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November 15

It's snow much harder to shovel

I find myself with a gravel driveway for the first time this winter, and don't quite know how to clear the snow off it. A snow blower would send gravel flying at high speeds, and shoveling seems likely to result in large quantities of gravel tossed on the lawn, as well. So, what do other people with gravel driveways do when it snows ? Don't worry, there's snow wrong answer. StuRat (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There's really nothing you can do, other than attempting to get as much off as possible with a shovel. Usually just driving over it enough will help by compacting it, and since it's gravel anyway, you won't have to worry too much about traction. This came up from a quick Google search. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 05:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Forget the snow blower for now. If the winter where you live is long then the best thing is to drive over it now until it gets packed down. It will then resemble and feel like a regular cement roadway. Then with the next snowfall you can use the snowblower. Of course you should have treated it like a runway and put down a binding agent combined with regular packing and watering during the summer month. This would then have allowed you to grade and use the snowblower during the winter. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Scatter Rock Salt over the drive, especially where the wheels will drive so as to create traction - and drive it into the snow - literally, by driving over it several times. And repeat the exercise until the snow stops falling. But scrape your shoes clean on a doormat, or better still, remove them, before trudging the salt through the house. 92.21.135.184 (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Except that Halite your car, the reinforced concrete in the garage and other steel don't mix too well. Plus there is a limited temperature range and it's not good for plants and lawns. Save your garden from salt damage seems to say that it works to -9C but I have seen other sites (commercial) that indicate it works to -30C. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the diff may be that dry salt only works to -9C, but, if you "get it started" by adding some water, it can work down to -30C. However, I don't want to destroy my lawn, car, and the concrete portion of my driveway, though, and salting the driveway seems to do just that, as you've noted. StuRat (talk) 15:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well Stu - it seems you're stuck between a Rock(salt) and a hard place, which might just mean you're going to have to park your car out on the street, which will probably be gritted and salted by your local Traffic dept., anyway. And as a regular "salter" for 30+ years living in the icy wastes of central Scotland, and given the quantities and relatively short periods of use, in my experience, I can only say that the resilience of my verdant lawn and the concrete base of my garage must be infinitely superior to yours. Only saying..............92.21.135.184 (talk) 16:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Driving over snow repeatedly will turn it into ice, or at least that's what it does here. It's much more difficult to shovel after that and much worse for anyone trying to walk on it. Maybe it doesn't do that on gravel though? Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If it partially melts and then refreezes, it will turn to ice (that's why skiing during sunny weather is horrible - the sun melts the snow then it freezes overnight and you end up skiing on a steeply tilted ice rink...). I think you would have to compact it a lot for it to turn to ice without having been melted first, though. --Tango (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Move somewhere warmer.--212.139.78.231 (talk) 09:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe global warming will solve the problem in another 50 years or so. StuRat (talk) 16:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I've concluded that I'll shovel when I get enough snow so I can shovel the top layers off without getting to the gravel. When I get down to the gravel I'll leave it alone. If it forms into ice, I'll salt it. StuRat (talk) 16:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You should have been a politician - you have just demonstrated that you CAN please all the people all of the time. 92.20.215.140 (talk) 16:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

...but only if you're bisexual. StuRat (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, you don't have to be bisexual to be a politician, Stu. You just need to be prepared to fuck anyone, regardless of their sex or age. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Bisexual to shovel snow?? Reminds me of an old joke - What's the difference between a snowman and a snow-woman? S'no balls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.158.20 (talk) 01:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

...where you place the carrot ? StuRat (talk) 03:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ahh - but - that's getting to the root of the issue !!!!92.21.226.176 (talk) 20:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Was that an Australian joke or a carrot joke? DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was talking about placing the carrot on the snow man "down under". :-) StuRat (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Watching porn before an exam

I have heard that having sex before an important game helps sportsmen perform better. Does watching porn before the day of a VERY important exam have a similar effect? Thanks. This is very important. 122.161.173.212 (talk) 09:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought that the axiom was the other way round? Anyway it appears that either way it makes no difference, Sex Before Sport?, Sex Before Competition, The myths of sex before sport and Sex before the big game?. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Aw what a bummer :-/ 122.161.173.212 (talk) 09:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Could be worse, you might think these are (work safe) porn links. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

They did this on braniac and found that that people (specifically men) perform better in sport after sex. This is because there will be more testosterone in the bloodstream and it will increase muscle protein synthesis. However, the effects of that would not been seen immediately, so it is probably more psychological than anything else, ie increased confidence. I would guess that watching p0rn before an exam would just distract you and make you less able to concentrate on the exam. SN0WKITT3N 12:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with snow. i tried oncejust to realise what a bl;under it was as i could not switch my head off the"oh my god, harder" to the american civil warVikram79 (talk) 12:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is recent research that suggests that market traders' success is correlated with their level of testosterone. How much you want to extrapolate from one study is another matter. Does sexual activity "use up" the hormone, or lead to more production, for example? I don't know. But you may wish to learn more here. BrainyBabe (talk) 12:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

One obvious flaw in the theory that sex before an exam will improve performance is that higher testosterone levels only help with activities where physical strength and aggressiveness are needed. Not only won't these attributes assist you on a test, they may make it difficult to sit still and concentrate (as in Vikram79's example). So, the only way sex before an exam could help your grade is if it's with the teacher/instructor/professor. StuRat (talk) 14:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you were totally unprepared for the exam, the added testosterone could make it easier for you to scrunch your exam paper up into a ball, throw it and hit the examiner right between the eyes. Fribbler (talk) 14:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Having sex with the teacher may be counter-productive. They might have a flash of conscience, and think this way: "Hmm, I guess I really shouldn't have had sex with my student, being unethical and all. What if it comes out; my reputation and career will be f***ed. People will say I only gave them good marks because they slept with me, and we'll both be f***ed. I'd better mark them harder than I would otherwise have done, to make sure there can be no perception of favours being traded. At least, that way, even if my career goes down the toilet, their mark can stand and their whole life won't be ruined". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You're doing it wrong. You need to sleep with your teacher and then threaten to report them if they don't give you an A. --Tango (talk) 00:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We're not allowed to give legal advice here, but illegal advice is okay? :-) --Anonymous, 05:29 UTC, November 16, 2008.

We're not allowed to give legal or medical advice because such advice should always come from a licensed professional. There's no licensed profession for giving illegal advice (although one could consider "prisoner" to be, de facto, such a profession), ergo we can do so! --Tango (talk) 14:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be wary of whoever gives odd advice to cope with exams. As you know, in any competition there's such a thing as a "psych-out"[1]. You need to be wired for the focal thing – the exam, by keeping the brain clear and go to it fresh. Better to keep buzzy things on hold (and here's me thinking market traders' power was in those suits they wear...) Julia Rossi (talk) 07:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I liked this novel (paraphrased) way to cheat which Bart Simpson came up with: "I figured out a completely new way to cheat; first I make a list of facts which I think might be on the test, then I memorize them all. It's just like cheating with crib notes, but with no paper trail, so you can't ever get caught !". StuRat (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

What we have all overlooked in our efforts to be helpful is what sort of exam. If, for example, it is in anatomy or gymnastics, the porn videos might prove to be extremely misleading. If it is a mathematics exam, or one for say real estate qualifications, that's probably safe. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Another thing we may have overlooked is that we're talking about "watching" porn, as if that were all there is to the question. Not that I personally would know, of course, but I'm reliably informed that those who watch porn often find themselves engaging in other, er, solitary activities that result in fluid release. Not to mention dwarfism, hairy palms and insanity. If the activity in question is confined to visual enjoyment, then it may have less impact on exam performance. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No comment on the maths one but I'm sure there are some porn films which will mislead you for your real estate qualifications. For example, most hot women/guys/couples looking at a house don't want to try doing it in every single room with the agent so you'll be ill advised to recommend fondling clients as part of the sale process in an exam Nil Einne (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if the specific act of watching porn would help, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if masturbation is very helpful before an exam. Masturbation is extraordinary at relaxing the body and removing tension. I wouldn't recommend doing it in a school bathroom (that's just nasty), but I warmly recommend a quick wanking in the morning before school! And not just for that reason! 83.250.202.208 (talk) 09:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment A lot of people appear to be presuming the OP is male however that was never stated. Anyway to answer the question, if watching porn means you don't get a good nights sleep or miss out on that last minute cramming section then it may not help. On the other hand if it means you can concentrate on the exam rather then doing the hot hunk/gal next to you during the exam then it may Nil Einne (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Forcasting

How far can we compare forcasting as an element of assuming in general or financial point of view? and if they are synonymous "to a certain extent" which is the element of which? any suggestions would be gladly ambraced..Vikram79 (talk) 12:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't follow your question. Do you mean weather forecasting, stock market forecasts or something else ? StuRat (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

hi STUrat i mean customer behaviour forcasting in relation to the the changing markets trend effecting their behaviour in return effecting business decisions and the change in the management decisions.Vikram79 (talk) 17:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say trends in customer behavior can often be predicted based on economic conditions. For example, it was quite predictable that we would eventually use gasoline more quickly than we can produce it, which was certain to lead to shortages and skyrocketing gasoline prices, which, in turn, will shift customer demand to smaller cars and/or vehicles using alternative energy sources. However, the short term orientation of most automotive company CEO's led them to ignore this reality and focus on large, gasoline powered vehicles since they were more profitable in the short term.

Why this short term orientation ? The newer, low-cost transaction price of stock trades makes it possible now to trade stocks quickly, whereas previously any profits from such quick trades would have been eaten up by transaction costs. This then leads to stockholders who want quick profits, and have no concern for the long-term profitability of the company, as they will have sold all their stock by then. The CEO's and boards of directors then reflect their stockholder wishes, and make all decisions based on short term profitability only. The cure ? Higher taxes on stock sales if the stock has been held for a short period of time, and lower taxes if held for long periods of time. StuRat (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks STUrat, i have some clarity now.cheersVikram79 (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Names of parts of the body

List of human anatomical features doesn't answer this question. What is the name of the silver snake-like marking under the skin that represent sudden growth, e.g. during adolescence, or on pregant women's bellies? And does Wikipedia have a list of names for these odd parts of the body, like the philtrum or the hairline on the nape of the neck or all the individual toes or the frenulum under the tongue? Gather and label the obscurities, and bring order to the universe! BrainyBabe (talk) 12:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Stretch marks, or striae, aren't usually considered to be anatomical entities. They are a physical manifestation of rapid growth. Like wrinkles are signs of ageing. Fribbler (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

By Googling I found big toe, little toe, middle toe, toe 1 thru toe 5, the piggie who went to market etc. Many languages call them feet fingers. Not everything in the universe has a name. "There are stranger things in heaven and earth ...." Phil Burnstein (talk) 10:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

getting jobs when under 18 (really pissed off under 18 year old)

Im only after a part time job to make a bit of money, however i am finding it increasingly difficult. I am 17 and from the UK and had a job before (however it was working for the family business - i still got paid though!) and the only opportunities availible are all unpaid work experience placements (i've had plenty of those over the years!) and im not after that, what advice can you give me to be able to get a part time job (i constantly look everywhere & send CV's in and never get a reply)?, why is so hard in the UK to get one? i seriously gonna pretend to be 18 because it is getting annoying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.2.92 (talk) 14:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the UK, and I worked at a McDonalds part time when I was 16-18. Pretty horrible job, but they have no problem employing 16-17 year olds and the hours are very flexible. I had friends that got jobs at supermarkets at the same age. Where have you been trying? ~ mazca ^t|c 15:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What skills/abilities do you have ? What sort of job would you like ?86.202.29.124 (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)DT

I agree with Mazca above. OK, we are having a recession and there may not be as much dosh being splashed around by the consumer public - but we are only 6 weeks away from Christmas when most of the supermarkets and fast food chains will be hiring younger and cheaper casual staff. What about working in a garden centre or behind the scenes in Argos. What about being an usher or cleaner in a multi-plex cinema. All those jobs in my area of the UK seem to be filled by people your age. Mind you, at my age, all the policemen and doctors seem to be your age too !!! 92.21.135.184 (talk) 16:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about the UK. The job market is pretty tight everywhere, though. That means that "the ends of the distribution curve" find it hard to find employment. Forget jobs that ask you to mail in your CV. They are usually looking for regular employees. Traditional job market niches for minors like baby sitting, pet sitting and homework help might not be up your alley or have been commercialized where you are, so you'll have to see where you can fit in. Sit down and make a list of special abilities, skills or experience you can offer potential employers. Can you turn a hobby into a business? (Christmas is coming up. Some towns have bazaars. If you are good at crafts you could whip something up for sale. Flea markets are another avenue you might explore.) If you say you "constantly look" does that mean you do things like post notes offering your services on noticeboards in places like supermarkets and the library or are you just looking for job ads posted by potential employers? In a market like this you have to get active. Networking is key to any job hunt. Once you've narrowed down your profile and know what you can offer start spreading the word. Start from your usual social circles like church groups, relatives, sports team etc. Then go where your "customers" i.e. potential employers are. This may involve doing some volunteer work, starting up a new hobby, taking up a sport, joining a club, etc. Remember you are not doing this for the sake of doing it, but in order to meet people who might want to employ you or know s.o. who might employ you. Keep your eyes and ears open and see where someone needs assistance, then see how you could help and approach them with an offer. One thing that might help is a change in your appearance. If you are a jeans and sneakers or tattoo and piercing person you move yourself way farther to the edge of the curve. (There is the occasional job in the entertainment industry and such where it actually helps rather than hinders. But guess what, there are long lines waiting for that one.) What you want to do is convince employers that you are more responsible and grown up than they suspect. So lose the sneakers for shoes, disarm the metal arsenal and head for the "Prince William's cousin" or "Princess Diana's niece" look. There are jobs available that one can do online and/or freelance. They do usually require special skills, tough. Go google with all your abilities and see if s.th. pops up. Good luck. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

As an addendum, I'd strongly recommend against pretending you're 18. Most, if not all, reputable companies tend to want to confirm your details to your passport or similar before you start. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried asking in any locals bars and restaurants if they need anyone to wait on tables or wash up? Or local newsagents if they need anyone to deliver papers? Or supermarkets, as others have mentioned. Sending in CVs is a lost cause at your age, the only jobs you're likely to get are ones involve going into a place and asking if they want to hire anyone. --Tango (talk) 18:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Firstly - I suppose it's possible that there is something horribly wrong with your CV or whatever cover letter you sent with it. If you can find a professional (a careers expert at school/college perhaps) who could give it a look - that may help a whole lot. If you can get help with interview technique - grab that with both hands! Given how hard it is to get to an interview - you don't want to blow it by not having a great answer for the dreaded "What is your worst feature?" or "Why do you want to work here?" questions.

• Secondly - "cold calling" by sending out CV's in scatter-gun fashion is a process that may require sending a LOT of CV's before you get a response - so don't be too concerned if you send out (say) a dozen and don't get any results...send out two dozen - a hundred. Sometimes local unemployment offices can help you with free postage and stuff like that.

• Thirdly - what works a MILLION times better than sending out CV's "cold" is to network with friends & family. In the case of a not-"key-position" job (such as you might get at age 17 without lots of qualifications or experience) - the company will probably get an insane number of CV's for every position they have open. Probably 80% of the people who apply are qualified enough to do the work - so the poor human-resources person is faced with a pile of perhaps a couple of hundred CV's and just a couple of jobs to fill. Are they going to carefully read through a few hundred CV's and carefully sieve out the best? No. They are going to flip though them very quickly - rejecting almost all of them with nothing but a glance for the most trivial and superficial reasons. Then they'll call a handful of people for an interview...the process is more or less random.

So what you've got to do is to improve the odds by somehow standing out from the crowd. There have been lots of tricks proposed for this in the past - printing your CV on bizarre objects or packaging it weirdly - or using silly paper colors or shapes - but those are probably gimmicks that the HR person has seen a million times before. So I'm not sure that's a good plan - and I don't recommend it.

That means you need other ways to get noticed. Best of all - you want the HR person to be looking at your CV before the job has even been advertised yet...before it gets mixed up with a hundred other ones. What you want is for someone you know (or possibly someone who knows someone you know) who works at the company and knows that they need an employee to take your CV and present it by hand to the HR person. "Hey - I heard we need a new Widget nerdler! My sister's friend is a GREAT widget spangler - I bet he could nerdle widgets pretty good - he's a good kid - could you take a look at his CV!" Well, that's something the HR person can't easily ignore. While your friend's brother stands there in his office with a hopeful look on his face - the HR person pretty much has no choice but to at least read the CV. And with even a minimal a personal recommendation from an existing (and presumably, trusted) employee, your CV has a head start over all the others...which is all it needs if they are all pretty similar.

So it's a matter of how many people would do that for you. This is where the "Networking" thing comes in. You need to hit up every friend and relative (no matter how distant) for recommendations. Sit down and make a list of EVERYONE you know - then methodically go through that list - phone (or go and visit) all of them. If you have accounts on Facebook, MySpace or other social networking sites - make sure everyone on your friends list gets asked to put your name forward like that. Heck - you could even (gently) ask people whom you've worked with on Wikipedia to help (use their Talk: pages though!) Get a stack of CV's and give them to absolutely everyone who knows you...even people you don't like much or who you don't think could help - you have nothing to lose. Have a copy of your CV (nicely presented) online somewhere - so you can send the URL via email or whatever. Make a point of making contacts everywhere you can. Start talking to your next door neighbours - make sure they all know. If you've worked in other places in the past - make sure your ex-coworkers know that you're on the job market. Widen that network - ask your contacts whether THEY have contacts who could help. Remember the "six degrees of separation" rule - in this world, there is a friendship chain of at most ~6 people between you and everyone else on the planet. If you need to get a personal introduction with some manager at some very specific workplace - there IS a chain that you can follow to get directly to them. Find it - use it.

You can deliberately make new links. Suppose you want a job in a particular supermarket - make sure to talk to the checkout people when you shop there - make a point of picking the same checkout person every time you go - get chatty with them - then, when they know you well enough to recognise you...say "Hey do you know if there are jobs open here?"...and "Would you mind giving my CV to your boss - it probably won't get read otherwise."...do this everywhere - sooner or later, you'll find someone who will!

When you get an interview - remember how hard it was to get? Make it count. Before you go - research the company - read everything on their website - be ready with smart, intelligent questions...and make SURE you've got good answers for all of the god-awful questions that interviewers sometimes ask.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

TBH, unless you're trying to build a career, I doubt a CV will be a lot of use. If you don't mind doing shitty jobs for shitty pay, there's lots of work out there. Just before Christmas, many retail places are hiring part-timers - just walk in and ask for an application form. Mention any special skills or experience you might have. For example: till/checkout skills, experience with kids, prepared to work nights, etc. Astronaut (talk) 21:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I really can't see a 17 year old getting any job that requires a Human Resources department to be involved in the process. Just walk in off the street, ask to see the manager, ask if they have any jobs going and keep trying until someone says yes. --Tango (talk) 22:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the first jobs are always hard to get, for everyone. Once you get a foot in the door though they become a lot easier. Have patience. You will have an entire lifetime to do boring work for money... --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Lots of manual labor jobs also require little or no qualifications. You could look to get on a road crew or a construction crew or work as a domestic of some sort. If you are half-way competant, and willing to stick with it, you could find yourself as a supervisor or foreman before too long. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There are restrictions on what kind of jobs minors can have in the UK that might get in the way of that kind of work. Although, I expect the minimum age for working on a construction site is 16, so a 17 year-old would be ok. However, those kind of jobs are usually full-time, the OP specified he was looking for part time work. --Tango (talk) 01:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

November 16

Fraudulent credit on my account

I have a credit on my recent two bank statements that is clearly fraudulent. It reads something like this ***** BILL PAYMENT 10/19 RESERVATION REWARD 800-7327031 CTUS RESERVAT . I know this is nonsense, because I am internet savvy (not stupid enough to sign up for something I don't want), and I work at a bank, so I am decently savvy with finances. As such, I know I did not actually sign up for this offer - they can not pull out the "he just didn't read the fine print" argument like they do with everyone else (I can think of only one possible exception: when I signed up for a one time deal citywide wifi, it may have been stuck in the fine print. I plan on checking thoroughly). I know how to get my money bank (i.e., Regulation E): what I want to know is if there is a way to report this kind of thing to the SEC or whoever, because my google search [2] clearly shows this has been occurring for a while without law enforcement intervention. My credit card appears to have its number taken and sold to these guys. Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You mean a debit, right? Money taken out of your account? Contact your bank, they will have procedures you need to go through to report it. --Tango (talk) 00:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Correct. But I need to check old bank statements - if I have any more than 60 days old, I won't be able to get it back unless I call the company directly (google reveals they do so if pressed). Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You know, I have faint memories of this happening to me a couple of years ago. It turned out that it was a checkbox I had ticked when i bought some computer equipment online. They (unethically in my view) kept me on for a monthly charge to give me "access to future discounts" or some other garbage like that...

The SEC just regulates publicly traded securities. You would want a consumer group like perhaps [[3]] this one. Your other alternative would be to start up a small claims court case, and send them a letter letting them know (if you can find an address and/or legal company name). If it's a small amount, they'll likely offer a refund rather than flying in, or retaining a lawyer. NByz (talk) 00:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Many banks also have fraud-protection policies, and will not hold you accountable for fraudulent charges against your account. You should probably first contact you bank, and find out what can be done about the charge. I would recommend asking to discuss the matter in person at the bank, as the people who answer the phone lines are often harder to deal with, and its much easier to get things done in person. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Check your bank's fee information very carefully, though. I once had an erroneous debit charge on my account. It was for a small amount, but I instructed to bank to trace where it came from and remove it. And so they did. However, they charged me twice as much as the original debit had been in fees. When I complained they referred to a section in their fees policy for my account. According to that they had every right to charge that fee. (They did lose a customer because of it, though.)76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Why, historically, has America not crushed dissent and allowed great freedom?

I won't expand too much here, don't want question removed. What is the history and/or reason for Americas freedom vs almost every other country, regardless of risks? I'm Outta Here! (talk) 02:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

A few reasons:

1. Magna Carta. British based societies value individual freedoms far more than others. Even former African colonies follow this to some extent. Example: lots of governmental subdivisions allows more local freedom. Compare this with say, Cuba.
2. Most Americans are children of people fleeing old world. Puritans are only one example of many. Most of these people left Old World for American Dream and personal freedoms. Diversity requires toleration. Look at old world, from Catalonia, to China, to Persia. They all fight over small things. Americans had melting pot.
3. American history. US left Britain for sake of these freedoms. It's indoctrinated into us from young school age as result. I tend to think this is far less important than other reasons. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your defintion of "freedom" is, but the US is certainly not the only nation that enshrines notions of "freedom" in its constitution and laws - almost every nation founded since the Enlightenment is founded on such principles. There are plenty of countries in the world where "crushing dissent" is not the norm. You might also want to consider comparative incarceration rates before deciding the US is a uniquely "free" nation. FiggyBee (talk) 03:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

While the Enlightenment may have been the first modern expression of the ideal of individual freedom, it has been argued that it was also the beginning of the end of the substance, because it advocated a rational top-down legal system against the disorderly polycentric order that had developed since the late Middle Ages. It's easier for a single center to become corrupt and tyrannical than for a centreless system. —Tamfang (talk) 01:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Before we get too misty-eyed, it should be noted that America's history of free speech is not exactly unblemished. See the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Comstock laws, the Sedition Act of 1918, Red Scare, McCarthyism, COINTELPRO, etc. as examples where the ideal of free speech ran up against fears of political and cultural instability. When things get bad, "the gloves come off", as the outgoing administration liked to say, and then all sorts of things incompatible with what people usually consider core American values start happening behind closed doors. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

And let's not forget McCarthyism, a force that's still strong enough that a recent Presidential candidate thought merely invoking the "s" word could win him an election... (EC: you didn't, I see :P) FiggyBee (talk) 03:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If you "crush dissent" then there is little "freedom" except to obey those in power. People who came to America often fled oppression, but oppressed others as soon as they were able, whether it was the Pilgrims, William Penn and the Quakers, or Roger Williams and the Baptists. The colonists in America also enslaved Africans and sought to exterminate Native Americans. Edison (talk) 05:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Edison, I suspect you read the post like I first did, as "Why has America not (both) crushed dissent and allowed great freedom", whereas I think the poster actually meant "Why has America (both) not crushed dissent and (also) allowed great freedom?" DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

See also American exceptionalism. The USA is by no means the only country to allow great freedom, despite your claim that "almost every other country" does not. You will find that while the USA is generally considered free, the more detailed indices show that it is not considered to be in the 14-strong group of "most free" nations, partly because its press freedom is only "satisfactory". On the Freedom of the Press rankings, the USA is ranked 36th. Gwinva (talk) 00:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Free speech of course is almost never absolute in any area. It is often dictated by political purposes. The Fairness Doctrine is one particularly sore spot among conservatives (and rightly so) as it appears to be aimed at right wing talk radio. Other times it is abridged for moral purposes: laws against child pornography, etc. But you already knew all this.

That said, no matter what any other country (or person within the US) claims, I firmly believe the US is at the top of countries with freedoms, even with things like the Patriot Act (you might note that as unpopular as it is, even many "free" countries like Sweden have stricter laws). Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Would you care to explain your reasons for that belief? In particular, would you care to explain your definition of "free"? Which country is the most free is going to depend very heavily on how you define freedom. --Tango (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Magog the Ogre, you mentioned the Puritans but I thought they left England because they found that society too tolerant? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Depends on how you define "tolerant". English society circa 1620 was more "tolerant" of certain social practices than perhaps the Puritans would have for themselves, but that wasn't what really drove them from England. It was that English society, and government policies, was also rather "intolerant" of the Puritans as a group, and actively drove them from the country. After the Hampton Court Conference and Richard Bancroft ascension to the Archbishopric of Canterbury, things got rather hot for the Puritans. Many of the famous Scrooby congregation, who would go on to found Plymouth colony, were imprisoned in Boston, Lincolnshire for a time, as one example. So again, like with the word "freedom", you have to be careful how you define "tolerant". Puritans were more strict than the rest of the CofE at the time, but they were also regularly and officially harrassed for their beliefs... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would highly recommend the excellent Story of American Freedom (amazon link) by Eric Foner, which is a history of the concept of freedom throughout American history. An interesting account of how notions of freedom have changed over time and how these concepts have driven US political history. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

How many #1 hits did Johnny Cash, Elvis, and Moe Bandy have?

You might want to try the Entertainment Ref Desk for this question. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

So moved. BrainyBabe (talk) 10:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

How many things have been described as great fakes?

I am thinking here of two amusing literary examples: was it Oscar Wilde who referred to Debrett's Peerage as the greatest work of fiction in the English language? And a century later, Douglas Adams said much the same thing about the Greek ferry timetable. I'd like to collect more examples. Any ideas? BrainyBabe (talk) 11:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Milli Vanilli won awards for their music when they were actually lip synching. That type of thing? Dismas|^(talk) 14:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of them, but the article is revealing! BrainyBabe (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm still trying to find the Wilde. But this is from Dirk Gently, chapter 4:

"Well, what you have to understand, young lady, is that the Greeks, not content with dominating the culture of the Classical world, are also responsible for the greatest, some would say the only, work of true creative imagination produced this century as well. I refer of course to the Greek ferry timetables. A work of the sublimest fiction. Anyone who has travelled in the Aegean will confirm this. Hmm, yes. I think so." BrainyBabe (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh! I love Douglas Adam's writing - and ordinarily, I'd trust what he wrote with my life. But I travelled around the Greek islands using their "flying dolphin" hydrofoil services off and on through the 1980's and 90's - and I found them to be spectacularly reliable and invariably on-schedule. I strongly recommend that way of travel - and the Greek islands are the most amazing places to explore. SteveBaker (talk) 02:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The Turk? I'll add something else when it comes to mind. --Taraborn (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Holy Roman Empire, which [Voltaire said to be "neither holy, nor Roman, nor Empire?" Edison (talk)

I would look through Category:Forgery, Category:Hoaxes and Category:Fraud for some ideas, and to kill this thread with (a misuse of) Godwin's law I will suggest the Hitler Diaries. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In 2003, Shaun Greenhalgh and dad revealed but not before scamming art and musseum experts around the country. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Piltdown Man ? 86.53.80.11 (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

And its see also section: Archeoraptor. If you mean literary hoaxes, Australia's a breeding ground for them, from Ern Malley to The Hand That Signed the Paper. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Learning to play the Mandolin

I have never learned to read music - I have never played ANY kind of a musical instrument in my life (I am 61) - I am now retired, happy, and active - and for some inexplicable reason, I have the urge to play a musical instrument - not ANY musical instrument mind, but a mandolin. I don't own one - I don't know anyone who owns one - and I don't even know any local schools or teachers - not even a shop that stores them. So - 2 questions - first, how difficult (comparatively speaking) is it to learn to play reasonably well from scratch - and secondly, is there a name for such a mid-life compulsion/crisis. I know some folk go sailing around the world single-handed so I know I am not alone - but why?? 92.20.215.140 (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I taught myself to play the mandolin at age 50, mostly for playing chords. But then I already played the guitar. It took me 2 months. I'd say that the level of difficulty is about the same as the guitar. The mandolin has frets, so it's definitely a lot easier than playing the violin. It's more difficult to tune a mandolin than a guitar though, so I'd recommend investing in a suitable electronic tuner. I would expect any decent shop that sells guitars to also have mandolins. Can't answer your second question. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The website Mandolincafe may be of interest to you. Note that it includes an archive of (presumably legal) mp3 downloads, some of which are very good. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't see any reason why you can't learn. It can be harder for older people to learn new things, but many have tried and succeeded. Finding a teacher is difficult. The tuning is, if I recall correctly, the same as a violin. A violinist might be able to teach you something (finding notes, reading music), as would a guitarist (technique, music), but they will both have a little bit af trouble adapting. Between the two of them you could get the basics.

As to the last question, if you haven't read midlife crisis yet, it's a good idea (the article, not the crisis). In Australia, the phenomenon known as [grey nomad]]s is getting well known. Empty nest syndrome might also be a factor. Steewi (talk) 00:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

How difficult? It will take the rest of your life, so you need to start learning now. Is there a basis? Opportunity, desire... In Groundhog Day the character Phil Connors' life is repeating itself, forcing him to reevaluate. Among his solutions is to learn jazz piano and impress his friends, and yes, he gets the girl. ^<tinkle> Julia Rossi (talk) 03:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

As a pianist/guitarist/mandolinist/violinist, I'd say the mandolin is the easiest for the four to pick up. For chords, many common chords are two- or three-fingered, and bar chords are easier than on a guitar. For melodies, the consistent fifth interval between strings makes it easier for my brain to wrap itself around a pattern (as compared to the guitar's 4th-4th-4th-3rd-4th, which gets me every time). The only exception is that since there are only 4 strings, there is less flexibility in voicing chords, so more complex chords can be real excercises in dexterity. jeffjon (talk) 14:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Re the guitar/mandolin comparison: A trick that might be of interest to guitarists following this thread, is the following: If you take the four deepest strings of a guitar chord (provided the chord includes these strings, obviously), and mirror-image them, you get a mandolin chord. Example:

        Guitar               Mandolin
        G major              G major

Tuning: E A d g b e'         g d'a'e" 
Chord:  G B g d h g'         g d b'g"

        3 2 0 0 0 3          0 0 2 3
        ===========          =======
        | | | | | |          | | | |
        | o | | | |          | | o |
        o | | | | o          | | | o
        | | | | | |          | | | |

--NorwegianBlue ^talk 16:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The other issue with a Mandolin is that, unlike other similar instruments like a Guitar or Violin, it has absolutely NO sustain really to speak of. At a standard tempo, even an accoustic guitar has enough sustain to play individual notes. A mandolin is fairly limited in this regard, it is almost ALWAYS used as a rhythm instrument, and does require some rather fast right-hand strumming, usually 8th or 16th notes, to maintain a good sound. There are some mandolin players who are able to play a "tune" or "melody" on the mandolin, most famously Bill Monroe, but this basically requires lighting fast fret-work on the left hand. You still play it "full strum" with the right hand, and the melody is generally obtained by rapid chord-suspensions and the like. It is a fairly easy instrument to play competantly, but it can be quite hard to reach "the next level" as it were... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

In the mp3 section of Mandolin Café, you'll find many fine examples in various genres of the mandolin being used as the lead instrument, including Ludvig van Beethoven's sonatina for the mandolin. Not all of these require a virtuoso player. The lack of sustain is usually compensated for by using tremolo. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

True, but tremelo play is quite a difficult skill, given the extremely close spacing of the mandolin strings, and the relative speed and precision required to hit ONLY the strings you want, repeatedly, and at the correct rhythm and tempo. Its certainly more difficult than playing the same tune on a guitar, where you can hit each note once, and let it ring until the next note is needed... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, Louis McManus... Julia Rossi (talk) 08:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Volume of iPod vs Speaker volume

Suppose if I was to plug in an iPod Touch into a pair of computer speakers that have a rotating-knob volume control and suppose the volume units on the two units are interchangable. Is there any different, in terms of sound quality, if I turn my iPod volume to say, 40 volume units and my speaker to 60 volume units compared to if I turn my iPod to 60 volume units and speaker to 40 volume units? Acceptable (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

When I listen to my iPod in my car, I find I get much better quality if I turn up the car stereo's volume than the iPod volume. If I turn the iPod all the way up, I get clicky noises and distortions. Cars (and computers) are intended to make louder noise than iPods and can handle it better. Also, turning the iPod to top volume tends to deplete the battery faster. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 21:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

IPod source -> IPod Amplifier -> Speaker Amplifier -> Speakers. If there is interference, you'll want the IPod output as large as possible and turn the speaker amps down so that any pickup before the speaker amp is amplified the least. If on the other hand the IPod manages to overload the input stage of the speaker amp then you'lll get distortion and want to turn the Ipod down and the speaker up. -- SGBailey (talk) 21:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Simplest answer...Do a test. Listen to both setups, stick with the one you find sounds the best. Try it with some heavy music to maximise chance of distorsion/noise-issues, and try it with some stuff that has very delicate pieces to see if there's a difference there. Your ears are much better at decided what setup works best (for you) than the technical guide or specialist knowledge. There is no right answer unfortunately. Personally I don't enjoy my music to be boom-y or sound too bass-y (base-y?) but some people I know love it that way, so whilst some speakers are technically better, ultimately the most important thing is your preference. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Personally in my car I use Ipod on full volume, stereo on about the same level I have for my normal FM radio - gets a lovely sound no distortion at all... If I switch that and turn Ipod down and stereo up not only do I find I get too much bass sound that drowns out the other elements of the track, but I also get more interference from other parts of the car - ie if I've got anything charging through the cigarette lighter like a sat nav etc... But having the Ipod on full drain it within about 3-4 hours so I have to always carry an in-car charger with me for long journeys... As with the above post, it's gotta come down to personal preference at the end of the day... Gazhiley (talk) 14:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Listening to MP3's with high-end audio system

Would I notice a significant increase in audio quality if I am listening to 128-192 kbs MP3's on a Bose Wave Sounds System or some other high-end audio system compared to if I was listening to it on some decent $100 speakers? If not, what file types would I have to listen to in order to notice the increase in audio quality? Acceptable (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an audiophile, so I can't give you many specific details, but in my experience the answer is yes. It will sound significantly better on better hardware. However, if you compare it to the original, high-quality versions, the decrease in quality will become more obvious (in my experience, mp3s sounds better on good hardware than cds on crappy hardware, but cds on good hardware sounds better than mp3s on good hardware). If you want to have as good a quality as you can get, use either high-bitrate versions of mp3s (256 kbs and up), or lossless formats like Apple Lossless or FLAC (these will sound exactly like a cd, they contain identical data) 83.250.202.208 (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Guantanamo Bay vs Cuba

Hypothetically, suppose if Cuba wanted to re-claim the land that US Guantanamo Bay Naval Base is occupying, would they be able to do it? Assuming that Guantanamo Bay does not receive any external aid and must solely rely on their current resources and that Cuba can divert their entire military forces to attack the base. Acceptable (talk) 17:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, you will never see this in print (except perhaps here) but Cuba relies on the RENT that the USA pays to Fidel and his cohorts. How else can Cuba afford to train all those doctors? And as to ATTACKING Guantanamo from either inside or outside the island??????? NEVER. The international community would NEVER stand for it. It ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. Fidel and his principles are more loved than John Lennon. But when he goes?? I guess a bit of internal strife - followed by a Cuban Disney World and all that goes with it - including a reality Fidel show. What a bloody shame awaits those lovely people in Cuba.92.20.215.140 (talk) 18:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Um, the reason you "will never see this in print" is because Cuba does not accept rent from the US, because it claims the lease in invalid. See our article on the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. They used to sell the US water but decided to stop doing that. I don't think Cuba gets any profit from having Guatanamo there, and I don't think it has anything at all to do with its medical system. If you're going to spout off about what you "never see in print" you might as well do the five seconds of research it takes to determine whether it is actually true or not, or whether it is just uninformed nonsense. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, it would never happen, but it's an interesting hypothetical question. According to Cuba#Military, they have about 60,000 personnel. Guantanamo Bay has a population of about 8,500 according to [4], and those aren't all military (it includes dependants and contractors), so the Cubans have them massively outnumbered. Cuba's military is rather out of date now, though, I think - it hasn't really had an upgrade since the end of the Cold War. If the Cubans could get the help of the prisoners, then they might be able to pull it off - an attack from the outside timed to coincide with a massive prison revolt could work. Of course, if they actually tried it, the base would get very swift outside help from the rest of the US military and would surely win. --Tango (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why the Cubans couldn't take one measley base, assuming no reinforcements (as you stipulated). It's worth not underestimating the Cuban military—even aside from Bay of Pigs and all that, they've shown themselves to be much more sophisticated than the "omg Castro stooge" stereotype that the US has promulgated since their dictator lost out to another dictator in the Revolution. They have some outdated equipment but it doesn't take the most sophisticated equipment in a world to take over a base (it's another thing if you're talking about talking about jet-on-jet or jet-on-tank interactions, in which high tech can make a big difference).--98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the entire military forces of Cuba could take over Guantanamo, if for some bizarre reason, no support from outside US forces could be provided. The prisoners at GITMO wouldn't be much help, though, being only a few hundred. Note that the US has other military forces in a similar situation, such as those on the border with North Korea. However, the presence of "sacrificial troops" there ensures an immediate US response to any invasion. StuRat (talk) 20:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Could a larger force take a smaller force from a more powerful nation, which was unable to reinforce or resupply in a timely fashion? See Battle of the Little Bighorn . See Battle of Isandlwana. See Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Edison (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

See Falklands war ... Gandalf61 (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a good example. Argentina easily took them over, but only until the British fleet arrived and took them back. That was quite a wasted effort on the part of Argentina, whose leadership was quickly dumped as a result.. StuRat (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Tactically it would probably be a cinch. Strategicly it would be beyond stupid. You don't beat up the little brother from the family with 12 kids if you're an only child. Sure, the Cuban military could probably massacre the American forces there. But an unprovoked attack on American forces would also likely not exactly go unnoticed. Its why the American people have always supported the Afghan War more than the Iraq War. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe some Cuban general who wants democracy in Cuba might order an invasion of GITMO, knowing it will immediately result in a US invasion, overthrow of the government, and US rebuilding. Since Cuba would likely lack the insurgency and ethnic/religious civil war of Iraq and Afghanistan, casualties would be light. StuRat (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

An international relations joe job??? I love it... ROFLMAO. That;s great... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(Faked-identity conspiracy theories are way older than spam.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Telephone training

If you feel rather insecure talking on the phone, how could you train to be better at it? What are possible general information phones -excluding 911- I could call to get some practice? Mr.K. (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You could talk to people on skype. I found a number of google hits for message boards of people looking for other people to practice English, for example, which might be a low-stress situation for a native English speaker. Darkspots (talk) 18:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You could use the 'phone a friend' option. If you're willing to admit it to them, you can arrange with a friend to call them and just talk for a while as practice. Once you can talk casually, you could practice a more formal phone technique with them, as if you are talking in a business situation, giving information. Set up some role playing, where your friend is the secretary for a business and you need some information about the business (opening hours, making an appointment, availability of a product, etc.). Once you can do that comfortably, switch roles. A good friend could help you do it, even if you're just in the next room.

If you're worried about costs, you could use a set of two phones in the one house with an intercom system, so you can talk to someone in the next room, without being charged by the phone company. If you're having trouble that interferes heavily with the way you lead your life, you should ask your doctor about a therapist who can help you understand why you have the trouble and help you get over it improve your lifestyle. Steewi (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit in above line for non-offensive sounding sentence. Steewi (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Googling for "Telephone training" produced about 8.8 million hits(!) - but most seem to be for telephone call center operatives. You can go on one of those courses for a few hundred bucks - there seem to be many DVD's with self-help stuff. However, for 'telephone anxiety' (let's say), those things are unlikely to help you much. Googling "Telephone anxiety" got me 5.5 million hits(!) - the first few of which seemed very relevent. Our article on Social phobia discusses it briefly. SteveBaker (talk) 02:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I used to hate talking to strangers on the phone in a fairly irrational way. I got a job working on a political campaign and made hours and hours of cold calls. Got to talk to a lot of crazy characters, and now I have no phone issues. You could try volunteering/working for a political campaign next election season. Some politicians (e.g. Obama, to great effect) even post lists of phone numbers on websites and you can just call from your house. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

November 17

Disliking someone (not a request for medical advice)

Is it possible to become physically ill if you're around someone you dislike? Or even if you think about them? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 01:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Some sort of Evil eye?--Lenticel ^(talk) 01:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, someone who's put you through the wringer in the past, and now they're back. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 01:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure - that situation could put you under undue stress - and being stressed on a long-term basis can certainly make you sick. There are also all sorts of psychosomatic effects that could happen because of bad mental associations. Yes - definitely. SteveBaker (talk) 01:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Certainly happened to me.--212.139.78.231 (talk) 07:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. If you're around someone who've you really dislike (or have caused you pain in the past), your fight-or-flight response can kick in, raising your blood-pressure and heartbeat and doing all sorts of nasty things (see here for a list). These things can in turn cause other nasty effects.

It can be even worse if you suffer some sort of underlying syndrome, like PTSD or some sort of social phobia. Then the stress response can get totally out of hand and many ugly things can happen 83.250.202.208 (talk) 09:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Boy, I hope not. If it's not possible, then I'll just find someone I dislike to hang out with, and I'll never get sick again! --Trovatore (talk) 07:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

ROTFL - A true mathematician! Dmcq (talk) 09:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather be sick occasionally. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:36, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Various industry news

I'm having a bit of a hard time finding sources of industry news for ATVs, snowmobiles, and dirt bikes (off highway motorcycles). Is my best bet just going to every manufacturer and going through their press releases and news sections on their web sites? My intent is to collect these items in one place on the net, whether by reprinting if allowed or through links to the articles. Sort of a one stop shop type thing. Dismas|^(talk) 07:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Size of Wikipedia by main categories

Hi, I asked this question a long time ago. Is there data on how Wikipedia's size is distributed among the Main categories? I would love to know how the amount of articles compare between categories, and things like that. So has this info been compiled yet somewhere? Or, is there someplace I could talk at to propose such a thing to be done?? Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 15:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be interesting, I wonder how one could find it out, the category system in wikpedia isn't hierarchical. I'd like to see how much overlap there is and the main kinds of things that don't fit in properly. Dmcq (talk) 18:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's the cynic's answer. --Sean 13:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

There's way more Colbert than that. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Actually, that's pretty much what I'm asking for, but hopefully the real thing won't look too similar to this... :P Kreachure (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Disinformation inserted by the CIA(!) lol... You can see the most visited pages here. This is exactly what you want - but only for featured articles. Here's an example from about a year ago... but for the French wikipedia. (And, while you're at it, a similar joke to the one above but also in French.) There's a little relevant stuff in this study (pdf), but it's from 2005. zafiroblue05 | Talk 08:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Haha, I love the most visited pages. Masturbation is more often visited than Shakespeare, Germany or Russia.--Lgriot (talk) 05:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Latin small letter reversed s?

Resolved

You can move this to language or computers, I wasn't sure which to put it under.

What is the code for the symbol that looks like a reversed lowercase s? I've found one for e and c but not for s. 199.67.16.60 (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean this: "ς"? In Unicode, it's ς. Tomdobb (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly, it would be a mirror image of s, like ɘ is the mirror of e, and ↄ is the mirror of c. 74.230.234.231 (talk) 19:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason you can't find it is that s is symmetrical! It looks the same backwards.... 94.27.195.51 (talk) 22:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it "ƨ", U+01A8? MTM (talk) 21:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

uh, ƨcratch that... 94.27.195.51 (talk) 22:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Latin Small Letter Tone Two See Zhuang language#Writing systems: This was the Latin-alphabet symbol used from 1957 to 1986 for tone 2 (low falling) in the Zhuang language. Unicode point 01A8 / 01A7 for lower/upper case. jnestorius^(talk) 23:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I would never have thought to look for a tone symbol, of all things. 199.67.16.60 (talk) 16:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The biggest point deficit overcome in NBA game?

What was the biggest point deficit overcome in NBA game? What teams played and when was it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.196.78 (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Typing Biggest comeback in NBA history into google returns the first result as one of our articles: NBA records. There, it notes that the largest comeback in a game was, and I quote, "The Milwaukee Bucks made the largest comeback in NBA history on November 25, 1977 vs. the Atlanta Hawks. The Bucks overcame a 29 point deficit with 8:43 remaining, finishing the game with a 35-4 run and a 117-115 win." However, the same article also notes that "The Utah Jazz made history on November 27, 1996 by overcoming a 34-point halftime deficit to beat the Denver Nuggets, 107-103" which would seem to qualify as also the largest comeback ever. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

2005 Toyota Corolla CRS

Okay. I'm looking to buy a car, and I really want to get a 2005 Toyota Corolla XRS. I live in Western NC, and I'm willing to travel a little ways to get it (Maybe 300 miles). However, I can't find one. No matter what. And it's killing me. I want a 6-speed manual transmission, and preferably with power windows/locks. Other than that, I could care less. Help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EWHS (talk • x) 21:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried Ebay Motors ? StuRat (talk) 21:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Craigslist? --Blue387 (talk) 21:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Carmax will, for a fee, ship just about any car between any two stores... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I've shipped cars from one coast of the US to the other - it's typically about $600 and happens within days. You might also prefer to find one from somewhere like Texas, NewMexico, Nevada - where there is no rust! (Although - an '05 ought to be OK). Paying for a car without seeing it is a problem - there are escrow services that handle that kind of thing cleanly and safely - but you'll want to get LOTS of up-close photos from the seller - especially of places like the driver's doors where door dings can be - also of the seats and other places where minor damage might lurk. If you can find a garage close to the seller and have them do an independant examination of the car...make sure YOU pay for that! SteveBaker (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Inquiring (but not acquiring) minds want to know: why 2005? —Tamfang (talk) 01:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Is lotion necessary when using a tanning bed?

Is it necessary to use sun lotion when using a tanning bed? I don't mean the special "bronzers" that are referred to in the article, as they appear to be an optional extra with a special purpose of their own, but ordinary lotion to protect against burning, as is used on a beach. Or do people just go in without anything on their skin? Postlebury (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Follow the instructions you are given by the people running the salon. I would think putting sun cream on would defeat the object - it stops you tanning, not just burning. --Tango (talk) 00:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

People running salons generally have no idea what they're talking about, so I wouldn't take their word for much of anything. (I've seen dateline-style investigative reports of many salon owners recommending totally unsafe exposure levels, and all the ones I've interacted with aren't particularly up on skin safety.) If you care about your skin enough to use sunblock, you shouldn't be going in a tanning bed! I've never heard of anyone using sunblock when going in a tanning booth, and when I've been in a tanning booth I've never used any. (Wouldn't you rather just lay in the bed for a shorter time?) Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

November 18

internet joke origin

In various places I've seen a joke/troll where someone posts to a helpboard with "I accidentally the whole thing!" (sic) Does anyone know if this is a reference to a particular origin (like a TV sketch)? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So far it is a thinly posted wannabe internet meme [5] but I'm sure this posting will help spread it. It would need to be far funnier to qualify as a joke. Edison (talk) 01:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not even original but just a re-take of the old Alka-Seltzer ad, "I can't believe I ate the whole thing!"? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 04:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Dramatica has a surprisingly useful explanation. Of course it is forbidden to link to it, but search for "I accidentally X". Adam Bishop (talk) 08:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And suddenly I understand the perspective of authoritarian dictators who suppress freedom of speech :(. The reason we don't allow direct links to encyclopedia drammatica articles is because it would ruin our little project, wikipedia. Kind of like the reason China doesn't allow you to talk about what happened at Tiananman square. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.75.250 (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's more to do with the amount of trolling that occurred with ED links. Certainly a lot of the articles are very useful and informative for this kind of thing, though - they're just not very encyclopedic in the classic sense of the word! ~ mazca ^t|c 18:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I know, understand, and agree with that reasoning. It's also exactly the same logic (ie based on the undesired result for the project) that China uses to crack down on people who talk about Tiananman square. I'm NOT talking about links on article pages: I'm talking about here at the reference desk or any other discussion (TALK) pages. It's EXACTLY the same as not allowing web sites to link to pictures of Tianman square. I mean, exactly the same. I don't disagree with it here at Wikipedia, I just have suddenly understood the reasoning that authoritarian dictators use, or authoritarian regimes like China, and it makes me feel very dirty. 79.122.75.250 (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I would never have thought to look something up in Encyclopaedia Dramatica. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does indeed come from 4chan. ;)Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The dramatica article notes that most people are familiar with the "whole coke bottle." Indeed. You can see the (actually really funny) link here (a jpg). (See also here for the punchline.) zafiroblue05 | Talk 07:35, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

United States National Debt

United States is in debt about $10,617,806,584,635.27. I know that printing out more money from the federal reserve and handing it out in our country would decrease the power of the dollar. But why don't we just print out more money and give it to countries who we are in debt to? (Japan ($580 billion), China ($390 billon) and the United Kingdom ($320 bilion) Would the same problem of decreasing bang for the buck occur. Or would it be a different problem because it is overseas? This would at least reduce our debt by 1 trillion 290 billion. What are the problems with doing this and is this even legal/ethical? Thanks for any serious answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Printing and internationally distributing a currency would have the same inflationary effect. More of a currency in circulation makes it relatively less valuable regardless of who holds it first. Inflation is like a tax on everyone else who holds money.NByz (talk) 06:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This is an important principle of international markets, if you increase or decrease the price of a commodity anywhere, it affects the price everywhere else. In this case, the commodity is dollars. For another example, look at oil. The argument has been made that the US should drill more wells to lower US energy prices. However, since that oil goes on the international market, it would lower oil prices in China just as much as the US. StuRat (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And it wouldn't lower prices by much at all if you check out Arctic Refuge drilling controversy Nil Einne (talk) 01:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Think of it in terms of demand and supply. If the supply of something (in this case US dollars) increases with the demand being unchanged, the value of the thing decreases. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 06:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Note as well that a large campaign to print money to get out of debt would likely depress the value of the U.S. dollar much further than simple dilution would predict. Currently, the U.S. dollar is widely seen, accepted, and employed as a reserve currency — a reliable store of value backed by a large, stable economy and a sound financial system.

Attempting to print its way out of debt would lead to a worldwide loss of confidence in the soundness of the U.S.' dollar, a flight to better-managed currencies like the euro, and a plummeting value of the U.S. dollar on international markets. Countries that have been actively propping up the value of the U.S. dollar (especially China and other Asian markets, who wish to see their export goods remain affordable to U.S. purchasers) would likely cease those activities, not wishing to see their investment squandered. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Which would reduce the extent to which people with to lend the US money, which would increase the cost of borrowing for the US, which would end up with them having more debt and printing more money and they would rapidly spiral into hyperinflation. --Tango (talk) 15:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

primates

it's common in statistics in both human and primates ,,,the clue is that it has to do with their limbs ..what's the answer..if anyone knows the answer please help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.24.99.211 (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thumbs? 81.187.153.189 (talk) 07:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Digits? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 09:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Left handedness? --Sean 13:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Percentage of population that have solved the P vs. NP problem? 83.250.202.208 (talk) 21:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

They walk upright...sometimes? Adam Bishop (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest opposable thumbs or something to do with the dna/gene commonalities. --KizzyB (talk) 16:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Arm to leg length ratio comparisons? There is probably an official name for it. They're good for determining the habits of primates, i.e. arborial versus terrestrial... 152.16.15.23 (talk) 02:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm going with opposable thumbs. Tezkag72 (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Short fingers?

I want to learn a musical instrument just for the fun of it but my friend says my fingers are probably too small to play the piano or guitar. My index finger is about 6.5cm long (2.5"), my middle finger is 7cm (2.8") and my thumb is about 5.5cm (2.25"). I know having long fingers helps a lot with playing instruments but are short fingers really an impediment? --Candy-Panda (talk) 07:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe keyboard things require a wideish span between pinkie finger tip and thumb tip. Plenty of instruments may not (woodwind, percussion, brass). There's always the theremin among other things. I remember something about a musician who tried stretching their hands mechanically and ended up wrecking them, but can't think of the name. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it was Lizst :) 194.80.32.9 (talk) 16:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

My fingers are only about 1 - 2 mm longer than yours but I play the guitar without too much difficulty in that respect. The most I can stretch my fingers is from the 5th fret with my index to the 10th fret with my pinky but I haven't been hindered by my short fingers yet. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have stubby fingers but I can play guitar well enough. You might not be able to play songs by people with long fingers, but you don't need long fingers to form all the basic chords. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The harmonica requires no great length of fingers. --Psud (talk) 09:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Alicia de Larrocha has tiny hands. Maybe she struggled with some of Rachmaninov's compositions (whose handspan was legendary), but it certainly didn't stop her from becoming an exquisite pianist. Michel Petrucciani, one of the greatest European jazz pianists ever, had to overcome all sorts of difficulties (though he never perceived them as such, and though, to be fair, his hands look normal-sized on pictures). Django Reinhardt came up with new fingerings, and continued to swing hard on his guitar, even after two of his left hand's fingers were paralyzed in a fire accident. There are plenty of examples. I recommend learning the instrument that appeals most to you, not the one that best fits your physical measurements. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Scriabin, who wrote the greatest piano music in history, had very small hands with a span of barely a ninth. That meant that he was unable to perform some of his own music, but from the accounts of people who heard him play and the piano roll recordings that exist, it's safe to say what he could play he played brilliantly. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Scriabin, who wrote the greatest piano music in history - hmmm, I think that's slightly debatable. Let's just say he wrote some great music. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll take some of the blame, for my weasely "one of the greatest ... ever". Soon after typing, I reconsidered this and thought yeah he's one of the greatest ever out of a pretty large set of greatest ever. I guess I was under the influence of listening to some clips on youtube while thinking about this question and Petrucciani's remarkable and far too short biography. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd second the guitar. I have very short, stubby fingers, and there are a few weird chords I have to work around (like, say, E2) but mostly you can work out most of the basic chords. The tuning of a guitar means that you can play 2 full octaves in a 5-fret space, even for my short fat fingers. You could also look into smaller stringed instruments, like Ukulele or Mandolin. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Playing keyboard instruments used to require long reach - but many modern electronic keyboards have keys that are considerably smaller than piano keys. It's just a matter of finding the right instrument. Also - how about a trombone - those things should be easy on the fingers! SteveBaker (talk) 13:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I 2nd the idea of getting an electronic keyboard. You can turn the disadvantage into an advantage by getting a smaller, less expensive keyboard. In particular, I'd expect models made in Asia (Yamaha, for example) would be designed for those with shorter fingers. If they are still too big, try a version designed for children. They may be the cheapest yet. StuRat (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore - with the ubiquity of the MIDI interface, you can take a relatively cheap keyboard who'se "feel" and spacing happen to suit you - and hook it up to an industrial-strength synthesiser bank full of hideously expensive professional gear. SteveBaker (talk) 19:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well... I think your just fine! My mom can play both and her finger hights are the same! -Warriorscourge (talk) 19:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Smaller hands are an advantage on some wind instruments, such as flute. --S.dedalus (talk) 22:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Long fingers can certainly be helpful for some instruments (I can stretch from the 5th to the 14th fret on a guitar, so things like bass come easy for me), but short fingers do not necessarily impair people. I know guitarists of all fingers lengths, and many have short, stubby fingers and can play circles around the big-handed ones. It's just a matter of practice and perseverance, and if you really work at it, there's no reason for smaller fingers to stop you from becoming a good (if not great) guitarist. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 03:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The Suzuki method somtimes uses instruments designed for very young people with hands much smaller than yours. Phil Burnstein (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of watching some movie in which Jeff Goldblum played a pianist and noticing that, when shown in close-up, the pianist's hands looked like a child's compared to Goldblum's. —Tamfang (talk) 01:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

British ads: what do they mean?

If an ad for a room says "English speaking", do they mean "native speakers of English" or "fluent speakers of English"?

In an ad for a job, what is considered an "honours degree" (if you have a foreign degree)? Is that your first degree or only a degree with good grades? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 12:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

For the first question, 'English speaking' certainly does not mean 'native speakers of English'. It could mean 'fluent speakers' but more probably means 'speaks enough to get by'. As for your second question, where is the job precisely? In English universities, and honours degree is simply a non-terrible (but still potentially pretty bad; not 'good grades' by any means) first degree, while in the Scottish system, an honours degree requires a fourth year of study. Algebraist 12:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. The job is in an institute for further education. The description said: "You will need a Honours degree in Social sciences, Health Studies or a related subject". 80.58.205.37 (talk) 12:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It's explained in British undergraduate degree classification, but if your degree is not from the UK it won't really apply, and you'll have to show if your qualifications are enough to be equivalent. The institute may be familiar with degrees frrom other countries and be able to give their opinion. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have read that article, but it has no reference to recognition of foreign degrees. --80.58.205.37 (talk) 13:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

An honours degree is a 3 or four year undergraduate degree with any grade above a bare pass (in a nutshell). Just rephrasing what Algebraist said really. AlmostReadytoFly is correct in saying that if you don't have a UK degree you are going to have to have a way to show your degree is equivalent. dougweller (talk) 13:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. That would be enough to be considered as job applicant. What about "English speaker"? Are these people, who are offering the room, some sort of Londoner rednecks? Or they just want to come well along with their potential roomies?--80.58.205.37 (talk) 13:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

When considering degrees from outside the UK - it'll make a HUGE difference where you come from. Almost any full degree from a "real" US university will work - but a "granted in recognition of your life experiences" piece of order-by-mail "degree" is worthless - somewhere between those limits will be the "DeVry" type of degree. On the other hand, if you are from a country with less well known institutions - then there might be some issue. The answer is to call them up and ask - I'm sure you'll get a quick answer. As for the 'room' ad - I'm sure they just want to make sure that you speak English well enough to be understood. There is no reason to require a perfect accent and impeccable grammar - they just want to be sure they can interact with you reasonably. (Unless of course these are evil racists trying to find a reason not to rent their room to people whom they don't deem suitable for reasons that would be illegal were they to spell them out in detail!)... SteveBaker (talk) 13:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In Canada, an honours degree is the four-year version of the basic undergraduate degree (i.e. Bachelor's), in contrast with the standard three-year program. Not to be confused in any way with graduating "with honours". I did the first and certainly didn't do the second... :-) Matt Deres (talk) 14:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That's not correct for my university when I was there. An honours degree typically took 4 years and a general degree also typically took 4 years. There was a 3-year degree, called a pass degree, but I believe it was really intended as a fallback for people who tried the general program and couldn't quite pass all their courses. As well as requiring you to take more credits, the honours degree also required higher marks than the general degree, and for some courses you had to take a slightly harder version. --Anonymous, 00:02 UTC, November 19, 2008.

At the University of Victoria in Canada (I make the distinction from two posts above), a social sciences honours degree and regular degree are both 4 year degrees and require the same number of credits. An honours degree requires an additional "thesis" in each of the third and fourth years. In economics there are also two courses that are required that would only be optional in a regular BA.NByz (talk) 01:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Second oldest organization in the world

So, for completely inscrutable reasons, me and my mate were discussing what the oldest organization in the world was. Pretty quickly it became obvious that the Catholic Church wins, hands down. So, then, naturally, the question became: except for the Catholic Church, what's the oldest organization in the world? Is there one that even comes close? Any that crosses the millenium-mark?

(Organizations, for the purpose of this question, is loosely defined as some sort of centrally organized group of people who identify as part of it, with some sort of coherent structure. Like, "Islam" doesn't count, because it doesn't have a consistent structure or clearly defined leadership or hierarchy (unlike the Catholic church, which has a pope, with cardinals working for him, governing bishops, etc. etc. You can draw a chart, basically). It's just a bunch of people that believe in the same thing, not an organization per se. Also, no governments, royal lines of succession, semi-mythological organizations (I'm looking at you, Bavarian Illuminati!) or families. Think companies, clubs, sects, those sorts of things). 83.250.202.208 (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It may not qualify, given your restrictions, but China can be traced back to the Bronze age (at which time the RC church and the papacy were still a way off). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that doesn't count. Countries aren't really "organizations", are they? 83.250.202.208 (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that China counts - but then you'd have to count the dynasties separately, and few of them lasted more than four hundred years, if I recall correctly. Jørgen (talk) 19:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Chinese central state bureaucracy was established in the Qin dynasty in the late 3rd century or early 2nd century BC and continued in some form certainly till the 1911 revolution. I'm not sure if any of it survived that and the subsequent communist takeover to the present day. (There were certainly periods during that time in which the bureaucracy was in abeyance, when China had no central government, but new dynasties typically took over the old system, so I would say it was at least as continuous as the church in Rome.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 12:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

You can make the answer come out to be "The Catholic Church" if you constrain the 'rules' enough - but your constraints are pretty arbitary. The jewish faith has been around a lot longer - they have pretty consistent sets of laws and some sort of hierarchy. Excluding nations is pretty arbitary since the Catholics behaved much like a nation for most of their existence. (The "Holy Roman Empire"?!) SteveBaker (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(PITA EC!) Hinayana Buddhism has a central belief in the words of the Buddha, who came 500 years before Christ. There may be many sects, but they all believe essentially the same thing, and I am sure you would be able to find a sect that goes right back to the Buddha himself, if you really looked.--ChokinBako (talk) 19:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If we adhere to your rules (a bit loosely), I suggest that the "family" / "tribe" / "clan" far predates the RC Church. It would even predate our species and may not even have changed all that much from a pride of lions to the dysfunctional family of the Simpsons. It is, of course, not a "human made" cooperative entity, but neither is the RC Church, to believers. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a case of the Catholics behaving much like a nation. It was a case of a weird kind of monarchy pretending to be holy and Roman and an empire, none of which were true. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you guys are missing the point of the OP. There are certainly belief systems older than the Catholicism, but what about as an organizational structure? I think we get off task when we just name random stuff that is older than Catholicism, without focusing on the idea of an "organization". I would discount China because the modern China really bears no connection to the historical state as an "organization". If the oldest means "furthest continuous backwards from today", then modern China really only exists since the 1940's. No state in Europe is as old as the Catholic Church is either... And while families and tribes and clans are TYPES of organizational structures, this is about the specific organization, not merely the type of organization. Can we point to a tribe or clan with a coninuous unbroken organizational history dating as far back as the Catholic Church? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually the oldest organisation ever to exist is the roman kingdom/republic/empire. Rome was founded as a kingdom in ca. 800 BC, and the eastern half of the roman empire survived untill 1453 when it was conquered by the ottomans. That's over 2250 years. Hinduism can trace it roots back about 3,500 years, though that's not as organised as the catholic church or the romans were so I dunnno if it counts.--Patton123 20:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(EC with Jayron) Earlier answers aside, I think your answer of the Catholic Church is a perfectly reasonable condition. There's more to an organization than a common goal or belief system; you need some kind of consistent bureaucratic framework, IMO. The Jewish faith has obviously been around a great deal longer, but has there been a central, bureaucratic body that provided some kind administration or something? I'm genuinely asking, but I don't think that's so. My first thought for second place would be Japanese royalty, which has continued in unbroken succession for more than a thousand years (at least back to AD 270 (Emperor Ōjin) and possibly back to 660 BC (Emperor Jimmu)). Perhaps they deserve first after all. Matt Deres (talk) 20:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the history books of the bible the jews hae had some form of leader for msot of their history bar their time in egypt, between judges, kings and simple natural leaders.--Patton123 20:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, but countries (like the Roman Republic and the Roman and Byzantine Empires) are a different thing though! There's lost of countries that are dirt old (some version of "Sweden" has existed for at least 1900 years, and possibly way, way longer), but that's not the same thing. There's a bunch of land on Earth, it tends to get divied up and ruled by people, and when those people die, new people rule it instead. The borders grow and they shrink, but the nations themselves can live on for millenia without much effort. It's not the same thing. 83.250.202.208 (talk) 20:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

There has been a ruler in each occupied country I am familiar with, for as long as it has been continuously occupied. There have been numerous "regime changes." The history of the Roman Catholic Church is the history of the Papacy. Haven't there been similar externally imposed "regime changes " and internally imposed changes in the "form of government" in the papacy, so it is no more a "continuous organization" than the government of China was for longer periods? Symmachus in 502 took away the right of laymen to elect a Pope and restricted eligibility to higher clergy, a radical change in the form of government as dramatic as a change of dynasty in Egypt or China. In the 10th century the Pope was appointed by local Roman noble families, another drastic change equivalent to a change in the form of government in a country. In the 11th century Henry III took on himself the right to appoint the Pope, another change which should restart the clock. The clock should start again in the 14th century, when the Popes for 70 years did not reside in the see of which they were supposed to be Bishop, previously a definition of the Pope as Bishop of Rome, but in France. If the Roman Catholic Church's longevity is judged by the standards we would apply to Egypt or China, then it is 730 to 1406 1506 years old. Edison (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In the Middle Ages when various different factions decided they could appoint their own popes, there was often more than one. The church has since legitimized some of them so it looks like there is an unbroken succession, but it was certainly not that clear at the time. "The Catholic Church" as we know it now really isn't any older than the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, and you could probably argue it is less than 50 years old, after the Second Vatican Council. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on guys, it's the New World Order! -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

After looking at this I would think that some of the construction trades may well be older than the CC. Though I couldn't be sure how much "organisation" they have/had. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 00:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

How about the Sri Lankan Sangha? The Sri Lanka article describes it as having a "largely unbroken lineage" since the 2nd century BCE. Is it an unbroken organizational structure? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

How about Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia, who ruled Ethiopia until 1974? He traced his lineage back to King Solomon. Seems as likely as the current Pope having an unbroken line of predecessors in one unvarying organization dating back to the apostle Peter. Edison (talk) 07:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

How about the Althing? This springs to my mind... --Ouro (blah blah) 11:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Other Christian Churches are at least as old as Rome. The Syriac Orthodox Church possibly dates back to Saint Peter; see the lists List of Patriarchs of Antioch and List of Syriac Orthodox Patriarchs of Antioch which form a chain from 37 AD; however it has moved from Antioch to Damascus, so it doesn't have the same fixed geographical focus as the Roman church. The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria apparently dates back as an organised structure to 190 AD; the List of Coptic Orthodox Popes of Alexandria goes back to Mark the Evangelist in 43 AD, though the church presumably had no formal structure at that time. It seems to have persisted in Alexandria through all invasions, empires, and upheavals.--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 13:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I would argue the Imperial House of Japan qualifies as an organization. Its founding was in 660 BC which would make it much older than any Christian organization. —D. Monack ^talk 03:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it me?????????????

This year in June, I took my wife and my mother-in-law to Tenerife for 2 weeks in a wonderful hotel on a half-board basis. Yesterday, I contacted the Edinburgh based carrier for a quote for 2009 - same hotel - same weeks - same board basis - and discovered to my horror they have increased the pice by ----------40%. So I asked whether they were aware of the international credit crunch - the collapse of Excel and Zoom airlines - the British recession v Depression etc., etc. The operator thanked me for my call - and put the phone down. Today, I went shopping around all the competitors' branches and was SHOCKED to learn that all of their 2009 holidays had significantly increased in price over 2008. So - is it me??? Or are people spending their savings NOW as against waiting for them to collapse during some as yet unseen but feared crisis? 92.21.226.176 (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, as you said - collapse of airlines means less planes available to travel on means more demand means higher prices. Food costs have increased, fuel prices too. It all adds up. Add in soaring inflation rates... -mattbuck (Talk) 21:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(editconflict) Despite current economic conditions, there are still many many people who have money to spend. A quick look at the article Tenerife suggests that it is a wonderful place for a vacation. (You were there - is it?)

I expect the chances are good to excellent that the tourist businesses of Tenerife know that they will still be able to attract guests, despite major rate hikes. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And I'm informed that sterling has lost 25% of its value in the last few weeks. That sort of thing would tend to dent your ability to purchase a foreign holiday. I'm with the operator. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

You don't say, where you're from, or what currency the increase is in, but that could be a huge part of it. Imagine you're paying in pounds.

Let's assume that last year your vacation cost 1 pound and this year it cost 1.4 pounds.

That works out to 1.42euros then, 1.64euros now. That's only a 15% increase not a 40%.

(Assuming you bought the tickets on the 18th of November in each case. And assuming my math is right. )

APL (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the currency devaluation is likely to be the biggest chunk of this - but also, the strategy that a business takes when custom dips down is not NECESSARILY to drop prices. If their prices were already cut to the bone - then cutting them further means they're now losing money instead of making a profit. An alternative strategy is to put your prices UP on the grounds that loyal customers will come anyway - so the reduction in numbers of customers is outweighed by the profit per customer. This works especially well in service industries because they can shed a lot of unskilled workers and save money there too. So perhaps these people know their customers and have figured out that increasing their prices pushes their profits up - not down. SteveBaker (talk) 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

My biggest issue isn't with the resort's price but with your last sentence. What leads you to believe that A) people are spending their savings "NOW" just because a resort's price for 09 went up and B) the crisis is not "as yet unseen". Tell all the people who have lost their jobs and/or their homes in the last year that the crisis is unseen. Dismas|^(talk) 22:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh - I am so genuinely sorry - I hadn't realised that Wikipedia was so heavily populated by unemployed Wall Street Bankers (as were). I am in the UK - and do you know - despite the crash - I still have a choice - and do you know what else - I also have the cash? - I have decided therefore that I I I I I am in control - NOT the bankers or the travel agents - so do you know what? I am staying at home next year. And the USA - Spain - Greece - Australia - Cruises - and Israel - can all get stuffed. I shall be relaxing in my OWN country - God Bless Us All. 92.21.226.176 (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry we were unable to confirm your bias. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

We'll miss you here in the U.S. (though the Tenerife article tells me the U.S. does not include this vacationer's paradise). I don't think "the bankers" are in control (cf. Citigroup deciding it can get by with 50,000 fewer employees), and I know from working in the travel industry that the travel agents aren't, either.

Since I knew there'd be fewer cranky people there, I just checked airfares from New York to Tenerife. For a Dec. 2 departure, they ranged from $665 - $900 (which is a 35% swing). For a July 2009 trip, the range was from $1,422 - $1,763 (a 24% swing for that date, but essentially 100% higher than December). Why, I have no idea -- maybe Tenerife's more popular in July (supply and demand, not conspiracy). Maybe the airlines are pessimistic ("predictions are hard, especially about the future). Maybe the farther out people book, the likelier it is that they'll cancel (this is generally true for travel not dependent on a specific holiday like Christmas). --- OtherDave (talk) 04:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

If you buy plane tickets well in advance, you typically get them for a moderate price. If you buy them just a few days before the trip, the price is typically higher. However, if they can't fill all the seats, the price may plummet right before the flight. StuRat (talk) 15:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It's totally cool if you want to want to blow off Les États-Unis, because the joint will still be full of Brits looking at price tags, saying "No, really?" and buying half the store. Maybe that'll be a third of the store now that the pound has dropped a little. God Bless the British Tourists, Darkspots (talk) 12:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

One thing no one's mentioned yet is the influence of the oil price. Many airlines buy fuel in bulk for their anticipated needs over the next few months and maybe even a year. Since your holiday last year, the oil price has risen to record highs and even though the oil price has since fallen again, the price the airlines paid for their fuel is still the older higher price. Astronaut (talk) 16:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

November 19

Professional Paper Stapling

What is the most professional way to staple pieces of paper? Should the staple run horizontally across the page, diagonally or vertically? Acceptable (talk) 00:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

This guy has given it some thought. -hydnjo talk 02:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Basically you want to anticipate what angle the reader will fold back the stapled pages along, and put the staple parallel to that fold. For me, a slight tilt off the page's vertical seems to work best -- like the 22.5° mentioned on the page cited above, or even less. I'm surprised the guy refers to the "classic 45°", though; most people I know put the staple horizontally, which is definitely inferior. --Anonymous, 05:59 UTC, November 19, 2008.

I personally think that a vertical staple looks the most professional. Darkspots (talk) 12:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I used to buy quantities of photocopiers for a large government department. The benefit of paying the extra cost of having automatic stapling devices fitted was enormous. In my experience ALL of them had the staple at the top left corner parallel with the long side of a sheet of A4. The OP asks for the most PROFESSIONAL way but maybe he meant to ask the most appealing way? If he would prefer the staple to lie across the top edge than my response above will not apply and I don't know if automatic staplers can be made to do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.76.60 (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

That guy seems to have bought into the Golden Mean myth. -- BenRG (talk) 21:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Being a fan of Ernie I just use paper clips, see youtube Have you ever looked at a paper clip? Staples just aren't the same :) Dmcq (talk) 00:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone ever touched anyone else with a tuxedo from the extended arm of an unbent coat hanger?

Let me explain. What I'm trying to ask here is if there's a scientific/ psychological organization out there that does seeminglessly pointless and or random/bizarre experiments? There would be a purpose to it. Despite my own pointless, porposeless life (see question), I've noticed some subtle things. One of those things is that -we dont really know exactly what happens until we do it! Take a pencil and drop it. But before you do, try to picture what will happen. Chances are you didnt see that funny bounce it took. Things often dont happen exactly as pictured. You may say this is pointless, but I say all knowledge is important. So what would happen if you touched someone from ten feet away with a tuxedo, and not necessarily with an extended hanger? How about that tuxedo dangling from the end of a pipe (both the plumbers kind and the kind you smoke from)? Or stapled to the end of a solidified extension cord from 20 feet away(unplugged of course)? With or without forewarning? What if it had a "Kick Me" sign on it? I doubt this has ever been tried. The point is,- we would learn something. Maybe practical, maybe not. What if you stared at a glass for 16 hours? By yourself? Or painted a box blue and asked people to guess what was in it? What if it was orange? Would there be a pattern to the guesses with different colors? How long would it take someone to ask if there's a chunk of concrete in a grocery store? Now grocery stores dont sell chunks of concrete, but if you had the patience to stand there and eavesdrop indefinitely, well...who knows?

Sorry I rambled on. Hopefully, you get the picture. I just think that there is value in ALL questions, and have more to say about this in a future post. But, for now could you please enlighten me to any experiments of this nature. It would be greatly appreciated, and I would find it endlessly fascinating.--Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 01:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Cost-benefit analysis. Given a finite supply of time and human labour, only a certain number of activities can be carried out. We tend to choose the ones most likely to offer some sort of valuable return on our investment of time, money, and effort.

You might be able to get some sort of grant as a conceptual artist, however. They're generally paid to waste time. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

An experiment usually benefits from having an hypothesis, an experimental group(s) and control group(s). More than zero degrees of freedom are useful in statistical analysis of experimental results. Some of the gambits you describe sound like vintage Social psychology experiments, like having someone stop at a redlight, then remain stationary when the light turned green, and seeing how long it was before the car immediately behind the experimenter honked, as a function of the sex/age of the drivers, the value of the car, and the socioeconomic status of the neighborhood, or having people stand at varying distances from the subject in an elevator, and recording whether they said anything or changed their position. Or having an experimenter sit outside the library crying and seeing whether people approached, or moved away. But even they went beyond "What would happen if....." Edison (talk) 07:12, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

There are television programs which set up strange situations and then record people's reactions. Candid Camera is one of the older ones. Such programs could be considered as "experiments" along the lines you are suggesting. Wanderer57 (talk) 06:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

We do experiments - mostly - not to find a specific answer to what happens to a very specific thing under very specific conditions. What we're trying to do is to find some underlying principle that covers a whole range of similar conditions. Hence (for example) we do not attempt to prove Newton's laws of motion by giving a push to every conceivable kind of object at every conceivable speed. A suitably representative sample is plenty. Once we've deduced the underlying principle - we don't need to do any of the infinite number of other possible experiments that will just produce results that will fit the same theory. Since one can only perform just so many experiments in a lifetime, it makes sense to maximise the chances of finding out something amazing and/or useful by carefully picking experiments that are likely to fall outside the range of existing theory. The experiments that you are proposing are of exceedingly low value because it is almost certain that they'll merely confirm what we already know. Obviously we're only "almost" certain - but rather than do some very obvious experiment in order to narrow that already-tiny sliver of doubt, it's much better to pick something 'big' and probe that instead. SteveBaker (talk) 19:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

For some similar experiments, you could try looking through the Ig Nobel Prizes Steewi (talk) 23:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the Ig Nobel Prize. This sounds somewhat close to what I was getting at, but I dont think they take it far eneough. Laughing and thinking are two very important qualities to possess when trying to learn something, so I do give them credit for that. Same for shows such as Candid Camera and Trigger Happy TV. But, -they exist for entertainment purposes only. You can try to learn something if you're looking, but that's not thier stated purpose. Incidently, Trigger Happy TV is closer to the kind of ideas I have. But again, even that show's ideas weren't taken far eneough.I believe experiments should be done as extreme as possible. What we need here is scientific grain counters, if you will. Keep doing the mundane, boring, and cumbersome (but perplexly fascinating) and you'll eventually come up with something. For example, after Dom Jolly yelled into his giant cellphone, why not take people's blood pressure? Or see to what degree thier pupils dilated? How about asking if they had the sudden urge to go elsewhere? Not to avoid the scene, but to see if thier mind shifted into changing thier plans? "Why, I was going to go to my buddies house, but suddenly I have the urge to visit my crossdressing uncle..."

Did the weather change? Did they notice if certain colors around them seemed brighter? For that matter- did colors get brighter? There must be some sort of wavelenghth measurement you can take before and after of, let's say, the red fire hydrant sitting nearby. Did you say "spectrometer"? Why I happen to have one right here! Then check thier physiological reaction, to that!

Not all my experiments would involve people. Just most of them. People talk, have feelings, and are more fun to communicate with than the fire hydrant. In the absence of people, you could try for example, mixing toothpaste with Einsteinium. Or Lawrencium with fur? How about fur, Lawrencium, toothpaste and Einsteinium in a blender? Since Einsteium and Lawrencium are man made and break down quickly, you could replace them with Technetium and a stick of gum. Then try burning it (don't try this with hydrogen!). The results probably wouldn't be as exciting, but who knows, maybe you'd discover a cure for cancer? Doubtful, but has it ever been tried? What, exactly, would happen?--Hey, I'm Just Curious (talk) 18:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I want to own a real nuclear submarine.

Yes, a real one. Ideally ex-mil, don't much care whose. I don't mind if it doesn't have torpedoes or anything like that, since I'd be renovating it anyway. The questions I have are as follows: 1) Is it legal under any circumstances for a civilian to own a nuclear submarine? I assume i'd need to have a license to own and operate a research reactor? 2) Where would I legally purchase fuel for it? 3) Where do I buy a submarine anyway? Russia have any laying around? I don't mind a u-fix-it sub. 4) I want to know how to run a nuclear sub. Anyone have any manuals for them or something?

Help me achieve my Hagbard Celine fantasy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.158.193.46 (talk) 06:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Civilians are not allowed to purchase military equipments like submarine, nuclear submarine is out of question. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Any way to de-militarize it? Do we have standards for that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.158.193.46 (talk) 06:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Civilians are not allowed to have a private nuclear reactor either. Have you considered how much a submarine costs? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Any way the best way if you have a lot of money is to buy a company that makes submarines. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I've considered the cost and I have the cash. What if I formed a corporation to operate the reactor? Officially. Are there any other countries without such laws? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.158.193.46 (talk) 06:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I would disagree that it is illegal for 'civilians' to own a nuclear reactor. Some of the organisations that run nuclear reactors now are neither government nor military. However you do have to be a licensed operator, which involves a huge level of certification and monitoring. And lets not forget the amount of insurance you are going to have to carry to operate a civilian nuclear sub. And probably a whole raft of other regulations you are going to have to comply with.

Just out of interest, what are you planning on using this sub for? And if your name is Blofeld we don't want to know. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It is incorrect to say "civilians are not allowed to have....." demilitarized military equipment. Civilians own military airplanes from past wars. They own former U.S. Navy patrol boats. Civilians own tanks, which have been "demilitarized" in some fashion, as by removing the machine guns and the breach block of the cannon. A sub would probably have to have the torpedo tubes welded shut, the deck guns removes, and any ballistic missile tubes removed or welded shut. The World War 1(obviously non-nuclear) "Nautilus" was turned over to civilians for a zany attempt to reach the North Pole in 1931 [6]. Licensing of the reactor would be an issue, as would be ownership and control of the fuel. A fading superpower such as the Former Soviet Union (Russia) welcomes foreign hard currency, and might lease a sub, complete with crew, if the price were right. You could be the Skipper and travel around the world like Captain Nemo. How many million do you have? Edison (talk) 07:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

You might want to bookmark this website. These guys sell off surplus equipment from the British armed forces. Ships, aircraft and submarines have come up for sale in the past although there don't appear to be any on the website at the moment. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

And of course, legality and illegalaity vary by country. I presume that most of the above assumes the US. The situation might be different if 66.158 is a wealthy,(say) Moldovan! -- SGBailey (talk) 14:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

who.is says he/she is from Tampa, Florida, US. 132.206.22.13 (talk) 19:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

We can't give legal advice anyway, so it's not really relevant to us what jurisdiction s/he is in. If this is serious, the services of a good lawyer to go through all the relevant laws and regulations will probably be much cheaper than the submarine itself. --Random832 (contribs) 19:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

First article on Wikipedia

No, not the first one created, temporally. I saw on the main page that there is, rather quaintly, an A-Z index of Wikipedia articles. However, it only starts at 0, whereas there have to be articles that start with various symbols: ', -, =, etc. (Also, the index doesn't exactly work... if you click on, say, CZ, when it finishes that category, it goes on to Ca, and not to Da.) So what would be the first article on Wikipedia? zafiroblue05 | Talk 07:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The first actual article is !!! (!! is a disambiguation page, ! is a redirect). FiggyBee (talk) 08:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that the articles are listed not in alphabetical order but in asciibetical (or possibly unicode-al) order. Hence "punctuation, digits, more punctation, upper case, more punctuation, lower case and then a few more punctuations". -- SGBailey (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, the first article alphabetically is, not surprisingly, A. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Distance

What is the distance between London and Granada and London and Sofia? Does anyone also know flight length times? Simply south (talk) 10:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

1600 and 2000km, respectively (assuming we're talking about London in England, Granada in Spain, and Sofia in Bulgaria). Flight times will (obviously) depend on the speed of the aircraft; a Boeing 737 cruises at around 800km/h. If you want to know actual schedules, check out the online booking services of some likely airlines. FiggyBee (talk) 11:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

But, of course, a plane doesn't always fly straight or at cruising speed, so the actual trip will take longer than simple division would indicate. This tends to be more of a factor for short trips, since a higher percentage of the time is spent in departure and landing patterns, which tend to be in different directions and lower speeds than the main haul. StuRat (talk) 15:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Checking some direct flights, I found one lasting 2:45 hours from London (STN) to Granada (GRX), and flights from London (LGW) to Sofia (SOF) lasting 5:05 - 5:15 hours. If you are willing to change planes, the upper end of flight duration is open, I guess. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The longer flight takes almost twice as long even though it's only 25% further ? I wonder why that would be the case. StuRat (talk) 02:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Usa free fall

Soapboxing removed. The RefDesk is for asking questions, not posting jingoistic rants. Matt Deres (talk) 21:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

PayPal

I paid for something on eBay through PayPal with my credit card, and eBay says the payment went through, but my credit account doesn't say anything has been added to it. How long does it normally take for PayPal stuff to go through?--Newitems! (talk) 19:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The bank that your credit card is issued from may only process transactions in "batches". I know that, for example, when I make a deposit to my bank, I get a friendly warning on the ATM screen that lets me know that the transaction may take 24 hours to be processed. There may be similar lags on the credit system as well... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I find that if I make a purchase on my bank debit card I can see it appear on my online banking statement within a few minutes. Purchases made on my credit card (same bank, same online banking interface) sometimes take a day or more to become visible. ~ mazca ^t|c 20:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Would person from Seloncourt France possibly be considered Swiss?

Okay, I've gotten some great feedback here (and even helped out some with an update) with mysteries surrounding genealogical research, so I have one other one for you.

One ancestor emigrated from Seloncourt, France. The confusing part is, he's listed as being from Switzerland in the 1880 and 1900 census. And, the place name is "Salcourt." Now, if he's just giving info a cnesus taker can mishear Selconcourt as Salcourt (if he has a thicker accent), but France as Switzerland?

In your article, i found some clues - it's only a few miles from the Swiss border; very few, in fact. It wasn't even considered part of France till reabsorbed a couple decades before he came. It was Lutheran, whereas I think of most of France as Catholic. Perhaps he didn't identify himself with France, but yet on his deth certificate, it says France because they want specifics there?

Thanks, the people on here are great.Somebody or his brother (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The modern boundaries of France were not fixed until the 1940's, post World War II, but our article on Seloncourt notes that it has been an integral part of France since 1793. However, the confusion may arise as there is also a Saicourt in Switzerland, so my best guess is that the "L" in Salcourt is really an "i" and he really WAS from switzerland. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The other option is that he lived in a rural area on the Swiss side of the border, but since there is no town on that side, and the only town he could identify with was "Seloncourt", but he still identified as definitely Swiss.

Or maybe he actually was born Swiss, but lived in Seloncourt. It was frequent to cross the border to live on the other side for the locals (especially since Switzerland citizen would not be considered spies, so the French wouldn't have a problem). I am also from the Swiss border, and the people crossing the border on a regular basis to live on either side is quite significant, they feel part of the same community. This was so in my youth long before Switzerland was thinking of joing the Schengen treaty. --Lgriot (talk) 06:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Your ancestor may have been 'from' both France and Switzerland - for instance, born in one and resident in the other, or even domiciled in both (at different times or at the same time). Generally speaking, in the 19th century there was less certainty in people's minds about nationality than there is now, especially in such border regions, and it's possible (indeed, likely) that this man never held a passport. He may have been able to be a Frenchman when it suited him and a Swiss at other times. Strawless (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Laundry at home - rinsing with cold or warm water

Dear RefDeskers, I come to you yet again for guidance on life's most important matters. It had so happened recently that I have obtained through purchase a top-loaded washing machine like the one shown here. This model, just for clarity, has a larger rotating drum for your washing and rinsing, and a smaller for spinning. Water has to be supplied from the shower or a hose, and is drained via another hose (we take water from the shower and empty the waste bath also to our shower).

Anyhow, today as I was doing the laundry (yes, I am that kind of boyfriend) we had a discussion whether one should use warm or cold water for rinsing. I am for using cold water, primarily because my old wardrobe-sized commie washing machine used cold water, and the missis is for using warmer water because it doesn't hurt the hands as much.

So, the question is - which one is better to rinse laundry, warm water (call it room temperature warm) or cold water (cold like tap cold). Thanks for your input, answers from specialists will be appreciated. Cheers, Ouro (blah blah) 21:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Better, what, for the clothes? Because better for your energy bill is rinsing and washing everything in cold. --Moni3 (talk) 21:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I wash all my laundry in cold water as it does a better job preventing bleeding, especially bright reds (yes, I throw my colors in with my whites). Useight (talk) 22:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

(EC with above) However, warm water better dissolves things than does cold water. This is both good and bad. It is good because dirt and soap will be rinsed away more effectively; it is bad because so won't dyes and other material from the clothes. Thus, using warm water makes your clothes cleaner on average, but also reduces the life of your clothes. Such is the trade-off, and the debate between which is "better" for your clothes is probably never ending... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

If you're willing to spend more for enzyme-based laundry soap, cold water will get your clothes as clean as traditional soap and warm water. --Carnildo (talk) 22:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't really care about my bills that much - my skin and comfort are more important. We use liquid detergent that can be used both for hand washing and machine washing, and I usually separate clothes as follows: socks+undies, t-shirts, pants, hoodies+sweaters, not by colours, because most of my stuff is usually black to begin with (althouth I used to split my clothes in two groups: black and colour)). From your answers so far I am almost willing to start rinsing my clothes with warmer water. Will wait for more though, so far thanks, friends! --Ouro (blah blah) 22:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Just a comment - twin-tubs (which is what your type of washing machine is called in British English) are great, they clean much better than automatics. I didn't know one could still get them though. DuncanHill (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

They're a cheap and efficient way to do your laundry, and are readily available here. For ours we paid the equivalent of around EUR 90. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

€90? New? DuncanHill (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

TV adverts with mimed voices

I often see ads where a person is saying something, but it’s obviously, and I mean really obviously, not their own voice. More than that, often the voice is quite noticeably out of synch with the lip movement - not by a whole second or anything, but still enough to be noticeable. I see this most often with ads for women’s products (hair, beauty, etc). These days, with all the high-tech stuff they have, one would have thought that synchronising a person’s voice to another person’s mouth (or even their own mouth) would be a piece of cake. But no. I’ve often wondered what they hope to achieve by such shoddy production, or do they assume women wouldn’t notice, or if they do notice, they wouldn’t care? Does this happen in other countries, or is it merely a manifestion of the Australian "she'll be right, mate" attitude? I hope that doesn’t come across as a rant; I am genuinely intrigued. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:09, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It is widespread in the Mother Country too. If I had asked the question it would certainly have come across as a rant! DuncanHill (talk) 23:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I haven't noticed in the States. At least not in the Modern Era, as it were (defined as whenever it was that they started using CGI that you couldn't tell was CGI).

I've sometimes wondered what it would be like if you could take just an everyday commercial, chosen at random, and show it to audiences from 1975. I bet they'd be blown away, want to nominate it for all sorts of awards. Granted there were a few standouts from that era ("Ski Bandini Mountain!") but for the most part this is an arena in which we've made huge progress, for whatever that's worth. --Trovatore (talk) 23:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can remember 1975, almost everything was better than it is today. We didn't watch much ITV though, so I probably couldn't comment on the adverts. DuncanHill (talk) 01:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'm shocked that marketing people think we're more convinced by a badly-dubbed Australian accent than an foreign (ie, American) accent, and even more shocked that they're right - if market research didn't show a benefit to dubbing, they wouldn't do it! FiggyBee (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a Cheerios commercial with a British couple, which uses the actors' voices in Canada, but is extremely badly dubbed with American voices on American channels. It's really annoying. I guess they assume Americans won't buy hoity-toity British Cheerios? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I've noticed that one. I do remember that Mad Max was dubbed for American distribution (though Mel Gibson did his own dubbing) because the distributors claimed Americans couldn't understand the Australian accents. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 00:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

But at the same time they use actors with noticeable accents so they stand out, such as Frederik de Groot. And Arnold Strong's voice was dubbed in Hercules in New York because of his accent.

I'd always assumed it was because they were using the same video with the audio in different languages (sometimes the dubbing clearly isn't even the same words). I hadn't realised they did it just for accents, but I guess it make sense - you want people concentrating on the product, not the accent. --Tango (talk) 02:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Some very famous films were badly dubbed, and not for obvious reasons. Sergio Leone's "man with no name" trilogy of Spagetti Westerns, for example, were shot "silent" with all dialog added in post production. In The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, for example, the three main characters are all played by Americans (Clint Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef, and Eli Wallach). However the dubbing was so bad, for Wallach in particular, that you'd swear it was another actor dubbing his lines. It wasn't; it was Wallach's own voice, but it was badly done. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I gather that was common practice in Italian cinema at the time. —Tamfang (talk) 02:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense, Tango. And yet, women's products ads in Australia are often the original US ad, with the original US voice. We have no difficulty in understanding them, because they're usually spoken in, if anything, an over-enunciated way like Leeza Gibbons does, but I do have some difficulty in understanding why an ad obviously created for the US market is used without any voice changes in other countries. The relatability angle appears to be less of an issue with women's products than with men's products. But other ads use home-grown actors and voices, but clearly sometimes the mouth and the voice are not from the same people. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not all models are spokesmodels and need dubbing, is one suggestion. Does that mean the blonde saying Jepstar with her lips, actually is? I thhought I was seeing things. Then again, body parts aren't always their own either. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I've always figured they use the original voice if we're supposed to know who she is, and dub it if it's just an anonymous model, Jack. FiggyBee (talk) 07:43, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no issue with dubbing, if that's what they decide to do. It's just the lack of professionalism in the way they they do it that mystifies me. If Milli Vanilli had employed this standard, they would have been exposed on Day 1. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Re Milli Vanilli; it's much easier to mime to an existing soundtrack than to dub to existing vision. FiggyBee (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK it's common on a lot of adverts that are used across Europe - so the original advert may not have an English-speaker hence the different mouth shaping to the voice. I think this is done to reduce advertising costs for companies. I find it very annoying, but not as annoying as changing the name of Marathon chocolate bars to Snickers, or Jif cleaning products to Cif to appease a pan-European market!! --KizzyB (talk) 10:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This is purely anecdotal, but some years ago I was speaking to a marketing manager for a large UK manufacturing company, specifically regarding the men's hair colouring product, Just for Men. There was a commercial running at the time which suffered from exactly this phenomenon - a clearly US advert badly re-dubbed to give the actors plummy English accents. Anyway, this marketing man claimed that this was a well used advertising technique. The advert is annoying, as already stated, and is therefore memorable. The product already appears successful in another country and when we see this badly executed re-hash of an existing advert we think: "Cheapskate advertisers couldn't be bothered to make a new ad, dang and blast 'em" - but we place the blame squarely on the ad men and tend to trust the product. Don't know what others will make of this, but it seemed to make sense at the time. This conversation was ten years ago and I still remember the name of the product. Anonymous Bob (talk) 12:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so you're saying they deliberately do it this way to make pernickety people like me notice them? In a perverse sort of way, that actually makes some sense. They have all the advantages of modern technology at their disposal, but they choose not to use them because seamless ads that would just wash over people with little chance of retention is the very thing they don't want. Well, obviously their dastardly plot is working. Trouble is, I'm never going to buy those products anyway. If I were in the market, I might be swayed by a more sophisticated way of making me notice them. But these bottom drawer tactics actually decrease whatever small chance I might have of buying the products. I hope you're reading this, marketers. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it's the difference between an ad designed to enhance desire for the product (increase the market size), and one designed to enhance product recognition (increase the market share). An annoying ad isn't going to make you want to dye your hair if you didn't want to already, but it *might* make you pick that brand out when you're standing in front of the hair dye display in the supermarket. FiggyBee (talk) 13:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I remember c.1996 watching an episode of Friends in Ireland. In the ad break, Jennifer Aniston came on advertising something (shampoo?) I found the American accent very jarring in the context, even though I'd just spent c.15 minutes listening to American accents. jnestorius^(talk) 14:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Is bad advertising the new "good" ?

It seems that the more annoying the ad, the better it does, in the case of badly dubbed ads, ads which don't even try to sell the product ("I'm a PC !"), and the headache producing "HEAD ON !" ads. So, would an ad featuring a dog defecating on the product be the most successful yet ? StuRat (talk) 02:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

November 20

American Expat Tax Refund upon Leaving the UK

I'm an American expat who has been living and working in the UK for several years. I shortly plan to leave the country and have heard that it is possible for non-UK citizens to get their income taxes refunded when they leave. However, I have not been able to find any useful information on the government tax website. Does anyone out there know if this is true? If so, where does one go to begin the refund process.

Thank you for any help,

--Wellington grey (talk) 07:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It's complicated and you're not going to get a definitive answer to your particular circumstances from anyone on this desk. You really need to speak to an accountant. Get a recommendation if possible, or look one up in the Yellow Pages (they must hold a recognised accountancy qualification such as ICAEW or ACCA). The first thing you need to do is establish your residency status in the UK, which will determine your liability to tax. And in fact there is plenty of information on the HMRC website. Look at this page and this one for starters. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly possible. I managed something similar when I moved from the UK to Canada, and it hinged on the different definitions of being 'resident' for tax purposes in the two countries. Unfortunately this time of year is not the best to do this, as the UK will almost certainly consider you have been 'resident' for this year if you are moving now. However I may be wrong, and things may have changed, and the US is different from Canada, so you should absolutely consult a tax accountant with international experience. And check it at both ends, as you might be able to persuade the US that you are not resident for a tax year. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Will my sister grow taller than me?

I'm 16 and my little sister is almost 13. I'm 5'6" and my sister is 5'3" and still growing. Our parents are average height, our mum is 5'4" and our dad is 5'10" and a half. I started puberty earlier than my sister and I was 5'3" by the time I was 11 and a half. The thing I noticed lately is that my sisters hips are level with mine, and I don't have short legs by any means. She has grown 3 inches in the past year, will she end up taller than I am? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 12:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Height is determined by a variety of things so it's not a set thing but i've heard that a good guide is: Take the average height of your parents and for a boy add 6-12cm and for a girl minus 6-12cm. Of course any such measurement is very crude and probably not that reliable. By the by I was about 5'7/8 when i was 16 and ended up at 6'2. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no real way to tell. Growth patterns are of course genetic, but like the difference between "weather" and "climate", there is a big difference between genetic trends in families and the specific manifestation of those trends in isolated cases. At any point your sister may stop growing, or may grow right past you. As an anecdotal example; in the 8th grade I was the tallest person in my class, however I stopped growing at that age, and all my classmates passed me. My brother, on the other hand, was always shorter than I was at his age (i.e. he was shorter at 12 than I had been at 12, etc.) which continued until I went away to college. He grew 6 inches in one year, thus passing my height while I was away. Very disconcerting. Since he was 16 he has been taller than I am, and he really didn't stop growing until he was 18 or 19. Totally different growth patterns, though we both come from the same gene pool... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Same thing with me. As a child, I was always the tallest or second-tallest kid in my class, towering over both boys and girls. I also appeared older for my age because of it. Everyone thought for sure I would end up super-tall and well, I'm lucky to be over five feet. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 14:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

My experience was less dramatic - at school I was generally taller than most, but not exceptionally tall. I topped out at 6'2", which I think you'll agree is still taller than most but not exceptionally tall! Both me and my brother ended up exactly the same height but my parents were 5'10" and 5'6", so we gained a good four inches on my dad - perhaps due to better nutrition growing up. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Nutrition can certainly have a significant effect on height, it's true. --Tango (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

My friend's brother was shorter than almost all the kids in his class until he was 13, but now he's 5' 11" so... Tezkag72 (talk) 22:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed we can't be definitive about this. But there are some broad-brush averages that give some insight. According to Growth_spurt#Conclusion, boys finish gaining height at age 18 and girls at 15. So both you and your sister have two more years of growth. But girls go through this spurt in less time - so the rate they grow in that final spurt is faster so she stands a chance of catching you up. Conclusion: Probably, you'll probably stay ahead of her - but probably it'll probably be closer than it is right now...probably. SteveBaker (talk) 00:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Steve, I think the OP is a girl. Darkspots (talk) 01:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

They let girls in here? How are we gonna talk about — you know? —Tamfang (talk) 02:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Stuff? Darkspots (talk) 02:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I gained an inch or two after 18, if memory serves after thirty years. —Tamfang (talk) 02:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

November 21

Ornlu the Wolf

What is the story behind the recurring character Ornlu the Wolf in the Age of ____ series, or is he entirely original? (Ornlu appears in Age of Empires 2 in the first Ghengis Khan scenario, Age of Empires 2 Expansion in the Vinlandsaga scenario of the Conquerors campaigns and as a cameo (renamed "Son of Ornlu) in some scenario in the Montezuma campaign, and in Age of Mythology (or the expansion?) as both a hero unit derived from the Fenris Wolf Brood unit, and as the relic "Eye of Ornlu".) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.218.79 (talk) 00:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Given that a searches for "ornlu wolf" and "ornlu myth" get no likely looking hits in Google Books, it is probably original to the game (compare to say, a search for fenrir wolf). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

no belly button

kelly kurkova has nobelly button, how is this possible? where did her umbilical cord come out of? virgin birth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.145.61 (talk) 01:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I assume you mean Karolina Kurkova. There's an article on this here. It's probably the result of some surgery she had as a baby or child. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Which Cypher is This?

I am trying to decode the following cypher, however, I do not know which cypher it it. Is there any way to find out? (Please check to see if it works out before answering.)

Esheo Aorht Disas Eomta

Keyword: Death (don't ask)

Thanks in advance.

--Chaffers (Something | Something else) 03:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)