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Zero Mission prequel status

The majority of the discussion regarding Zero Mission's status as a prequel or a remake has been moved to Talk:Metroid: Zero Mission/prequel-remake.

The unbiased facts regarding this issue are listed in the section below, so the readers can form their own opinions. A poll will be added soon. --Poiuyt Man talk 23:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Summary: facts and evidence

The purpose of this section is to collect all the facts and direct quotes about the games discussed above. If you are going to add something here, make the statement clear and concise, and provide a source if possible (preferably a link). Do not add any opinions, assumptions, or conjectures; discuss those here. Other comments may be added to the Comments section below.

Once all the information is collected, a poll will be held, and this page will be posted on Wikipedia:Current surveys. Users will be able to review the information below for themselves and determine whether Zero Mission is a prequel, enhanced remake, or something else.

Zero Mission box description

The main description from the back of the box of Metroid: Zero Mission:

"THE FULL STORY OF SAMUS ARAN'S FIRST MISSION FINALLY UNFOLDS... The first Metroid game just scratched the surface of the cataclysmic events on planet Zebes, and at long last the rest of the tale has come to light. Experience the first of Samus's legendary adventures through all-new cut-scenes and action sequences as the bounty hunter races through the deeps toward her showdown with the leader of the Space Pirates. But will the end of Mother Brain really mean the end of the story...?"

Metroid and Zero Mission manual comparison

Excerpts from the manuals of Zero Mission and Metroid, to show similarities and differences:


M: In the year 2000 of history of the cosmos, representatives from the many different planets in the galaxy established a congress called the Galactic Federation, and an age of prosperity began.

ZM: In the year 2003 of the Cosmic Calendar, representatives from the many different planets in the galaxy established a congress called the Galactic Federation, and an age of prosperity began.


M: It is now year 20X5 of the history of the cosmos, and something terrible has happened.

ZM: In the year 20X5 of the Cosmic Calendar, a terrible incident occurred.


M: As a last resort, the Federation Police have decided on this strategy: to send a space hunter to penetrate the center of the fortress and destroy the Mother Brain. The space hunter chosen for this mission is Samus Aran. He is the greatest of all the space hunters and has completed numerous missions that everybody thought were absolutely impossible.

ZM: As a last resort, the Federation Police decided on a risky strategy: to send a lone space hunter to penetrate the pirate base and destroy the mechanical life-form that controlled the fortress and its defenses - the Mother Brain. The space hunter chosen for this mission was Samus Aran. Considered the greatest of all the bounty hunters, Samus had successfully completed numerous missions that others had thought impossible. Despite her accomplishments, much of Samus's true identity remained wrapped in mystery.


M: Samus has now succeeded in penatrazing Zebes. But time is running out. Will he be able to destroy the Metroid and save the galaxy?

ZM: Alone, Samus Aran successfully landed on the surface of Zebes, which was, in fact, the planet where Samus was raised as a child. Burying all memories of the planet, Samus agreed to carry out this mission and face the traps of the Mother Brain. But the question remained: could Samus Aran truly complete this task and return peace and order to the galaxy?

Nintendo.com's description of Zero Mission's prologue

The prologue of Zero Mission as told by Nintendo.com is as follows. "Sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a deadly alien species, Samus meets her match in the form of the mysterious Metroids -- energy-sapping creatures that emerge from an oversized cerebrum beneath the planet's surface. Samus isn't the only traveler searching for the Metroids. A band of Space Pirates has touched down to extract the curious creatures and use them as weapons. Samus must thwart the pirates, but they are wily and will prove to be more trouble than Samus expects."

Nintendo's official Zero Mission commercial

http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/8fc2b41a-8547-4c17-88cd-cfc5c7ae81a2.mov

It states, "...Zero Mission, her first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter." Metroid's manual states that numerous missions have come before Metroid, and in these missions Samus was considered a bounty hunter. Therefore Metroid is not Samus' first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter.

Tourian's appearance

The appearance of Mother Brain's destroyed chamber in Zero Mission consists mostly of rubble and some acid with broken Zeebetite columns. In Super Metroid, which comes chronologically after Zero Mission and/or Metroid, the chamber consists mainly of corroded machinery. SM also differs in that it has horizontal platforms and an extra Zeebetite (the broken vertical column). See these images (ZM on left, SM on right):

The next image is of Zero Mission's Tourian and Super Metroid's Tourian at the location just beneath Mother Brain's pod. Zero Mission is on the left, Super Metroid is on the right. Zero Mission's area is not damaged, while Super Metroid's is.

In Super Metroid, the player finds Tourian rebuilt in a new location. According to the manual:

"Tourian - Tourian is the control center for the Zebesian space pirates and the Mother Brain. The original Tourian was located just below the surface. After Samus Aran annihilated the forces of Zebes the first time, this new Tourian was built in a more secure area."

The reference to the current control center is the working Tourian that Samus must infiltrate in order to destroy Mother Brain. The original Tourian is in reference to the damaged Tourian seen above.


When comparing Tourian from Metroid with the ruins of Tourian in Super Metroid, the fifth zeebetite is present:

However, there is another difference in room structure:

This image shows Tourian before the explosion.

This image shows Tourian after the explosion.

In Super Metroid, the space between the first and second Zeebetite, as well as the platform, is shorter. The door also rests on a solid ledge rather than a platform, and is lower. The middle turrets are missing, and the Zeebetites and platforms are also much closer to the ground. The proportions of the room are significantly off when the pictures are adjusted to give Samus the same height.

The Metroid Tourian was displayed on the Nintendo Entertainment System, an 8-bit system. Super Metroid's depiction of that Tourian was displayed on the Super Nintendo Entertainment System, a 16-bit system. The major difference between the two depictions of Tourian is that the first is before an explosion and the second is after an explosion. Exactly what objects in the room were and were not damaged or destroyed is unknown, as the player does not get to see what the explosion did to this room and others after escaping.

Samus' Memory of Metroid

In Super Metroid, Samus recalls her battle with Mother Brain in Metroid, then recalls her discovery of the last Metroid on SR388 in Metroid II. In this introduction sequence of Super Metroid images of these events are shown. The following is the memory that Samus recalls of her battle with Mother Brain in Metroid.

The Tourian shown in Zero Mission does not match this memory.

There is no Zeebetite to use as a platform. There is no long platform on the right of the screen.

The Tourian in Metroid does match this memory.

Not only is Zero Mission's Tourian different after the explosion, but it is also different before the explosion.

Location of Tourian and the Starting Location

Note to readers: this section is best interpreted if you have played at least some of the games.

A summary of Zebes' layout is shown on the Zero Mission map screen:

It shows Tourian underneath the left side of Crateria. It also shows Brinstar to the right of Tourian, and close to Crateria.

In order for the individual areas of Zero Mission to be connected together on a two-dimensional plane, then one of two possibilities exist: the areas intersect with each other, or the elevators intersect with other areas, and are not strictly vertical. The latter possibility is shown here:

However, the areas in this example are placed much further apart than the map summary above would suggest.

Unlike Metroid and Super Metroid, there is no direct evidence for the length of the elevators in Zero Mission.

Depicting a three-dimensional world using a two-dimensional map is not unheard of in the Metroid series — Super Metroid has a long transport tube that travels behind several rooms, and the map summary of Metroid Fusion shows that the six sectors in the game are placed in a rough circle around the central elevator. Metroid II: Return of Samus also has several areas that would overlap if the game existed strictly in two dimensions.


Metroid does not have a Crateria, but Brinstar is still located to the right of and partially beneath Tourian:

According to the Super Metroid map, old Tourian is still underneath the left side of Crateria:

Also, in Super Metroid, the room to the right of Mother Brain is directly above the starting location from Metroid / Zero Mission, and requires a long elevator ride:

This is inconsistent with Metroid, which has the starting location to the left of where the elevator would connect. It is also quite close to Tourian, not as far as SM's elevator ride makes it out to be:

It is also inconsistent with Zero Mission; going up from the starting location does not lead to Mother Brain's room:

The room to the right of Mother Brain originally did not have an elevator in either Metroid nor Zero Mission but does in Super Metroid — a game which arguably takes place after both Metroid and Zero Mission.

Metroid Chronicles

Nintendo has created a Metroid Prime 2: Echoes bonus disc that is available from one of three sources: the Metroid Prime re-release bundle, by registering 5 GameCube games online, or as an option when you subscribe to Nintendo Power. The disc includes a playable demo of the game, as well as a "Metroid Chronicles" feature that arranges the games (those that had been released at the time, at least) in a historical timeline. The ordering is as follows:

  • Metroid
  • Metroid: Zero Mission
  • Metroid Prime
  • Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
  • Metroid II: the Return Of Samus
  • Super Metroid
  • Metroid Fusion

Additionally, there is a short text summary that accompanies each game:

Metroid:

Nintendo Entertainment System ( NES ) Release Date: 1989
"A research vessel dispatched by the galactic federation discovers and captures a strange life-form called a "Metroid" on the planet SR-388. However, on its way back to federation HQ, the research vessel is attacked by Space Pirates, who steal the Metroid. Once they discover the Metroid's ability to multiply through beta-ray exposure, the Space Pirates conspire to make use of the Metroids in their plot to take over the universe. To stop them, Samus lands on the planet Zebes and single-handedly destroys their underground base — and their leader Mother Brain — after a series of intense battles."

Zero Mission:

Game Boy Advance ( GBA ) Release Date: February 2004
"In an expanded look at Samus' first mission to Zebes, the bounty hunter heads to Zebes to wipe out the Space Pirate threat. However, this story doesn't end after Samus destroys the Mother Brain — As she escapes the planet, her ship is shot down by Space Pirates and she crash lands on the surface of Zebes, near where the Space Pirate Mother Ship has landed. Having lost her power-suit in the crash, Samus must infiltrate the Space Pirate ship and fight her way off the planet."

Super Metroid:

Super Nintendo ( SNES ) Release Date: 1994
"While the base on planet Zebes is being reconstructed by a group of Space Pirates who survived the assault by Samus, Ridley attacks the Space Science Academy and abducts the baby Metroid, the only one left in the universe. Congregating at their rebuilt base on Zebes, the Space Pirates once again concoct a plot to use Metroids as biological weapons. To retrieve the Metroid and stop the Space Pirates' evil plans, Samus once again flies to the planet Zebes. There, Samus destroys Mother Brain — thanks to the sacrifice of the baby Metroid's life — and escapes just as planet Zebes is utterly destroyed by the Space Pirates' self-destruct program."

Japanese website timeline

In the History section of the Japanese website for Zero Mission (displayed in Macromedia Flash), what is presumably a timeline shows the Metroid games arranged in this order:

  • Metroid
  • Metroid Prime
  • Metroid II: Return of Samus
  • Super Metroid
  • Metroid Fusion

After the initial animation for the timeline is done, another point for Zero Mission splits off from the Metroid point, and places itself slightly after Metroid.

Each game can be clicked for an accompanying description, but the text has not been translated.

Director roundtable interview

Various quotes from an official Nintendo Q&A session with Yoshio Sakamoto, the director of Metroid: Zero Mission.


"Sakamoto: So, to answer the question on why Zero Mission is based on the NES version of Metroid: our basic development concept was that we wanted to return to the roots of Metroid gameplay. I'm sure that you're aware that Metroid Fusion was a different style of game from all the Metroid titles up until then. We wanted to show people who had never played a Metroid game prior to Metroid Fusion, the roots of the Metroid franchise, that this is what Metroid is, this is the style of gameplay that Metroid sprang from...at the same time, retell the story of Samus' original mission."


"Q: In your mind, what has been the greatest challenge in the development of Zero Mission, and how was it overcome?"

"Sakamoto: Any time you do a remake there's always the possibility that it could be taken negatively as a mere port other than a truly remade game. One of our biggest challenge was to add enough elements to make the game feel like something that's new, while not straying far from the original Metroid, to lose the meaning of what we were trying to do. We spent a lot of time balancing those two elements in addition to actually working in elements that we hadn't seen before in a Metroid game, finding a way to implement them in Zero Mission...and then finding a way to balance this gameplay and make it into something people would enjoy."


"Q: Besides the extra adventure beyond Mother Brain, what would you say are the major differences between Zero Mission and the original NES game?"

"Sakamoto: We've added new enemies, new items, and new puzzles to the game. So if we were to say it was a completely new game we wouldn't be entirely off-base. Obviously we used the original Metroid as the base for Zero Mission, and the concept was to take that original gameplay and rework it into something that felt fresh and new, while still keeping elements from the original game that people would be familiar with."


"Q. What are you most pleased with in the game now that it's drawn to a close?"

"Sakamoto: We had a lot of challenges to face, but the biggest one for me was finding a way to implement this new style of gameplay at the end of the game. We spent a lot of time working on that, and I feel that it was something that turned out to be very good, and something new that feels like Metroid. So I'm glad we were able to get that into the game, in a form that we felt was complete and well done."


"Q. What challenges did you face in reworking or reinventing a new storyline for the character in Zero Mission?

"Sakamoto: I wouldn't necessarily call it a remaking of the backstory. We've taken this opportunity to explore the backstory a little bit more. With Metroid Zero Mission not using text-based messaging or language in the game, we've used more visual cinematics to express the story through her recollections or memory. Through that, we've created a story that is open to interpretation to the player, and as people play I think they'll interpret Samus' past based on what they take on those cinematics. So I think in a way it's expanding on the story at the same time retaining some of the mystery of it."

Nintendo's Letter

E-mail correspondence with customer service from Nintendo.com follows:

Nsider Member: Hello. We at NSider are having a debate on whether or not Metroid Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid 1 (located here [you must skim through the entire thread to see what we are talking of]), which has lasted for 632 posts, translating into 64 pages of sensless bickering. Also, another thread, which was locked, contained 188 posts, or 19 pages. Overall, this 73 page debate is getting quite old, if you ask us.
So, I will ask one final time before I resort to sending snail mail to the main division of Nintendo. I hope that whoever reads this resorts to asking someone who worked on the American localization of Zero Mission or even someone from the Japanese team that worked on it.
To my question: Is Metroid Zero Mission a remake of Metroid 1, or is it a brand new adventure? Please do not give me the sales pitch, as I have head it three times before. I am looking for a straight answer at whehter or not Zero Mission is indeed a remake or brand new game. There can be no inbetween, for this debate will continue if there is no straight answer. It is either "yes, it's a remake", or "no, it is not a remake". We debatees will not settle for anything less.
Thank you for your time, and I pray you will give us a straight answer.


Reply:


Hello and thank you for contacting Nintendo,
As we told you in our previous email, while there are a lot of similarities between Metroid 1 and Metroid: Zero Mission, and the world is the same one used in the original, there are quite a few new things added. So yes, it is like the first one, but I would also have to say no, as new enemies and other surprises have been added.
I can certainly understand your curiosity, but the best way to answer the questions you have is to either play the game, and make the comparison yourself, or go to www.nintendo.com and check out the information there.
I hope this is helpful.
Thanks for your email!
Nintendo of America Inc.
Sharon Matheny

Nintendo's Letter 2

This is a follow-up e-mail asking for more clarification than simply "is it a remake or not". Most of the text is from the Nintendo site, but Mr. Chandler adds an actual response at the bottom.

Note that this correspondence was started by Poiuyt Man, a Wikipedia editor, and it is not documented anywhere else. As such, it may be considered original research, which would make it invalid as a cited source within the article. However, it is about as verifiable as the above e-mail, as one would need to contact Sharon Matheny or Mike Chandler to check the veracity of the statements.

Attn: Sharon Matheny (if possible)
A previous e-mail from a NSider forum member asked, "Is Metroid Zero Mission a remake of Metroid 1, or is it a brand new adventure?", to which you responded, "yes, it is like the first one, but I would also have to say no, as new enemies and other surprises have been added."
Sorry to bug you again about it, but I'm asking for a little clarification. I've provided questions that are more specific.
Is the story depicted in Zero Mission, up until Samus destroys Mother Brain, the same story depicted in the original Metroid? More specifically, do these games occupy the same spot on the Metroid timeline? Or does Zero Mission have a different place on the timeline, prior to or after Metroid?
Thanks,
Jason McCay


Reply:


Hi,
The following is a description of Metroid: Zero Mission:
Metroid: Zero Mission begins right where the original Metroid game opened, as interstellar bounty hunter Samus Aran infiltrates Mother Brain's massive complex below the surface of planet Zebes. It becomes immediately obvious, however, that this adventure is very different from the first mission: dark corners teem with unfamiliar enemies, a maze of new paths lead into the unknown, and fresh puzzles lie unsolved. Samus herself is equipped with all-new techniques to face the dangers that lurk in the depths of Zebes, and she will need all the powers at her disposal if she hopes to survive. Metroids, Space Pirates, and Mother Brain herself await in the depths of the planet, but their evil designs are just a part of a deeper story that can only now be told...
She's battled baddies on nearly every Nintendo system, cleaned house in the Super Smash Bros. series and recently blasted off for heroic adventures on the GCN (Metroid Prime) and the GBA (Metroid Fusion). This February, Samus Aran will return to her roots and relive the story that started it all -- revealing for the first time full details of her meeting with the Metroids. The plotline will be familiar to longtime fans of the Metroid series, but the challenges are new, the power-ups are plentiful (taken from several games in the series) and the graphics and sound are supercharged. Plus, if you thought that the original Metroid had a surprise ending, wait until you get past the Mother Brain in Metroid: Zero Mission. A new twist provides a deeper adventure than ever before.
Sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a deadly alien species, Samus meets her match in the form of the mysterious Metroids -- energy-sapping creatures that emerge from an oversized cerebrum beneath the planet's surface. Samus isn't the only traveler searching for the Metroids. A band of Space Pirates has touched down to extract the curious creatures and use them as weapons. Samus must thwart the pirates, but they are wily and will prove to be more trouble than Samus expects.
In the long-standing Metroid tradition, Zero Mission is a scavenger hunt for dozens of items -- missiles, energy tanks and tools -- that give you the ability to explore wider and deeper. Every time you uncover a device, you'll remember former dead ends that you can finally overcome. The endless chain of breakthroughs and discoveries causes the world to continue to grow and form.
The Metroids are only one of the many menacing species that lurk below the surface. The Zebesian underground overflows with creatures that aim to keep you from invading their turf. Metroid classics Kraid and Ridley hold fort in dark corners, towering over the comparatively small bounty hunter. The planet holds plenty of new threats, too, such as the lava-dwelling serpent that acts as the first line of defense in Kraid's lair and the armored larvae that lurk in the deepest sections of Norfair. The Space Pirates are no pushovers either, and you won't always have the Power Suit to protect you.
Essentially, it's a rewrite of the original story for the millions of fans who enjoyed the original game.
Nintendo of America Inc.
Mike Chandler

Nintendo Letter 3

(My question) Hello Nintendo, I am an N-Sider member and I have a very important question regarding Metroid Zero Mission. In the official Metroid Forum there is a very heated debate going on regarding Zero Mission. A lot of substantial evidence from Zero Mission including maps and text has been posted and all of this evidence indicates that Zero Mission is meant to take place before the original NES Metroid as a prequel, and was not intended to be a remake of the NES Metroid. For example, the maps show that Zero Mission's Tourian is in the wrong location and looks very different from the one in Super Metroid, which Metroid is supposed to lead into, thus making Super Metroid inconsistent if Zero Mission replaces Metroid in the timeline. Also, the Zero Mission box says, "The full story of Samus Aran's first mission finally unfolds..." while the Metroid manual states that Samus had completed missions before that which others thought to be completely impossible, which implies that Zero Mission is the first mission and that Metroid is a separate mission that takes place much later. Another thing pointed out is that Yoshio Sakamoto, the director of Zero Mission, said that Zero Mission was only a remaking of Metroid's gameplay, not its storyline or the game itself. All of this new evidence disproves the long accepted theory of it being a remake of Metroid. So I was hoping that someone at Nintendo who knows for a fact what place Zero Mission has in the Metroid timeline, or someone that can contact those who made the game, could answer the following question. Does Metroid: Zero Mission take place before the NES Metroid as a prequel, or is it a remake of the NES Metroid? Please do not give the generic response by quoting the Nintendo.com review of the game, because that will not help, as we have already gone over it and have found no answers to our question within it. This is very urgent, so please answer this question, and please literally state in your reply if it is a prequel or a remake, and please be sure to give a clear answer as the game being one or the other. Thank you very much in advance for your help. -Dai Grepher

(Nintendo's answer) Message(#6851-000455-2451\4552451)

Hello,

Thank you for your e-mail. I know you want a definitive answer, but unfortunately we just don't have this information. You'll need to continue debating this in the forums... Our standard response to questions like this, although I know you were hoping for more, is below.

Many of the details about our games remain mysteries. Perhaps some of them will be solved by information revealed on our web site (www.nintendo.com) or in future games or upcoming issues of Nintendo Power. Some answers, however, are left to the active imaginations of our game players.

Sincerely,

Nintendo of America Inc. John Elsberry

Nintendo Power Super Metroid comic

A comic series based on the events of Super Metroid was published in volumes 57-61 of Nintendo Power. The story is loosely based off the game, with many elements being exclusive to the comic.

In the comic, as in the game, Samus finds Ridley in the Space Colony, clutching the Metroid larva. The following dialogue then takes place:

Ridley: It's been a long time!

Samus: Not long enough!

Ridley: The Mother Brain will reward me handsomely for this prize!

Samus: You won't get away with this!

Ridley: You may have beaten us once... but never again!

Addendum: The comic book may no longer be canon, because according to the timelines presented above, Ridley and the Space Pirates have encountered Samus at least twice before the events of Super Metroid. She defeated them in Metroid, Metroid: Zero Mission, and Metroid Prime.


Comments

I'm not done adding everything yet, I'll finish it in a a few hours. --Poiuyt Man talk 23:38, 15 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: I will add my comments later today. However, a poll should not be used to determine the correct timeline in this debate. As soon as it is posted those at VGF will rally together and vote it a remake without regarding any of the proof that shows otherwise, while those that have agreed with me and also initially believed the game to be a prequel will have no knowledge of this poll, thus making it a one sided decision. I say that we present this issue to a few non-partisan administrators and members of this website that have no stance on the issue. That way the issue will not go either way due to biased opinions.Dai Grepher 21:10, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think excluding groups of people is the way to go. Those VGF members are Metroid fans, after all. I seem to be on VGF's good side, so I'd like to politely ask them, if they wish to vote, to cast aside all previous notions of Dai Grepher and the above situation, and review all the evidence above with a neutral point of view.
Wikipedia:Current surveys should expose it to some administrators, but keep in mind that anyone who doesn't know anything about Metroid or video games in general probably won't care enough to vote. I'll post it on Talk:Metroid series also, as that should attract editors of the various Metroid articles. --Poiuyt Man talk 00:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: The only reason that you are on VGF's good side is because you think Zero Mission is a remake and because you disagree with me. If you believed that it was a prequel, or not a remake, then those at VGF would call you an idiot, a sheep, or some other insult, as they have done to others that have stated their belief of it being a prequel. They are fans to their own ideas first, and fans to the Metroid series second. Therefore they, nor we, should have a vote. This should be presented to an intelligent jury of non-partisan people whose only goal is to have correct information posted on Wikipedia and make it a more perfect encyclopedia. Those that have shown a bitter and hatful attitude toward me on VGF have proven themselves to be underhanded and decietful by following me to other forums just to insult me even more and discredit my presentation. It is as if they have nothing better to do but bash me and stubbornly fight the facts that I have presented. What is stopping them from registaring multiple accounts just to vote against me here?Dai Grepher 05:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Current surveys: "The results of a survey are not binding, and may be subject to interpretation". Making sock puppet accounts for voting is against Wikipedia policy, and is easy to detect. If you have 50 votes against you from user accounts that were just created, it will be apparent, and those votes will be discredited.
If you don't mind, I'm going to move everything above the Summary section to Talk:Metroid Zero Mission/prequel-remake, and make a prominent link to it at the top of the talk page. It will make sure that voting users won't consider the volumes of discussion to be part of this vote (although they can freely browse it if they wish). --Poiuyt Man talk 23:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please, I'm trying to have the above summary section contain only direct material from the game and Nintendo sources — presenting discrepancies is alright, but providing possible explanations of these discrepancies is not. Those can be discussed on the new talk page. I've removed the following from the above Tourian/Starting Location section:

  • "The actual Zero Mission map cannot be put together in 2D without overlapping areas" and "The Zero Mission areas can be put together without intersection of the map areas. The only parts that will intersect are elevators"
    • Replaced with a better summary that covers both points.
  • "In any case, the Tourian in Zero Mission cannot be placed where it is seen in Metroid because the areas will intersect."
    • This assumes that the areas cannot intersect or be located behind or in front of each other in two dimensions.
  • "However, this overlapping region exists only if the areas that are depicted in the game strictly exist within two dimensions..."
    • Counter-paragraph to the above is just speculation explaining Zero Mission's overlap. Replaced with examples of 3D space in other Metroid games.
  • "However, the Brinstar of Super Metroid is an area that has not yet been discovered... which is called Brinstar as well. Brinstar did not move or switch locations, just to clarify."
    • No evidence for this whatsoever. I also have no direct evidence that Brinstar moved. However, there is evidence that Brinstar is further beneath the planet's surface than it is in Metroid or Zero Mission, so that stays.
  • "That path would actually lead past the Mother Brain's room, but that room is not between Crateria and Brinstar anyway."
    • Since there is no official layout for the exact areas in Zero Mission, this statement is not fact.
  • "Logic would deem it necessary that at least some change must have taken place to the environment, perhaps at the hands of the Space Pirates"
    • It's alright to point out that there are no elevators in Metroid or Zero Mission, but providing a possible explanation will prompt a counter-explanation, which will just turn this into another long-winded argument. --Poiuyt Man talk 13:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, Poiuytman. I think I'm still in the mode of having a debate rather than just presenting facts.  ;) The Missing Link 16:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the new debate that was forming on this page to a new section on Talk:Metroid: Zero Mission/prequel-remake. --Poiuyt Man talk 08:04, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


As a compromise, while this poll is running, I've revised the opening paragraph and some other text in the article so it doesn't outright state Zero Mission to be a remake. However, it does quote Sakamoto in the intro, so the readers can decide for themselves. I actually wouldn't mind leaving it like this; it states the facts, and that's all that's really needed. --Poiuyt Man talk 16:48, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Poll

This poll is to form a consensus on the issue of whether Metroid: Zero Mission should be considered a re-telling/remake or a prequel of Metroid. Currently, the article states it as an enhanced remake. Currently, the article is ambiguous on the subject.

Before voting, please read the above section, Summary: facts and evidence. Please sign under the appropriate section with four tildes (~~~~), along with any comments you wish to include. --Poiuyt Man talk 05:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


  • Metroid: Zero Mission is a re-telling of Metroid's story; the games overlap on the timeline. There is enough evidence to state this as a fact in the article.
  1. Poiuyt Man talk 05:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  2. A Link to the Past 05:57, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
  3. The Missing Link 06:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Nifboy 06:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Andre (talk) 16:53, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
  6. Gbeeker 17:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Thunderbrand 22:24, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
  8. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:07, 2005 July 30 (UTC)
  9. Glyph Phoenix 19:09, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  10. jglc | t | c 14:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Agent CH 21:06:35, 2005-08-05 (UTC)
  12. demeteloaf 19:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  13. ~GMH 08:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  14. K1Bond007 19:46, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
  15. KramarDanIkabu 20:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Dr.P. 23:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
  17. FlooK 00:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


  • Metroid: Zero Mission is a prequel of Metroid, occuring before it on the timeline. There is enough evidence to state this as a fact in the article.


  • There is not enough evidence to state either of the two possibilities as fact. A more ambiguous statement should be used in the article. The article should remain ambiguous on the subject.

Zero Mission Developer

Wikipedia lists Intelligent Systems as being a developer. Wikipedia is wrong about yet another fact. An N-Sider member E-mailed Intelligent Systems about making Zero Mission and its status as a remake or prequel. They replied: "Dear Metroid Fan, Thank you very much for contacting INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS. First of all, INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS did not develop Metroid Zero Mission. Secondly, It is own by the Nintendo, therefore we can not answer any question directly from fans like you.

Best way is to keep try contacting Nintendo of America for your answer.

Thank you WebMaster" Dai Grepher 15:57, 4 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That would be because Nintendo R&D1 (the current division thereof made M:ZM) redirects to IS (formerly R&D1). Some well-meaning but misinformed person bypassed the redirect. Nifboy 16:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have since resolved the issue (IGN agrees) by creating a stub for R&D1 (above). Nifboy 17:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
IGN lists Zero Mission's developer as Nintendo R&D1[1][2], which merged into EAD earlier this year. Intelligent Systems was apparently a breakaway group that formed in 1986. So yes, the Zero Mission developer listed was wrong. The Intelligent Systems article also needs to be fixed to clarify that it was not formerly known as R&D1, since R&D1 co-existed with Intelligent Systems for 18 years. --Poiuyt Man talk 04:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Pirate Ship/Wrecked Ship

I ran this page through various automatic online translators, and it seems that under question 2, Sakamoto says that the Wrecked Ship from Super Metroid and the Pirate Mothership from Zero Mission are not the same, as many people have speculated. However, automated Japanese-to-English has very uneven results, so there might just be an error in translation. If anyone knows someone who reads and comprehends Japanese well, it'd be helpful. --Poiuyt Man talk 11:04, 6 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Poiuytman, your speculation is correct. After commenting on a type of two-legged robot that appears in ZM as well as Super Metroid, Sakamoto says 「しかし、マザーシップとスーパーメトロイドの難破船は別物という設定です。」: "But the situation (settei: setting, scenario) is that the Mother Ship is different from the Wrecked Ship." Heian-794 18:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: That is because Zero Mission did not "retcon" or remake anything. Dai Grepher 14:50, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As long as you ignore fact. -- A Link to the Past 14:52, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Dai and Link, I'm not commenting on the correctness of any of the game's theories, only that Poiuytman is correct in interpreting Sakamoto's comments that way. Heian-794 17:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The article SHOULD NOT be ambiguous

Dai Grepher is the only dissenter; it's a fact that Zero Mission is a remake. Andre (talk) 20:34, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

As long as we have one dissenter the problem is not solved. A similar problem existed on the Revenge of the Sith page and the page had to be protected until I found a solution that satisfied both parties. However, this does not have such an easy solution it appears. KramarDanIkabu 21:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
He could drag it out forever then, and this page would be protected forever. He has failed to provide evidence, and it's a million vs. 1. -- A Link to the Past 21:07, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Until the matter is settled, I have placed a dispute marker on the article. ~ Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:30, 2005 August 11 (UTC)
So what then is our next step, Andre? The Missing Link 00:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here's my plan.

1. CONTACT Yoshio Sakamoto. Write him a snail mail letter explaining a simplified version of the situation, perhaps on Wikimedia Foundation letterhead. We'll write the letter at Talk:Metroid: Zero Mission/Letter (because we can't put it in the article namespace) and I'll take care of the sending/letterhead voodoo. If you can find the address, great, otherwise, I'll pull some strings and find it myself.

2. ORGANIZE all the evidence for both sides in a short list. You can put it at Talk:Metroid: Zero Mission/Evidence. This will come into play later, believe me.

3. MEANWHILE change the page to reflect the view that directly contradicts Dai Grepher's. There is a clear consensus as judging by the poll, so it's fair to do this. I'm confident that Sakamoto's letter will support us in this, so it won't be for long. If Grepher reverts, which he has no right to, we will revert him back until he breaks the 3RR and then I will block him. Make sure you guys don't, or I'll have to block you as well.

Andre (talk) 04:52, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. The letter should be worded as precisely as possible, and should avoid words such as "remake", which may be interpreted multiple ways. Perhaps using Nintendo's Letter 2 above as a starting point? And I don't have any idea where to start looking for the address. --Poiuyt Man talk 12:5 , 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Dai Grepher: It is not a fact that it is a remake Andrevan. You obviously have no idea what a fact is in order for you to make such a statement. A fact is a truth proven against all opposing ideas, theories, or information. If a new theory opposing the fact is presented then the fact becomes a theory and cannot be considered a fact again until it disproves the challenging theory. The remake side has done nothing to disprove any of my facts. So at the very least, the remake article cannot be presented as a fact. It must remain non-partisan until the mediators resolve this. You have no right to declare such an order that it be made to "contradict Dai Grepher". That statement alone shows how biased and prejudiced you are in this issue. You will be deliberately committing vandalism on the article page by posting information that is known to be incorrect and unproven. Hope in Sakamoto proving you to be correct is not justification to change the pages, as it is an opinion of yours and not a known fact that Sakamoto shares your idea of what the game is or is not.Dai Grepher 18:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is oriented around consensus, and facts. As clearly shown on this page, the consensus is against you. Additionally, or your information, I'm an administrator and a mediator. By "fact," we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For every sensible fact, there is a Flat Earth Society lurking in the shadows. A single person does not constitute a serious dispute. Andre (talk) 04:12, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Dai Grepher: Are you comparing my factual presentation to the Flat Earth theory? You have no idea what you are talking about. First of all your theory is not a fact, as the fact of the Earth being round is a fact. Second, I have presented facts and evidence from multiple official and canon sources. If it does not prove that the game is a prequel, it does at least disprove the "fact" that it is a remake. So even though it does prove that it is a prequel, you and everyone else disregard those facts. So at the very least it challenges this remake "fact" of yours and makes it a remake theory. Just because 12 people are all in consensus that the world is flat and disregard all evidence to the contrary does not make the world flat. It is your opinion that this is not a serious dispute. The fact that we are looking into a mediator judge ruling proves that this is very serious.Dai Grepher 22:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that we are on the round side, you are the flatty. It is obvious that this game is being presented as a remake and is CLEARLY a remake, and yet you're saying your theory is most likely. -- A Link to the Past 22:49, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Your "facts" are merely continuity problems that prove nothing. It's a fact, for the purposes of Wikipedia, that Zero Mission is an enhanced remake of Metroid, as clearly shown by a great deal of evidence. All the ambiguities you pointed out were mistakes, nothing more. Also, you apparently know nothing about the Wikipedia dispute resolution process: there's nothing called a "mediator judge ruling" and mediators don't decide what belongs in an article. Anyway, I'm not compelled to respond to your messages here, so I won't do so if you just continue restating your groundless objections. But, as a warning to you, if you start an edit war on this article you will be blocked for ignoring consensus. Andre (talk) 22:54, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Dai Grepher: Purpose of surveys Surveys may be used as part of dispute resolution, or to solicit opinions before making significant changes. They can be useful in developing consensus when community opinion is not immediately obvious in normal discussion. For example, a survey may bring in opinions from people who agree with one position, but don't join the discussion because they don't feel they have anything original to add.

For ideas on designing a survey, see Wikipedia:Survey guidelines. The results of a survey are not binding, and may be subject to interpretation. A survey may sometimes be called a poll, and it may involve voting for different options, but it is not the same thing as an election. For information on elections related to Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Elections.

Opinion surveys should be used to determine whether a consensus exists, not to decide which side "wins". Successful surveys and polls generate consensus, because some people who disagree will nevertheless recognize and accept the consensus opinion of the community.

Dai Grepher: You are the one misunderstanding what a consensus is. The survey is not there to determine which side wins. I am going to change the pages to be non-partisan in the interest of fairness, and I warn you that if you revert them to favor one side of the debate before arbitration or mediation attempts to resolve this issue, I will report you for vandalism. Dai Grepher 02:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

While I do think it's good that you're looking into the rules, Dai Grepher, it's also important to note that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy either. Simply put, the goal is not merely to have some moderator or arbitrator come in to look at this, like you've been wanting all along. The goal is to reach consensus, and while I realise that polls aren't the same thing as consensus, to our knowledge, you're pretty much standing alone on the issue all in all. Since I imagine you intend to fight for your theory until told to cease and desist, eventually there will come to a point somewhere in the process where the almost consensus that we have achieved will win out by default. The Missing Link 05:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
A poll is a method to show whether or not there is consensus. It is clear that you are the only one at all who disagrees, and that there is a clear consensus. If you continue to revert to your version, you will be blocked for ignoring consensus. Andre (talk) 18:21, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Dai Grepher: The poll shows that there is not a consensus. I have already stated that I do not regard the poll, which means it cannot be used to determine which description gets posted in the article. I do not agree with the others who have voted and I have provided evidence that proves they are wrong in their opinion of the game. I am the only one who disagrees in this microscopic corner of the Internet. There are many others who believe that Zero Mission is a prequel, but they do not know of this poll. Therefore your votes cannot be counted as a clear consensus. I have also not reverted anything. I have made new edits, which under Wikipedia policy do not count as reverts. You also cannot block me unless you have posted vandalism warnings on my talk page, or if I have violated the Three Revert Rule, which is three consecutive reversions within a 24 hour period. I have not made reverts that are more than 24 hours apart, and I have not made the same edits. My edits also do not favor either side of the argument as yours have done, which according to administrator guidelines you are not supposed to do unless the other side is clearly vandalism. I have already warned you once on your talk page. Continue to make edits favoring a side in the article which is clearly under dispute, and I will proceed with other vandalism in progress protocols.Dai Grepher 23:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, 100% of the votes being for remake is not a consensus? And whoa whoa whoa - do NOT say that the poll is inapplicable because you do not regard it. Polls ARE used to get consensus, so mister minority, get over it. You say proof, yet you never even quoted Sakamoto EVER saying prequel. How can that be proof if everything is a preview? And, who cares if this is the microscopic portion of the internet? Go to the other 99.9% of the internet if you disagree, okay? And there are people who believe in the world being flat. But there are 1,000,000,000 rounders to each flatters. There are more remakers than there are prequelers. We do not take consensus based on the idea that there may be supporters somewhere else, we take consensus on the Wikipedia community. Ignoring consensus is a blockable offense, so don't hide behind the fact that you haven't reverted four times. If I felt like it, I could go to the Mario page and argue that he's a gay rapist living in New Zealand. Can you explain why I couldn't say there's no dispute? Despite some crazy notion that your opinion is the only one that matters, and the fact that you have no one but a few nut jobs supporting you (nut jobs you don't even know exist, no less), Wikipedia relies on facts and consensus. We provide more facts, and the consensus is in our favor. Tell Jimbo that consensus is unimportant, 'kay? -- A Link to the Past 23:54, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Dai: If there were 1,000,000 flat earth believers to 1 round earth believer, would it be a fact that the world is flat? No. That is the case with this discussion. The remake side disregards facts that prove the game is a prequel. That is why you have reverted to edit wars of the article. You know that the mediation and arbitration group will actually regard the facts and conclude that the game is a prequel. Right now, you want the page to be biased. I want the page to be neutral until a ruling is made. You and Andre are the vandals here. Well, I have requested that the page be protected as a NPOV article until a ruling has been made.
Dai: One more thing. I am asking you to listen to Sakamoto when he says that he would not necessarily call Zero Mission a remaking of backstory. The fact that he never calls it a prequel is irrelevant, because doing so may have spoiled the storyline for gamers. The fact that he never calls it a remake is just as apparent. So unless you can provide some proof that Sakamoto said it is a remake, and not just say that you can or have done, then as far as his word goes, it is not a remake of storyline. I am actually glad that we are organizing separate evidence pages, because now we all get to see how much evidence you really have. Or should I say, don’t have? Dai Grepher 00:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, notice how he didn't say "I wouldn't necessarily call it a remake". He specifically said backstory. If you're going to say the gameplay is a remake of Metroid, remember that it's not very different from Metroid Fusion; so if anything, Fusion's a remake. And I guess they didn't care to spoil Metroid Fusion when they called it Metroid IV? -- A Link to the Past 00:51, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Music

"The original Metroid soundtrack was one of the first low-key game soundtracks aimed at building atmosphere without the intrusive loops of the likes of Super Mario Bros; the move to an orchestral and more continuous score is therefore an unexpected stylistic departure for the remake, and has not been universally accepted by fans."

I question the accuracy of this statement. What is meant by "the move to an orchestral and more continuous score"? Nearly every tune in the game is a recomposition of a song from either Metroid or Super Metroid. As far as I can remember, the only original music comes from three of the cutscenes: the opening "Emergency Order" music, the post-Mother Brain space battle, and the Chozo Suit room. --Poiuyt Man talk 13:28, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Where is this statement from?Dai Grepher 18:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's from the Zero Mission article, and I am not sure what it's based on. I've never heard of any such criticisms of ZM's music. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Then we should discard it.Dai Grepher 22:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to summary

I added new evidence to the page. Samus' memory of Metroid and Storyline comparison both feature new evidence that support the prequel fact. I also took out this line: ", but Brinstar is now much further beneath the planet's surface" I took this out of the Location of Tourian and the starting location section, because it suggests that Brinstar moved between Metroid and Super Metroid or was redesigned to be in a different place than where it was in Metroid. While it is true that the starting location sank, Brinstar did not move. The Brinstar in Super Metroid is a new part of Brinstar, not the same area seen in Metroid. Evidence of this is seen in Super Metroid. The path leading to Kraid's Hideout is blocked off, and so is the path leading to the Metroid Brinstar (the path leading under the wall just after the Energy Tank hidden in the ceiling). The Brinstar areas seen in Super Metroid are different in appearance to those seen in Metroid. Dai Grepher 18:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Stop adding bias. The Summary section is for presenting evidence, not stating interpretations of the evidence and passing them off as fact. I've completely removed "Storyline Comparison", since it was just an interpretation of the box and manual descriptions. They are already on the page. Add the Nintendo.com storyline if you wish, but do not state "This story does not match Metroid's story." It sure sounds like Metroid to me, and I'm sure other people would agree.
Dai Grepher: Everything that I presented were facts. The storyline comparison simply highlights important facts. I think that bringing important facts to the reader's attention should be done so that they are not overlooked. You object to it because they are facts that prove you wrong. The story that Nintendo presents for Zero Mission is of Samus being sent to investigate rumors of Metroids. Metroid has Samus sent to Zebes to destroy Metroids and Mother Brain after the Federation already attempted to invade the pirate fortress. It is a fact that those are different stories. However, I have presented these again with no implications whatsoever in the spirit of fairness.Dai Grepher 22:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Your bizarre explanation for the wall-jump/shinespark inconsistency is by no means proof to state "this is not a storyline change". Post the statements and screenshots from the games, do not force your interpretation of them on the reader.
Dai Grepher: It is however a sufficient explanation to prove that a storyline change is not a fact. You actually began the section with the words, "Metroid: Zero Mission has possibly altered the Metroid storyline..." That does not sound like a fact to me. You have no evidence that this was a storyline change, so I have deleted the "Other storyline changes introduced by Zero Mission" assumption of yours completely. Not only do you have no evidence of a storyline change, but also with the word "Other" in that statement, you suggest that Zero Mission changed other parts of the Metroid series storyline. So please stop trying to force your interpretations on the readers.Dai Grepher 22:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've also added information in "Tourian's appearance" about the inconsistencies between Metroid and Super Metroid. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: This is really pathetic Poiuytman. You know that the old Tourian in Super Metroid is from Metroid, yet with your recent presentation you seem to either be suggesting that they are not the same, or that the creators redesigned it without considering continuity. To do this you completely disregard the fact that Metroid had a significantly lower quality graphics engine than Super Metroid, and you forget that the old Tourian had an explosion happen within it, which would change things in the room. This would easily destroy the middle turrets. You also forget that the room right before the brain room was rebuilt to be an elevator room, which would explain why the door is lower in the brain room and has a platform before it. Have you also forgotten that some of the facts you presented do not match Zero Mission's Tourian either? It appears that you are trying to mislead with this new evidence, which is why I have added some factual clarification to it.

Dai Grepher 22:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to mislead, I'm showing that the differences between Tourian in Zero Mission and Super Metroid do not prove that they are different locations, because there are also differences between Tourian in Metroid and Super Metroid. And the arbitrarily condensed space between the first and second zeebetites is not explained by the explosion, or by an enhanced graphical engine. It was obviously done for gameplay reasons, to line up the elevator correctly. The designers aren't as nitpicky over continuity as you make them out to be. Regarding the door platform, it has the same corroded post-explosion look as the rest of the room, which rules out reconstruction. --Poiuyt Man talk 17:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Not if that one platform was reconstructed with debris that was blown away from other parts of the room's machinery. The door being lower also proves a reconstruction of that part. As I said, the pirates have no logical reason to rebuild something that they will not use (i.e. brain pod and Zeebetites of Zero Mission). However, the room at the end of the brain room was used and reconstructed. A rebuilding of a platform to access that room would be logical.Dai Grepher 23:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Facts are on our side, and so is consensus. Get over it. -- A Link to the Past 02:53, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Dai Grepher: Your side has no facts. Your side only has baseless assumptions that similarities between the games prove a remake, and differences between them are instances of "retcons". You also have no counter arguments to the facts that prove the game is a prequel. Your side says that the inconsistancies are mistakes, yet your side has no evidence of that either. The consensus has been protested and does not affect this debate in the least.

Dai Grepher 03:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we do have t he funny little fact that the word remake is, at the very least, often used in the same sentence as Metroid: Zero Mission. No one involved has ever even mentioned the word prequel in the same interview. The inconsistencies? Well, if you haven't realized yet - Gunpei Yokoi is dead. We are to assume he didn't work on Zero Mission. And, any 'moderator' will look at the constant use of remake, the consensus and the fact that you use no quotes from Sakamoto on ZM and insists he agrees with you, and will say "remake" and slap that on. -- A Link to the Past 03:37, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Dai Grepher, I have removed your edits from this page a second time, but before you go accusing me of vandalism (again), let me explain in greater detail why I'm doing this. As I noted in the edit summary last time, the arguments that you posted were DUPLICATED elsewhere in the discussion above. Specifically, your first quote ""THE FULL STORY OF SAMUS ARAN'S FIRST MISSION FINALLY UNFOLDS..." is already posted in the section Zero Mission box description in ¶2 in its entirety (whereas yours is just an excerpt). Your second quote, "The space hunter chosen for this mission was Samus Aran..." is already posted in the section Metroid and Zero Mission manual comparison in ¶7, again, in the same context. There is no need to have it posted a second time, not to mention posted with your added emphasis (which does not exist in the source documentation).

I know this is a stretch for you to believe, but I am acting in a professional manner on this edit, and I'd like for you to for once believe that I just might be acting in good faith. I explained my edit the first time, and I would appreciate if next time I was given the benefit of the doubt. The Missing Link 05:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: I belive you. I also believe that any non-biased reader will notice these important facts that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Zero Mission is a prequel. Besides, my page of facts proving this truth will dwarf the remake side's page in comparison anyway.Dai Grepher 23:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Small edit, but according to Wikipedia:Concensus, we do have a supermajority on the issue, and by Wikipedia's definition, that allows for concensus rules to apply. I have re-reverted User:Dai Grepher's edit to the page accordingly. The Missing Link 23:13, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai: According to the NPOV rules, a consensus cannot be used to overrule a Netral point of view. What I have posted in the article is a description of Zero Mission as a game, not as a remake or a prequel. I have posted a netral point of view.

"Note that consensus can only work among reasonable editors who are making a good faith effort to work together to accurately and appropriately describe the different views on the subject. (e.g. insisting on insertion of an insignificant factoid into an article in opposition to many other editors has been judged a violation of consensus; see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Charles Darwin-Lincoln dispute.)

Specifying exactly what constitutes a reasonable or rational position is difficult. Nearly every editor believes that their position is reasonable; good editors acknowledge that positions opposed to their own are also reasonable. But Wikipedia's consensus practice does not justify stubborn insistence on an eccentric position combined with refusal to consider other viewpoints in good faith. With respect to good faith, no amount of emphasized assertions that you are editing according to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view while engaging in biased editing will serve to paper over the nature of your activities.

Consensus should not trump NPOV (or any other official policy). A group of editors advocating a viewpoint do not, in theory, overcome the policy expressed in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not concerning advocacy and propaganda. However, a group of editors may be able to shut out certain facts and points of view through persistence, numbers, and organization. This group of editors should not agree to an article version that violates NPOV, but on occasion will do so anyway. This is generally agreed to be a bad thing." Dai Grepher 23:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Should we believe the theory of the prequel... or should we believe that there's a good reason why Sakamoto has never used the word prequel to represent Zero Mission? -- A Link to the Past 23:54, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
Dai: Did he ever refer to Zero Mission as a remake of Metroid? I did not think so. Dai Grepher 00:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
So, when he was saying remake, he was referring to some nonexistant game then? -- A Link to the Past 00:51, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
You fail to realise that we DO have a NPOV, Dai. We've analysed the facts. We've chosen what we believe, and we didn't just arbitrarily believe in something just because. Therefore, it is a consensus and an NPOV.
Also with regards to round-Earth and flat-Earth, the problem is that you analyse this problem from the 21st century viewpoint. If someone were to tell you in 1450 that the world was round, they'd laugh at you. Were they wrong? Yes, but that was what was believed to be correct. If we're proven wrong by suddenly discoving (via Sakamoto deus ex machina) that Sakamoto meant it to be a prequel, then we'll 'fess up and we'll admit it. But until that happens, the truth is unknown, and thus a what is generally accepted to be true by the community (which is our opinion by an obvious supermajority), is held to be true because that is the current popular belief. You can argue up and down that your theory is better than ours, but you do not know the proof because you do not have the "ultimate first source" evidence. The Missing Link 01:32, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Wikipedia still favors a NPOV article over one that states a certain stance on an issue, especially when the validity of that stance is questioned considerably. I will also remind you again that Sakamoto never once calls Zero Mission a remake, so it is not as if the interview with him supports your argument. Dai Grepher 03:30, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So, he was not actually referring to anything in particular when he constantly said remake? -- A Link to the Past 03:34, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
Something to chew on: Taken from NPOV:
From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:
  • If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
  • If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
  • If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not (see Wikipedia:Flat earth problem).
We've easily established that the remake-side of the debate is the (super)majority opinion, and thus it deserves its due in the article. You have yet to show that your viewpoint holds a significant minority. Until you do so, consensus overrules NPOV. The Missing Link 17:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Consensus overrules nothing according to consensus policies. While we are on the subject of non-applicable policies, your claim that my presentation is a Flat Earth argument is false. You also misunderstand what the Flat Earth Problem is. "A flat earth problem is the incredulity that arises when someone questions the obvious objective truth and claims it's a valid alternative." The remake theory is not an obvious truth. I do not claim that my presentation is a valid alternative. I prove that it is a valid alternative. The majority of Wikipedia users that have viewed this debate believe that the game is a remake. Some of those who voted are those that spent time contributing to the Zero Mission page. It seems logical that they would want to preserve their own work and efforts. Another thing to remember is that your poll does not represent those outside of this website. These recent attempts to change the article unjustly and subject me to corrective action is just proof of how desperate some on your side are to make the facts I have found to simply go away. I say that this petty edit war that you people have going on should stop, the article should be non-partisan until arbitration has made a decision or until Sakamoto responds with an answer, and we should try to resolve this quickly and peacefully. Dai Grepher 01:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Sending letters#Poll

Wikipedia:Sending letters#Poll will need to pass for us to carry through with my plan, so please vote on it. Andre (talk) 20:13, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Dai Grepher has been blocked.

00:39, August 20, 2005, Andrevan blocked Dai Grepher (expires expires 00:39, August 21, 2005) (contribs) (unblock) (Ignoring consensus, vandalizing user pages. Blocked for 24 hours, as warned.)

RfC

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Dai Grepher Andre (talk) 22:37, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Resolving the Issue

Dai Grepher: I suggest that we move into the mediation step. I think that Improv, and Stevertigo should be mediators in this issue. Improv seems to be knowledgeable of the policies and Stevertigo seems knowledgeable of NPOV. Does the remake side want to request additional mediators or does anyone have any objections to those I selected? If not, then I will contact them and ask them to mediate this dispute. Hopefully we will be able to come to a peaceful understanding and resolve the issue. If not, then we will request arbitration. Dai Grepher 02:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Peaceful =/= vandalizing user pages. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:58, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
User:Improv doesn't think mediation is appropriate for this situation. See WP:RFM#Metroid:_Zero_Mission. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:02, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Then we should move on to arbitration. I will also state another problem with the poll that was brought to my attention. This is not a confidential poll where the votes are kept secret until the poll has ended. Many users voting for the same thing influence others to vote the same way, or not vote at all because the outcome seems clear and would cause one to think that their vote will not make a difference. If we take this poll to the Villiage Pump, it should keep the results secret until a certain date when the poll is set to end.Dai Grepher 23:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New evidence supporting old points.

Dai Grepher: http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5282/zeromissionstaement9re.png This image is of Zero Mission's website in the timeline section. Nintendo clearly describes Zero Mission as being Samus Aran's FIRST MISSION. Metroid's manual clearly states that there are missions before Metroid. This makes Zero Mission a prequel by Nintendo's official word. Therefore arbitration is not necessary and I will change the article to reflect this fact. Dai Grepher 23:27, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot nitpick every single word of text, even it if comes straight from Nintendo. They make mistakes and cannot foresee the future of all of their franchises. The Metroid manual also says about Samus: He is the greatest of all the space bounty hunters ... (emphasis mine) Shall we change the article to state that Samus is male? I wish you would let this issue rest. --Pagrashtak 00:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: This is not nitpicking. The statement cleary says that this is Samus' first mission. Your claim that Nintendo makes mistakes is true, but you cannot prove that they made a mistake in this case. Nintendo did not have to foresee anything here. They stated information about an existing game that is clearly a prequel. The Metroid manual states that Samus is a male intentionally to add to the surprise of her being female for those that can complete the game in under two hours. That information can be explained by the fact that no one knew the truth about Samus, and what we heard about her in the manual were rumors. Zero Mission's manual revised the Metroid prologue to state that she is female, so your point has no basis. You are obviously ignoring the facts because you prefer your own theory over the correct timeline. Dai Grepher 02:34, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Fire Red and Leaf Green - Undoubtable remakes of Red and Blue. In Fire Red and Leaf Green, the Rival's name is Green, in the originals, his name is Blue. Does that make it not a remake?
What really happened on it? Let me point something out to you. If this is not a remake, why is that "What really happened" statement necessary? The statement indicates that this is a more accurate retelling of an already existing story. Does "What really happened in that story you never heard before" make any sense? - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:03, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Dai Grepher: Pokemon games are irrelevant to this discussion. The "What really happened" statement does not refer to any story, if you would read it correctly. It states, "What really happened on planet Zebes?" That refers to Zebes' history, not a previous Metroid game. Zero Mission shows us the history of Zebes and the Chozo. That statement is refering to Zebes' historical background. Then the next line clearly states that this is Samus' first mission. Metroid is not Samus first mission. These facts prove that Zero Mission is a prequel to Metroid. You cannot refute these facts, and you cannot post false information on Wikipedia. Your theory has been disproven by facts. Therefore the page must be changed to be correct. Dai Grepher 02:34, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
For there to be a "real story behind Samus Aran's first mission," there must obviously be a false story behind Samus Aran's first mission. This does not prove that Metroid cannot be that false telling of Samus' first mission. The Missing Link 02:24, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Who said it was not told within the Metroid universe? Metroid's prologue makes it clear that Samus Aran is the greatest Space Hunter because of her previous missions. Her first mission may have been just as distorted as her personal background of being a male cyborg. Also, this does not mean that a flase story was told. Saying that it is the real story could just be an ephisis of accuracy in a story never told until then. The fact is that Zero Mission is her first mission and Metroid is not according to the makers of the games. You cannot argue with the primary source.Dai Grepher 02:34, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sick of you saying "No, they're not referring to that." You forget to add that you are good friends with Miyamoto, Sakamoto and everyone at Nintendo, since you seem so sure what THEIR statements mean.
Um, so, why did they say "what really happened"? Has this storyline existed in some form and told to us before? The statement shows that this is something we already know. Let me explain - you know the English language? Yeah? Well, this particular piece of English is not used when no one knows what you're even talking about. It's very clear that MZM is a remake of Metroid. You say that it's not because it's different. Well, that's a good argument, as long as you ignore the fact that remakes in games ARE DIFFERENT. Was the Galactic Federation even mentioned in Metroid, or even the manual? If not, how can you say that it's not referring to past missions outside of the Galactic Federation? She is clearly affiliated with the Galactic Federation in this game. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:04, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Dai, you can go and say that there's no proof that they are absolutely referring to Metroid all you want in that sentence. However, it is a two-way street; you can't say for certain that they're not talking about Metroid. As far as the whole missions before Metroid thing, read the arguments below. There is no known proof that completely renders that impossible. The Missing Link 06:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: First, to A Link to the Past: Sakamoto did not make that statement. That is from Nintendo.com. I just told you why they said "what really happened". The full quote is, "What really happened on planet Zebes?" That quote does not refer to Metroid or any other game. It is referring to Zebes' past. We know that the Chozo occupied Zebes but certain disasters made them flee or die out. Zero Mission goes back to that history and the events that lead to the destruction of the Chozo and the occupation of the Space Pirates. Zero Mission covers Zebes' past, and that is why Nintendo states that on their website. Remakes of games are a little different, but they do not change the storyline of the entire game and they certainly do not make the timeline inconsistent. The Galactic Federation was mentioned in the Metroid manual and the game, but when you say "how can you say that it's not referring to past missions outside of the Galactic Federation" are you talking about the quote that states, "What really happened on planet Zebes"? In that case I think it is referring to something outside the Federation. I think it is referring to Zebes' history. You next say that she is clearly affiliated with the Federation, and you are right, but that only supports the prequel side. She was chosen for the Metroid mission because of her prior missions. So why would the Federation or Nintendo refer to her next mission as her first mission? That does not make any sense. I doubt you are trying to help my side A Link to the Past, so I must ask you to clarify your point please. Oh wait, you said, “what really happened” but you might have meant to say “the real story” which refers to the real story of Samus’ first mission. This does not mean that there is a false story out there, or that Metroid is that false story. The real story could just be emphasis of this Zero Mission’s accuracy. However, there could have been rumors about Samus’ first mission just as there were rumors of Samus being a male cyborg, and Zero Mission is the real story to those rumors. What is certain is that this is the real story of her first mission, and Metroid is not her first mission.

Dai Grepher: Actually The Missing Link, I can say that it is not referring to Metroid. I will not speculate on what “the real story” infers because I do not know that. Ed Poor asked us to post what we know. What I know is that this is the real story of Samus’ first mission, and Metroid is clearly not her first mission. Dai Grepher 22:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What you "know" is, ironically, what you have failed to convince other people to believe in the poll for concensus. The Missing Link 07:09, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: The poll proves the stubbornness of others, not the inadequacies of my presentation. Dai Grepher 04:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Can't it be both?

I'm going to just take a guess, here, based on my own experience as a programmer. I think they remade the game as a pre-quel.

In other words, I'm guessing the Zero Mission scenarios represent a prequel to the main storyline, but it may well also be that the created this new game by revising the old one - rather than starting from scratch.

You know, it would be very interesting if someone would investigate how the made the new game from the old. But let's not fight about it. (Or even speculate too much.) Let's just say what we know. Uncle Ed 02:50, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Dai Grepher: That is what I think happened. I agree with you completely. I think they just reused Metroid's story and gameplay but made a new game out of it that is a prequel to the first game.
Japanese people truly made the game, so it would be difficult to find someone that can read and write Japanese and research the issue. Research would involve contacting those that worked on the game and so on, so all we can do is go by what Nintendo has said and the games.
Now, this is what I know: 1. Nintendo said that Zero Mission is the first mission. 2. Metroid states in its prologue that there have been missions prior to the Metroid mission. That clearly indicates a prequel to me. Dai Grepher 03:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai: I simply think that you have picked up on a few small details, and counted that as your entire body of evidence, while multiple pieces of evidence say otherwise. Videogame companies aren't perfect; especially when creating retroactive continuities, they're bound to end up with a few discontinuities here and there, and the other items that you cite (not including your statement above) merely show you nitpicking on small items (such as the placement of certain locations) that weren't perfectly, exactly copied.
However, as for your statement above, I have explained on my talk page how that could be accounted for:
"How do you necessarily know that those "numerous missions" were counted as actual missions when the first statement was written? It is entirely possible that Samus, being a bounty hunter, had completed numerous other dangerous missions BEFORE joining the Galactic Federation, but in the view of the Federation, the mission of Metroid/Metroid: Zero Mission, Samus's mission to Zebes is the "first" mission, which the Federation (in its own records) conveniently assigned mission number Zero, hence, "Zero Mission"."
That should do it. ~GMH 04:47, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I still have a difficult time with this. Dai, you're saying that you think "they just reused Metroid's story ... but made ... a prequel to the first game." I just find this very difficult to believe that the same story, the same series of events (with some minor degree of variation) would happen twice in a row. It just seems so improbable that they build a base, get their butts handed to them by Samus, and then having not learned anything, built a (near-)identical base, and then Samus (in an almost déjà vu experience) does the same thing over again (again, nearly approximately). The question that really hasn't been answered to my satisfaction is why would the Space Pirates build that particular base, with geography very similar to the first base, with a layout very similar to the first base, with regions in the same location as the first base... when Samus soundly defeated them when going through it the first time? The Missing Link 06:34, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai always seems to omit the glaring errors in his theory. The Metroid manual does indeed say that Samus has been on previous missions, but so does Zero Mission's manual, since it has nearly the exact same prologue (except translated better). This completely contradicts the box and above description by saying that Samus has been on missions before Zero Mission. Dai's flimsy explanation for this is that the prologue in Zero Mission's manual is actually referring to the original Metroid, instead of the game it is packaged with. Absurd. Check the official Nintendo timelines [3][4] — Zero Mission does not come before Metroid. --Poiuyt Man talk 14:30, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ed - I appreciate that you're trying to help. However, Metroid: Zero Mission is indisputably a remake that has the same storyline as the original Metroid. The game is essentially the same in every way except for a few picayune details. Andre (talk) 18:53, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't go so far to say it's the same in every way. The background story is obviously the same, and the main sequence of events is similar, but the gameplay is drastically changed, due to influences from the later Metroid games. --Poiuyt Man talk 20:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The gameplay and graphics are updated, but it's clearly the same game. Andre (talk) 20:34, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
Nitpicking aside, I believe the main body of evidence comes from playing the games themselves, not reading the manuals or box text. If Miyamoto himself said that Zero Mission is a remake of Resident Evil, I would still consider it a remake of Metroid based on my experience of playing the games. --Pagrashtak 03:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: You GMH, say multiple pieces of evidence say otherwise, but I ask: What pieces? The remake side has next to no evidence at all, and what you do have is vague and uncertain. My evidence has been taken from the game itself, its textual media, and the director of the game. This is all major evidence, and there is a large amount of it for the prequel side. I do not nitpick insignificant locations that were not placed exactly as they appear in Metroid, I am pointing out items and locations that were not placed in Zero Mission at all. The fifth Zeebetite, crucial for continuity in two separate yet equally important cases, as well as the omission of Fake Kraid both prove that Nintendo knowingly designed Zero Mission to be very different and inaccurate from Metroid. You cannot claim that Zero Mission is a "retconned" Metroid just because there are many inconsistencies. You need some proof that it was "retconned". The inconsistencies could very well be proof of a different mission, so you cannot just dismiss all of the overwhelming evidence that the game is a prequel just by claiming that all of these facts are "retcons". You are also saying that Nintendo made mistakes when "remaking" Metroid. So Nintendo knew that Zero Mission was Metroid, and knew that logically it had to lead into Super Metroid since that is a sequel, but made the parts of the game that reappear in Super Metroid completely inconsistent? Basically, you are saying that Nintendo made it inconsistent purposely. That seems like a biased belief to me. As for your supposition that her "first mission" somehow translates into "first mission with the Federation", I must remind you that this is not the Federation telling us that Zero Mission is her first mission. It is the supreme source, Nintendo, telling us the gamers that Zero Mission is Samus' first mission. Period. There is no mention of a Federation on the back of the Zero Mission box, and there is no mention of it on Nintendo's Zero Mission website. Your argument for this point just shows how willing you are to make excuses for your own theory. You create a "could be" scenario without any proof showing that this is even the case, and you neglect to realize that this is the game company and makers of the game speaking to us.

Dai Grepher: The Missing Link, Zero Mission is not the same story by any means. It involves similar events and a similar threat, but how many Zelda and Mario games repeat similar plots? Zero Mission has the basic outline of defeating Kraid, Ridley, and Mother Brain, stopping the Metroid threat, and getting away from the areas before they self-destruct similar to Metroid's plot. However, Super Metroid shares the same similarities in plot yet that is not a remake. Zero Mission features new areas, bosses, and storyline to make it just as different from Metroid as Super Metroid is. Saying only a minor degree of variation exists between Zero Mission and Metroid is something said by someone who has not played both games, or someone who clearly ignores the facts. The bases are not the same at all. Many areas in Zero Mission show that Zebes is at an earlier point in time than Metroid, because Metroid shows much more humanoid-made structures and bases than Zero Mission does. In Zero Mission, the room before Kraid (the boss) is plain. In Metroid that room's ceiling is made to look like the top a lizard's head. Now aside from proving that the two games were not made to be the same mission at all, this also proves that the pirates did reconstruct their bases or build new ones for Metroid. You also cannot say that these bases are in the same location. Zero Mission's map features elevators that must bend or curve at the very least in order for the areas to match up logically. This causes some areas to be placed in different locations than seen in Metroid. The best example is Tourian. In Zero Mission, Tourian is too large to be placed where it is seen in Metroid. Therefore, Zero Mission's overview map places it to the side of Brinstar and somewhat below it. So you really have no evidence that these areas are the same or in the same place. Plus, the fact that the pirates did repeat the same mistakes in Super Metroid counters your argument that the pirates would not repeat the same mistakes from Zero Mission in Metroid. So your point is moot.

Dai Grepher: Poiuytman, it is your opinion that those are errors in my theory, not fact. They are actually errors in your theory, which is why I would not mention them when explaining why the prequel fact is correct, but instead when explaining why the remake hypothesis is incorrect. As you mentioned, the prologue contradicts the box, and as I have pointed out, the website as well. Of course this is under the assumption that Zero Mission is a remake. All you have shown is that your theory contradicts the facts. A story that is written for Metroid in 1986 still applies to Metroid in 2005. Absurd? What is so absurd about that? The story in the manual has always been Metroid's story. If it now applies to Zero Mission, then why would Nintendo state that Zero Mission is Samus' first mission? What is absurd is the idea that the game makers said to themselves, "All right, Zero Mission is Metroid now that we have remade it, and it follows the same story as Metroid with this being one of Samus' later missions. So now that we know this is not her first mission, lets say that it actually is her first mission on the back of the box and on Nintendo.com's Zero Mission website. Additionally, lets not remake the prologue by taking out the part about prior missions as we did with the whole cyborg rumor. That should really give people the right idea about the game." No, the Metroid story was restated in the Zero Mission manual to be accurate with the known facts and set the stage for Zero Mission being a prior mission. They established Metroid's point in the timeline and intentionally restated the fact that Metroid had missions before it so that people would know that Zero Mission comes before Metroid as the first of those missions mentioned. The fact that Nintendo did not omit the prior missions fact and then also stated that Zero Mission is the first in two separate instances is undeniable proof that Zero Mission is a prequel. You are relying on the slim possibility that Nintendo made a horrible mistake by not omitting the fact or by stating something that was not true in the first place. Yours is the flimsy explanation. As far as those timelines are concerned, you do not know that Nintendo is not saying that the telling of Zero Mission takes place after Metroid's mission has ended. The fact is that Zero Mission is the reminiscence of Samus Aran. So that could be the point in time when she tells of Zero Mission, making the events of the game past tense. If Zero Mission were a remake, then why doesn't it occupy the same point on the timeline as Metroid? The answer is because it is a different mission.

The timeline is not placing the "telling of Zero Mission" at that point on the timeline, it's placing "Zero Mission" there. Nintendo intentionally placing the game in that position on the timeline, yet only meaning to have it refer to the telling of the game is ludicrous.
Everybody, see this: http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/history/index.html
The animation shows the points on the timeline forming first, then the box images appearing in release order (Metroid->2->3->Fusion->Prime). The Metroid point then flashes, and another point splits off from it, placing itself between Metroid and Prime, but closer to Metroid. Zero Mission's box appears last as the most recent game released at the time. Why is the timeline point separate from Metroid? Simple explanation -- Zero Mission covers a significant portion of events that occur after the destruction of Mother Brain, so it's logical to place the point on the timeline slightly after Metroid. --Poiuyt Man talk 18:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Baseless supposition. Can you read Japanese? If so what does the text for Zero Mission say? If you cannot, then how can you claim that it being Metroid plus some is the correct explanation? Ed asked us to post what we know. Do you know that your idea of what that timeline means is a fact? I could use the Metroidhunters.com Zero Mission timeline as the same type of evidence you are trying to submit, but then you would challenge the meaning of that timeline. So please post evidence that you know is proof.Dai Grepher 04:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to read Japanese. "HISTORY" is displayed at the top of the page, along with "Cronicle Time Line" [sic] in the background. The boxes clearly appear in release order, but their placement from left to right along the timeline is not in release order. Since Metroid Prime has already been confirmed to come between Metroid 1 and 2, the only logical conclusion is that this is the in-game chronological order. I don't know exactly what the summaries say for each game, but clicking on Zero Mission displays a bunch of Japanese text with "2003", "20X5", "Space Pirate", suggesting that it's the prologue from the manual. The only speculation here is the reasoning for Zero Mission's point splitting off from Metroid. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: When you say that you do not know exactly what the summaries for each game say, don't you mean to say that you do not know what they say at all? You just said that you do not need to read Japanese, which is strange, seeing as how the summaries and flash movie for Zero Mission are in Japanese. The video for Zero Mission begins with Samus Aran's memories of childhood. How can you be so sure that this is not the point in time when Samus is telling of the tale when she was raised as a child, the Federation was founded, and the Space Pirates rose up as a menace to the galaxy? Moreover, what makes you think that any of those Japanese symbols describe a remake? It is your opinion that they "logically" are. Can you say for certain that all those symbols mean that this is Metroid's story and not a story that comes before it? If you cannot, then you have no evidence. Plus, I would like to challenge the accuracy of that chronology since Metroid Prime: Echoes does not even appear on that timeline. The obscure and uncertain timeline that you are referencing may be outdated! Dai Grepher 19:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You miss the point. I did not say that the site proves Metroid: Zero Mission to be a remake, but it definitely rules out the possibility that the game comes before Metroid, as you believe. Metroid Prime 2: Echoes does not appear on the site's timeline because at the time the Zero Mission site went live (May 2004 according to the Internet Archive), Echoes wasn't out yet (possibly not even announced). On the bonus disc, released later, the same timeline is used, with Echoes placed between Prime and Return of Samus (see this link, bottom of page). There is no evidence that this timeline is outdated, since it is the most recent timeline released, and no new Metroid games have come out yet since Prime 2. You have yet to provide a convincing argument for why two official Nintendo timelines would be wrong. --Poiuyt Man talk 21:26, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: That does not rule out anything. I said that the timeline could mean that the telling of the Zero Mission events takes place after Metroid. While it is not a fact that this is the case, you cannot disprove that or prove that it means that the Zero Mission events take place at that time. I have not even claimed that they were wrong on the bonus disc... yet. I claimed that Zero Mission's placement is based on the present tense of Samus telling the story of past events that take place before Metroid. Though now that you mention it, that timeline does appear to be incorrect. I can prove this at the bottom of the page. Dai Grepher 16:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, are you arguing for the case that Zero Mission is a sequel to Metroid rather than a prequel? Well, I'll be darned. The Missing Link 23:52, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Zero Mission's events take place before Metroid. Samus Aran's telling of those events takes place after Metroid. Dai Grepher 02:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, the Metroid Prime 2 bonus disc presents the exact same timeline, in English. Details are further up on this page. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Andre says that the fact that Zero Mission is a remake is indisputable. Why then, is there so little evidence for this supposed fact, and why is there so much evidence against it? Poiuytman says that the background story is the same. Why then, does Nintendo.com state a completely different background story for Zero Mission? You can find this here: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856 Clearly Nintendo thinks that Zero Mission is not like Metroid at all. If they were the same story, then why would Nintendo not present the same prologue on their Zero Mission description page? Why would they create a new backstory for it? Even some of the NOA representatives have said that the two games are very different. Zero Mission also features bosses and areas that were not in the original Metroid. The common excuse is that Metroid was an 8-bit game, and they could not include all of those bosses in the game so Zero Mission remade it to be a more accurate Metroid. If that is the case, then why does Zero Mission neglect to feature a mini-boss from Metroid known as Fake Kraid? Zero Mission also contradicts Super Metroid, the game Metroid leads into, by having a different Mother Brain room design and battle. The room is revisited in Super Metroid, and Zero Mission’s room is nothing like the room that is revisited. Also, the battle with Mother Brain is completely different from Samus Aran’s memory of it in Super Metroid. Zero Mission is completely different from Metroid and it cannot possibly lead into Super Metroid.

Super Metroid's Tourian has significant structural differences from the Tourian in both Metroid and Zero Mission. I've already shown this here. Fake Kraid is not a significant part of Metroid; many players never encountered him because they took an alternate path to Kraid. Saying that Metroid leads into Super Metroid better than Zero Mission is invalid. --Poiuyt Man talk 18:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: You showed a comparison between the undamaged Metroid Tourian and the damaged Metroid Tourian. Those differences are clearly because of the explosion and reconstruction of the room before Mother Brain's into an elevator room. So again, you have no proof. Your point that Super Metroid's old Tourian was designed differently is moot. Fake Kraid was in Metroid, and he was not in Zero Mission. So if this is supposed to be an accurate telling of Samus' Metroid mission, then why isn't Fake Kraid included but still avoidable by the player as it was in Metroid? Nintendo did not put Fake Kraid in the game because the game is not a remake of Metroid!Dai Grepher 04:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Changes like these are what make the game a remake and not a port or upgraded port. --Pagrashtak 04:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai: Changes like those are what cause a remade game to make the entire series inconsistent. Why would Nintendo want to make their last best video game series inconsistent? Dai Grepher 19:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: “Nitpicking aside, I believe the main body of evidence comes from playing the games themselves, not reading the manuals or box text.” The games do not go into detail about the storyline though. However, the games do prove that Zero Mission cannot lead into Super Metroid, so that should be enough to prove that it is a prequel. ”If Miyamoto himself said that Zero Mission is a remake of Resident Evil, I would still consider it a remake of Metroid based on my experience of playing the games.” Now let us try a more realistic scenario, such as Yoshio Sakamoto saying that Zero Mission is a prequel. Would you still believe that it is a remake then? Dai Grepher 22:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

...WHAT? Yes, that's assuming he said it. You've just proven that you are actually focusing on hypothetical arguments now that you have no real proof! - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:11, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
Dai Grepher: I asked someone else a question. That is not proof or evidence regarding the discussion. Stay on topic next time. However, to counter your point, since you would believe Sakamoto, then what do you say to the IGN interview where Sakamoto says, "I wouldn't necessarily call it a remaking of the backstory."? So since Sakamoto does not call it a remake, what do you call it? Dai Grepher 04:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, problem: If it's not a remake, why did he say necessarly? For the Hell of it? - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:50, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
When someone says "not necessarily", through connotative usage and common sense, it is not a synonym for "no". Using the dictionary definition for every word in a sentence is not a consistent way to determine the meaning of that sentence. Any automated translation service can demonstrate that. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:02, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Automated translation services? First of all, I am using common sense, not some flawed program. Second, I am not translating anything. Third, "I wouldn't necessarily" does mean "no". "Not necessarily" can mean "perhaps not" but he did not say "not necessarily", he said "I would not" which means "no". Dai Grepher 19:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai, let's place your quote in context:
"What challenges did you face in reworking or reinventing a new storyline for the character in Zero Mission?"
"I wouldn't necessarily call it a remaking of the backstory. We've taken this opportunity to explore the backstory a little bit more. With Metroid Zero Mission not using text-based messaging or language in the game, we've used more visual cinematics to express the story through her recollections or memory."
Sakamoto is not talking about the in-game events, he's talking about the backstory told through cinematics. This refers to her childhood on Zebes, which is shown in particular through the pre-Chozo-suit cinematic. More of these cinematics might have been planned at the time, but it seems that the final game decided to use "text-based messaging" after all, since the intro text now tells us that Zebes was Samus' home. So Samus still grew up on Zebes, raised by the Chozo, as was told in the Super Metroid comic, and the Japanese online manga. So yes, Sakamoto is right in saying that the backstory was not remade; Zero Mission doesn't contradict the story set by these previous sources. However, his quote has nothing to do with the correlation between Metroid, Zero Mission, and Super Metroid. --Poiuyt Man talk 15:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: The entire game is composed of Samus' recollections and memories. That is what the prologue of Zero Mission establishes at the beginning of the game. Samus Aran states this as she lands on Zebes. "Now, I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... my so-called Zero Mission." Then the text involving her escape from the planet show that this is a story that she is remembering. The cinema scenes regarding Kraid and Ridley are the same as the kind regarding her childhood. Sakamoto said that he would not necessarily call this story a remaking of the backstory, more like exploring it more. So in the case of Metroid, the entire storyline does not remake, but rather expands on backstory with a well-made prequel. In response to A Link to the Past, if you would look up the word "necessarily" in the dictionary and would learn what it means, you would know that it makes no difference to Sakamoto's statement of Zero Mission not being a remake of backstory. Dai Grepher 20:16, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In the same paragraph, he says it explores the back story more. More than what?

Dai Grepher: More than the other Metroid games have done, such as Metroid's reference to the Metroids and Samus' origins, Metroid II's reference to the Metroids and the appearance of Chozo statues on SR-388, Super Metroid's reference to Zebes' history like the Wrecked Ship and the acid rain on the surface, Metroid Prime's references to Chozo lore and the creation of the Metroids to combat the X, etc. Zero Mission explores all of that a little more by showing the culture and capabilities that the Chozo once possessed, as well as the time period when control of Zebes shifted from the Chozo to the Space Pirates. Dai Grepher 00:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If he thinks it's a prequel, then wouldn't he state it? Or why would he say this game explores the backstory some more? Are you saying that ANYONE on this planet would say "Explore the backstory more" in regard to a backstory that was never expressed? If it were considered the same story but with additional information from Samus, it wouldn't be a remake, it would be expanding on that plot. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Why would he want to state the obvious, as well as spoil the game for the readers? Dai Grepher 00:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

WHAT are you talking about? He explicetly stated that this game explores the backstory mode. So, either the backstory is from a past game, or Sakamoto doesn't understand how to use words properly. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: You are reading between the lines and putting words in Sakamoto's mouth. "We've taken this opportunity to explore the backstory a little more..." means that Zero Mission explores the backstory more than a game that would not if it were not a prequel. Zero Mission comes before Metroid, therefore it explores the backstory more. This backstory is the backstory of the series, not Metroid. Dai Grepher 19:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Because the fans and the game reporters, you know, WANT to hear even the obvious things explicitly. How many times has Nintendo been asked timeline questions about the Zelda series, how many times did they ask did they ask for specific details regarding multiple games' backstories? You're painting yourself into a corner from which you cannot escape, Dai. On one hand, the only thing that will clear up all the argument and allow you to steamroller the argument would be for Sakamoto to have said precisely the obvious "spoiler" the game is to the fans; on the other hand, you've just admitted that that's one thing he would never do. There is no known other bridge which you can use to prove your theory, and you've just admitted that that last bridge can never be there. The Missing Link
Dai Grepher: Who cares what people want to hear? What matters is what Sakamoto wants to reveal. As far as I know, whenever Nintendo has been asked about the Zelda series and its timeline, they have declined to answer, given a completely new and unheard of timeline only to retract it later, or said that they had some mysterious document that detailed the entire timeline. The fact is that game creators do not want to paint themselves into a corner from which they cannot escape. That is why Nintendo has not commented about Zelda's timeline. I did not say that Sakamoto would never do that. I said that he would not do that in the interview before some people have a chance to play the game. How you come up with the things you do is beyond me. Even if Sakamoto never said anything more about Zero Mission, the fact that it is a prequel is still proven correct from all of the game evidence and the facts about the storyline.Dai Grepher 19:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nintendo has released at least three Metroid timelines over the past few years, and has not retracted any of them. The team that works on Zelda is not the same group of people that work on Metroid. And unlike Zelda, the Metroid games make obvious references to each other, so the story order is not much of a mystery. Each new Metroid timeline has inserted additional games into the timeline without changing the order of the previous games:
  1. [5] This timeline, from a 2003 version of Metroid.jp, places Prime between Metroid 1 & 2, and Fusion after Super Metroid.
  2. [6] After Metroid.jp was updated in May 2004, this timeline placed Zero Mission between Metroid and Metroid Prime. The Zero Mission point on the timeline splits off from Metroid's point, suggesting a close correlation.
  3. [7] (click Bonus Disc FAQ at bottom of page) This timeline is present on the Metroid Prime 2 Bonus Disc, which was available from three sources: later North American versions of Metroid Prime; as a reward from Nintendo.com for registering five GameCube games; or as an optional bonus for subscribing to Nintendo Power. The timeline is identical to the previous one, with the addition of MP2 inbetween Prime and Return of Samus.
Metroid Prime 3 and Metroid Prime: Hunters have not been released yet, and their place in the timeline is unconfirmed. --Poiuyt Man talk 21:59, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: NOA said that information regarding the games and their placement does not exist. That timeline of yours is only a rough draft, a vague idea. Dai Grepher 16:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nintendo of Japan overrules Nintendo of America as a primary source when the game is made in Japan. The Missing Link 23:52, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You asked a question, Dai. I answered the question. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean that my answer is any less relevant than your question, hypothetical as it may have been, was. The Missing Link 23:32, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: What question did you answer? I did not see an answer of whether or not you would agree with Sakamoto if he were to say that Zero Mission is a prequel. Besides, I did not ask you the question in the first place, so why would you feel obligated to answer it? Dai Grepher 16:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically, you asked, "Why would he want to state the obvious, as well as spoil the game for the readers?" I answered. The Missing Link 23:52, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New Evidence

Dai Grepher: I have found new evidence that the remake side has not made excuses for yet. I found this in Metroid Prime and Prime 2. First, Pirate Data shows this: “Fall of Zebes Space Pirate encrypted data decoded. Zebes has fallen. All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities.”

The underground facilities in Zero Mission were not destroyed! Samus can revisit them and see that only Tourian has been damaged, and even then only in a small portion where there were no Space Pirates to begin with.

“Our research frigates Orpheon, Siriacus and Vol Paragorm were in orbit at zero hour and managed to retreat. Frigate Orpheon is now docked at Vortex Outpost. Orpheon's cargo appears to have a 100% survival rate: Metroids are healthy but on restricted feeding schedules due to uncertain supply status. We are ready to begin researching on Metroids and other promising life-forms. Security status remains at code Blue: no signs of pursuit from the Hunter.”

When Samus goes to Tourian we see a cinema scene of Metroids feeding on a Space Pirate. A closer inspection of Tourian reveals many dead Space Pirates, all killed by Metroids. First, how can this be considered Samus’ handy work or destruction of the facility as the first part of the quote states? Second, how can these pirates get any of these Metroids off-world when they cannot even control them in Tourian? Zero Mission shows a limited understanding of the Metroids, and it shows that the Pirates had little to no control over them. Add to this the fact that the Space Pirate Mother ship was destroyed and was not even able to get off-world. This leaves Metroid to once again hold the entire series together. In Metroid, the Pirates showed advanced knowledge of the Metroids in their plan to expose the Metroids to beta rays. Tourian’s containment was also successful, and the possibility for off-world transportation exists. Moreover, the underground areas of Zebes were destroyed in Metroid, as seen by the rebuilt bases in Super Metroid. Once again, this proves that Metroid must exist as a separate mission in order for the entire series to be consistent.

The next evidence comes from Metroid Prime 2. “Last night at chow, Angseth starts talking about some bounty hunter and how she blew up a planet full of Space Pirates. I told her I didn't believe in fairy tales like that, and she took it personal. I just find it hard to believe that one person took out an entire Space Pirate base, that's all. But if she wants to believe in this Samus, or Bigfoot, or Santa Claus, she can.” –PFC I. Crany

This information is very interesting. This information is likely referring to Super Metroid, since that is the only game with a planetary explosion that destroys Pirates and their bases. Metroid Prime would then have to come after Super Metroid to prevent conflict with the Last Metroid fact, which would place responsibility for the quote from Prime on Super Metroid rather than Metroid. Since pirates are destroyed and have the ability to control Metroids in Super Metroid, it is possible. While this would weaken Metroid’s case for existing as a separate mission, it would also crush any timeline that the remake side has presented thus far. Since Metroid has more to support it as a separate mission, I see no problem with this. So even if you can come up with some excuse for the Primes to come before Super Metroid and save your bonus disc timeline, you still have no argument against the fact that Zero Mission cannot lead into Metroid Prime, as Metroid does. Dai Grepher 16:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  1. From Merrian-Webster, to destroy is "to ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of". That certainly describes Zebes after both Metroid and Zero Mission.
Dai Grepher: The Pirate log clearly states that the ground personnel were killed by Samus or the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities. The bases in Zero Mission are not destroyed at all, except for one small area in Tourian that held no pirates anyway. You can see this if you go back to those areas after obtaining the fully powered suit. The only things that could have killed any Pirates left in the bases are massive cave in's, explosions, quakes and cavern openings, etc, and Zero Mission shows that the facilities are as good as they were the minute Samus first found them. Metroid on the other hand shows nothing, leaving the possibility for great destruction to take place. The fact that many of the facilities are structured differently and have new areas is proof of that. Dai Grepher 02:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The primary location for their base of operations was Tourian. Thus, their underground facilities place (Tourian) was destroyed. The Space Pirates got their butts handed to them. Am I not reading something in this that I should be? Simply put, it still is pretty accurate. The Missing Link 04:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: More like reading into it. The message does not state that their underground facility or underground facilities place was destroyed. The message says that their underground facilities were destroyed. The means each and every area was destroyed, not a small section of one area. This does not happen is Zero Mission. Therefore Prime cannot be talking about Zero Mission. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Prove that the only Metroids that were in existence at the Zebes station were the ones you saw in the game. Simply put, you can't. Obviously Metroids can be contained by force fields and, to a lesser extent, glass, as seen in Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2. However, even were I to ignore that point, how indeed would they get them off-planet if they couldn't control them in either Metroid or Zero Mission? Since you seem to like disregarding the Metroid manual (which claims Samus is a male rather than a female), there is no evidence that the handlers of the Metroids in Metroid did any better a job than in Zero Mission since they're wandering about just as freely as they were in Zero Mission. Furthermore, the quote you referenced from Prime mentions that there were three ships with only one surviving. At best between the two games, only one Space Pirate ship is ever mentioned; thus, it is an easy possibility that the ship that is destroyed in Zero Mission is either Siriacus or Vol Paragorm, and Orpheon, being unmentioned in the original story and the (potential) remake of the story escaping unseen.
Dai Grepher: You are getting off topic. First of all, which time period are you referring to? Zero Mission or Metroid? Second, it does not really matter. What matters is how to contain them. The methods you suggested are correct, however my point is that the Space Pirates did not know what those methods were in Zero Mission. If they did, then why did the Metroids escape their containment and drain the energy from every Pirate in Tourian? Clearly the Pirates had no control, and since this is the case, how then can they transport these newly discovered Metroids off of Zebes? The answer is that they did not. They lost. However, since that part of Tourian was never destroyed, the Pirates could go back and check where they had failed the first time. That data helped them, and once the Space Pirates detected the Galactic Research vessel returning to HQ from SR388 they set out to attack it. Once they did, they found the life-form known as Metroid sealed in a dormant state. The data from the researches gave the Pirates the knowledge and ability to contain the Metroids, and thus control them in Metroid 1. The knowledge of the beta rays revealed ways to control their reproduction and in Metroid their numbers we much more limited. Moreover, Metroid's Tourian has no corpses littering its halls. The fact that they wandered around freely could very well have been to stop Samus Aran from reaching Mother Brain, in which case they were intentionally released. Then we have the Pirate message stating that the underground facilities are destroyed, which can only happen in Metroid. Your hypothesis that Zero Mission must be what the message refers to just because it is the only game with a spaceship is baseless. That ship was never referred to as Siriacus or Vol Paragorm in Zero Mission, and this is in a game that was released after Metroid Prime. If Zero Mission was supposed to connect to Metroid Prime, then why didn't Nintendo make any connection? On top of that, the message says that the ships were in orbit at Zero Hour and were able to retreat. Zero Mission's ship was on the surface and never left. Plus, the message never said that the ships were destroyed, just that only the Metroid cargo of one had a 100% survival rate.
Dai Grepher: You are also forgetting the fact that Zero Mission's order was for Samus to go to Zebes alone and investigate a rumor. Why would the Pirates retreat from Zebes at zero hour? In Zero Mission they stayed on the surface and continued to research Chozodia. In Metroid 1 on the other hand, the manual states that the Galactic Federation unleashed a full assault on Planet Zebes but failed. Mostly because Zebes' rock is a natural fortifier but I believe there were three more reasons. These three reasons are Siriacus, Vol Paragorm, and Orpheon. They provided the counter assault to the Federation when their Zebes bases were still operational. And what else would those three Space Pirate ships want to retreat from except a Federation army once their bases fell? I also do not understand what you mean when you say that I disregard the Metroid manual. That manual is the backbone of my entire presentation. Dai Grepher 02:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm referring to both, namely because, in order to prove that the remake theory holds, they become the same game in a rebuttal. Secondly, they could have been purposefully let out by the Space Pirates in order to stop Samus. Perhaps, since Samus had already disposed of Kraid and Ridley and a lot of enemies and a lot of Space Pirates, they thought their best plan was to sic the new untested creatures out on Samus. They would incur losses, but oh well. To stop Samus by losing people would be, inevitably, better than losing completely. Thirdly, the ship had no direct name, so there is no proof to link the two just as there is no proof to say there is no link. As far as why it is without name, I reckon that the development team for Zero Mission and the Primes are different, and thus they have minimal overlap of staff. The games were being built concurrently, after all. And, other than the name of the region, there is no text in the Zero Mission game, and they didn't want to list it in the manual because that was the major surprise of the game.
Perhaps the Space Pirates took off and left Zebes because Samus had succeeded in destroying one of their ships when perhaps the Federation had failed. Now that the Federation had a method to destroy their base AND one of their ships, basic military strategy means that you don't keep your armies where the enemy expects to find you when they are able to destroy you. They knew about Zebes, they probably knew about the other ships too. Thus, they probably hightailed it out of there so, you know, they wouldn't get blown to smithereens. The Missing Link 04:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Just because you think they can become the same does not mean they are the same. You have to pick one or the other as being official. Both stories are very different and both have different ending events. The Space Pirates may have turned the Metroids loose on Samus, but they would have left the area before doing so. It is illogical to think that the Pirates simply let the Metroids out before Samus arrived and did not even consider the fact that the Metroids would feast on their life forces and thus weakening Tourian's defenses. So to answer your question, in Zero Mission's timeframe, I do not know if there were Metroids elsewhere. Samus' objective was to exterminate them, so she probably killed them all. Even if some remained, they were not transported off of Zebes since the Pirates could not even control the ones they did catch. In Metroid's timeframe, I also cannot say that there were no Metroids other than the ones seen. However, this is what makes Metroid leading into Metroid Prime possible. Metroid Prime relies on the unknown in Metroid and the possibility that there were more Metroids that could have been exported from Zebes. Also, Metroid can be completed without killing all of the Metroids, as the orders to Samus were to defeat the Metroids and destroy Mother Brain, while in Zero Mission these orders were reversed. You are misunderstanding the meaning of proof when it comes to the spaceship issue. You need evidence to prove that a link between Metroid Prime and the Pirate Mother Ship exists. If you have no evidence, then there is no link. I think it was you who told me on VGF some time ago that it is impossible to prove a negative because a negative is something that does not exist and thus no evidence exists for it. Well, no evidence of a link between Zero Mission's ship and Metroid Prime exists. Therefore I can say for certain that there is no link between Zero Mission and Metroid Prime. Moreover, I did prove that no link exists in Metroid Prime with evidence that Zero Mission's ship was not in orbit and did not retreat, as Metroid Prime states. The fact that each game was made at the same time should be the best way to create a consistent storyline. Since Metroid Prime was meant to follow Metroid and Zero Mission was supposedly meant to be Metroid, I think the development teams would have made a connection somewhere. Also, what do you mean there is no text in Zero Mission? What about when Samus talks about how the timing of her escape could not have been any worse? There was an opportunity to say, "with only an energy pistol at my side, I was left to face the dangers of the Pirate Ship Siriacus alone." Of course then they would have created a plot hole, since Siriacus is stated to have escaped.
The point is that the Space Pirates did not retreat after the destruction of Tourian. They stayed on the planet and robbed Chozodia of its information and technology. Therefore their Zebes bases did not fall, and the Pirates did not retreat at zero hour. This contradicts Metroid Prime. Therefore, Zero Mission as a remake contradicts Metroid Prime and Super Metroid. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The quote from Echoes could easily be heresay. The authenticity of the speaker remains unconfirmed. The Missing Link 00:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: True enough. However, it does raise the possibility. It is possible that this is another snowballed rumor, as the male cyborg rumor was, but there could in fact be some truth behind this. Angseth displays great admiration for Samus and wishes that she could do the same things. She also gets offended when Crany expresses his disbelief. The logs indicate that Angseth knows her stuff when it comes to Samus Aran. The only game to fit this tale is Super Metroid. By the way, do you have any evidence that this is not true? What makes you think that Metroid Prime comes before Super Metroid besides the flawed timelines? Is there any in-game evidence? Dai Grepher 02:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't understand the first part at all; do you think you could provide a little more background information, and tell me what events in which game that you're referring to? As to the second part, I understand better but I don't follow your deductions. Are you now saying that the official Nintendo timelines are wrong with their placements of Metroid Prime? There's not even any ambiguity to allow you to question that. Andre (talk) 00:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: First, Echoes. Angseth boasts about Samus Aran blowing up an entire planet full of Space Pirates. The only game that features this is Super Metroid. Thus Echoes is after Super Metroid. Since Super Metroid has the Last Metroid, this means that Metroid Prime must also take place after Super Metroid to avoid conflict with how many Metroids exist at this time.
The first part summarized is, the Pirates cannot control the Metroids in Zero Mission, obvious since they were all killed by them. Thus, they cannot ship them off-world thus leading into Metroid Prime as the Pirate message states. Metroid 1 shows more knowledge and control of the Metroids, thus it leads into Metroid Prime. The Pirate message states that all ground personnel are assumed killed by Samus or dead because of the destruction of the underground facilities. Zero Mission shows that the facilities are fine. Metroid does not let us see what happened. Super Metroid supports Metroid because many of the facilities are rebuilt or drastically altered. Thus Zero Mission does not lead into Metroid Prime and Metroid does. Lastly, Zero Mission has one ship on the surface. It does not leave Zebes once Mother Brain is defeated. It is destroyed on the surface. Metroid ends after Mother Brain is defeated. This leaves the story open for the possibility for the three Space Pirate ships Siriacus, Vol Paragorm, and Orpheon to retreat from Zebes with their cargo of Metroids. The reason they retreat is most likely because the Federation can now go in for the kill since Samus has crippled the enemy. The Federation does not launch a full-scale attack on Zebes in Zero Mission, instead Samus is sent there to investigate a rumor of a deadly alien species. The link of Zero Mission's description regarding this backstory is provided further up on the page and is an official Nintendo website document. Dai Grepher 02:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's already been stated that Prime is after Metroid and before II. This is undisputable. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:36, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: Stated by whom? What evidence did they provide? Dai Grepher 03:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
By Nintendo of Japan.
Dai Grepher: What evidence did they provide? When did they say this? Who specifically said it? I have game evidence that it comes after Super Metroid. Some NOJ rep's word cannot overrule what is in the game. So unless this is a recent quote from Sakamoto, then it is not evidence. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Still, being that it could be heresay means that it can't be used as direct evidence. The Missing Link 04:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: There is no proof that it is a rumor. The series has not confirmed that as a rumor and the series has not placed Metroid Prime before Super Metroid with past storyline references or dates. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to the timelines stated beforehand, the Nintendo Cube Club also confirmed Metroid Prime's placement in the timeline[8]. According to the Internet Archive, this article was put up a month before Prime's North American release. --Poiuyt Man talk 05:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: So an unofficial club stated Metroid Prime's timeline placement before the game was even released or fully played, and they stated this three years ago? That is an unreliable source to say the least. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To requote: "All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities."

Hmm, presumed? If they haven't confirmed the deaths of their personnel, that means they didn't re-enter Tourian and see the bodies littered on the ground. If they didn't enter Tourian, they couldn't have confirmed its destruction -- they probably assumed it was destroyed due to the large explosion seen on the surface (visible in the post-Mother Brain cinematic of Zero Mission), and the loss of communication from Mother Brain. Since Samus killed Ridley, the Space Pirate leader, they may have assumed that she killed the rest of the pirates as well.

Dai Grepher: Sir, you are taking a quote and making your own storyline out of it. First of all, the message applies to Metroid, not Zero Mission. Second, the presumption is that all ground personnel are dead. That does not mean that they did not check Tourian after Zero Mission and find dead Space Pirates. The presumption is that there are no survivors in any other areas because of the destruction of the underground facilities. Like I said before, Zero Mission's facilities were not destroyed, therefore the message must be referring to Metroid. This is actually off topic, but I felt compelled to respond to your misunderstanding of the message. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware that Prime was referring to Metroid in the message, since Zero Mission hadn't been released yet. My point is that the wording of the quote allows it to fit the new details of Zero Mission as well. --Poiuyt Man talk 14:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: But the wording of the quote does not allow it to fit the new details of Zero Mission because the new details of Zero Mission were not made to fit Metroid Prime. Zero Mission's facilities were not destroyed, and the Pirate message does not say that they assumed that the explosion killed some of their ground personnel. They said that they presume all ground personnel are dead because of Samus or, again, the destruction of the underground facilities. Again, that does not happen in Zero Mission, thus Zero Mission was made to contradict Metroid Prime. Dai Grepher 19:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The loss of control over the Metroids in Tourian seems to be recent (in relation to game events), if the entering-Tourian cutscene is any indication. This may be due to panic over the death of Ridley.

Dai Grepher: Or maturity of the Metroids that were captured. In any case, the Pirates lost control of the Metroids and were destroyed by them. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Metroids are native to SR388, not Zebes. According to the manual, the pirates obtained the Metroid species from a research station, and later brought samples of the Metroid species to Zebes for research:

Dai Grepher: I know where they are native to. I am saying that there were Metroids on Zebes in Zero Mission and both Samus and the Pirates went there because of a rumor that a deadly alien species existed there. What you said is true of Metroid, but not Zero Mission. http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856

Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"In the year 20X5 of the Cosmic Calendar, a terrible incident occurred. The Space Pirates attacked a deep-space research vessel and seized capsules containing samples of an unknown species that had been discovered on planet SR388."

There's no indication that the pirates attempted to evacuate the Metroids off Zebes; Frigate Orpheon may have kept some of the spare samples aboard the whole time.

Dai Grepher: Nintendo.com says otherwise, both on the page above and on Zero Mission's official website. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I now see what you were referring to with that Nintendo.com summary. It doesn't make sense that the pirates would come to Zebes to extract the Metroids when they should already have samples of the species. This is probably the only valid inconsistency you've found. --Poiuyt Man talk 14:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: You mean the only inconsistency for which you have no explanation, logical or otherwise. So in that case, what is your opinion of Zero Mission in light of this new evidence? Dai Grepher 19:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Metroid Prime 2 quote has an unreliable in-game source, and how Samus "blew up a planet" may be an exaggeration of the explosions erupting from Tourian and the Mother Ship, since the next sentence refers to the base rather than the planet. --Poiuyt Man talk 06:24, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: In Metroid's manual, Planet Zebes was referred to as a Pirates' fortress. Dai Grepher 01:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Zero Mission's manual has since revised that sentence, from:
"After a desperate search, the Federation Police have at last found the pirates' headquarters, the fortress planet Zebes,"
to:
"After a desperate search, the Federation Police discovered the Space Pirates' base of operations on the fortified planet Zebes."
The context has changed to clarify that the base is on the planet, not the planet itself. --Poiuyt Man talk 14:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai Grepher: That could still mean that the base is planet Zebes, since the facilities are still within the planet. Also, the person who refers to it as a base is Crany and not Angseth, who is the source to begin with. Also, Crany may see the destruction of the Pirate base as the unbelievable story. This does not somehow mean that Samus did not blow up the planet on which the base was located. We must also consider Crany's thoughts on the issue. Perhaps he refuses to believe the story because he would rather believe that the Federation is strongest force against the Space Pirates. He dismisses something because he would rather believe something else. This reminds me of a theory I once proved to be incorrect. Dai Grepher 19:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

With Zero Mission, you've a tiny bit of ambiguity to maneuver in. But as to the placement of the other games, it's entirely non-negotiable and merely hurts your credibility. Andre (talk) 20:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: Who are you trying to fool? I have been given no credibility in this debate, as seen in the fact that you've changed the page to be sided despite the facts that prove otherwise. At the very least you would have allowed the page to be non-partisan had I been given some credibility in the discussion. All you do is dictate what is posted on Wikipedia and bully others that have evidence to counter your personal belief. You also neglect to present any evidence as to why the fact that Metroid Prime 2 could easily be after Super Metroid is non-negotiable. There is also no ambiguity in Zero Mission to allow any kind of remake timeline to work. If this is so, then post your timeline from the beginning of Samus' Zero Mission to the end of Super Metroid right below this paragraph. Dai Grepher 22:53, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've been mostly staying out of this argument, as I believe it is mostly pointless - it has become clear to me that neither side will succeed in convincing the other, regardless of who is "right". I feel compelled to point out two things: 1) Drop the superiority. This is directed at both sides of the argument, by the way. This issue is not a true flat earth problem, as neither side is 100% clear-cut. I personally believe that Zero Mission is a remake; however, it does contain substantially more content than many standard remakes, so I can see how someone might consider it a different game. However, this argument is limited in my opinion, given the similarities between the two games and their manuals, as well as statements from Nintendo referring to the "true story", etc. of Samus's mission. My point is that neither side should assume that their point has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and needs to drop the attitude of such. 2) Dai Grepher, you are a clear minority, whether your statements are true or not, and you have come here attempting to change what was we must assume was previously a unanimous belief here at Wikipedia. As such, you must concede that the burden of proof is upon you, and you should not expect the contents of the article to reflect your view until you have swayed us.

I am surprised at your statements that Andrevan "dictates what is posted" and "bullies others" according to his "personal beliefs"; many of us share his position and post as such because we believe so, there is no need for "bullying". Your beliefs are no less personal than his own. And I'm doubly surprised because I think Andre has been one of the best about treating you with civility, even attempting to seek mediation or arbitration to resolve the debate, yet you seem disinclined to return the favor, which does not help your argument.

So, Dai Grepher - since we are at an impasse, is there any form of resolution upon which we can agree that will resolve this matter? --Pagrashtak 00:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: How am I supposed to sway people that refuse to accept the facts that I present? I know the burden of proof falls upon me at first, but after proving that it is a prequel the burden then falls upon the remake side. They have presented no factual evidence to support their theory, only a few obscure timelines that do not even detail the events. The only form of resolution that I will accept is arbitration. I want this issue brought up to a jury of non-partisan and unbiased arbitrators, I want both sides to present their evidence and counter evidence, and I want the arbitration committee to make a decision on which timeline should be displayed on Wikipedia based on the evidence. No one on the remake side has wanted this because they all know that any non-biased person that reads the evidence will see that the game is obviously a prequel. In the unlikely case that the committee rule it a remake or that the article make no statement for either side, I will accept the decision and drop the issue. Dai Grepher 19:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such THING as a content dispute committee. All users are technically on this vapor committee, and the users have ruled for remake. I ask you again, why is the evidence you provided also act as if the story had already been told? Are you saying that one part is true, and one part is wrong? - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dai, we already found consensus. If you want to try to bring this to ArbCom you can, but they don't rule on content disputes, they deal with uncooperative users... which suggests that they actually might be helpful. Andre (talk) 22:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Since arbitration is the only resolution acceptable to Dai Grepher, I suggest that we stop all debate over the matter on this talk page, as it will accomplish nothing. Dai, you may attempt to seek arbitration if you wish, and we will abide by it. If, however, arbitration is denied I think you must either drop the matter or, if you insist, put it to another vote and yield to consensus. Can we agree to this? --Pagrashtak 22:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with arbitration, if it will accomplish something. I'm certainly tired of arguing. --Poiuyt Man talk 01:39, 20 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I know I'm not supposed to be here and all, but being that this is the last topic is the last bit of unfinished Wikibusiness I had here before leaving, I'm still poking my nose in on a semi-regular basis. I applaud Pagrashtak's solution of the issue, as I definitely think that finishing the matter rather than leaving the issue to simmer until the next round is the correct solution. (Also, Dai, thank you for the words you wrote below.) The Missing Link 22:46, 20 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Last chance before arbitration

http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/8fc2b41a-8547-4c17-88cd-cfc5c7ae81a2.mov

Dai: The Zero Mission commercial states that Zero Mission is Samus Aran's first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter. Metroid's manual clearly states that numerous missions came before that in which Samus was also a bounty hunter. Therefore, Zero Mission cannot be a remake of a later mission. I'll change the article to reflect this fact. If anyone disagrees then we will move on to arbitration. For this case I propose that each side compile a presentation of evidence supporting their favored theory and evidence against the opposing theory. I am willing to wait for the remake side to create one, seeing as how there is so little evidence supporting the remake theory and also little opposing the prequel theory. Then when both sides are ready we will present this to the arbitration committee along with this discussion page.Dai Grepher 07:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Signing Out

I will no longer be taking part in this discussion until further notice. Some bad news came to me today about someone I deeply care about that will most likely affect the next several months of my life, and it has caused me to take a very close look at my life and reorder its priorities. Arguing that Metroid and Zero Mission are one and the same story is not one of those priorities at this time, and for that matter, upholding the integrity of many Wikipedia articles is also not a life priority. I am going on a Wikibreak of unknown duration as this passes.

Good luck to those still upholding the fight. The Missing Link 05:31, 17 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dai Grepher: I hope and pray that you may have the strength to endure this hardship. However I also pray that this hardship passes peacefully and not have to test the limits of what you can handle. Dai Grepher 19:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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