what the above sentence (How about not) means. Also, if you do not know what Reform Judaism and Orthodox Judaism are, just follow the links, we have articles on them. Finally, you have NO right to tell me what I believe. What on earth do you mean "and I don't think you do at present either?" I make my "thoughts" very clear through my comments on this talk page, and my edits. You have no right to speculate about what I "think." Respond to my actual edits, or don't make claims about what I "think" at all. Moreover, If I make a good faith edit that I believe improves the article, you need to assume good faith on my part. Just because I did not make the edit five years ago, or three years ago, or a month ago, or yesterday, does not mean I have no right to make the edit today. If the edit is an improvement, then it stands. I made one edit recently and it is both more accurate and clearer English prose. How dare you tell me I am not allowed to make that edit because I had my chance in 2005 and if I did not make the edit then, I have lost the right to edit Wikipedia articles? (or should I wrote "???" as if this does anything other than waste space, disrespect other editors who apparently do not know what a single question mark means and need three question marks to communicate that a question is being asked ... and make me look foolish) Slrubenstein | Talk 06:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Slrub., my words and the way I spoke them are perfectly clear relating to the differences between the sentences in the prior version of the intro. and current version with the deletions I am contesting ......... just how many items have I been talking about here ?? ..... there is sacred with relation to Torah, there is Holy Bible, Scriptures, Word of God with relation to Christian Bible, there is covenant with relation to testament .......... what ?? not important??? ........ I supposed you could have understood it the first time clearly , and the second , and the third ............. and yes I have some limited knowledge of Reform and Orthodox Judaism from years of reading and self study , and my point with relation to my mention of them was I don't believe they are publishers of Bibles, or did you miss that too ?? ........... further Slrub., I didn't tell you what you believe , I said I don't believe you are in objection to the items I am contesting ( or at least the ones you never objected to prior ) ........ more than that , you have yet to even say here that you are in objection to those items , if you are then make the clear statement , I object to having the items ( list them ) in the intro , speake clear man .......... as for a response to rest of your reponse , you assume too much because none of that is what was said or insinuated , I say what I mean and never play word games , I'm from the old school of straight foreward speak .......... Pilotwingz (talk) 06:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because its been there a long time doesn't mean its good. There doesn't seem to be a strong movement to reinstate all the redundancy, Pilot. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

My point is that there has never been any objection or contest to the items I am concerned with since their origination , and more so these items have been viewed by multiple hundreds of editors since their originations and I call all those historical editors as reference to acceptence of long standing components of the intro. .......... if there are two or three here who object to these items being in the intro. , I don't see that as sufficient to the fact of the hundreds who never contested or objected prior .......... plus my own objection to you deleting well sourced and referenced material I added ..... that seems to be more like vandleism the way I read Wiki. guidelines and policy ......... you need a mighty powerful reason to delete anothers well cited work , or maybe you don't ........... Pilotwingz (talk) 07:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyway Carl, the items I have mentioned I have concern with the deletions of are not redundant in any way , they are fully distinct and brief materials that should be replaced in the intro. ........ also , you are assuming that a reader will understand that canonical and religious mean sacred ....... I am certain to you or I , we could infer sacred frpm those words , but what about someone who may not ?? .......... Pilotwingz (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Pilotwingz, I want to assume good faith but you have to do the same. You appear not to respect me or care to have any dialogue because you are not responding to wnything I wrote. Let me specify it for you:

(1) ".......... what ?? not important??? ........ " is not a grammatical sentence, I do not know what you are trying to say, if you continue to speak in this ungrammatical, unclear way, do not blame me when I just start ignoring you. I am asking you to epxlain what you mean. If you do, I will now you want me to understand you. If you do not, I will know you do not want me to understand you.

(2)"I don't believe they are publishers of Bibles" Well, your belief is wrong. Orthodoxy publishes the Artscroll Bible. The Reform movement certainly publishes its own Torah, although I am not sure about the entire Bible. But anyway, what is the relevance? I went over the current and previous version and see no reference, in eithe Carl's or your version, to Reform or Orthodox Jews publishing their own Bibles. So it is unclear to me what you are referring to. And it is therefore unclear to me what you are trying to say.

(3) Your version states: "The Torah is traditionally considered by believers to be God's direct words and thus thought to be the most sacred part. Much of the Jewish religious law is derived from the Torah." This is a distortion of Judaism, and you have no right to push your own POV about Judaism on the article. Parts of the Torah say "God said," so obviously other parts were not said by God. Moreover, Jewish theologians have debated the nature of revelation. Also, when Jews claim that their law - and please do not say religious law, Jews do not distinguish between religious and non-religious law - is derived from Torah they are referring to the oral Torah not just the Written Torah; this is an important distinction that is made later in the article and should not be distorted in the introduction.

(4) Jews do not believe that the Torah, if you mean the Written Torah, is the most sacred part. Some sages even stated that Song of Songs, in the K'tuvim (not Torah) is the most sacred book. And the Oral Torah (emobodied in the Talmud) is as sacred as the Written Torah (five books of Moses).

(5) "speake clear man" doesn't make any sense, neither does "I from the old school of straight foreward speak." If you are not a native English speaker can you please ask someone to go over what you write so that it is in clear English? Otherwise it is very hard to follow what it is you want.

(6) Do you want to know what I think? I think the current version of the introduction is written in clear, well-written, grammatical English and it introduces the article in a straighforward way. I think your version is poorly written and confusing, and introduces terms that are unnecessary and would need explanation that would make the introduction overwrought Slrubenstein | Talk 07:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The people who don't speak up, obviously don't care much about it. You can't use an argument of silent majority to form your so-called consensus. The people who bother to discuss seem to be fine with an intro based on my version, or even further pared down (eg Bikini). And just because it is well sourced doesn't mean it's important. Notability is just as important as verifiability. I simply cut out what is non-notable for the intro to an article as broad as this. And I will thank you for spelling vandalism correctly, or even better not using it when it is inapt. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC):::

You seemed to have understood my misspelling just fine Carl , and my use of it is not inapt. .......... Pilotwingz (talk) 07:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I understood it just fine. But you should be aware that your poor grammar, syntax and spelling make you look like an idiot. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Good one Carl !!! ....... my grammer and syntax for conversation purposes is usually basic common folk style , and not demanding that my conversation partner excell to the upper echelons of PhD speak ......... my spelling is not perfect , of that I am aware , which is why I am constantly fixing my own spelling errors after the fact ( for others benefit ), and you should be grateful I try as hard as I do , that my Encarta dictionary is always just one click away ( I use it constantly ) ...... here , I will spell vandalism correctly for you , and now you might like you to thank me for that like you said you would ......... as for your constructive comment suggesting " I look like an idiot , you are intitled to your opinion , but that brings to mind something I heard from a great debator once , he said ( paraphrase )= " show me a debator that finds it nessasary to lower theirself to derogatory personal attacks and put downs , and I will show you a debator who is losing the debate ........ more than that, my Lord Jesus is wiser than you in that He says strongly you should not call people idiots ( Raca ) or a fool , for in doing so you call judgement down upon yourself ( Matt. 5 : 22 ) ......... and besides that , it's not a nice thing to do !!! ....... thank you , Pilotwingz (talk) 16:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yea fine Slrub. I fixed my little typo from I to I'm , but you knew , it was just a typo ......... as for the Reform and Orthodox denomination publishers of Torah or your Bible , I would appreciate if you could give me references that show them as credited in the publishers section for catologing , I don't believe you'll find Methodist , Baptist , Episcople , etc. in those catologing references for Christian Bibles ........... Pilotwingz (talk) 07:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"I fixed my little typo from I to I'm" -Once again you show disrespect to me by ignoring what I wrote and instead raising some other topic I never mentioned. Where in my post above did I refer to any typo of "I?" To answer your question: for Reform, see The Torah: a Modern Commentary, ISBN 0-8074-0055-6, for Orthodox go to Artscroll. But did you not read what I wrote? I do not see what this (Reform and Orthodox publications) have to do with the article. Also, can you please stop with the ten periods after each sentence? Proper English is to end a sentence with one (just one, the number greater than zero but less than two) period (one may use an elipsis of three periods to represent the part of a sentence that is left out of a quotation; one may use an elipsis of four periods to represent a sentence that is left out of a quotation of several sentences. But what is it with all of these ten-period strings?) Slrubenstein | Talk 07:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

cf any NJB or NAB is obviously a Catholic Bible; and I have a RSV-Catholic Edition, published by Ignatius press. Try and tell me that's not a Catholic bible. Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

OK , Catholic may or may not have their name listed as publisher , you tell me ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 07:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Carl I disagree with " the people who don't speak up obviously don't care much about it " that you mentioned ......... I believe it more accurate say because they don't speak up against it or edit it out , that they are in fact saying they are in agreement with what was written in the intro . ....... Pilotwingz (talk) 08:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I changed it, no one but you has bothered to complain about it, except for you. So using your own logic, they are in agreement with what is written in the intro. The fact that your logic can be used by either one of us demonstrates my point: by and large they are apathetic. The fact that they don't comment on it, is demonstrative of their indifference. If they cared, they would be here supporting you. And how many of the editors whom you contacted on their talk pages have responded? Let's see, one. And he [given that I am on the right and you the left] is even to the right of me. Further demonstrating that the editors are perfectly fine with the current version. Carl.bunderson (talk) 08:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC):::

I'm hoping you are wrong about them not caring this way or that Carl .......... what is important to me is that they do care , not that they agree with me ............ at present I stand alone here and against odds with only Biki adding new input ......... time is still on my side , and I believe in rules and policy ....... thanks , ... Pilotwingz (talk) 08:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

When I am conversing with written words , I use the periods as breaks and breaths in my speech , it's usaually not a concern for most , it also let's someone who likes to be criticle about others show their face .......... then there are also those who like to write with mile long run on sentences , but I struggle through those types of conversation and do my best , Slrub., I just figure they are more educated and intellegent than I ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 08:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

One other thing before I stop for this eve., Slrub., you keep saying my version of the intro. , but that's incorrect you know ?? ........... I added by edit 4 sentences relating to testament means covenant , the rest of the intro. was already there at that time ......... yet I do have objections as to the deletion of certain other important components as previously stated .......... 08:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Slrub., is the " Union of American Hebrew Congregations , NY. " , the authoritive voice for the Reform Judaism denomination ?? ........ Is Union of American Hebrew Congregations the synonym of or another name for Reform Judaism ?? ....... thanks , .. Pilotwingz (talk) 08:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Concerning your point about ten periods in a row: I do not like to criticize, but I do like to understand what I am reading. Don´t you want to be understood? If so, you ought to follow basic rules of English grammar and usage while writing on English Wikipedia. As to your question about the UAHC, yes, in North America it is. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well , I could say that out of all the written conversation I have had and do have with others , that there is the occassional one in a thousand that have objection to my style and seem to have some difficulty understanding what I mean ........ and for those I make extra effort to be as clear as I am able , once I am aware of their concerns .......... but they like yourself are so rare , it just never seemed reasonable to me to altar my style of communication prose consistantly and permenantly ......... Now back to the issue of denominations who publish Bibles , in order for the article to state it that way as it does in the intro. , you will need to prove that with qualifiable references , that " denominations publish Bibles , I don't think they do ......... I think publishers , publish Bibles and different denominations use and accept various published versions of Bibles ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 17:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Canon

I think the word 'canon', as used in the introduction, should be defined or linked to Wiktionary or something. Being a key word in the intro of a basic subject like this, readers will need to easily access a definition if they are to get the best out of the article and I don't think the average reader neccesarily understands it properly. Even if they have some idea that it means 'accepted', it would be better if they were guided to the idea that the list of 'canon' books was officially settled by certain people at a point in time and perhaps that not everyone's idea of 'canon' is the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IceDragon64 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

"Canonical" is wikilinked in the previous sentence to Biblical canon. That should be sufficient, unless you think the link should be switched to where it actually says "canon" rather than canonical. Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Redirect - Catholic Bible

On New Page Patrol earlier today, I intercepted a poorly written article titled Catholic Bible. Since the article did not add anything that is not already covered here, I redirected it here. --Blanchardb-^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}-timed 22:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Bible on a pinhead

I know that Trivia sections are discouraged in Wikipedia, but perhaps this recent invention can be incorporated somewhere in the Bible article: Bible put on a pinhead-size chip . Thanks. MP ^{(talk•contribs)} 13:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)