Talk:Russo-Georgian War

What to do and what not to do on this article

Do

• Be neutral (scrupulously so)
• Be verifiable.
• Be bold
• Be collaborative

Don't

• Don't complain about the title. We've been over this and this page is staying at this location for now.
• Don't be original.
• Don't edit war
• Don't soapbox.
• Don't randomly stick tags everywhere. {{sofixit}}, if you please.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.

It is getting over

Russian Defence Ministry said it has no plans to attack Tbilisi. "We do not have and have never had any plans to advance on Tbilisi," cites Interfax agency a source in Russian command. Also Russian troops reportedly left Senaki military base. Russia says no plan to attack Tbilisi Российские войска покинули район города Сенаки

Seems to be getting over. Russia needs not Tbilisi, Georgia retreats from Tskhinvali.Garret Beaumain (talk) 20:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I can say it's pretty tense here in Tbilisi among the few westerners that's still here. Some say Russian troops will attack Tbilisi soon. But I was downtown just some hours ago and couldn't notice anything special. The only thing that's unnormal is that the TV tower isn't lightened. Narking (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for report.Garret Beaumain (talk) 20:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are many rumours here now. One Georgian soldier said now in the evening that the Russians are already in Mshketa. But I doubt that. Narking (talk) 20:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reports, Narking. Stay safe and God bless. I am praying for you personally in the range of my broader prayers. Christiangoth (talk) 20:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. So far it's calm here. Even though it seems like there are fewer and fewer lights in town. Just some minutes ago the TV tower went totally dark. TV works still though. The mobile net doesn't work since during the day. Narking (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Either just protection or the russians aint retreating... Based on whats going on, it might be botrh, but if the mobile networks down that cuts off information in that form.--Jakezing (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Every on-the-ground source I have seen (Reuters, Al J, "anonmyous US official" - can you say "military advisory coordinator" ;-) ) says that until the last night, no significant Russian forces had advanced significantly beyond the border, not to Gori, and certainly not to Mshketa. Seems they have taken the first large village/military base/police station (whatever's closest) on every trunk road leaving the areas of dispute, and that's that. Of course, new day, new game... but it might really be over.

It might get messy in Tbilisi though; as you can see some in the US believe that the whole governmental/military apparatus of Georgia has its back broken. Every report I have seen from N "mainland" Georgia speaks of a wholesale rout of Georgian forces, no C3I beyond platoon level if even that much (the Al J correspondent was pretty blunt about it being like "every tank crew on its own"). Stay tight, keep up the good work and CYA. Peace. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 05:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian advances from Abkhazia

AP report from yahoo.com [[1]]

An advance and claimed withdrawal from Senaki.

"Russian armored personnel carriers moved into Senaki, a town 20 miles inland from Georgia's Black Sea port of Poti, Lomaia said. Russian news agencies late Monday cited the Defense Ministry as saying the troops had left Senaki "after liquidating the danger," but did not give details."

Russians holding on to Zugdidi, and Abkhaz militias move into Kurga (in Georgia proper, not the disputed Kodori Gorge).

"Russian forces also moved into Zugdidi, near Abkhazia, and seized police stations, while their Abkhazian allies took control of the nearby village of Kurga, according to witnesses and Georgian officials."

"In Zugdidi, an AP reporter saw five or six Russian soldiers posted outside an Interior Ministry building."

Similar information from cnn.com [[2]]

Similar information about Senaki citing the Russian ministry of Defence from lemonde.fr [[3]]

"Des soldats russes sont entrés en territoire géorgien, près de Senaki, pour empêcher de nouvelles attaques géorgiennes contre l'Ossétie du Sud, annonce le ministère de la défense russe." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.44.195 (talk) 20:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Another French source (Le Figaro) giving the same information. [[4]]

"L'armée russe a occupé une base militaire près de la ville de Senaki «pour empêcher de nouvelles attaques géorgiennes en Ossétie du Sud». Dans la soirée, le ministère russe de la défense assure que les soldats se sont retirés de cette ville. Un haut responsable géorgien indique également que les forces russes occupent Gori, la plus grande ville géorgienne près de l'Ossétie du Sud, ce que le ministère russe de la défense dément. Des soldats russes sont également entrés dans la ville de Zougdidi, près de l'Abkhazie, selon un photographe de presse sur place."

The article states: "Also Russian troops reportedly left Senaki military base." but it never says that the Russian military entered Senaki.

• It does. "The Georgian Minister of Defense announced that the Georgian military base in Senaki, outside Abkhazia, was captured by Russian armored vehicles, and the Associated Press indicated that a government official in Moscow confirmed the move."Garret Beaumain (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe for a future 'Aftermath' section here or in the Reactions page

Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance. 132.68.248.44 (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

That might actually have a place in the International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war article. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 20:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with StuffofInterest. I'd like to note, however, that the sensationalist headline does not follow from the Russian quote. Russia did not warn that they "would" pay, but rather that those kinds of comments can be made without thought and then paid for for a long time afterwards. I would therefore suggest that the Russian quotation, rather than the article's interpretation, be used. Of course, we also can not make our own interpretation, as that would be original research. Christiangoth (talk) 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the doubt as to where to put it was expressed already in the heading. Intuitively it has to do with the international reactions, however: 1) this is not "international reaction" but a statement by a diplomat of a fighting side; 2) Comments by the warring factions are at the moment kept at this page, e.g. accusations of Western media bias; 3) Such "reactions to reactions" do not fit anywhere in the current structure of the International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war page. Maybe changing the relations page structure is a preferable solution. As to the meaning of the quote, this is diplomacy language. The headline appears to summarize it pretty well in "normal language" and quoting that summary is not original research. 132.68.248.44 (talk) 21:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Casualties - switched to two sets of figures

As the conflict grows older, the difference in losses reported by one side and those acknowledged by the other seems to grow. This is a phenomenon common in warfare; usually the truth lies somewhere in between.

In order to clearly distinguish between figures claimed by side A and those acknowledged by side B, I've modified the Casualties and Losses section. For both sides, it now contains separate sections on how many casualties the side has admitted to have suffered and on how many casualties the other side claims it has inflicted.

I feel that this is the best way to keep the figures from being mixed up and to prevent edit-wars. Please comment if you disagree, otherwise please add as much sourced information as possible.

Whoops, too fast. That was me. Tritec (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

South Ossetia claimed that it had killed 700 Georgians in the Battle of Tskinvali —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't spot it in the article Battle of Tskhinvali, do you have a source for the claim? I guess keeping up with the casualties will be difficult, as the claims will vary widely. Also, the question on who can be said to represent the official Russian position and who the official Georgian position regarding casualties is a difficult one. Tritec (talk) 20:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Question: What do we do about the 21 dead reported earlier and the 18 dead reported today? Is it 39 that we can report for Russia as confirmed, since they had confirmed 21 at one point then 18 at another without much clarification?70.131.218.57 (talk) 20:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane

I think we can change it to 39. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 (talk) 20:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

And how would a new member do so since this article is, rightly. semi-protected?ShaneMarsh (talk) 20:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Add the proposed text to the discussion page, and request that an established member move the material to the mainspace article. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• I see. Well, all I would think would be in order would be the change from 21 to 39...so if an established member would like to do that, rock on.ShaneMarsh (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

God damn, no. The fog of war and/or propaganda war is so great they even don't know/don't want to reveal their own losses, and you want to publish also their enemy losses claims? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I feel that the claims should be published. As I implied in the first post, parties usually tend to under-report their own losses and over-report the casualties they think the other side has suffered. We shouldn't simply report the casualties acknowledged by both parties and assume that they are closer to the truth than the casualties the other side claims to have inflicted.

I think we should report both claimed and acknowledged casualties, rather than implicitly suggesting that the acknowledged casualties represent "the truth". Tritec (talk) 21:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Someone changed it to 21, despite the agreement here.ShaneMarsh (talk) 21:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

References

Reading some of the debates ongoing around references I thought I'd do some analysis of the sources by country. As of 2:00pm PST there were 274 reference links and they break down as follows:

• Russia 114
• International (AP, AFP, Reuters) 45
• UK 35
• USA 30
• Georgia 16
• EU (exclude UK) 14
• Israel 6
• India 3
• United Nations 3
• Unidentifiable 2
• Ausralia 1
• Estonia 1
• Lithuania 1
• Malaysia 1
• New Zeland 1
• South Africa 1

Macutty (talk) 21:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

While large internationally and maintaining a strict editorial neutralality reuters is a british news agency and AFP is a french government agency (Agence France-Presse, (not alleging bias just your breaking them down by origin) WatcherZero (talk) 21:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

There's an almost even number of Russian and western sources. I'd like to see more that aren't from either side, personally. More from the middle-east, Africa, China, India etc.. LokiiT (talk) 22:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Most of them will be repeating Western sources, since they don't have correspondents in Georgia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The west is not a side in this conflict. Georgia is on one side and Russia/S. Ossetia is on the other. I was trying to demonstrate the unbalanced number of references from one of the belligerents (Russia) in this article. I’d suggest we not use any references from either Georgia or Russia in the article to demonstrate fact as neither is going to fairly or accurately report events as they happen. Maybe a section devoted to listing the claims made by either’s media (or propaganda depending on how you want to look at it) but using them as references of fact is pointless. Macutty (talk) 01:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

actually, the west is very much on one side of this conflict. Georgia is an ally of the USA and candidate for NATO and the EU. by excluding Russian and Georgian sources would make this entire excecise a massive opinion piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.203.223.29 (talk) 06:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently Russian journalists that are traveling with Russian troops are seeing more action than western ones that are fleeing Gori together with Saakashvili. Pardon my sarcasm. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 05:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

George Bush Speech Aug 11th

Upon returning to the White House from China George Bush has given a speech setting out that the US interpretation of the Russian motive is regime change and their intelligence indicates Russian planes are preparing to sortie a massive raid on the civilian Tblisi International Airport. He goes on to condemn attacks on communication infrastructure and repeats the previously stated US position that Russia should cease hostilities and withdraw to the August 6th lines. WatcherZero (talk) 21:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

UN transcript from 10 Aug

I updated the 10 August emergency session of the United Nations Security Council section by substituting text from the UN transcript http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N08/455/78/PDF/N0845578.pdf?OpenElement. It is a very interesting transcript Jason3777 (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we should use official UN transcripts where ever possible instead of News Articles about the sessions. They record EXACTLY who said what, not what is reportedly said. Jason3777 (talk) 21:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Link doesn't work for me, it says I need to allow cookies (which doesn't help either). Would be useful to know if I'm the only one with such a problem, as a non-accessable reference is probably not very useful. OelnJa (talk) 22:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I can access it with no problem. Do you have a pdf reader?Jason3777 (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

But we should not pick our own quotes out of the UN transcripts. That's WP:OR. Let the news organizations decide what's newsworthy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I simply replaced the CNN references with the original UN text. I did let them decide what was important.Jason3777 (talk) 23:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, the original link to CNN article follows "Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon" in the same section.Jason3777 (talk) 23:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I have added the CNN ref to both of the UN references. Thanks Septentrionalis PMAnderson, I read the WP:OR and I assure you I don’t do Original Research on WikipediaJason3777 (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The above link does not work for me either. But the .pdf document referred to by Jason3777 can be retrieved from the UN Security Council site here (the one from Aug 10th, there are others as well). 132.68.248.44 (talk) 22:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, this one works for me, thanks. OelnJa (talk) 23:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I can access it easily with Firefox, but can not access it with Internet Explore, nor Internet Explorer, Flock or Netscape on my roommate’s computer (very old and very slow computer. Does anyone know why this is occuring?Jason3777 (talk) 23:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This is strange, because they both use the same http address. Does anyone know why, or how I can ref it better since the address are the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason3777 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I can no longer access this site through Firefox, even though I accessed it all day with no problem. Could some explain what is going on. How do we access the UN documents and reference them? This should be public information. Why is this change occurring? Does the UN not want easy access to the UN transcripts? This is very confusing. How do I mark up a UN transcript document in Wiki? Where can I get information on Wiki concerning how the reference these document? Please anyone who knows how to access a direct UN transcript page please let me know what format in ref to use to easily access. What talk group should I go to to find the correct ref format to use to access a UN page. It seems that the UN is closing easy access to their transcripts unsouceable. This change happened today. Earlier - easy, currently not possible through the http address even the the address is the same whether using the direct address or going though the alternate above address. This is very disturbing. They are making it hard to access the transcripts using a reference. Could it be politics?Jason3777 (talk) 03:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason3777 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

concerning the edit I made18:34, August 11, 2008 Jason3777 (Talk | contribs) (137,993 bytes) (→August 10: Georgia begins withdrawing from Tskhinvali: removed alleged "regime change" becauce not documented in state Russian source.) should read "stated". SorryJason3777 (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank you Jason3777 for putting this here. It was a most informative and interesting read. A shame we can't just add the whole page as citation.210.215.75.4 (talk) 03:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't make grammar corrections due to lock

Apparently I am not eligible to make any edits, but there were a few sentences / concepts that were worded in a confusing or improper manner. Can someone make these changes?
First, in the introduction: "The conflict began in August 2008; after declaring a ceasefire." This is not correctly punctuated. A dash may be more appropriate, but a semi-colon suggests that a new idea was begun that requires both a subject and verb. The second problem with this is that it is a confusing statement. Usually cease-fires require conflict to have alread ensued. What cease-fire is being referred to? If it is referring to the conflict in the early 90's, the phrase could probably be completely removed as previous sentences implied that those conflicts had been at least temporarily resolved. If the phrase is retained, however, it should be clarified what the cease-fire refers to.
The second, also in the introduction: "South Ossetian leadership claimed that the Georgian side begun shooting first." This statement already has the problem of being uncited, but the word "begun" is not the correct word. Either "began" or "had begun". As it stands, it is grammatically incorrect.
The final oddity is referred to above over the dispute regarding occupation of Gori: "According to Georgian officials, the city of Gori, 40 miles (64 km) from the Georgain capital, has fallen to Russian forces.[163] Russian's defense ministry denied the information, claiming there were no russian troops on Gori. [164]. Also, this was confirmed by Reuters reporters James Kilner and Margarita Antidze, who said that there is no any "trace of troops or military vehicles, it is absolutely deserted".[165] This has also been stated by the British Foreign Secretary who said '...British representatives on the ground and the media have reported that Russia has extended the fighting today well beyond South Ossetia, attacking the Georgian port of Poti ,and the town of Gori, ... I deplore this.'[166]" The way it is currently phrased ("This has also been stated...") implies that the statement from the UK should reinforce the assertion that Gori was not, in fact, occupied. The statement made seems to do quite the opposite. The person cited only makes the statement that his sources said that Gori had been occupied and that he does not approve. It does not back-up the Reuters report, as the text currently implies that it should. The text should be changed accordingly.
Could an editor that is able to make these changes please do so? Thanks. BobertWABC (talk) 21:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

New Map

I just created a new map showing the development of the first few days of the conflict / war ... however you want to call it. It may be interesting for the article. -- DanteRay (talk) 22:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed to marking movement of refugees with arrows. It is very confusing. Colchicum (talk) 22:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

What are your sources, by the way? Colchicum (talk) 22:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It's incoherent, it doesn't give me the slightest grasp on the conflict. What sources did you use? LokiiT (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It's based on this map from a German newspaper -- DanteRay (talk) 22:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It might make more sense if I could read all those little text boxes, I can't read German though. LokiiT (talk) 22:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Those boxes describe the basic stuff which is written in the wikipedia article ... attacks on pipelines, the attacks on Gori and Poti etc ... And I think with the information from the article the map makes sense. Come on, it's a map and nothing more. -- DanteRay (talk) 22:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No offense but i don't like the map, its too chaotic, not easy to understand. I think a simpler version of that with less pictures and colours would be better. Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well then don't take it. It was just a suggestion, nothing more. -- DanteRay (talk) 22:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The map is not written in proper English (for example, "Chechenia"). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems you're marking areas which have merely been bombed as "fights" but you haven't actually marked the bombing campaign against the Kodori Gorge, which doesn't make a lot of sense.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

you could be a bit more supportive of the initiative. the map certainly needs some improvement, but it definitely is a good idea. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I changed the "fights" to "attacks" and added the bombardment in the Kodori Gorge. Also I changed "Chechenia" to "Chechen" (btw. I didn't post the names of the cities and regions there myself ... the map came this way ... so it's not my fault that the map isn't written in proper English.) -- DanteRay (talk) 05:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is this particular map a good idea? There are enough in article already and this map wouldn't show anything vastly different since it couldn't reasonable claim to show Russian frontlines for which we can find no independent verification - for instance the map shows Gori behind Russian frontlines but it increasing seems that the claim that Gori had fallen to Russian forces was more due to statements made out of Georgian government confusion as opposed to actual fact. And given that, how can we be sure that Poti, Zugdidi and Senaki are behind Russian frontlines as well? In the flurry of news items and snippets I remember seeing some story about Georgia being okay with the Russian forces in Abkhazia who are acting as peacekeepers being able to deploy in Zugdidi as part of a ceasefire deal, then another story came out that Russian forces were occupying Zugdidi. Russia admitted to raiding Senaki and simple geography should tell us that in order to raid Senaki Russian forces must have passed through or relatively near Zugdidi and for all we know Zugdidi could simply have been raided as well. The idea that every war must have "frontlines" if conventional forces are involved is too simplistic. Nobody drew frontline maps for the 2006 Lebanon War between Israel and Hezbollah, because Israeli forces weren't moving into and holding territory long enough for there to be frontlines anyway (at least not until the closing stages of the war when Israel sent forces much deeper into southern Lebanon and even then the situation was too confusing to draw proper frontlines). For most of that war, what was happening was more like numerous and sometimes lengthy Israeli raids - who's to say the same thing or something similar couldn't be happening here? And given that the first reports I saw about Russian forces ever being as far into Georgia as Senaki was from Russia itself (and it was supposedly after the fact when Russian soldiers had supposedly already left Senaki) it seems strange that somehow the Georgian government missed that particular development and may point towards the Georgian government disorganization/confusion when it comes to know what is actually going on. So drawing any frontlines based off independent news sources who are simply stating Georgian claims is probably jumping the gun until those independent news sources actually verify the claims and counter-claims (if they ever do). The map also seems to show airstrikes on or near some of the pipelines, but on the BBC one report had said that the pipeline operators had reported no attacks on the pipelines but a fire along the pipeline in Turkey, so even some of the mapped airstrikes might be questionable (though the ones near Tbilisi should be okay since it should be easy to find some verification of any airstrike on the Tbilisi airport and nearby military base). So what's left for the map to show other than locations which other maps show just as well?72.27.174.160 (talk) 05:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This was unnecessarily lengthy. You have a point regarding some inaccuracies, but the benefit of having this or a similar map is to show how far Russians had advanced (even if they haven't stayed long) and which points they targeted either by air raids or otherwise. It may be difficult to draw precise lines, but this conflict is still ongoing and virtually nothing that's written in this article can be 100% verified and true. Now, how they reached Senaki, shot down two copters and killed dozens of soldiers, I'd live to someone else to figure. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 05:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I added some short remarks on the map to make it more clear. -- DanteRay (talk) 06:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This new map is much better than the previous map Ijanderson977 (talk) 06:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree it is a lot better though I thought Russia had tanks in Abkhazia. Also Russia has pulled out of Senaki as I recall. Also putting the line of control a little north of Gori would be better as there is no indication they have actually taken the city. On another note the proper name for the Russian province is Chechnya. All the same I'm not so sure there should be a map of this since we're talking about an ongoing conflict. However, I think this could be a very good idea when this conflict ends.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I added a tank in Abkhazia and moved the border around Gori. -- DanteRay (talk) 06:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

But the orange arrows are positioned wrongly. The troops most certainly didn't fly over the Caucasus mountains. They went through the Roki tunnel into S. Ossetia, and it is not clear how did they get to Abkhazia, probably from the west across the Psou River, maybe partially from the sea, but certainly not from the north across the mountain ranges. Quite possibly they had already been deployed by August 8. And the most serious problem is that we have no sources for all this. Colchicum (talk) 06:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, it's based on this map. So there is a source. -- DanteRay (talk) 06:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

International Crisis Group - NEW MEDIA RELEASE

Georgia Conflict Alert: Russia must withdraw its troops from Georgia

Tbilisi/Brussels, 11 August 2008: Russia must cease its advances within Georgia, immediately withdraw its troops to its peacekeeping positions, and restore the status quo ante.

During the course of today, 11 August 2008, Russian troops, backed by its air force, advanced deep into Georgia, well beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and apparently took control of the Georgian towns of Gori, Senaki and Zugdidi, among others.

Russia has no legitimate security interests justifying its advance beyond the boundaries of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It is not performing a peacekeeping function or defending the rights of Russian citizens. Today’s advances and attacks raise real doubts about Russia’s intentions with respect to Georgia. These steps appear aimed at undermining Georgia’s capacity to function as a state.

Russia must immediately agree to the ceasefire proposal made by European Union and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) envoys, the French and Finnish Foreign Ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb, which Georgia has signed.

The international community, and particularly the United States and the European Union, must make it unequivocally clear that Russia’s aggression is a flagrant violation of international law and undermines its legitimacy as a defender of that law. It must also declare that failure to withdraw its troops back to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and then to Russia, will be strongly condemned and will significantly damage Russia’s relations with the U.S. and EU. Western heads of state should deliver this message forcefully to the Russian president and prime minister, including in person in Moscow.

Once hostilities have ceased and withdrawal occurred, negotiations should take place between Russia, Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia to sign a non-resumption of hostilities text and agree to a revised peacekeeping arrangement and new negotiations format. All parties must secure the return of displaced persons and provide humanitarian assistance.[5]--93.177.151.101 (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of this group. They don't seem to have a lot influence. -- DanteRay (talk) 22:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. Also, aren't they supposed to "ring a bell" BEFORE conflict starts? Seems like they failed to do their job. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 05:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, these guys sounds like one of the hundreds of over zealous 'rights' groups that loves to cry over these things with no real understanding —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.203.223.29 (talk) 06:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is some anti-russia, pro US, group even though ossetia wants independence and can allie itself with whoever it likes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.59.87 (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

They are one of the most influential, non-partisan and well respected lobbying groups in Brussels. If you haven't heard of them, then be content that everybody who works in the European Parliament has! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.32.22 (talk) 08:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Gori never fell according to a BBC citation of a Georgian government spokesman

The BBC's latest headline report on the conflict (last updated 21:39 GMT on August 11th) cites a Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman as saying that Russian troops were never in Gori: The conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened when Georgia accused Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.

Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.

He said the Russian Army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted the Georgian army had fled the area without putting up a fight.

Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze then said.... and the article goes to outline more claims and counterclaims.

For the whole article see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm

Perhaps this should be added to the section on the article about the claims surrounding Gori?72.27.174.160 (talk) 22:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

We have that above. (It does not say Gori never fell; but that the Georgians fled instead of fighting for it, and that the Russians did not occupy it. If the Georgians all fled, there would not be much reason to cccupy Gori.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The NYT cites "numerous but unconfirmed reports" of the capture of Gori. This adds up to the same thing: wait till tomorrow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe the Russians have occupied the area around Gori and the suburbs. Thats from local Georgians I have talked to. Attilavolciak07 (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Could those local Georgians acts as citizen reporter and act as reporter independent from govt, and put things on the website so that it can be put as an reference? We can't put something as an reference because a writer hear/know another guy see blah blah blah--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 01:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

as an valid reference it must not be oiginal research, having who is author, when is written, and hopeful he is not a solider nor offical.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 01:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Last night the reporters of a Turkish Televisin, Kanal D , verified that Russian troops occupied Gori, that they had to cut the live broadcasting from the area because Russians were approaching. Link to the video (in Turkish): [6](talk) 06:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Top Gun vandalizing Battle of Tskhinvali again

this again and again and again - while there's actually NOTHING about "180" in the article (not even to mention anything about "180 soldiers killed at Tskhinvali" - plus, even few hours ago Georgia was saying it didn't lost that many soldiers TOTAL).

I told him. In the talk page, in the edit summary, even in the article's body. He knows. And he did it anyway. Can he be blocked from editing at least one article? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia handing out passports - a suggestion

As former citizens of the now non-existent USSR, many residents of South Ossetia chose to exercise their right to Russian citizenship (citiation to the relevant 1991 Russian law provision needed) in order to obtain Russian social security benefits, which Georgia did not provide to the separatist region. (Lennie 00:00 GMT 12.08.08)

• Seems reasonable. Find an article on it in press. Although it is not for war article, it may be interesting for South Ossetia and Georgian-Ossetian conflict.--Garret Beaumain (talk) 23:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't there be info available on this from a Russian nationality law wikipedia article and it's references? I think Russian nationality law did (and maybe still does) allow anyone who claimed Soviet citizenship to apply for Russian citizenship. Not 100% sure on that though, but if that is the case it should mean that technically citizens from all the other ex-Soviet republics would have been eligible for Russian citizenship shortly after the collapse of the USSR.72.27.174.160 (talk) 23:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Since it is alleged that Russia "handed out" passports to create a pre-text for invading Georgia, the position should be clarified in this article. The issue of passports is so often quoted in the media that it should be given appropiate space here. There is a good reference to it in the interview with Foreign MInister of Russia Lavrov, which can be found here: http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/f68cd37b84711611c3256f6d00541094/f87a3fb7a7f669ebc32574a100262597?OpenDocument (Lennie, 00:36 GMT 12.08.08)

Introduction

Can we agree on one HERE?

From my side - the short-lived ceasefire was uniliteral Georgian (it should be noted), so the rebels technically couldn't broke it, as they were not binded by any agreements. (it's kinda like the later Georgian uniliteral ceasefires/ceasefire offers, all ignored by Russia.) Btw, Georgia said 10 Georgians civilians and peacekeepers were killed in the alleged initial rebel attack.[7] --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

When the source is CNN according to the article, why don't you look for the original article there? It would be a better reference.-- DanteRay (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Original website in Google cache only. But I guess it was also reported elsewhere. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Are there any prove that peace offers from Georgian side really taken place? Diplomatic missions? Official notes? Documents? Anything? 77.87.119.11 (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Like this? LONDON, Aug 11 (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Gordon Brown called on Russia on Monday to accept Georgia's offer of a ceasefire, saying Russian military action threatened regional stability and could damage Moscow's ties with other countries. (...) "The Georgian government has offered a ceasefire, which I urge the Russians to reciprocate without delay," he said. Answer by Russian warkeepers: "A cease-fire would not be a solution. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia handing out passports - a suggestion II

(I am sorry, I don't know how to add to the above section) - Since it is alleged that Russia "handed out" passports to create a pre-text for invading Georgia, the position should be clarified in this article. The issue of passports is so often quoted in the media that it should be given appropiate space here. There is a good reference to it in the interview with Foreign MInister of Russia Lavrov, which can be found here: http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/f68cd37b84711611c3256f6d00541094/f87a3fb7a7f669ebc32574a100262597?OpenDocument (Lennie, 00:36 GMT 12.08.08)

38 thousand people who live in South Ossetia have Russian internal passports and included in the voters lists of Russian Federation. According to propiska records in their passports, they live (sic!) in North Ossetia (not in the South Ossetia) as described here.Biophys (talk) 02:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

So, here is the trick. They can not give to these people a "propiska" outside the Russian Federation, according to the existing Russian laws (hence this is North Ossetia). But to live in a place not indicated in their passport (that is in South Ossetia) is also a violation of Russian administrative law. The entire combination with passports is illegal, although only people familiar with the Soviet/Russian Propiska system can realize that.Biophys (talk) 02:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you're wrong here. SO is not Russia and living abroad (having Russian citizenship and propiska) is not a crime according to Russian laws. Alæxis_¿question? 04:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference above to the transcript of the Echo of Moscow radio programme here is in fact a reference to a statement by an anonymous caller to the programme. It a dubious source, the claim must be verified. (Lennie 03:57 GMT 12.08.08)

Is there some Georgian visa law in place that is required of Russian citizens living in SO? How are they claiming to be citizens of a separate country from Georgia, yet have a huge proportion of the citizenry be passported from Russia and thus be considered Russians not Georgians? This in itself seems to be an invasion. Jmedinacorona (talk) 04:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI, many countries(for example Canada, Russia) allow _multiple_ citizenships, hence no visa requirement. I suggest you research Georgian law before making such bold statements. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 06:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A bit too long a Separate Article called Humanitarian impact of the 2008_South_Ossetia_war

A bit too long a Separate Article called Humanitarian impact of the 2008_South_Ossetia_war Could help cut the length down. ARBAY TALKies 23:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

August 12th, already?

It isn't quite August 12 yet, but there is information posted as of now under the Aug 12 heading, but then again, it depends on your time zone. Should the article's timeline use UTC dates? --Josephdurnal (talk) 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It's August 12th in Moscow/Georgian time. LokiiT (talk) 00:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, send a special envoy to inform them to use wikipedia time when they perform warfare.. --Leladax (talk) 00:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

what would be Wikipedia time anyways?--Jakezing (talk) 02:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In accordance with Stephen Colbert's concept of wikiality, Wikipedian time would be whatever time the most Wikipedia users agreed upon as indicated by what a Wikipedia article containing the subject stated. It would progress according to the article's description. Just wanted to be helpful and answer Jakezing's question. Christiangoth (talk) 04:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Start date

Which is it? The lede says that it began on 7 August. Then it says it began on 8 August. Is this a local time/UTC discrepancy? --Elliskev 23:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Rebels allegedly "broke" the small-level conflict ceasefire (which was Georgian uniliteral) on August 7 and on the same day Georgian artillery started firing back. On the early hours of August 8 the Georgians launched a barrage on the rebel capital, and at dawn the ground offensive. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. So we need a consensus on how to word that in the lede, because the way it is now isn't going to work. There are two contradictory statements. --Elliskev 00:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It was local 8th (just after midnight), Europe/US 7th. Ru magister (talk) 00:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

McCain top adviser was lobbying Georgia?

I'm not fond of watching over american elections, but it is somewhat related:

John McCain's top foreign-policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann, is a leading expert on U.S.-allied Georgia -- and was a paid lobbyist for the former Soviet republic until March, in the run-up to what has become a major battle between Georgia and Russia.

Democratic rival Barack Obama's presidential campaign was quick to try to paint Mr. Scheunemann's dual roles as a conflict of interest after Sen. McCain swiftly took Georgia's side in the dispute, and cited it as evidence that Sen. McCain is "ensconced in a lobbyist culture," as Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan told reporters over the weekend.

[8]

McCain may lose some points and Obama win some. Does it fit "International reaction", perhaps?

Captain Obvious, please be polite and don't simply remove what you don't like. I suppose it may be useful information for article and perhaps even more articles in Wikipedia. Garret Beaumain (talk) 00:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

About TimeLine

July 31 was ended "Immediate Response" NATO training at Vaziani Military Base (near Tbilisi), with 1000 US military specialists (from United States Army Europe, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marine Expeditionary Unit, 1st Battalion 121 Infantry Regiment Georgian National Guard (Atlanta, Georgia) and 5045th General Support Unit.) Ru magister (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Request Map of Frontlines

If it wouldn't be a problem - and I realise the situation is very fluid - could somebody please create a map showing the portions of Georgia under Russian occupation? Thanks! Canadian Bobby (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

If the frontline is too complicated to make, just the key bridges and roads under Russian control would give a good idea of how far inside Georgia they are. --Lgriot (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

One problem is that conflicting reports are being given by the Russian and Georgian sides regarding the extent of the Russian advance. At one point, a Georgian official made the risible claim that the Russians had occupied fully half of Georgian territory. Without any reliable information, it's hard to construct an accurate map. Begoner (talk) 01:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This might be a very large amount of work to successfully verify for a strategic map that could be out of date quickly. I would not oppose it if it could be done, but just keep the cost/benefit ratio in mind. Christiangoth (talk) 03:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Article SEVERELY outdated (also: international reaction and more)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#Number_of_Georgian_refugees for example. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"The European Union and the United States expressed a will to send a joint delegation to try to negotiate a cease-fire.[31" makes them all look completely neutral, while in fact the Western European countries and the United States condamned Russia in many, many often really sharp statements (which of course Russia all ignored, but it's another thing), which here are not represented even at International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war. They also took some actual if sometimes pactically symbolic action (besides stuff like Ukraine closing Crimea ports after Russian navy leaves or US airlifting Georgian soldiers back from Iraq, for example Poland gave Georgia the Polish president's own server to break the information blockade). But instead of the condemnation and the calls for Russia to AGREE to ceasefire, it's:

On August 10, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said the silence of Western nations during Georgia's initial incursion into South Ossetia "raises very serious questions about sincerity and their attitude towards our country," and also accused Western media of a reporting bias and lack of objectivity.[247] He ruled out peace talks with Georgia until it pulled back its forces beyond the borders of South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway territory of Georgia. Moscow has deployed warships off the Georgian coast to prevent the smuggling in of arms and other military supplies.[248]

in the section "Demands to end conflict" (about half of it). What the hell? Can it get any more biased?

Look at this:

U.S. President George W. Bush urged Russia on Monday to end its armed conflict with Georgia after Moscow's forces advanced deeper into the territory of its pro-Western neighbor, ignoring Western pleas to halt.

"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," Bush said.

"The Russian government must reverse the course that it appears to be on...," he added, urging Russia to agree to a ceasefire offer by Georgia.[9]

A difference? An actual "demand to end conflict" instead of (for whatever reason) the Russian whining about the western "bias and lack of objectivity" in the section titled "Demands to end conflict"?

The article is lacking so many things I won't even even try to list them all now. The intro should be rewritten and updated. The "combatant reaction" section should be SERIOUSLY cleaned up. Lots and lots of stuff.

If you don't want to get "into detail" why so much focus on Russia's POV and what they think about the third party actions, instead of writing on these actual actions? (Like "Five liberal leaders from central and eastern Europe -- Poland, Ukraine and the three Baltic states -- planned to visit Tbilisi in a show or support for Saakashvili." from the same article). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Did I mention most of this stuff here is also either badly written or appears to be just copy/pasted randomly? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ground battlefield in central and eastern Geogria

There are major ground battles with Russia and Geogria in central and eastern Geogria, why they are missing? Is it because the name of the war is "South Ossetia" and the battle far from South Ossetia are excluded?--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 01:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11georgia.html --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 01:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, most of the assertions in that article about Russian advances deeper into Georgian territory were put forth by Georgian officials and were not independently verified. Begoner (talk) 01:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

To answer Kittyhawk's question, it is not because the name of the war is "South Ossetia" and the events you describe are not located in South Ossetia. It is actually because both sides are at least probably (and I believe definitely) conducting information warfare including for the purpose of swaying international opinion. We therefore need to be cautious in adding information that is not verified personally (rather than through belligerent governments or militaries). I am sure that all unbiased Wikipedians including myself will add any new theaters of conflict between Russia and Georgia to this article, even if that conflict is in Australia, Narnia, or the moon. Christiangoth (talk) 01:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

All the reports about the Russians atacking/invading/bombarding Gori turned out to be false, according to this:

As the conflict has raged, Russia and Georgia are locked in an increasingly ferocious propaganda war. Mikheil Saakashvili, the president of Georgia, had claimed on Sunday that Gori was under “massive” bombardment as Russian troops attempted to take the town. It was, at best, a questionable claim — one of many made by both sides. The Daily Telegraph has maintained an almost continual presence in Gori since hostilities began and witnessed no such assault. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2542751/Georgia-Chaos-and-panic-as-people-flee-the-Russian-advance.html (Lennie 03:22 GMT 12.08.08)

That's referring to Sunday, and is in contradiction of this Guardian piece, which says Gori has "borne the brunt" of bombardments "ostensibly" meant for elsewhere. This report, again from the Guardian, quotes a named local journalist as saying that the Russians have occupied a road 2 km from the centre of Gori, causing the panic the Telegraph refers to in the rest of their report. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.28.225 (talk) 03:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I really hope that when I wake up tomorrow there is an undisputed answer about what's happening with Gori. And as long as I'm hoping, a bilateral, honored cease fire would be nice. Christiangoth (talk) 04:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Bad entry under August 10. Please help cite or remove.

Under August 10th actions, the following paragraph appears:

On August 10, at around 3:20 p.m. UTC, Georgia said that they ordered a ceasefire, and offered to start talks with Russia over an end to hostilities in South Ossetia.[138] Russia confirmed receiving the offer but said that "the Georgian side has not stopped military actions in South Ossetia, Georgian troops continued shelling."[139]

Source 138 is down, while 139 is this: [10] Unfortunately, a Google translation of 139 seems to directly contradict rather than support the information we have in this paragraph of the Wikipedia article. I do not have perfect trust in Google translation, so it may only be a translation issue. I would welcome other sources for this paragraph, and if several users all agree that no other sources are forthcoming and 139 is opposition to the paragraph then I suggest it be pulled. Christiangoth (talk) 01:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Source 139 confirms exactly what is said in the English sentence referencing it (sorry for the unpolished translation):

"The MID (Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs) confirms that a cease-fire note has been delivered to the Russian embassy in Tbilisi, but they point out the continued military operations by Tbilisi in Southern Ossetia. 'Such a note does indeed exist' a source from RF MoFA told Interfax on Sunday evening. At the same time, according to him 'the Georgian side did not cease military operations in Southern Ossetia, Georgian troops continue shelling'. Another source in Russian MoFA remarked also that the statements of the Georgian side about stopping the military operations and about withdrawal of their forces from the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict do not correspond to reality." 132.68.248.44 (talk) 02:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Russo-Georgian War

I think these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kodori_Gorge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_10_August_2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

Should all be comnined in one article Russo-Georgian War of 2008 or Russia-Georgia War of 2008.--SergeiXXX (talk) 20:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Typo under August 12th

Vitaly Churkin, Russian Representative in UN, declared to journalist that Russia will not accept the resolution on South Ossetia, prepared by France. It is not exactly sure when Churkin had made the statement - before or during negotiations over the resolution. The document proposes an immediate cease-fire, and restoring the territory of Georgia as it was before the begining of the confronations. [191]

Should be "confrontations" I guess. Maybe somebody who can edit the article might change that? OelnJa (talk) 01:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The heading for August 12th is inaccurate and misleading. there are no independent sources sited and, moreover, most of the section describes something else but the Georgian retaliation. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 01:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I copyedited that paragraph (changed "confronations" to conflict). Go ahead and list other stuff you see, anyone who can't edit due to semiprotection. Antandrus (talk) 01:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Also changed the heading, per Alsandro. It's bad practice to "characterise" a day's events before they've even finished happening (and arguably bad practise anyway, since doing so imposes an interpretive overview). Antandrus (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Separatists' dependence on Russia

The separatist government in South Ossetia is funded by Russia. Two-thirds of their budget is supplied by Moscow. Gazprom, which is state-controlled, has made investments worth hundreds of millions of dollars in South Ossetia. These facts need to be included in the background section to explain the relationship Russia has with the separatists.

Currently the article claims that South Ossetia is de facto independent and that Russia plays the role of peacekeeper. Both of these are contentious claims and are misleading without clarifying the dominant role Russia has in South Ossetia and how dependent the separatists are on Moscow.--Kelstonian (talk) 01:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the present introduction misrepresents the South Ossetian "government" as genuine leaders of a "national liberation movement". Actually, their leader Eduard Kokoity is a Russian mafia member, reportedly a representative of an organized crime gang from the St. Petersburg (if I remember correctly, he runs gambling business). His ministers are "retired" siloviks (probably members of the "active reserve") who came from Russia. Please see this source (It tells (Russian): Kokoity is a "криминал, о котором российские политологи еще давно писали, что это ставленник бандитской петербургской группировки. А министры его - это отставные чекисты, приехавшие из России."). This is a classical puppet state own by Russia.Biophys (talk) 02:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The South Ossetian "cabinet" include(d) several Russian bureaucrats and officers. They are:

Yuri Morozov - "prime minister"; former director of oil factory in Kursk, Russia;

Vasily Lunev - "defense minister"; former military commissar in Perm, Russia, and deputy commander of the troops in Siberia;

Anatoly Barankevich - "secretary of security council"; former deputy commissar of the Stavropol Krai, Russia;

Anatoly Ivanov - "chief of security" (KGB); functioning major-general Russian FSB, former chief of FSB of Mordovia, Russia;

Mikhail Mindzaev - "minister of internal affairs"; former chief of staff of the minister of internal affairs of North Ossetia, Russia.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 02:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you give me some references, please? Then it can be included in the article(s).Biophys (talk) 02:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

For example, this report by Yulia Latynina tells the following (a summary). The economy of South Ossetia is very simple. The Roki tunnel is controlled by the Russian "peacekeepers" and used to serve as a channel for illegal traffic of the oil and alcohol from North Caucasus. Now this is even more primitive. Barely 20 thousand people left now in the South Ossetia from the nominal 80 thousand. However they receive various "social benefits" from Russia destined for the 50 thousand people. Colonels who command the Russian peace keepers receive a part of those money as bribes. (Russian original text: Экономика Южной Осетии раньше была устроена очень просто. Есть Рокский тоннель, он охраняется российскими миротворцами. Через тоннель в Грузию идет паленная нефть от чеченских боевиков, Другой паленный спирт для североосетинских водочных заводов. Сейчас Грузия перекрыла поток контрабанды, и экономика устроена еще проще. В Южной Осетии осталось едва ли 20 тысяч жителей из бывших 80-ти. Пособия и пенсии они получают на 50. То есть раньше полковники зарабатывали на контрабанде, сейчас на пенсиях.).Biophys (talk) 03:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I often tend to agree with her however in this case she has made several statements that are rather questionable. For example she claimed that the population of SO is now 20 thousand. The most quoted number now is 70,000, according to other sources it is about 63,000 (see South_Ossetia#Demographics). Finally, even if SO economy is mostly depends on illegal traffic and there are several Russians in the republic's leadership (Kokoyty, Mindzayev and many others are Ossetians btw) it doesn't itself contradict that it's a "genuine national liberation movement". Alæxis_¿question? 04:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This is certainly a controversial subject. Thank you. I can see that you know the Caucasus affairs. I remember that SO was actually involved in illegal traffic of something else, probably arms. Do you have any references about that?Biophys (talk) 04:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Biophys, I tried to find Russian sources for the sake of neutrality. Here they are:

Morozov - http://www.ossetia.ru/news/ur-mor

Lunev - http://www.uralweb.ru/news/n328942.html

Barankevich - http://www.utro.ru/articles/2005/01/18/397255.shtml

Mindzaev - http://www.lenta.ru/lib/14190856/

--93.177.151.101 (talk) 03:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I will look at those. BTW, you are welcome to edit any other WP articles on related subjects that are not protected at the moment. You can also register as a regular user. Thank you.Biophys (talk) 04:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Belligerents as "successionists"?

Why are South Ossetia and Abkhazia labelled as "secessionists" under the belligerents heading in the infobox? They both have a constitution, their own elected president and parliament. Yes, they are unrecognized breakaway states but the fact remains: they are sovereign enough to run their own government. -Timberlax 01:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how "seceding" and "being able to run their own government" are incompatible or mutually exclusive. The Confederacy certainly did both. Antandrus (talk) 01:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Background

"The full independence of South Ossetia was supported by 99% of South Ossetia's civil population according to the South Ossetian independence referendum with 95.2% of the population participating in the referendum." - this sentence is misleading. It should be mentioned that 99% of South Ossetia's current ethnically Ossetian civil population supported it, but not the total, because ethnically Georgians (earlier mentioned comprising 20% of total pop.) have either boycotted it or were unable to vote. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That is because Geogaria is still de jure owner of those land. BTW referendum in Russian occupied area is famoous unreliable. Ask a question: Why don't North Ossetia break away from Russia? --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This is off the point. The sentence above in the background needs to be more specific, otherwise it is misleading. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 03:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we all saw how well that worked for The Chechans...--Jakezing (talk) 03:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not responding to Alsandro. Why edit/move my word here?--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 04:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Recommended reading on the historical background: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4498709.ece

Pls be careful when editing

When editing do not move one's text from one section to another. That will mislead the reader or create confusion--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 04:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Then don't put your edits above older ones.--Jakezing (talk) 04:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

the georgian president runned from the press

"He looked up and ran like crazy, his body guards chased him down and tackled him down and covered him with a vest "Bronijelet"."

http://www.1tv.ru/news/ (3 movie on the left)

I think that this is important to mention that Georgian President loose his minds.

1 or 2 russian jets flew over him. I've read reports that 1 of them was shot down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 (talk) 02:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any proof for your words ?

I'm pretty sure the president said it himself. I'm not gonna go look for a video of it. Also do you have anything to prove otherwise?

This is total BS--Jakezing (talk) 03:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

”Also Monday, Saakashvili had to run for cover during a visit to the town of Gori, where scores of people were killed in a Russian attack Saturday. The Associated Press reported that a member of his security team shouted, "Cover him!" as the Georgian president spoke to reporters next to his sport utility vehicle. Saakashvili was torn away by bodyguards and pushed to the ground. They piled extra flak jackets on top of him. Fearing an air raid, onlookers fled, looking skyward and screaming. No jets were seen or heard.” http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.president/index.html ( fixed link, sorry )Iphelgix (talk) 05:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian dead

It was agreed that Russian dead are 21+18=39 It was changed to 39, but changed back. Could it be changed to 39 again, if not, then why not?

UN and Russia

Apparently, the UN has accepted Russia has invaded Georgia Proper, can we put this in there? Attilavolciak07 (talk) 02:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, source pls.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 02:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Kittyhawk2. With a standing army of over 1 million i would think the international community would be very friggin carefull on how they worded something like that. A confirmed invasion would mean that the UN would have an obligation to take more action than they currently are. Even if we all realise that this is an invasion (not saying it is), the UN would dance around actually announcing it untill they had absolutely no other option.... I think we're all agreed this could get much messier than it already is.210.215.75.4 (talk) 03:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

standing army of one million, agaisnt, the world? makes perfect sence that russia would piss even more countries off with more invasion. Beleive me, russia isn't in the stronger position here. --Jakezing (talk) 03:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is the source http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/un_georgia_russia Attilavolciak07 (talk) 06:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It says that the UN agree that Russia have overstepped their original mandate as laid out by the CIS, and the Georgian delegate stated that it was an invasion. Nowhere did it say the UN called it an invasion although I see how you got there. It would seem that the UN are leaving a little wiggle room so that things can be settled down but that's my opinion.Andrew's Concience (talk) 06:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Please put into article that it was Russia who requested security council to hold emergency session on the 7th of August after Georgia started the attack, but before Russian troops were moved into the S.Ossetia. Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm Lucidlook (talk) 08:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of Georgian Troops recalled from Iraq

Hi, I noticed that thew stated number of recalled troops from Iraq is listed as 1,000 and lacks a citation. In fact, 2000 troops have finished being airlifted back by the U.S. as reported by the Pentagon (see Yahoo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_russia_georgia ) Just an fyi for anyone interested in updating the information. 207.7.179.62 (talk) 03:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what the correct number is; however, this would appear to be a contradictory source that confirms that 1000 troops have been withdrawn (Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL8127046), although the figure may have changed since Friday. Begoner (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This is merely outdated information. After hostilities commenced it was initially reported that Georgia was recalling half their contingent of troops stationed in Iraq. As of the 11th, US Air Force was assisting in transporting the entire contingent back to Georgia ( AP http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/08/ap_georgia_flyinghome_081008/ ). I'll see if I can dig up sources on the intial reports of 1k troops being recalled. Iphelgix (talk) 05:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources, what is right, which is wrong?

Ok, we have Russia And Georgia Giving Opposite Reports, and the majority of the news are following with georgia. But, are they right? We can't really trust even foreign news because either they are following the russian statement of the georgian statements, so, who are we using, really, the only people that can be trusted is anybody who has contacts on the inside, and officals not in the sides.

The question is, canm we trust the sources to be true?--Jakezing (talk) 03:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In situations like this I believe simply stating the reports of each side and identifying the origin of the reports would be sufficent. From what I've seen in other articles, sources conflict all the time. Just state what each side is reporting and be done with it. If it falls within the wiki-guidelines, no reason not to post both sides of the story. 207.7.179.62 (talk) 04:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but in those other articles, did it have to do with a war where one side says the other did something and the other side says it didn't? The question is, gori didnt fall, russia said that, but earler, georgia said it did, and the sources fklew to that, so we went on that, but that turned to not be true. So, we have a problem where neither source can be trusted to be true. showing both sides or sayiong "supposedly" dosn't work either--Jakezing (talk) 04:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, the best thing to do would be to stick to the guidelines as closely as possible. I think that any report by either side that gets into a more independent news source should be considerd OK to post. Since it's a current event, information is as likely to change as the wind. So, I guess if it makes it onto something like Yahoo, MSNBC, etc, it should be worth posting (from what I've seen, they list reports from both sides too). What we say here won't really stop others from posting conflicting reports anyway. 207.7.179.62 (talk) 04:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

We have to be on guard though. For example, the claim of a Russian thrust to Tbilisi in earnest seems Georgian propaganda through and through. Even US sources say their on-hands intelligence suggests it's a wholesale fabrication. And why should US sources cover up a full-scale Russian invasion? But the Georgian claims were passed on as truth in many media reports; funnily US media seem to be a bit more trustworthy than British and German ones. So we must cross-check the existing text against new bits of information. See the Battle of Tskhinvali discussion - a lot of claims, a lot of sources. But it all reeks a bit. Wikipedia SOP "cite first, think about truth later" fails utterly here.

For instance, I just fixed some stuff in the August 11 section: first, you get independent confirmation that Gori is devoid of any troops. Then you get blitzed like Poti with claims how the Russians are preparing for an assault on Tbilisi from the just-captured Gori, and that "Georgia has been cut in half" and so on. In the August 12 section, the fact that Gori has been vacated by Georgian troops gets confirmed again, but also that the Russians have not advanced either and that US intelligence data (and they have their guys on the ground, presumably even still in Gori) does not indicate such an invasion at all. So we end up with a block of text that is a propaganda broadcast pure and simple, all nicely verified with sources.

BTW, the Black Sea Fleet DOES have at least 2 Ropucha LSTs (Azov and one RopI) off the Abchazian coast (Al J had a video; good job guys, I love you too). So any claims of an amphibious assault on Poti cannot be dismissed out of hand. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 05:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I can say it's very calm now here in Tbilisi. And I didn't hear any planes during the night. Maybe there are less traffic than usual though. Carl Bildt will stay here the whole day and aren't scheduled to leave until tomorrow, so I don't think anything will happen here now. I heard he even wanted to go to Gori to check himself. The French were evacuated tonight and those Swedes who want to leave today for Yerevan. I'm staying though. Narking (talk) 05:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Numbers of "freelancers" seem to be increasing on both sides; I have an unconfirmed report on yet another new merc unit active in W Georgia since last evening. The Russians might be unwilling and the Georgians unable to restrain those as fight on the respective side. If things come to shambles, many mercs will flock to Tbilisi for egress (no government structure = no pay). Take care. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 05:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC

That's un-cited though. And I doubt many mercenary companies would keep any kind of reputation if they bailed at the fist sign of danger. More likeley the company has already been paid for having their opperatives in place for a set amount of time.

oops i forgot the squiggly thingsAndrew's Concience (talk) 05:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nah, that was just for Narking the Brave ;-) Maybe it's useful info down there, IONO. From what I hear, many mercs are half-mercs half-volunteers, like the guys who went to the Balkans en masse 10 years ago. More unconfirmed info below. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 08:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

External links

I noticed that the external links contain two websites relating to the Polish President. http://www.president.pl/x.node?id=479 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Republic_of_Poland . Isn't this confusing. What do these two Polish links have to be with the Georgian - South Ossetian conflict? werldwayd (talk) 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Might be an error, someone grabbing the wrong link. Polish and Baltic states gov'ts are the only committed allies of Saakashvali these days. And Kaczynski(sp?) is their spolesman. So there might be a press release or something. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 05:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's probably because the President of Poland is hosting some web content for Georgia due to their servers being unreliable. See the lower-right of the first link. -- SCZenz (talk) 05:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI, Polish government provided temporary domains to Georgian Govt websites, while there were hacked. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 05:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually as of now, the Georgian Presidency has a perfectly working site at http://www.president.gov.ge/ English version here: http://www.president.gov.ge/?l=E&m=0&sm=0 werldwayd (talk) 05:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Alsandro we have no proof that any cyberwarfare has taken place unless i'm mistaken. It could just be server overload. I know poland increased power allocation to georgia though so why not web support?Andrew's Concience (talk) 05:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I took the liberty of editing out the Polish website because if was generally for the president with only a hint of Georgia info. If need be that article should be sourced for something within this wikisite, but the whole Polish website as an external link is unnecessary. I also added the Georgian Presidency. And just for reference there already is an external links section in the archives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war/Archive_5#external_links Lihaas (talk) 06:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

GRU Spetsnaz

Please do not place Vostok, Zapad and Spetsnaz of 45th Regiment under any other unit except GRU itself. GRU is under direct commandment of Russian General Staff, it's submission order is not geographically based. Vostok and Zapad do not belong to North Caucasian Military district, nor to 58th Army or any other. 45th Regiment does not commanded by Moscow Military District commanders. Etc. Let's keep that in fact. Placing they under any other Russian units is big mistake. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 06:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

WSJ

Please add reference to a Wall Street Journal article by Saakashvili and its discussion in the Opinion Journal Forum there: http://forums.wsj.com/viewtopic.php?t=3644 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ACrush (talk • contribs) 06:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A reference for what? It's just his blog stating what we mostly know already made specifically from his point of view, with 4 comments from people who dissagree.Andrew's Concience (talk) 06:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

«Russian paramilitary troops» don't exist

«Russian paramilitary troops cross into Georgian territory» under photo with BRDM-2 on it is completely wrong. Russia don't have any paramilitary units. (06:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

What are Spetznaz if not paramilitary? Perhaps there is a misunderstanding on what a paramilitary unit is? If so do a search on "Paramilitaries" on this site and it should fill you in. Please don't think i'm being rude of confrontational, I'm merely trying to correct you.Andrew's Concience (talk) 07:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Spetsnaz of GRU (which is acting there) has military status. But Spetsnaz of Ministry of Internal Affairs (so called OMON - Otryad Militsii Osobogo Naznacheniya) is paramilitary, they have not military status, but there is no OMON in Georgia... So... :-) --Alexander Widefield (talk) 07:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

And as I know, according to Russian laws, paramilitaries, including Internal troops and Spetsnaz of Ministry of Internal Affairs, cannot be sent outside the territory of Russian Federation. Actually, there is nobody of Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs in South Ossetia, Abkhazia or Georgia. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 07:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it is some mistranslating, but in Russian «paramilitary units» means «just a bunch of armed men». No military oath and ranks but they can wear a uniform some sort. On the photo I can see ordinary army men, not special forces. They rear guard of petrol tankers column. And, by the way, it don't look like they crossing border of Georgia. Where is this picture taken? (Namenlos Ein (talk) 07:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Spetsnaz are not "paramilitary" (the "spets" kinda gives it away...). But look at the ORBAT, on the Russian side there are many hundreds of "irregulars" (that's probably what is meant here). Are these guys cossacks perchance? "Irregular troops fighting for Russia" or "Cossack/Armenian/whatnot volunteers fighting for Russia" and "moving south from North/South Ossetia" might be more accurate. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 07:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Irregulars and Paramilitaries are not the same. Paramilitaries is regular but without military status. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 08:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Air defense drills

Russia has begun carrying out air defense drills in southern Russia. [11] [12] JCDenton2052 (talk) 07:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of complete demolition of Tskhinvali are strongly overstated

This is a request to some more experienced Wiki editor: Please consider adding this information to this website, as I am not experienced. A Polish well known and respected war correspondent Wojciech Jagielski reached Tskhinvali two days ago, and, according to his report, the claims that Tskhinvali was totally devastated (which also appear on this Wiki website) are strongly overstated. In this article: http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,5574360,Rosja_wziela_Osetie.html Jagielski writes (in original): "Widziane ze wzgórz na przedmieściach Cchinwali nie sprawia wrażenia zrównanego z ziemią. Wysokie domy w śródmieściu są osmalone dymem z pożarów, ale stoją. Niskie domostwa rozrzucone wśród zielonych, dojrzewających sadów na niewysokich wzgórzach są nietknięte, choć całkowicie wymarłe." My amateur's translation of this passage follows: "Tskhinvali seen from the hills at its suburbs, does not yield impression to be pulled down to earth. High houses in the city center are charred by smoke from fires, but they are standing. Low homesteads scattered around green, ripening orchards on low-lying hills are untouched, though totally emptied." Please whoever speaks Polish, confirm the veracity of this passage and my translation. I believe that this witness' report is very important for the verification of claims of the Russian and Ossetian side about an alleged complete demolition of Tskhinvali. (129.206.32.243 (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

I wish I could translate this. I'd also like to see any more references on this, because as far as I know this is the first report denying the destruction of Tskhinvali that wasn't from a Georgian sourceAndrew's Concience (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Jagielski is now extensively reporting from areas between Tskhinvali and Gori. Unfortunately, this mainstream Polish newspaper is only in Polish, and I have no watch-dog possibilities. Please note, that Jagielski did not write that Tskhinvali is not touched at all - he wrote that the devastation does not seem to be severe. (129.206.32.243 (talk) 07:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Can we get a neutral-party source? It's certainly not impossible and certianly parts of the town are liable to be still intact (it's the Georgian airforce and not the Russian, Chinese or USAF after all...). But the photo some reporter snapped in what was said to be a hospital basement shortly post facto looked pretty grim. A Polish sorce cannot be taken as neutral at face value in this war. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I see already 2 claims from the Russian newspapers, certainly non-NPOV at face value, in a relevant passage in Wiki: "Tskhinvali is reported to be lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages have reportedly also been burnt to the ground as of August 9[207][208]". I don't see any logical obstacle against adding that there _also_ exist other reports which contradict this. This is the eyewitness' report in the mainstream newspaper - IMHO it's not meaningless (129.206.32.243 (talk) 08:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Verifiability of foreign-language sources: Wikipedia's core policy

A reminder of Wikipedia's policy on controversial foreign-language sources:

Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.

WP:V is a core policy and material which fails to comply may be deleted. --Folantin (talk) 07:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh... there will be so many footnotes... Article will be twice larger than it is. May be, one may post a direct link to Google Translate result for the url near the references? --Alexander Widefield (talk) 07:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. Google machine translation is notoriously inaccurate. Besides: "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors". Moreover, "editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages". --Folantin (talk) 07:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

There are at least 100 Russian sources used in this article. Attempting to delete them and all of the info they present would be unreasonable and unhelpful. If you find something questionable, either use one of many internet translating tools (they work well enough to get the gist of things), or bring it up on the talk page and see if you can get one of the presumably many Russian editors to help you out. LokiiT (talk) 07:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Google translation I can mark as B in most cases. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 08:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Google translation is mostly crap. I know because I've had to deal with machine-translated articles on this encyclopaedia. Verifiability is a core policy which is listed at the top of this talk page. Everybody who speaks English (this is Wikipedia.en) should be able to check on the reliability of controversial claims. --Folantin (talk) 08:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That policy that only english sources are valid sux totally. It should be enough that if there is disagreement about the content of the source and google translate (or others) isn't enough then one can ask what there is said from somebody who can read that language at the time. Dropping source because the language before there is any problems is totally insane. --Zache (talk) 08:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I second this. There are not enough English-language sources unfortunately. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 08:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian and Georgian sources can not be a reference through Google translate as it is not as reliable tool. These sources must be verified by Wikipedia editors who have strong capability in these languages. If not, we will have informations which is being closer rather than the real info. Wickfox (talk) 08:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Look at the top of the page. It clearly states Article policies: Neutral point of view, No original research, Verifiability. "There are not enough English-language sources". Not enough for what? There are plenty of English-language news sources covering this conflict. If you want to use foreign-language sources then you must comply with WP:V.--Folantin (talk) 08:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You haven't noticed that neither Russia nor Georgia (or any of neighbor either) countries aren't english speaking ones and those are kind of important news sources. There is other point of view than western=english ones too. --Zache (talk) 08:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You'd better start translating then. --Folantin (talk) 08:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Humanitarian impact section - split off into a new article?

The article size is 150kb now, and this section is quite big alone. I think we should leave the key points in there, and split the rest off to new articles, i.e. Humanitarian impact of the 2008 South Ossetia war in South Ossetia (not a good title name I know, but we can discuss that). D.M.N. (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Image:Wojna w gruzji war in georgia.gif

I will remove the map from the article. First of all, it's in Polish. Secondly, it's strongly POV. The title states "Russian aggression against Georgia" Óðinn (talk) 07:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

NPOV dispute: Propaganda War

Naurmacil removed my previous edit and explained: "remove war propaganda - a UK source claims they're fighting propaganda. What makes you think the UK source isn't propaganda itself? It's unlikely, but it's purely POV."

So what is not a propaganda? However, please notice that both sides accuses "the other side" of using propaganda. So it is clear that at least one side uses propaganda, then it is enough to talk about a propaganda war. In addition it was UK website of Reuters. Reuters is not a reliable source? Please answer. I decided to rewrite it a bit and added again.

Besides, it would be great to extend the 'information warfare' paragraph because today it is almost as important as real warfare. Kieraf (talk) 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

One more note to Propaganda Section. Georgian President Saakashvili is often appealing to Georgian in English, while the only official language in Georgia is Georgian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa (talk • contribs) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that correct? Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 08:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The immense opposition on Russia on this war is notable

E verybody is denouncing Russia in this war, worth mentioning the intro?? It's blatantly obvious that if we had to shun aynbody here, it's unarguably Russia. The rest of the world can see this, that's why they're denouncing Russia. Should we include the notable opposition to Russia in this war in the intro or no? Hellothar999 (talk) 04:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course not, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. International reactions should be mentioned in either an international reactions section or a separate article on international reactions in accordance with consensus. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

More stuff, partly sourced

Some info from http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881241938917173.html sources for the rest will likely pop up on some Web news in the near future. The general picture is one of calm in the center, heat in the west.

• Probably Russian (Marines?) force recon on Poti (both sides agree Russian troops are/were there). Landing force likely to have included 1 Ropucha II , at least 1 Ropucha I. The Bora class hovercraft is apparently also stationed off Abkhazia. The big squadron has returned to Novorossiysk, no? (I got the naval details from the Al J video here. Dunno where footage was taken. Compare Black Sea Fleet)
• Russian airborne troops probably control Senaki army base, 3 battalions airbornes + 2,500 "peacekeepers" present around SE Abkhazia frontierline.
• Russian capture of Zugdidi plausible but possibly still unconfirmed (I am not sure at all whether I have ever seen a robust source say so).
• Apparently Georgia has retracted claim of Russian taking of Gori in the night.
• What goes at Kareli? According to the Polish map, another frontiertown Russia might be interested to take to prevent "future Georgian troop concentrations" (or however they call it)
• Russia badmouths UNSC proposal, Kouchner due in Moscow later. Apparently Kremlin will inter alia make a Kosovo Redux case.
• Abkhazian "MoD" announces start of Kodori offensive. (Huh? They took their time, no?)

Battle seems to have been joined in Kodori Valley. Abkhazian/Russian jets bomb Georgian positions, artillery & infantry exchange voluminous fire Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 08:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Why don't we have an "International Reaction" from India? (Any witticisms from Caracas, while I'm asking?) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 08:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Russian airstrikes on Gori, or possibly mainly on Georgian artillery positions in the surroudings. "Some wounded civilians" in Gori apparently. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 08:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)