Talk:Turanism

This article was nominated for deletion on December 2, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep and cleanup. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Robert 01:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Links

The following links are from List of Turanism related subjects, which now redirects to this article.

http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/cenasia/hypermail/200104/0023.html

Let me start by saying that I employ Pan-Turkism and Turanism as identical terms. Thus I do not agree with Georgeon and Landau who argue that pan-turanism means unity of Turks, Hungarians, Mongolians and the Finns.

http://www.turcoman.btinternet.co.uk/frontiers-turkestan.htm Turkestan and Turan

http://www.realchange.nareg.com.au/ch3.htmTheir country is a vast and eternal land: Turan!"

http://www.kongar.org/aen_tr.php There was a revision of the Pan-Turanism of Ziya Gokalp

http://egemenlikulusundur.net/ustat/tarkul/alpch12.htm Central Asian Identity under Russian Rule

http://www.pafaculty.net/~history/h100/glossary.html Middle East Dictionary

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/992/cichocki.html ALPAMYSH AND CENTRAL ASIAN IDENTITY UNDER RUSSIAN RULE

http://eurasia-research.com/erc/001cam.htm SUN IS ALSO FIRE

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/128.html Nationality or religion?

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/125.html "Basmachi:" Turkistan National Liberation Movement 1916-1930s

http://www.ku.edu/~ibetext/texts/paksoy-2/cam1.html SUN IS ALSO FIRE

http://www.geocities.com/enver1908/enver.html Ismail Enver was born in Constantinople on 23 November 1881

http://www.turkiye.net/sota/paksoyt1.html

http://aton.ttu.edu/ Uysal - Walker Archive

http://www.iccrimea.org/gaspirali/ 150th anniversary of the birth of Ismail Bey Gaspirali, a Crimean Tatar leader

http://www.euronet.nl/users/sota/gaspirali.html Ismail Gaspirali (1851-1914)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9724/Tatar_FAQ-shs006.html Who are the Crimean (Kyrym) Tatars?

http://www.tatar.ro/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=MostPopular Tatar music

http://www.turcoman.btinternet.co.uk/turkism.htm Pan-Turkism Past Present and Future

http://www.peoples.org.ru/tatar/eng_099.html PAN-TURKISM: PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE

http://members.tripod.com/~fantasian/gw.html Gray Wolves

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/past_scanner/04_07_97/scanner.htm some people have discovered Turkes

http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2002/04/culture/cul4.htm http://english.pravda.ru/culture/2001/11/01/19783.html A multicultural Ukraine and Russia???

http://www.greece.org/genocide/books/miracle/page135-136.html Since 1965, it has found expression in the Turkish parliament

http://www.riga.lv/minelres/archive/01261999-13%3A47%3A59-4881.html CRIMEAN TATAR HEADQUARTERS FIREBOMBED

http://www.soros.org/fmp2/html/july1999.html Forced Migration Monitor

http://www.iccrimea.org/scholarly/emigrations.html

http://www.turkey.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=5984&pagenumber=8 Who were the ancestors of Turks?

http://www.loc.gov/rr/amed/neareast.html The Near East Section of the African and Middle Eastern Division

http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_giris_2.htm Ozturkler

http://www.cilicia.com/armo19j.html AUTONOMOUS REGION OF MOUNTAINOUS (NAGORNO-)KARABAGH

http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/EPS/people/Shorish_Jadidism.html Back to Jadidism: Turkistani Education After the Fall of the USSR

http://www.rferl.org/newsline/2003/01/230103.asp Russian problems

http://www.cilicia.com/Plagiarism.htm FROM NONSENSE TO NATIONHOOD: A DANGEROUS TRAJECTORY OF AZERBAIJANI NATIONALISM

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Berkeley/9423/randoku1999-5.html Nationalism in Japanese

http://www.cncho.pe.kr/kric/kric/%B9%CE%C1%B7%B0%B3%C8%B24.htm Nationalism in Korean

http://turkistani.5u.com/

http://www.nsjap.com/axis/history.html Japanese Racial Movement – Turanism / Turanianism---Japanese language belongs to the Turanian (Ural-Altaic-Sumerian) family of language. (Turanian is to Ural-Altaic-Sumerian as Aryan is to Indo-European)

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~budapest/Japanese/Istanbul%20sketch.htm Hungarian immigrants greatly contributed to the international culture of Istanbul

http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/creeca/RCEEE/2002_ind.htm Russian, Central Eurasian, And East European Specialty Group

http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/tria/tria30.htm Joseph A. Kessler, Turanism and Pan-Turanism in Hungary

http://www.google.ca/search?q=turanism+hungarian&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 Google: turanism Hungarian

http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22Arrow+Cross+Party%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta= Google: "Arrow Cross Party"

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=japan+turanism&meta= Google: japan turanism

http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/turkey/turkey14.html Köprülü Era

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/2697/tbhrhrw6.html Denial of Ethnic Identity

http://www.cc.org.cn/wencui/oldwencui/zhoukan/1110adaa05.htm Turanism in Chinese

http://www2.4dcomm.com/millenia/SU-N.HTM Hungarian etymology

Permission was given I am not violating any copy right laws as I have asked and gotten permission from the author before hand. However you are right I will personalise it, I was given permission to do this, and asked if possible to reference the author Dr. Kaveh Farrokh. Which I will, I will spend this week on the article and try to shed the political parts and concentrate not on what they did but what it is. And add their claims etc. The object of my goal is to explain exactly what Turanism is, thier objectives and what they represent and claim.

I am hoping that is ok with wikipedia and not against any of its policy? As permission by the Author was given to me to copy and reproduce his work. Therefor I am only usuing parts of his work that deals with Turanism and not the whole book. --Aryan Khadem 23:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not believe any neturality is in voilation as Pan-Turanism is a political movement that teaches propoganda. IF I am in violation I will like ot hear your opinion on the talk.

--Aryan Khadem 23:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

the current form of the article, due to aryan's massive edit, has an alarmist anti-turanism propaganda tone, which is unencyclopaedic. it also contains many factual inaccuracies.--Calm 16:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You Claim false inaccuracies, where? Pan-Turanism is a political movement that teaches false history, how is my article anti? I can bring up evidence of pan-turan movement falsities. Do not alter or bring up personal views, I have given numerous references, iof you dispute it come up with something solid other then opinion please --Aryan Khadem 00:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Copyright violation

you claim to have permission to use the text from the websites you use,, however text "with permission only" cannot be used in wikipedia since that is not compatible with GFDL licensa under which all text in wikipedia must be licensed. -- ( drini's _vandalproof page ☎ ) 07:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

When I typed Turanism and did a search it came upon this:

"Turanism, or Pan-Turanism, is a political movement for the union of all Turkic peoples, and as such is equivalent to Pan-Turkism. Georgeon and Landau extended Pan-Turanism, however, to be not only unity of all Turks, but also unity of Turks with Hungarians, Mongolians and Finns."

So I decided to expand on it, the best source and author on the subject is Dr. Kaveh Farrokh who is on the Persian Gulf Board Member and is also a member of Iranian Linguistics Society, who teaches at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada. He is a leader in his feild and wrote historical and other books, he contribution on pan-Turanism or pan-Turkishism is vast when I asked him about copying it this was his reply

"I posted the book for free for the benefit of all (I cancelled my book contract so that I could do this). If possible, it would be nice if my name was mentioned as a courtesy. Otherwise, please feel free to copy as much as you need and as much as you wish. I am indeed honored." - Dr, Kaveh Farrokh

I altered some of his work, and felt it unecessary to delet most of it, and wanted to honour his contribution, this man cancelled his book contract just to write about pan-Turanism. It is in respect to him his research with references was put up, also if you look at the talk, many many pages dispute the claims of pna-turanism, and it is stated as a terrorist political movement, if you notice I did not really mention that or call it a terrorist organisation but explained its, history, beliefs, origins and assocation, it is a indepth article and that is well written.

There is no linguistic, genetic, historical evidence of many of Pan-turanist claims as well as lookingat the above explanationm before my expansion it claims that Finns, Mongols, and Hungarians are Turks and share the same history, So Drini can you please put the article back on, as you see so far on the vote it is 2:1 lets bring this case foward.

Thank you to Drini and whoever else reads this. --Aryan Khadem 23:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

---

All the ideologically biased claims regarding Pan-Turanism as being a racist "Nazi" ideology which falsifies history ignore the fundamental facts:

1. There is still very little accurate data and knowledge about the Turanians in the West.

2. Most of the ancient written historical documents about the Turanians are from European, Arab, Persian, and Chinese sources. Most of these sources are heavily biased and seek to project an unfavourable image of the Turanians as primitive barbarians.

3. "Pan-Turanism" was born from the desire to liberate and reunite the Turanian peoples oppressed by Persia, China and Russia.

4. The historical evidence shows that Turan (Central Eurasia) saw the development of a highly evolved civilization of Sumerian (Mesopotamian) origin (S.P. Tolstov: Ancient Chorasmia). The Sumerians were the creators of the first known civilization, the inventors of agriculture, metallurgy, the wheel, writing, and astronomy, among others (S.N. Kramer: History begins at Sumer).

The 19th century researchers who discovered and studied the ancient Mesopotamian Sumerian language determined that it was related to the Turanian languages (M. Érdy: The Sumerian Ural-Altaic Magyar Relationship). Comparative linguistic analysis indicates that of all known ethno-linguistic groups, the Hungarian, Turkic, Caucasian and Finnic languages are by far the closest to Sumerian (K. Gosztony: Dictionnaire d'étymologie sumérienne et grammaire comparée). This is confirmed by archeological and anthropological evidence which shows that thousands of years ago, the Sumerians and other related Near Eastern peoples settled in the vast region of Central Eurasia from the Carpathian basin to the Altai mountains, from the Urals and Siberia to Iran and India (L. Götz: Keleten Kel a Nap (The Sun Rises in the East)).

The descendants of these Sumerian-related peoples were known as the Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Parthians, Chorasmians, Kushans, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Khazars and Magyars, among others, and gave rise to the Finnic and Turkic-Mongolian ethnic groups. These Turanian peoples created flourishing cultures and states which exerted a determining influence on the peripheral Eurasian cultures of Europe, the Middle East, Persia, India, and China, as well as on the formation of the various Eurasian ethno-linguistic groups. For further reference see Historical Chronology: http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/magyar/tor/chron.htm

5. It would be in the West's interest that a strong independent Turanian bloc would consolidate in Central Eurasia because this would act as a counterweight to the West's most dangerous enemies: the Iranian-backed islamic fundamentalism, the anti-western pan-slavist Russian imperialism, and the equally anti-western Chinese imperialism.

Webmaster hunmagyar.org

---

I want you to back your arguement, Medes and Persians are the same race and spoke the same languguage, however no turkish migration till 1100 AD, also Sumerian was actually related to Iranic languages, you speak of oppression however there is not evidence of this, there are no anthropoloical or archaeological evidence of Turkisj peoples in central asia or caucas or the near east and middle east before AD period. And even the word Turan is actually Farsi and not Turkish, and Turkish borrowed heavily on Perisan words there are eveidence for this linguistically and anthropological. So please back your claims up with evidence! --Aryan 14:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"also Sumerian was actually related to Iranic languages" Not true. There is no evidence on any relations of Sumerian to any language, but it is known, that it can not be related to Indo-european languages. - Fagyd

Aryan and Fagyd: refer to evidence cited on discussion page of Turan article. - Webmaster hunmagyar.org

I already have. It doesn't seem very solid to me. But, for preventing ani misunderstanding, I personally have nothing against you.

Türkeş?!

Alparslan Türkeş's party didn't and also won't be defending Turkish Nationalism because they see Kurds as brothers of Turks. His ideology can be considered as a "traditionalist- Islamic democrat". Of course they defend the Turkish side in many situations and they deserve respect for these acts but still they haven't complete their duties to become a full nationalist movement. Deliogul 13:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

note:I tried to show the logic of the Turan here. Don't get it wrong and start to cut Kurds please. Wow, where was my brain at when I was writing such things. Deliogul 21:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions

Guys are you telling me that Finns and Koreans and Mongols and Japanese are Turks? They do not even look alike to me! Let alone languages and skin color! Am I missing something? Kiumars 14:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Koreans and Japanese are different from us and they are not included in Turan. On the other hand, Mongols and Turks aren't the same but Mongols are the Turan brothers(also the defenders of the Kızıltuğ) of Turks. Also Hungarians and Finns forgot their origins centuries ago and they see themselves as Europeans today so they are also not included in Turan. With respect; Deliogul 12:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're mixing this article up with Pan-Turkism (the two topics are similar but not the same). —Khoikhoi 22:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Hungarians, Finns and Estonians aren't even Altaic but Uralic, so why should they be included here? --MushroomCloud 18:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Who says Turanism includes only Altaic peoples? According to the Turan article, "it is primarily an ideological term designating Turkic, Mongolic and Finno-Ugric languages and people more or less indiscriminately". —Khoikhoi 20:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Turan is the land of Turkic people. It includes modern day settlements and, traditionally, the Central Asia. It is about coming together for the Turkic unification so even if Koreans and Finns are genetically Turkic, they are not included in the borders of the Turan. With respect, Deliogul 19:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. Perhaps in Turkish, but in English the term also includes Mongolic and Finno-Ugric peoples in addition to Turkic peoples. Since when are Koreans and Finns genetically Turkic?

Also note, Delioğul, that there is a fringe group in Japan called the National Socialist Japanese Workers and Welfare Party who essentially combine Nazism and Turanism. This shows that Japanese are sometimes included as well. —Khoikhoi 23:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Ups, how come I didn't see your reply! Mongols are traditionally included in Turan so there is no problem about them. On the other hand, Korea and Japan are at far lands, even further than archrival Chinese Empire. Traditional tribes of the Central Asia don't have any common history with them. I also want to know one thing. Why this article is this short. It isn't what it used to be?! Deliogul 21:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Turanism is similar to the "Aryan race" or "Indo-European" political movements in the early 20th century, both share a common belief of their "great race" of people originated from Central Asia and how "they" contributed to world civilization. The Nazis wanted to include Japan (then a wartime ally) as a "Turanian" people, along with the Thais, Tibetans, Hindis, Iranians, Arabs or Semites (not Jews) and "Turanians" into the list of peoples the Nazi approved of, but excluded Jews and darker-skinned peoples (i.e. Africans). Hitler didn't consider non-Germanic Europeans (esp. Slavs like the Poles, Latin Americans or Mediteranneans and Romanies/Gypsies) as equal and mentioned non-Caucasians are "inferior" to his "Aryan race" theories.

The proto-Turks and proto-Aryans have a homeland located between the Caspian and Aral seas, and the Caucuses and Himalyas ranges. But the "Aryans" are supposedly white Germanic or Celtic people (which is generally false), compared to the Turks are composed of "white" Europeans and "yellow" east Asians, but the Siberians who are close relatives of American Indians in North (or South) America are included in the "Turanist" movement. Many Turks share a religious, cultural and historic link with Arabs, Iranians and North Africans, while some Turanists linked black Africans the same way they linked white "Aryans" or correctly, Europeans and Malaysian-Polynesians of Southeast Asian origins.

Also to consider the Bahai faith which was rooted in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Istael strongly objected to racial categories and negative nationalism, but on all human beings are the same and based on scripture out of the Bible, Torah and Koran, the Bahaists believe all mankind came out of present-day Turkey (""Garden of Eden"?) to explain the theories about a close anthropological connection of Turks with Europeans, Africans, Asians, Australoids and Amerindians. Maybe we need a pan-human movement other than further dividing and hatred against other "races", since I've connected how the Turanians and Aryan movements are alike. [ url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai#Human_beings] +71.102.53.48 (talk) 08:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

TÜRKEŞ!!!! HE IS ISLAMIST CHERKESS!!!!!!!

Alparslan Türkeş and MHP isn't Turanist, they are islamist! Turanism article have a lot of wrong things. Turanism is shamanist and racist ideology. Key personalities are wrong so. Turanism don't think Ryukyians or Koreans... Turanian peoples are for Turanism ideology: Magyars and Mongol-Turks only!!! Turanism is racist, realist not romantist!!!! Please rewrite this article JOHN! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.226.67.173 (talk • contribs) 04:13, 30 September 2006.

John you are rude but right. Only wrong statement you make is this religion thing. Turanism doesn't include any kind of religion in it (even not include our historical beliefs, like shamanism). Turan contains Turkic people and our Turan brothers and its major goal is to unite all those people on our historical homelands under the red flag (the Kızıltuğ). By the way, I said all those you said in different times on this page but nobody cares. With respect, Deliogul 15:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Reha Oğuz Türkkan?!

You can read about the true face of Reha here[1]. He had mental problems which possibly abandon him from thinking about Turan etc. Deliogul 21:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

edit:Don't keep adding this guys name here because he was far from being a key personality. Deliogul 15:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijan in Eastern Europe?

According to the United Nations definition, the state of Azerbaijan lies in Western Asia. If one includes it into Eastern Europe, then one should also include Kazakhstan, which has an equally tiny and questionable part in this region (though one might argue that it's in Southern Europe). As far as I know, Pan-Turanism is comparatively popular there. And what of the Tatars? --22:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Turan Is Bad

Captivity is an unacceptable term for the Turkic nation. 88.244.214.76 (talk) 19:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Atatürk

Atatürk is not Turanism.Key persons should be removed from.

• Not recognize any borders, a state in the world as to combine all the Turks, is a goal not be reached. M.K.Atatürk[2]

Sorry for my terrible English.I don't know English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.163.200.70 (talk) 16:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm going to remove him, since my study of the topic has always indicated that Attaturk never held any Turanian delusions. Burnthisname (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Kaveh Farrokh's article

The article by Mr. Farrokh is a combination of some very interesting research with conspiracy theory nonsense. I refer in part to the Bernard Lewis project based heavily on LaRouche sources. I think we'd be better off without such references; they're an embarrassment to the Wikipedia standards.

Kaveh Farrokh's article

The article by Mr. Farrokh is a combination of some very interesting research with conspiracy theory nonsense. I refer in part to the Bernard Lewis project based heavily on LaRouche sources. I think we'd be better off without such references; they're an embarrassment to the Wikipedia standards. QLineOrientalist (talk) 01:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)