Talk:Property is theft!

Property vs. real estate property

What is not immediately clear when reading this article is that the term "property" is used here to mean real estate, or land, property, and not (I believe) any other kind of property (like stocks, a business, a car, or an apple or pencil for that matter). I suggest that this be made clear from the outset.

--Serge 01:31, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This is how Marx used "property." Proudhon (at least in What is Property?) considered the legal concept of property as it existed in France as derived from Roman law. This is very specifically stated in chapter 2. —Jemmy_tc 17:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Justification for inclusion of libertarian socialism in links section

Proudhon believed in the control of the means of production by the workers themselves, and as a believer in the labour theory of value opposed profit-making enterprises. He believed that society should be organised as a federation of workers assemblies. True, he believed that goods should be exchanged in a market, but this market would have little in common with the capitalist idea of the free market (for example, goods were to be exchanged at "cost value", not whatever price would create the greatest profit). Workers self-management and the idea of a society organised as a federation of workers' organisations is of course key to most conceptions of libertarian socialism. No-one would suggest that Proudhon was a libertarian socialist exactly, but it seems perfectly reasonable to include a link to libertarian socialism. I haven't restored the link to communism, but a case certainly could be made. Proudhon had a significant influence on Marx's early writings. Cadr 00:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Request for clarification

Is the sentence, "The former is considered illegitimate property, the latter legitimate property.", which occurs somewhere around the middle of the longest paragraph, mistyped? --Denihilonihil 13:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

No, it's right. Property is theft if it's that which isn't the result of labor. Property is freedom when it the product of labor. If you protect unused land from others, you're stealing that land. If you protect your cornfield from others, it's freedom. For Proudhon, legitimate property can only come about through labor. RJII 19:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Absurd notion

There has to be some kind of documented response to this absurd premise:

He proposed that "the laborer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right of property in the thing which he has produced."

So when someone provides the capital to buy the equipment to run a diamond mine and pay wages to the miners, when a miner finds a diamond, the miner retains "a natural right of property in the diamond which he has produced"? And when that miner takes his rough diamond to a cutter, whom he pays a wage to cut the diamond, the cutter owns the resulting cut diamonds he produces? And when the cutter pays a jeweler to mount one of the cut diamonds in a gold ring, the resulting diamond ring produced by the jeweler belongs to the jeweler? In a system that worked according to this principle, why would anyone be motivated to do anything except steal? --Serge 21:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

So the diamond miner is supposed to be more motivated when he doesn't get the diamond? Hmmmm. —Jemmy_tc 17:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Serge's comment does not indicate that. Your rebuttal doesn't address the issue he raises which is that if it is the case that "the laborer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right of property in the thing which he has produced" then it is the case that multiple individuals could own the same property simultaneously. But more importantly he is suggesting that a rebuttal to the concept probably exists and should be provided for the article to be balanced. 216.36.186.2 (talk) 19:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Proudhon was referring to a right more akin to copyright than to physical possession.--Cwiddofer (talk) 03:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Contradictory quotes

These two quotes are completely contradictory:

He proposed that "the laborer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right of property in the thing which he has produced."

"Property [is] a triumph of Liberty. For it is born of Liberty ... Property is the only power that can act as a counterweight to the State, because it shows no reverence for princes, rebels against society and is, in short, anarchist."

Further explanation/clarification is needed. --Serge 22:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Proudhon's philosophy of property was developed in a number of works and it is contradictory since he changed his views. -- Vision Thing -- 08:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

He did not coined the slogan

"Property is theft !" is a slogan which is coined much sooner than Proudhon's book. It is first used by Brissot. Direct quote from Marx : "But as Proudhon entangled the whole of these economic relations in the general legal concept of “property,” “la propriété,” he could not get beyond the answer which, in a similar work published before 1789, Brissot had already given in the same words: “La propriété’ c’est le vol.”

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/letters/65_01_24.htm

According to Robert Graham, "The claim that Proudhon took this phrase from the Girondin, J.P. Brissot de Warville, repeated by Marx after his break with Proudhon, has been decisively refuted by Robert L. Hoffman in his study, Revolutionary Justice: The Social and Political Theory of P.J. Proudhon (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1972), pp. 46-48." Anyway, I added mention of Brissot. —Jemmy_tc 17:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism Section

This section has been removed, but I'll leave the discussion. Myself, I would think that in order to be notable any criticism would have to come from, or represent, political thought of the same stature (within the history of political philosophy) as Proudhon's; e.g., Marx, Bentham, Burke, Jefferson. I know, at least, that Marx criticized Proudhon extensively; but I do not know the content of this criticism very well. —Jemmy_tc 18:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the following:

This is based on a misunderstanding of Proudhon's argument. Proudhon differentiated between "ownership" and "property". According to his terminology, a person has "ownership" of something if they use it on a daily basis. For example, a student owns his pencil. A thing is the "property" of a person if they own it on paper, and derive profit from someone else using it. If the student had borrowed the pencil from his school for a fee, it would be the "property" of his school.

There is no misunderstanding involved. It is a fallacy as it sits. He may have been doing a play on words for rhetorical effect but the words still have meaning. If the student stole the pencil from the school he would be using it, but that could not convey rightful ownership. Steve 21:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the attempt at a compromise, but it doesn't matter that someone (and I'm not sure it was Proudhon) used the word "property" or "ownership" as a valid right and the other as "theft" - the word theft isn't a valid word unless the words "property" and "ownership" are valid. That is the nature of a stolen concept. Steve 03:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

There are several reasons why that paragraph is wrong:

• The criticism section is for criticism of the articles main points - It should not be turned into a series of arguments against arguments
• I kept the body of your argument's statement - a good faith compromise.
• Saying the criticism is a 'misunderstanding' is your interpretation which if entered would be origonal research.
• Material must have a source - a source was supplied for the criticism and without a source for any 'counter-criticism,' it would be personal POV.

Steve 20:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the non-NPOV from the wording so that it's now a claim of contradiction and added the obvious logical rules showing why stolen concept simply doesn't logically work here. A non-neutral point of view, even with an outside source, is not appropriate. If you want to make it non-neutral by removing the references to the claim rather than as a fact (which they aren't since they are full of logical problems, which are demonstrated in the claim), then I'll simply delete it in the future. If you want to claim that a response of clarification to the non-neutral critique is not valid for not being sourced, then you fail under not being neutral. I'd rather just delete the inanity, but I'd rather give you a chance to respond to the actual reasoning for keeping your illogical contribution in the talk page or even in the actual article. Freedom of objectivist religion, I say. -- SAW

Your personal POV is rather obvious. I've reverted your nonsensical attempt to censor a valid, sourced criticism. Steve 14:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Nothing was removed -- only added text that neutralized the criticism. Since the criticism is illogical, it only makes logical sense to refer to it neutrally, not as if it were a true fact. No other articles say 2+2=5 is an accepted fact. I can only expect you to understand when you take some courses or read some books on logic. -- SAW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.193.114.134 (talk) 16:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Steve, feel free to quote somebody arguing against the distinction between possessional ownership and property using facts, but an a priori argument regarding synthetic distinctions with mutually exclusive definitions falls flat on its face. There are much more famous criticisms, like Rousseau's inevitability argument. I _thought_ Objectivists were supposed to like basic logic. In Proudhon's time, many felt that property itself wasn't linked to ownership, since paper-properties were previously limited only to royalty and the lords, much as patents continue to this day. You have to understand the language in the context that Proudhon lived and wrote in, not in the age of capitalism, where property by title is the norm. Rousseau, if you don't remember, argued that the concept of property was theft from the commons, but he also embraced the idea that theft of the commons was for the progressive benefit of humanity, whether it (property as a solution to "the tragedy of the commons" as Hardin puts it) made sense or not. -- SAW —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.193.114.134 (talk) 00:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Feel free to find a source to cite - but WP doesn't allow original research. Steve 04:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"Objectivist critique"

The Branden complaint seems to center around a too-literal reading of the slogan, whereas the rest of Proudhon's argument seems to make the meaning clear. Surely there are other critiques that are more relevant to the substance of the argument. An anarchist one would be most relevant; I suggest that one be included. —vivacissamamente 12:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing this. It's entirely inappropriate to have an "Objectivist" POV on this page. —Jemmy_tc 01:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I've restored the section, which was wrongly removed. It isn't POV, but a valid critical observation that is properly referenced. --Steve (talk) 19:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, this is lame. Surely we can come up with better complaints than this. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 15:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I've put your rebuttal under it's own heading of "Counter-Criticism." But maybe "Rebuttal" would make a better section title... Or maybe a subheading under "Criticism" would be better than a separate, following section? But it does make sense to give a degree of separatation. --Steve (talk) 05:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The ideal degree of separation might be to separate them both from the page entirely. Maybe we could move them onto a page about this "stolen concept" business. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 15:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Just because someone wrote something about the phrase doesn't mean it's appropriate in this article. This "criticism" is embarrassingly stupid -- as the quotation in the introduction of the article shows, Proudhon does not mean that property is the same thing as theft, any more than that slavery is the same thing as murder. A society in which the right of property is absolute is a society in which the vast majority of people will have no property -- thus, for the masses, property amounts to dispossession, or theft. The contradiction in the phrasing is wholly intentional, a literary effect. A more literal phrasing would be "the right of property exists only on paper" but that doesn't sound nearly as good, does it? The author of the criticism fails to understand this, and merely attacks a straw man.

But that is not the reason I removed it. Note two things: first, this is an article about a phrase; the purpose of such an article, in keeping with the fact that this is an encyclopedia, is to explain its meaning and document its locus classicus. Criticism of Proudhon's arguments belong in the article on Proudhon's work, What is Property?. Second, this particular criticism, besides its stupidity, is far from notable -- it is just a couple paragraphs from one article by some random nobody in a rather insignificant journal. Marx criticized Proudhon extensively -- he devoted a whole book to it -- that is notable. To include only this criticism, which comes centuries after the fact (in a time when the sovereign right of property is no longer taken seriously by any acting government) is completely out of proportion. But even Marx's criticism does not belong on this page: it has nothing to do with the phrase. The phrase is different from the argument. —Jemmy_tc 09:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not remove valid, relevant, sourced material.

The only "embarrassingly stupid" thing I'm aware of is the ill-mannered fashion in which you delete relevant, sourced information to suit your personal POV while engaging in ad hominum attacks.

It is in the criticism section and it is dead-on relevant, all of the blathering on about literary illusions to the contrary. Of course the 'contradiction' is wholly intentional - that does not invalidate the fact that it can also be shown to be a form of self-defeating fallacy.

You said that this is an article about a phrase - the criticism is about the phrase - because something is a phrase doesn't remove it from the realm of meaning. "The phrase is different from the argument" argues the person who bases his argument on other arguments in the same article which discusses an argument characterized by the phrase which argues for a specific view of property.

If you want to INSIST that this is just a historical location of the phrase - fine with me, we can edit out everything in the article that even hints at political POV of any kind and make it a truly dry tract with no meat or juice to it at all. Trying to have your cake and eat it too (that's just a phrase) results in POV. If you want an article that gives a solid representation of what Proudhon meant, you also have to have the fortitude to endure the proper criticism - Please note that there is NO criticism of Proudhon or his theories - just the phrase - the criticism is in scope.

I have restored what is a valid entry for this article. Unless Wikipedia has changed since I was last here, this is NOT your personal property and is NOT here to reflect your personal point of view. It is as an encyclopedia article which warrants that criticism section.--Steve (talk) 17:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The article does not reflect any point of view wrt Proudhon. I didn't come here to add my point of view: I came here because I spent an afternoon reading What is Property? and wanted to clean up the article, which seemed to me to have been written by people who had not in fact read the book. The article merely explains the popular origin of the phrase and some the context in that origin. Without the criticism section, the page is high quality, and encylopedic. With the criticism section, it is an embarrassment. I don't want to get into an argument about the criticism itself -- I'm sorry I even discussed it before -- but the section is just so silly and out of place here. I don't understand why you can't see that. You're clearly putting it here because you want to have a critical "objectivist" view, but no such view is of any importance here. The very fact that it is an "objectivist critique" of Proudhon makes it inappropriate, because "objectivism" is not part of the same history of thought. Even Proudhon's views are unimportant in themselves -- the legal theory he was criticizing is no longer important, it is purely historical. Please can you just try and get some perspective? Your little religion or whatever you call it just doesn't belong on every page in an encyclopedia.

I can't believe you're going to tell me that this article is not here to reflect my personal point of view. Maybe you should read about psychological projection. I'm not trying to advance any point of view (and I haven't even made my views known): I'm trying to write high quality encyclopedia articles. Meanwhile, it's perfectly obvious what you're doing here.

In any case, you keep adding a section even though it doesn't have consensus. (And it is unlikely it will ever have consensus, because it really does not belong.) That is against WP policy. It is edit warring, and it is disruptive. Please stop. I don't want to deal with this edit war bullshit. It's demoralizing. It makes me not want to edit WP at all. Sigh. —Jemmy_tc 21:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

• The material is sourced to an article that isn't even about property or politics at all, but is aimed at "anti-rationalists". The "property is theft" thing occupies a couple of lines, and it is just an aside. This does not count as an "objectivist critique". If someone wants to provide a counterpoint, they can find something that is more than a couple of lines in some random article somewhere. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The article is about a kind of logical fallacy - it not only applies to the phrase that this article is about - but this phrase is specifically used as an example of that kind of logical error. It is NOT an aside - the fallacy discussed IS what the sourced material is about. As to "Objectivist critique" you mention, that is what someone here on this talk page put up for a heading of this talk section - it wasn't me. I don't see this as an Objectivism issue, or an Anarchy issue, or a Socialist issue - it is about a criticism of the phrase as a phrase. Please do not remove valid, relevant, sourced material - to do so is in direct violation of Wikipedia policy. --Steve (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The phrase is only an example of the fallacy if taken literally - but that's fine in the context of the article cited, because it's just a prelminary example before getting to the main point, which is directed against a perceived trend towards relativism, anti-rationalism, and mysticism in the philosophy of its time and place. It has absolutely nothing to say about property rights or any sort of politics at all. (Have you read the article?) You can quote Wikipedia policy all you like, but even "valid, relevant, sourced material" should be given weight in proportion to its importance to the topic. Of the things that could be said as a counterpoint, this is far, far down on the list. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(For reference we are talking about this article.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand that the referenced article is addressing a logical fallacy (yes, I've read the article) and I know it is not about property except as so far as it deals with two concepts and their relationship: Property and theft. The thrust of the article is on epistemological issues. But it is dead on target with this phrase and uses it as an example. The article is about a phrase - the criticism says this exact phase is a like a contradiction in terms - what could be more on-target, proportional, appropriate, or relevant?

I'm also aware of some good sources critical of Proudhon's property rights positions but to bring in them in makes for a major criticism section - a much larger critical section. This often stirs up a lot of partisan editing which I'd like to avoid. Also it becomes difficult to judge when the exposition of different positions critical of Proudhon should be cut off. After all this article is about a phrase. If it stays mostly about the phrase, rather than a fuller exposition of Proudhon's political positions, this criticism is adequate - it addresses the logical contradiction of the phrase - the counter states that it was not intended to be taken literally. That is a good and balanced approach.

Any article that hangs on a context as short as this phrase has to be open to criticism of the phrase's logical meaning - or open the flood-gates to a much larger scope of criticism. The only alternative to those two positions would be to strip the article down to a very tiny, dry historical accounting of what was said by whom and when - with out any fleshing out of the positions or meaning behind them. If the criticism is left in place, as it has been for quite a while until recently, it is adequate to make people think about literal versus metaphorical and more actively engage the rest of the article with an additional perspective.

Given these points I think you can see that I've thought about and addressed what is the proper weight or proportion for a critical section. And the reason I persist in mentioning the policies of Wikipedia is because people ARE violating them in deleting valid, proportional, relevant, sourced material. --Steve (talk) 18:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I cannot, with my Wikipedia-policy-violating eye, see the point of separating the two. It would be a very artificial division, if it were done that way - and it hasn't, because a lot of what is written in this article already is not really about the phrase proper. It would be a bit strange to allow such things in the article and then say we cannot include criticism of them because the article is "only about the phrase". So yes, I am more than happy to open the flood gates. I have already proposed a merger. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 21:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I have again restored the material thatJemmy keeps deleting. His last deletion was not mentioned here on the Talk page yet in the Edit summary of his deletion he accuses me of not explaining MY actions on the talk page. I am not the one behaving in a disruptive fashion. One can go back into the history of this article and see mentions of the logical contradiction inherent in the phrase (I saw this as far back as April 2006 which is as far as I looked). There have been many editors over the years who have written to that effect -pointing out this obvious fact. The criticism section was established and arrived at over 7 months ago under a concensus. Jeremy acts as if this page were his private property, deletes valid, relevant, proportional, sourced material which has a history of concensus. He then accuses me of being disruptional for restoring it. --Steve (talk) 08:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

What is Consensus? Consensus is Tyrrany! As to the previous mentions you refer to, it looks like it briefly talks about a literal contradiction. It did not talk about objectivism, stolen concepts, or quote an objectivist newletter article on epistemology. After all, it is, as you say, obvious! Nathaniel Branden wasn't the first or most important to notice it, by a long shot. As I say, Proudhon already noticed it, and embraced it! Why should objectivism come into it at all?

So, is it finally settled? Can we go for a brief mention like was there before? For reference, I assume the April 2006 version Steve is talking about is this. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

My mention of concensus was in reply to Jeremy's complaints. The criticism isn't about Objectivism, it discusses the phrase containing a specific kind logical fallacy. Why would anyone be so upset at this being pointed out? Agreement is dissent! Wisdom is foolishness!

So, is it finally settled? Can we assume that valid, relevant, proportional, sourced material will be respected? --Steve (talk) 16:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as a matter of fact, I promise that all future removals of "valid, relevant, proportional, sourced" material will be done respectfully. :-) Cheers, --EmbraceParadox (talk) 17:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Whatever differences of opinion, editorial, political, or otherwise - it is so much nicer to work with someone with a sense of humor :-) Cheers, --Steve (talk) 06:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again Jemmy has deleted the criticism section along with the reference. In the edit summary, he accuses me of disruptive behavior and threatend to initiate Administrative actions against me. I welcome any chance to bring impartial third party expertise to this issue. I have not been disruptive. The section in question was put in the article long ago as part of a consensus. It is a valid, proportional, appropriate entry for the article and has referenced source material. The value and purpose of the section for an encyclopedia article of this kind has been made clear on this page. The constant removal is the disruption. The attacks on me are unwarranted. This is the second time in a row that Jemmy has done this without even a brief note on this discussion page. I invite anyone to look at WP:DISRUPT and see whose actions best fit Wikipedia's policy. --Steve (talk) 05:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Greetings, editors. Using a large pull-quote from a figure not significant in the area is rather undue weight for such a short article, but Branden is a notable thinker, the material is reliably sourced, and I believe is of interest to our readers who might immediately dismiss the phrase as logically contradicting. I do hope we can set aside this dispute and agree on a version similar to the current one. Regards, Skomorokh 14:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Karl Marx is much more notable, and the material cited now is more substantial and relevant, being entirely about Proudhon and not a few lines in an article about something else, and also timely, being written in the same period, not merely pointing out the obvious a century after the fact. So why do we need the Branden quote at all? (The "rebuttal" is also now invalid, but we'll get to that later in the unlikely event this version is not reverted.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 17:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course Marx is more relevant, but that does not justify removing Branden; Branden's critique is more explicit and gives the reader a better idea of Proudhon's supposedly fallacious reasoning. The notion that the phrase is formally suspect is likely to occur to readers of the article, who will want properly sourced analysis from notable figures. Regards, Skomorokh 19:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it? I mean "theft, as a forcible violation of property, presupposes the existence of property." This is clear. Supposing a hypothetical person who did not find this clear, does explaining the logical and genetic interdependency of concepts acutally clarify anything? No, of course it doesn't, and obviously it was never supposed to. Instead, the example of "property is theft" was supposed to clarify this philosophical assertion, not the other way around! --EmbraceParadox (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's follow Steve's lede and continue this discussion in the Literal Contradiction Section discussion below. Skomorokh 19:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merger

Please see Talk:What Is Property?

Table of contents

Is there any way we can get rid of this? Right now, it looks absurd: the TOC follows the majority of the content. I added a section heading, "Background", after the first two paragraphs -- just to move the TOC up, where it makes more sense to be. Someone removed it. Fine by me, it was just a hack. But there has to be some way to get rid of the TOC? Anyone? —Jemmy_tc 21:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The magic incantation is __NOTOC__ --EmbraceParadox (talk) 14:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Literal contradiction section

The material from Marx fits the section well. I restored the material from Branden since it gives added authority and a kind of balance. And because it is valid, appropriate, sourced material that should not have been removed. There is no requirement that a criticism be from the same historical period, particularly when it refers to the logical soundness of the phrase. Nor is the Marx quote any more relevant - both are references to the exact same phrase. I shifted to this new Talk page section since it is now clear that the criticism is about the phrase and not "Objectivist Critique". --Steve (talk) 18:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Marx is a great addition to the section, that this does not excuse removing the relevant reliably sourced material from Branden, a notable individual, and that being from a different historical period does not mean a source does not have anything relevant to add to the discussion (although contemporary responses ought to be treated differently). I've reworked the section to avoid undue weight and to condense things a little. Skomorokh 19:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That Branden is "a notable individual" is relevant to whether there should be an article about him, not whether every idiotic statement he makes deserves a place on the corresponding WP page. His statement about Proudhon is far from notable (indeed, it is laughable). The article remains an embarrassment. The presence of this material is so artificial! The sentence on Marx has nothing to do with this phrase, and fails to communicate any of Marx's critique; moreover, Marx's critique of Proudhon has nothing to do with any "literal contradiction" in the phrase, contrary to the heading of the section under which it is placed; with the Proudhon quotations removed it is much less clear what Proudhon was talking about; the majority of the article is now padding that has been put in to make the reference to objectivism seem less unreasonable, not to make the article better. This article should not be a vehicle for a link to objectivism! —Jemmy_tc 06:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

It is completely insane (WP:AGF), completely detached from any good faith reasonable attempt to write the best encyclopedia article possible, to have an entire section in this article -- in fact, a majority of the article -- dedicated to the trivial point, that "property is theft" is a "literal contradiction" when the word "property" is interpreted wrongly. —Jemmy_tc 06:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I've added something of an explanation from a reliable source sympathetic to Proudhon, to balance out the critiques. Skomorokh 19:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the following sentence from the end of the section because is isn't an accurate statement of Branden's position:

The property that is theft is private property, whereas the pre-existing concept of property that allows Proudhon to use the concept of "theft" is not the same property, as in Branden's example, but people's natural inheritance.

I also believe that the preceding sentence should be reworked or dropped - it isn't clear how this changes the observation of the phrase made by Marx and Branden. But I left it there in case someone believes it can be salvaged. --Steve (talk) 20:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it not ironic how the "objectivists" are here so incapable of objectivity with respect to the quality of encyclopedia-writing? What percentage of humans are capable of recognizing their own biases and the motivations for their behavior? "Objectivism" with its detached-from-reality theory of man as rational (and Objectivism as following directly from pure reason -- "A is A", therefore capitalism is good for you -- my god! It is like reading Descartes!) pretty much forbids from the beginning any psychological insight or self-awareness of cognitive bias on the part of its followers -- as if it weren't difficult enough already! It's so hopeless. —Jemmy_tc 06:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the "snarky" paragraph (his description) that Jemmy added. It is personal POV, unsourced, orig. research, inappropriate in the criticism section, much less as lead paragraph, and falls short of being encyclopedia-writing.

His comments on this talk page make his POV clear. He says, "The sentence on Marx has nothing to do with this phrase" - are we both speaking English? He says that the interpetation of the word "property" matters - Duh! That is what the criticism by Marx and Branden go directly to - the quaint notion that there be some common meaning attached to a symbol if it is intended to communicate. Their point is that interpetation must be within bounds and that this phrase isn't. --Steve

I've been accused of not editing in good faith and being disruptive (when I'm the one working with others for a consensus), pushing a personal pov (when I'm the one comfortable with Branden and Marx nestled side-by-side), and in general, violating many WP policies when the facts are just the opposite.

Does it seem peculiar to anyone else that he accuses me or Objectivists or Objectivism of various shortcomings in these ad hominum attacks where he uses words like "idiotic" and "insane"? Jemmy makes as if he could peer into my mind and divine my thoughts and motives. He rants about bias, and implies I'm incapable of recognizing my motives. Jemmy, maybe no one told you, but I'm a psychologist, and I make it a point not to apply the knowledge and skills I've acquired over decades in that area to "psychologizing" others, especially not in demeaning fashion you are attempting. Please look to your own characteristics - you clearly have no understanding of mine! --Steve (talk) 09:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

That is not actually their point -- it is certainly not Branden's point. The idea of the "stolen concept" has nothing to do with the interpretation of text: it supposes that there is a concept used (not a symbol) which is at the same time contradicted by an assertion. The idea that "property" should have a "common meaning" in the work of Proudhon is ridiculous if you have read it, because Proudhon lists dozens of different concepts of property from various authors and considers them independently; and also because in context, which you only know about if you read the text he says that, in the section where he says "property is theft" he is talking about Roman law's concept of the sovereign right of property. In some contexts, "property" can mean a physical entity (my computer is property in this sense). In Proudhon's context, "property" cannot mean this: this computer is not property, because this computer is not property law -- and Proudhon was talking about property law -- not even all property law, but one specific form, that which derives from a theory of sovereign rights. —Jemmy_tc 10:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The criticism really is stupid when you take this into account (i.e., when you read the book), isn't it? Because the idea of the stolen concept clearly does not apply: the word "theft" does not presuppose the Roman law concept of the sovereign right of property. Indeed, the word "theft" chronologically predates the entire Roman empire! —Jemmy_tc 10:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Steve, for you to say "[you're] the one working with others for a consensus" is most absurd. You have STILL not responded to my justification for reverting, from over a week ago. You just kept on reverting for a week without responding, until I gave up. That is what you call working with others for a consensus? Why should I not revert even now? (I will.) You have shown a clear unwillingness to discuss the issue. You also did not respond to my comments about the page from tonight -- only to my comment about objectivists. Objectivists, or really any ists, should not be editing this sort of material: you are not objective. You are pushing your point of view. I am seriously trying to treat Proudhon scholarly. You are not.

With regard to psychologizing, would you agree with the statement of Bertrand Russell: "in men whose reasoning powers are good, fallacy is evidence of bias"? Consider the statement of Skomorokh: "relevant reliably sourced material from Branden, a notable individual." Is that not so obvious an error (since -- as I said -- notability is a standard for the existence of an article, not for inclusion of an author's point of view) that it indicates a bias? —Jemmy_tc 10:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, you're certainly right that the sentence from Marx references the phrase. (In truth I had barely skimmed the added content.) Still, Marx's criticism was not that the phrase contradicts itself: Marx agrees with the phrase in his previous sentence: "The upshot is at best that the bourgeois legal conceptions of “theft” apply equally well to the “honest” gains of the bourgeois himself." That is, Marx agrees, with respect to the phrase, that it is property which contradicts itself, and not Proudhon. His criticism of Proudhon for "presupposing property" is not that it is contradictory to presuppose property and call it theft, but that to presuppose property fails to take into account the historicity of property (its dependence on a specific historical form of production). —Jemmy_tc 11:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Jemmy, do not modify my comments with bolding or by breaking them in half, or insert your comments into the middle of mine. They are my commments - don't jumble yours up in the middle of them!

You said that I "...have STILL not responded to [your] justification for reverting, from over a week ago." You accuse me of reverting for a week without responding - that is NOT true. Look at all of the comments with my signature, look at the dates! There was only one time that I did not put something in the talk page and that was because you had said nothing different in your talk page comment and I would have been repeating myself to make a comment. It is you that did not respond for three deletions in a row and on several of your discussion entries you have been down-right rude and engaged in character assasination. You said that I "...have shown a clear unwillingness to discuss the issue." That is a blatant lie - look at the items with my signature on this page in the last week - do words mean nothing to you? Do you think you can just say anything and it magically has merit no matter how far from the truth it is. Do I need to count the words of my replies, the column inches?

You say that that the stolen concept fallacy has nothing to do with text. Excuse me, but if the text is organized into words and they represent concepts, then it does. You say "it [Branden's point] supposes that there is a concept used (not a symbol)..." Jemmy, in your mental world it may seem natural to have words (symbols) that have no meaning and it may seem natural to you to then provide us a seemingly endless stream of interpretations of meanings, just after saying they don't have meaning.

You accuse one of the editors of bias because he used the word "notable" as an adjective in a context outside of the WP policy for article inclusion. There is no good faith in that kind of loose and mistaken accusation.

You are not trying to treat this article or Proudhon in a scholarly fashion - you are trying to censor valid criticism.

"Theft" does NOT pre-date "property" - it can't for the reasons already given in the criticism you are so desperate to censor. The phrase stands on its own - in an article named with the phrase - a phrase often used to attack the concept of ANY property as valid - and the criticism is valid.

You fail to grasp that Marx and Branden are pointing out a flaw that is fatal to that phrase carrying any meaning other than some sort of fuzzy poetical illusion. I have not deleted the material saying that Proudhon didn't mean for it to be taken literaly. I have let my entry be edited down in size. I have tried to work with people here and they have tried to work with me - except for you! That entry is a valid and relevant criticism. All of your origonal research rants about what you think it means or what you think others mean or why you think the criticisms don't apply are in your head or in your comments but they aren't encyclopedia material or within WP policy. Stop being disruptive. Stop pushing your irrational hatred of anything remotely related to Objectivism - it is a personal agenda. Leave valid, sourced material alone.

I am not obliged to reply to every thing you say (some of which are barely intelligible). I have never failed to provide clear explanations of my actions and the reasons for them. I doubt that anyone else would think otherwise. --Steve (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Jemmy's Statement

You have still not responded to my comments of 21:19, 17 July 2008. Yes, you have indeed posted to this talk page -- but you did not respond to me regarding the deletion of this section. You really are confused about my motives: I am not trying to remove this material because it is critical, I am trying to remove it because it is embarrassing. I would like to be proud of the page, given the (admittedly small -- although not if you count this talk page crap) effort I've put into it.

Even now, you really aren't discussing the substance of my comments. You harp on my rudeness, accuse me of "ad hominem" (which is not what you think it is), etc., all the while failing to address the fact -- which really, I understand, you cannot address -- that this material is fringe crap, rather than serious scholarly content relevant to Proudhon. Objectivism is a little cult, you know? It doesn't belong on this page. You're just like one of those 911 truth guys. Think about all the poor suckers putting serious effort into documenting the 911 attacks, and then the 911 truth patrol comes around and fucks up their page. Of course they're going to be frustrated, even rude, but in that case there's enough of them to oust the quacks. In this case it's just me.

Anyway, I really have nothing to add to the comments I've posted, which you haven't substantially addressed. The administrators here are worthless -- they say it's a content dispute. There's really no dealing with quacks is there? You just have to outnumber them. Anyway maybe you could like do a google scholar search for "property is theft" -- I did it last night -- and see how the phrase is treated in the literature. In non-fringe publications, Proudhon is not interpreted obtusely as an easy way to defend property -- not because there aren't defenders of property, but because such an argument is in bad faith and would be embarrassing to make for a person who wants to look intelligent to intelligent people.

It's kind of ironic, the connection between the way Branden deliberately misinterprets Proudhon's phrase, and this particular discourse -- the way both cases say the same thing about discourses. If you're just trying to win, you always can, simply by not truly understanding the other guy -- not to say that anybody will bother to listen to you in turn.

This particular section is not intended to create a discussion. It is my own personal communication to you. I'd prefer you not immediately try to refute it, but just read it. (While you were reading it the first time, you may have been thinking up in your head ways to refute it. If so, would you please read it again, just as a personal favor to me?) If you'd like to discuss the deletion of the section, please respond to the substance of my comment on 21:19, 17 July 2008. —Jemmy_tc 08:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

A few quick comments. You would portray yourself in a better light if you focused on addressing contributions rather than contributors; comments like "Objectivism is a little cult", "You're just like one of those 911 truth guys" are revealing that you have a strong pov on this issue. The burden of proof is on the person adding material to make it sourced, neutral and relevant; this is. If it's so easy to show in the literature that Branden is wrong, why don't you add that sourced material to the article instead of filling the talkpage with extra inches? Thirdly, admins are right in that this is a content dispute outside of their jurisdiction; but we have processes for that. If you are genuinely interested in reaching a consensus, post a comment at the fringe theories or reliable sources noticeboard. I see EmbraceParadox's thread at WP:NPOVN didn't get a response, so you might want to skip this and file an WP:RFC instead. At the moment it seems you are more interested in arguing than reaching consensus. I think the article is better with the Literal contradiction section in, but I'm not going to edit war as a gesture of good faith for us to dialogue. Sincerely, Skomorokh 09:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You say: "If it's so easy to show in the literature that Branden is wrong, why don't you add that sourced material to the article." You really don't get it. It's for the same reason that the 911 articles don't refute 911 truth. The very existence of this crap makes the article into a mockery, in the same way that creationism would on the evolution page. You are quite wrong that relevance, sources, and neutrality are sufficient standards for inclusion of material in an article: the material should also not be ridiculous and out of place. I am not particularly interested in arguing, certainly not with StephenWolfer, who is apparently incapable of it. He insists he has already responded to me, because he talked with EmbraceParadox. How absurd is that? How can such a person be taken seriously, or as acting in good faith? Such a person will never change their mind in response to anything. —Jemmy_tc 13:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality covers WP:FRINGE, which is what I think you are getting at. That we could have a discussion about, instead of your personal opinions on the merits of Objectivist philosophy or how you have been wronged by SteveWolfer, who is such a bad person because of x, y and z. Skomorokh 14:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Jemmy, you said that I did not respond to issues you raised on 21:19, 17 July 2008. First, you inserted your comments out of chronological order - so don't expect to get answers immediately - which no one is required to do anyway. The points you put forth weren't all worthy of being addressed - like the personal attacks on me. I did address all of the other issues you raised in various posts before and after the date of your post. Your claim that I didn't address your comments is wrong. My explanations are there for everyone to see: made at 17:50, 16 July 2008, 10:34, 17 July 2008, 18:20, 17 July 2008, 08:48, 18 July 2008, 05:13, 23 July, etc.

You asked ME for a personal favor to YOU - that I read your univited personal attacks on me, not just once but twice! I did read them twice, because the first read made me too irritated to be able to reply clearly. What right have you to ask ME for a personal favor when your comments are larded with accusations against me? You imply I'm a quack and then have the gall to ask favors! You paint yourself as some kind of Lone Ranger and sole possessor of the truth. You slander the administrators, calling them worthless, for not agreeing with your views. You claim pure motives yet admit that it is only because you are upset that your personal contribution's POV isn't being left just the way you want it - you get upset because everyone doesn't see things your way and because your pride of authorship is your main motivation.

You say that I'm not addressing the substance of your comments. Not true. I have, again and again - but I also have a right and a duty to point out your violations of WP policy and that your personal attacks on me are wrong. On some plane of mental functioning, you don't appear to understand that words have meanings and without that no real communication is possible, just as with no meeting of the minds there can be no true contract, and you don't appear to grasp that the identification of logical fallacies is the necessary means of protecting knowledge by examining the the methods of combining conceptual meanings into asssertions and communicating them as words.

You are still acting disruptively, deleting valid, appropriate, sourced material. Your personal attacks violate WP Policy and the spirit of editing that should be present here. --Steve (talk) 09:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Enough

Right, this edit war stops here. Either we come to consensus on what should be in the article, pursue dispute resolution or disengage from this article. Anyone makes a tendentious reversion, I'm going to recommend they be blocked. Skomorokh 13:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit war

I've protected the article temporarily so that the dispute can be resolve somewhere else than in the article itself. The participants may wish to avail themselves of the dispute resolution options if they are unable to reach consensus here. — Coren ^(talk) 14:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Coren. I've initiated a request for comment below. As someone of exotic tastes in political philosophy, I am in the unique position of being a participant in both WikiProject Objectivism (dormant) and the Anarchism taskforce. I've left comments with both asking for input here; I hope this is appropriate. Skomorokh 17:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment

Template:RFCpol Should a section on the perceived literal contradiction of the phrase "property is theft!" be included in this article? See this diff for an example of such a section. Skomorokh 17:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Certainly there has been significant criticism to justify a mention of that fact. I think just Marx's criticism is sufficient for now. If we had an article on the fallacy of the stolen concept, then Branden's would be useful, using less text and linked to there. — DAGwyn (talk) 00:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup. I'd agree to that. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Briefly worded, but adequate, criticisms from both Marx and Branden are justified. Branden's material is better for explaining the fallacy, and the addition of Marx shows that the criticism extends beyond politics and economics and goes to the heart of meaning itself, in this particular phrase. That IS what the criticism is about. Having both helps demonstrate that the criticism isn't knee-jerk political reaction - having an equally brief counter-criticism rounds out the article such that every reader has the full picture instead of one POV or another - with nothing censored. --Steve (talk) 06:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no very clear case for logical contradiction in What Is Property? Probably, there is no case at all. At the very beginning of the first chapter Proudhon defined the simple property that he criticized as one of a number of at least two forms, another of which is "possession." It is also necessary to consider that "contradiction" played a very specific role in Proudhon's philosophy, which should have been clear to Marx at the time of his criticism. It would be necessary to include material from "The System of Economic Contradictions" along with any criticisms, in order to be balanced and not badly mislead readers about the issues at stake. The waters get deep fast here, in a way that Wikipedia is notoriously bad at handling. Libertatia (talk) 15:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not the criticisms are included, the second paragraph should be modified to reflect the opposition of "domain" and "possession" as two forms of "property." Presently, the article lends itself to the contradiction criticism far more than the original text does. Libertatia (talk) 17:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes it should be included. Presented diff is balanced and it gives to readers a better understanding of controversy behind the phrase. -- Vision Thing -- 16:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• An important additional question, and maybe the real question, is about how much airtime, if any, Nathaniel Branden should get. Even people disagree with the way Marx is presented, I don't think anyone objects to his mention. (Actually, I don't really agree with my own presentation either. My official excuse is that I thought it likely I would be reverted, though in reality I was just lazy.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 17:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Neither Branden nor Marx are being given "air time" - their criticisms of the phrase are being made available to readers of the article for the purpose of a balanced presentation. --Steve (talk) 08:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, okay, but I mean, it really seems to boil down to: whether we should simply say "theft, as a forcible violation of property, presupposes the existence of property", or perhaps some other such thing as used to be in the article prior to the insertion of the reference to Branden; or, whether we should mention Branden's fallacy of the stolen concept, and if so, to what extent. You and Skomorokh say the fallacy is stated more clearly, gives a better explanation, and gives a broader scope of criticism. Jemmy and I say it does no such thing.

That's our dispute isn't it? Or at least, it was, before it all became buried under a giant steaming pile of who-said-what-when. I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth here. If I have misrepresented anyone, I am sorry, please correct me. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 15:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick comment; please don't attribute to me arguments I have not made. Thanks, Skomorokh 15:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. How about: You say Branden's quote is more explicit, gives the reader a better idea of the supposedly fallacious reasoning, and is properly sourced analysis from a notable figure. And I say it is no such thing. This is right at the end of the "Objectivist critique" section above. Is this still unfair? (I hope it's fair, for my own sake. I mean, if I can't even fairly characterise your position, then I am self-deluded in thinking I have any business writing Wikipedia. I should be banished to Usenet or something.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Can property be distinguished from theft?

Whatever your answer to the question (please, don't supply it), if the question has any meaning then the phrase "property is theft" does not contradict itself -- because it supplies an answer; viz., "no."

I really don't want to have this debate. But I think it might be best -- or anyway the only way to resolve the dispute -- if this point were made very clear to all.

I would also like to emphasize two more points:

1. Proudhon did believe in property rights -- but not Roman law property rights as, apparently, were commonly used at the time in the philosophy of law to justify property. According to my scan of google scholar, Proudhon is commonly misunderstood as meaning that all property is theft because all property derives from theft -- i.e., that everything anyone claims to own has been stolen. In fact, although this is probably a common enough argument against property, it was not Proudhon's. Proudhon rather focused on the state of the economy as a whole: he asserted that the working class was dispossessed of its rightful property by Roman law property rights. Thus, there is a real contradiction (not in the phrase, but in the work of Proudhon as a whole) if "property is theft" is interpreted under the naive assumption that there is only one form of property. (But that would be a horrible mistake.)
2. Marx did not criticize Proudhon for contradicting himself in the way that Branden did -- their arguments are very different. In the previous sentence to the one that is being quoted, Marx clearly states that it is "bourgeois property" that contradicts itself, rather than Proudhon. ("Bourgeois property" being what, Marx says, Proudhon should be thinking about, rather than Roman law.) Marx says that it is because Proudhon criticizes bourgeois property from within the framework of bourgeois property law, that he fails to understand what bourgeois property is (i.e., fails to conceive of it through Marx's theory of "dialectical materialism"). This is all the more clearly stated in the two preceding paragraphs. Again: Marx does not say that, because Proudhon assumes property, he contradicts himself; Marx says that, because Proudhon assumes property, he fails to understand what property is. Marx wants Proudhon to "step outside" his historical period, and see "bourgeois property" as the manifestation of the methods of production, and legal theory as mere justification for what is in fact determined by technological forces -- which he cannot do, if he assumes property and thinks within its framework. (Perhaps Marx's argument could be summed up so: "Proudhon is no Marxist!") —Jemmy_tc 18:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)