Talk:Britain

Older comments

Why is a page about Britain even mentioning Ireland? Ireland may have been part of the United Kingdom at one time, just as Northern Ireland now is (no ambiguity there) but it has not been part of Britain (or vice-versa) since the last Ice Age. However the article sems to claim that it was part of Britain until 1921!

This article is very misleading and I'm inclined to ditch the references to Ireland unless someone can come up with good reasons not to. -- Derek Ross

We already have articles on Great Britain, the British Isles, England, Scotland, Wales, and the United Kingdom. Is this article even necessary? -- Zoe

A very good point -- Derek Ross

Redirecting this article to Great Britain - I think we agree that the contents are unneccessary. KJ 17:45 Aug 3, 2002 (PDT)

I disagree about the redirect, agree the contents need changing.

According to The Oxford Companion to the English Language, when Ireland entered the Union in the early 19th century, it was referred to as "West Britain" (I don't know who by) - see http://www.xrefer.com/entry/441278 Whether this should be under "Britain" or "Great Britain" I'm not sure, but I should think the former. There is also the historical use of "Britain" before "Great Britain" was thought of. You have Great Britain the island, West Britain (for a time), and Brittany (Little Britain if you like) in France. I don't know enough about this to elaborate, but it seems there could be a decent historical article here.

Also, many of the English (and maybe others, I don't know) refer to the UK as "Britain" in speech - perhaps this rather subtle twist resulted in the somewhat messed up article that was here. A note pointing this out could be useful. In any case, surely "Britain" alone deserves an article. I'll do a bit of research and see if I can put something together. --Camembert

This is old news now, but I want to go back on what I said here - I now think that it's correct that Britain should redirect to Great Britain (I reserve the right to change my mind again later...). --Camembert

I think the "West Britain" discussion belongs in British Isles. A particularly interesting point for that article is whether Ireland was always part of the "British Isles" or whether it was added as "West Britain".

"West Britain" may be by analogy with "North Britain" for Scotland and "South Britain" for England which were also coined by some the more zealous Unionists in the 19th century. However none of these terms came into general use by the British or Irish population apart from in company names like The North British Railway. There is a small amount of logic in calling Scotland and England, "North Britain" and "South Britain", whereas calling Ireland "West Britain" just seems silly. Most Britons and Irishmen would think that West Britain meant Wales or Cornwall -- never Ireland. No doubt that's why it didn't catch on even in Unionist circles. You could add this North/South/West Britain info to the Great Britain article or the Ireland article if you really think it worthwhile but I don't see that we need a separate "Britain" article for it. -- Derek Ross -- Derek Ross

The BRitain/great brittan/brittany thing is already explained on the great britain article... KJ

It's probably OK to redirect Britain and British to Great Britain, if the latter article discusses the terms and explains the confusion. One possible confusion would be if people from other islands describe themselves or are described by others as "British". It should be easy to explain why the NI Unionists are sometimes called "British" by the (rest of) the Irish.

Also, what's the correct term to describe a citizen of the UK, if it's not "British"? I guess it's "UK subject"?

Accoring to this discussion, articles like: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1815014.stm 'Gibraltar wants to remain British' quote: "Gibraltar has been British for nearly 300 years and we want to continue to be British. We don't want to be Spanish." don't make a lot of sense. Perhaps the BBC (British(!) Broadcasting) misuses the term?

No worse than using "American" to mean "Unitedstatesian", is it? In linguistic matters, common usage is correct by default. --Brion VIBBER

Often this is the case, which suggests to me that the redirect to "Great Britain" is incorrect. "Britain" was an old term for Great Britain and Britany which got reused for the new combined realm that became the UK. I.e., the association to the UK is now the strongest usage. So I think the previous versions of Britain and British should be reverted and the Britain article improved as required (don't remove the stuff about Ireland, which became part of the "British Empire", but improve as required).

It's not a good idea to confuse an article on Great Britain, which is a well-defined concept of an island, with stuff about "Britain" which is used in various ways.

--

I think rather than re-direct all of "Britan" to "Great Britan" we should do this to make it clear that "Britain" is often used ambiguously. So I'm putting some text back here - a sort of disambiguation page, with a bit of text expalaining why there's confusion. I've tried to keep it a history of the word "Britain" and leave out politics as as much as possible. That can go in the other articles.

I don't think there's any ultimate authority for what is the "correct" use of an English word - just common usage. (There are "official" country names, but that doesn't help in this case). But we can say, for instance, that certain usages can be offensive to some people. Andy G 16:50 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree. This page looks like a good explanation. I'm not sure about redirecting British here, though. That term seems to be used uncontroversially enough to mean "of the United Kingdom", rather than "of Britain". Or have I got that wrong...? -- Oliver P. 02:43 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't know what word you'd use to mean "of Britain" if not "British" - it certainly seems ambiguous to me (usually context will sort it out, of course). That said, I think it's fine that British redirects here since this article explains the various usages of both words (I suppose it's also fine if it's a disambig page and doesn't redirect here). --Camembert

Sorry, I just meant that "British" can mean something other than "of Britain"; a redirect would suggest that it only meant "of Britain". Yes, I know that's not what I said, but that's what I meant. I really shouldn't keep coming here at 02:something in the morning... But yes, I agree that the term is ambiguous. I reverted British back to an old disambiguation page last night. However, I suppose if this page makes clear that "British" doesn't necessarily mean "of Britain", then redirecting it might be all right. Then again, it might not, because someone seeing themselves being redirected to Britain might just think that it means "of Britain", and not bother reading far enough into the article to find out that it might not. -- Oliver P. 01:39 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Well, I think it's OK to keep British as a dismabiguation page, to be on the safe side. It doesn't do any harm, I don't think. --Camembert

--

Revert the following:

The word Britain is used to refer

to the island forming the largest part of the territory of Great Britain,
colloquially, to the political entity Great Britain (comprising England, Wales, and Scotland), and
least accurately of all, to the United Kingdom as a whole. Although common, the use of "Britain" in this sense is best avoided, especially in political contexts, since the terms Great Britain and the United Kingdom refer to different entities.

Surely if Great Britain is intended, the outlying islands are included - just as the Isle of Man includes the Calf of Man. For the single island alone, you'd probably say "mainland Britain". And the use of "Great Britain" in the inclusive way is hardly "colloquial", seeing as it's used in official contexts. Andy G 18:52, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Query! If King George II is establishing a colony in 1732, is it a "British" colony or an "English" colony? jengod 23:02, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

British. Morwen 23:04, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Muchas gracias, a Merikin jengod 23:09, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Olympics/Merge Article?

I'm not sure that the following is correct.

"Other terms also cause confusion. Great Britain is undisputedly the name of the large island, but is occasionally used to mean the UK, for instance in the modern Olympic Games. "

I believe that Great Britain ( meaning England, Wales and Scotland )competes as an entity in the Olympics and Ireland competes as an entity ( meaning Rebublic of Ireland and Northern Ireland ).

I'm not sure if there is a sporting event that the United Kingdom competes in.

Motown

You are incorrect. The Republic of Ireland competes in the Olympics as "Ireland". The United Kingdom competes as "GB", indicating Great Britain. As part of the nation of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland competes under the tag "GB". Although these terminologies are incorrect (for both "Ireland" and "GB"), this is simply how it is. In the case specifically of Northern Ireland however, a resident of NI can compete with the Republic of Ireland team if they so wish. Sometimes it depends on the governing body of the sport to which they belong. For example, some Judo clubs in Northern Ireland belong to the IJF (Irish [Republic] Judo Federation), and some to the NIJF (Northern Ireland Judo Federation) which is affiliated to the British Judo Federation. Reference to Northern Ireland and its inclusion in the national Olympic Games GB team is mentioned in the official website. --Mal 08:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that `"GB" indicat[es] Great Britain'. GB is the country code (or abbreviation) for the United Kingdom according to Iso 3166-1 and several other standards (e.g.: car number plates). It is therefore more commonly used to refer to the UK than as an abbreviation for Great Britain.

The US-led Iso committee did not use UK for this purpose on the IMO irrelevant grounds that the letters of UK stand for a non-geographical/generic term (which of course doesn't apply to their decision to use US for the USA). Of course many country codes don't even stand for anything.

--Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley _talk _contrib 20:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this page should be merged with Great Britain or the other various topics mentioned, there is a little information here, but not deserving of its own article.

I think the two articles should be merged also. 'Britain' and 'Great Britian' refer to exactly the same thing in a geographical sense. The use of the different terms to (incorrectly) describe the country United Kingdom can easily be explained.

However, the word "British" refers directly to nationality. I will be redirecting the entry for "British" to the article on British Citizen. --Mal 08:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose any merger (not the British/British Citizen one). It is NOT INCORRECT to call the United Kingdom 'Britain'. Brtiain and Great Britain are distinct entities and should be kept as independent articles. This article could possibly direct to British Isles (terminology) but I don't really see the need to. Robdurbar 10:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, thinking about it, I question the British/British Citizen one. The content of 'British' was merged into and is now contained in this article. Either that conent should be moved or British redirect to this page Robdurbar 10:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it is incorrect to call the United Kingdom "Britain". Britain is an island. The UK is a country which comprises of more than just that island. "Britain" is incorrect terminology, however, it is used colloquially to refer to the country.

I redirected article 'British' to reflect its meaning as being that of a national description. It has now been redirected to 'British nationality law'. --Mal 14:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just wonder whether that British nationality law page is a bit complex for most uses of British that people want here. I really don't think that Britain is 'incorrect' for the UK. Britain can mean BOTH Great Britain and the UK. Inaccurate or potentially misleading, perhaps, but not incorrect. America for the USA is inaccurate or potentially misleading, but not really incorrect. Robdurbar 17:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, what you think is not of importance in an encyclopedia. Whatever the misuses of the words or phrases are, an encyclopedia should inform readers of the correct information, and then go on to supply the alternative uses, whether they be "accurate" or incorrect.

With regard to what is "inaccurate", it is indeed inaccurate to describe the United Kingdom as "Britain", as "Great Britain", as "England", or to describe England as "Britain" etc etc. It is also misleading to perpetrate incorrect usage. I have personally come across many foreigners who are completely confused by the concepts - concepts that are really very simple. For example, someone telling me (I am a British citizen and a resident of the UK) that I was wrong and that the UK is England and vice versa. I think I may even have seen a similar suggestion in talk pages here too.

But the use of the word British and the use of the word Britain (or the phrase Great Britain) are two entirely different concepts. --Mal 19:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But this isnt especially what I think. Look at the sources on the page - this is as used by the government and the BBC, not just your 'average man in the street'. Whilst defining terms technically, Wikipedia also has to reflect offical useage, even wherfe it may be wrong. Note that I use the term inaccurate to mean soemthing different to incorrect. The British Isles terminology page is clearly linked at the top of this article for people who are confused. But that does not change the undisputable fact that Britain means UK and that 'British' should direct here, to an article that expalins clearly its uses. Robdurbar 00:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nor does it change the undisputable fact that the misuse of the terminology in incorrect - despite which public bodies (mis)use them. This particular discussion is slightly irrelevant though I think, because I still maintain that the article 'British' should refer to a previously-written article on nationality.

Although the article I have redirected this to explains, very clearly, the uses of the word British, it does not appear to include any reference to the commonly misused terminologies. Perhaps, as a compromise, we should put a note at the top of the British nationality law article which either briefly explains it, or points to an article that does. --Mal 01:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Focus

It seems to me we have too many overlapping articles on Britain etc. I am trying to make sense of these. In keeping with the consensus reached above, I would like to focus this page more specifically on the WORD Britain. Therefore I have added more etymology of this word, including Brittany since it is one etymological complex, and deleted some points on distinctions with other terms (Anglo etc) which are better discussed at British Isles (terminology). --Doric Loon 09:54, 2 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note about the Olympics, the team which competes is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK's the IOC country code is GBR (technically our TLD should be .gb, but in a break from the rules we use .uk. The "United Kingdom" is not used, I think, in any International sporting event, the UK Nations usually compete individually, for example the Commonwealth Games and the World Cup. It should be noted that some Northern Irish athletes choose to compete for the Republic of Ireland, See 2004 Olympics for more. Keith 16:10, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Word derivation The statement that the fact that the modern Welsh name for Britain is Prydain supports the theory referred to is nonsense, of course; although this would be true if the word was present in ancient Welsh.

"Prydain" is recorded as having been used in Welsh c. 1100. Rhion 10:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Brutus of Troy

I assume, from reading this section of the article, that the etymology based on Brutus of Troy is now utterly discredited? If so, this should be stated explicitly. Robertbyrne 16:10, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These eponymous etymologies of nations were discredited 400 years ago at least, though as late as the 18th century Louis XIV had a historian executed for doubting the derivation of France from Francus, I seem to remember. This is typical mediaeval etymology, but interesting as historical trivia, and does belong in the article for that reason. --Doric Loon 23:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cornubia

Mercator produced CORNWALL & WALES ("Cornewallia & Wallia") in 1564:[1] [2]

Sebastian Munster produced maps depicting Cornwall as a distinct region of Britain in 1538, 1540, and 1550. [3]

George Lily produced a map showing Cornubia in 1556.

Girolamo Ruscelli did the same in 1561 portraying Cornubia alongside Anglia, Wallia and Scotia.

Johannes Honter followed this trend in 1561.

Humphrey Lhuyd and Abraham Ortelius produced Angliae Regni Florentissimi Nova Descripto in 1573, this showed Cornwall and Wales as distinct regions of England, however Cornwall was not portrayed as an English county. This map was re used in 1595 at about the same time that Norden produced the map of the Duchy (not county) of Cornwall.

From about 1600 things change the Mare Brittanica and the Celtic sea become the English Channel and Bristol/St Georges Channel respectively. At this time Cornwall also seems to become an English county. Why, there is no record of an act of union or annexation of Cornwall?

Bretagne 44 16:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A merge to reduce the permutations of articles

There is a discussion about merging United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland into United Kingdom. If you would like to contribute, please do so at: Talk:United_Kingdom. Regards Bobblewik 13:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Isles of Elishah

The article describes the first recorded name for the British Isles as the "Isles of Elishah". The first time I saw this part of the article I did a google search for the term (actually at that point it said "Isles of Elishas") and the only references to it were either taken from copies of this article, or said that the term referred to the greek islands e.g http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd118.htm I deleted the reference to "Isles of Elishas" in this article.

The reference was put back in place by Setanta747 as "Isles of Elishah" with a user comment:

(Historical evidence strongly suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles were the descendants of Javan (from his sons Elisha and Tarshish), and of Gomer and Magog.)

While I am pleased that Setanta747 spent time to explain his views, this comment does not cite where this historical evidence can be found either online or in books, and describes the first inhabitants of Britain as being various Biblican characters for whom there is no other historical evidence.

I later added a "Citation Needed" but it was quickly removed by the same user... does anyone think this part of the article need to be looked at? kaid100

Firstly, I wouldn't place too much faith in a Google search to be honest. However, I have also performed a Google search which confirms the Isles of Elishah as referring to the British Isles. You should have looked harder. --Mal 04:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello? "I wouldn't place too much faith in a Google search", yet you're using Google to justify your insertion of this? Hrm. Alphax ^τεχ 07:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could you link the pages you've found that refer to the Isles of Elishah as Britain? The only ones I have found are copies of the Wikipedia page. These pages refer to them as the Greek Islands: http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeeze27.htm http://phoenicia.org/ships.html http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engarabia.html http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/history/phoenicia/part-1chapter10.html kaid100

I used Google in response to your use of it.. hullo? --Mal 14:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Setanta747, can you source it please. I also stumbled upon Greece on [4]. --dcabrilo 07:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Try Google. --Mal 14:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is absolutely too much. "Try Google" is not a useful response to people who are asking for a source for a statement. We have all tried Google. We have all found Ez 27:7 and this mention of "the isles of Elishah". We all seem to have found the same "believed to refer to Greece" glosses. What no-one has yet found is a link between any of this and attested references to "Britain". WP:RS and WP:V are fairly clear on what constitutes a reasonable cite. "Try Google" is not one. This purported factoid should be removed from the article (and certainly from a section called "attested") until we have something more substantial than vague assertions of historical evidence in edit summaries. Telsa (talk) 15:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've 'hidden' this sentence for now using the <!-- thing, with a note that it is currently being contested here. Robdurbar 15:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It refers to the British Isles - not to Britain. I am re-adding the fact(oid). --Mal 07:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is entitled "Britain". And the list is entitled "Earliest attested references". I think it's fair to take that as "references to Britain". I take it the book you added in a cite tag is your reference? What exactly does it claim? It's out of print and the reviews on the web are more interested in its claims about Cruthin being the original inhabitants of Ireland than in the idea that the Bible mentions any part of these islands. I only ended up with this article on my watchlist after correcting a link somewhere, so this is not a topic I have strong opinions on (beyond finding it unlikely that Ezekiel was referring to Britain). But I do have strong opinions on Wikipedia sources and quoting them: so what exactly does this book claim? And is the author someone in a position to demonstrate that isles of Elishah refers to the British Isles, rather than to parts of Greece? Finally, arbitrarily restoring this claim to view every time you edit the page is a bit unilateral. If there is any consensus on this talk page, it is that this information is at best dubious. So why do you keep reinserting it? Please, explain a bit more on the talk page. Telsa (talk) 12:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of the title article and of the section heading. The last entry in the list also refers to the British Isles, and the history of that term is intrinsically linked to the name Great Britain. I think it's fair to take that as references to the British Isles.

The book I added is a reference. The author is knowledgable about the history of both the British Isles and Christianity. I'm not particularly concerned with the reviews the book got on some website. --Mal 15:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this discussion, and the Isles of Elishah reference, would be better placed in the British Isles article. However, I still think the entire claim is highly dubious, and a quote from the book would be welcome (under fair use of copyright) either on a talk page or in the article itself. kaid100

I added the following clarification to the inclusion of the term, which was then reverted without explanation. I think that if it is included, we should note that this is far from a certain reference and clearly disputed. I felt that this compromised between including it but also noting its questionable status. My version read:

'Ezekiel chapter 27 in the Bible (dated to c.500 BC) refers to the Isles of Elishah which some claim to be a refernce to the British Isles and Brtiain. This is because the Iseles of Elishah, like Britain, were at the time known for their production of a blue dye. This references is contested, however, with many claiming that it refers to islands in Greece [5].'

However, if we are contesting this version, perhaps we should be getting sources for all of these claims? Robdurbar 15:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I note that Setanta747 has removed the compromise version and replaced it with his own. I have decided to take the liberty of removing the Isles of Elishah completely. My reasons are as follows:

No webpage mentions any connection between Isles of Elishah, except this page and copies of it.

No Usenet article suggests a connection, and most wild theories- whether true or false- end up there at some point.

My copies of Mythology of British Isles by Geoffrey Ashe, Bulfinch's Mythology and the slightly lower-brow Mythology For Dummies make no reference to the Isles of Elishah

Many webpages suggest the Greek Islands are a possibility for the Isles of Elishah

The webpage linked in the article does not mention the Isles of Elishah, only a person named Elisha

As far as I can tell only one person has ever suggested a connection between the Isles of Elishah and Britain

By the user's own admission this is a reference to the British Isles, not Britain, and so I would argue it is more suited to the page on the British Isles

If any user should put the Isles of Elishah back on the main page without consensus here, I think we should consider going to arbitration. kaid100 18:09, 17 April 2006 (BST)

I agree with almost of Kaid's points. However, if Mal aka User:Setanta747 does not accept this suggestion that the thing be removed pending a quote (not just a book title), then I am not sure that arbitration is necessarily the immediate step from here. There is Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography first. Or we can ask the regulars on some of the related pages: British Isles (terminology) springs to mind. But before anything like that, can I ask Setanta747 again for a nice quote from the book so that we are all sure what we are discussing? We seem to have moved from "The Bible mentions Britain" to "the Bible mentions the British Isles" to "A book about Irish Picts supports this" with no explanation of which of the first two "this" is. We really do need a quote and some context from that book. (Well, I think so, anyway. :)) Telsa (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're right Telsa, I may have been a bit hasty to suggest arbitration. More viewpoints would help. Kaid100 20:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have now placed a notice in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. Thanks for the suggestion Telsa :) Kaid100 20:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm responding to the RfC. In my opinion, there is no way this claim can go in without a reliable source (as is clear from WP:V). User:Setanta747 seems to being very vague about the source. If he or she can provide a direct quote from the book, and the book's reliability can be established then of course it can be included. But even the compromised version,at the moment, includes a (at present) unproven claim. (Incidentally, arbitration would've been rejected, see WP:DR for steps which must first be tried.)Trebor 11:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree wholeheartedly. Tony_{(blah blah blah)}^{(look what I can do!)} 18:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am taking the liberty of re-adding the reference to the origin of the Isles of Elishah. Reasons you cited Kaid:

"No webpage mentions any connection between Isles of Elishah, except this page and copies of it."

.. I seem to recall adding a website reference as a source to my last edit (which I will be adding back once I have finished editing this talk page)

"No Usenet article suggests a connection, and most wild theories- whether true or false- end up there at some point."

.. they may do. However, is usenet any more or less authoritive than Wikipedia itself?

"My copies of Mythology of British Isles by Geoffrey Ashe, Bulfinch's Mythology and the slightly lower-brow Mythology For Dummies make no reference to the Isles of Elishah"

.. and yet copies of books I have read have mentioned it.

"Many webpages suggest the Greek Islands are a possibility for the Isles of Elishah"

.. and also Cyprus specifically, and other locations.

"The webpage linked in the article does not mention the Isles of Elishah, only a person named Elisha"

.. yes, and this is later mentioned in the Bible.

"As far as I can tell only one person has ever suggested a connection between the Isles of Elishah and Britain"

.. then I'm afraid you can't 'tell'.

"By the user's own admission this is a reference to the British Isles, not Britain, and so I would argue it is more suited to the page on the British Isles"

.. as I have explained - the origin of the word Britain is intrinsically link with the origin of the British Isles name. Also, the final reference in the relevant section mentions the British Isles (1550).

Tesla: A few points...

"if Mal aka User:Setanta747 does not accept this suggestion that the thing be removed pending a quote (not just a book title)"

.. had you noticed my latest edit, before it was removed (again), you'd have noticed that I included a website reference.

"can I ask Setanta747 again for a nice quote from the book so that we are all sure what we are discussing?"

.. when I find my copy of the book, I might consider typing in the paragraphs that the author mentions this in.

"We seem to have moved from "The Bible mentions Britain" to "the Bible mentions the British Isles" "

.. I am not aware of the first step "The Bible mentions Britain".

"to "A book about Irish Picts supports this" "

.. the book in question isn't a book about "Irish Picts".

Trebor: "User:Setanta747 seems to being very vague about the source." Since when has citing both a book and a website reference been "being very vage about the source"? I do not understand your logic here.

However, I do appreciate the logic of Robdurbar : Why are the other claims not being contested as strongly by some users as the one I added? --Mal 18:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this is something to do; however, you have also ignored all the comments from the rfc. I have moved the enitre section to the talk page for sourcing and sorting and will revert any attempt to add it untill all claims are proved. Actually, Im not gonna do that as my fone is now ringing. But i may do it later Robdurbar 18:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My comment on vagueness was related to the lack of any direct quotes from the book you cite. The author of the website article does not appear, at present, to hold any qualifications related to the matter. It is not the main focus of the article, nor does it cite what historical evidence there is. It gives the impression, to me at least, of him repeating something he read elsewhere - in my opinion, it does not qualify under WP:RS. Which means, pending authoritative quotes from the book, I don't think it should be included. I agree the others should be sourced, but are they disputed claims as your's is? Trebor 19:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know.. are they? --Mal 00:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid edit-warring, I will stop editing the article page until this issue is resolved. Point-by-point:

"No webpage mentions any connection between Isles of Elishah, except this page and copies of it."

.. I seem to recall adding a website reference as a source to my last edit (which I will be adding back once I have finished editing this talk page)

.... Assuming the website you mean is http://www.soundchristian.com/man/ , the "Isles of Elishah are not mentioned on that page. If there is another page you mean, I would be happy to look at it.

You should read the article more carefully.

I did reas it carefully. As I said before, I can find no memntion of the Isles of Elishah, only a person named Elisha. Saying that Elisha was an ancestor of the inhabitants of Britain, even if true, is not the same as saying that the British Isles have also been called the Isles of Elishah

"No Usenet article suggests a connection, and most wild theories- whether true or false- end up there at some point."

.. they may do. However, is usenet any more or less authoritive than Wikipedia itself?

.... Usenet is less authoritative than Wikipedia. That is why it is a good place to discover theories that people have had. Your theory doesn't appear there.

If (in your opinion) usenet is less authoritative than Wikipedia, then why bother even to mention it?

See Wikipedia:Search_engine_test

"My copies of Mythology of British Isles by Geoffrey Ashe, Bulfinch's Mythology and the slightly lower-brow Mythology For Dummies make no reference to the Isles of Elishah"

.. and yet copies of books I have read have mentioned it.

.... If you cited them, we could accept your claims more easily.

I did.

You cited one book. Which no users have access to, and no users can understand how this book would have a reference to Isles of Elishah in it given its subject matter. You have explained you have lost your own copy and are unable to quote from it.

"Many webpages suggest the Greek Islands are a possibility for the Isles of Elishah"

.. and also Cyprus specifically, and other locations

.... If many places are given as possibilities as the identity of "The Isles of Elishah" why do you keep putting it in this article under "Earliest ATTESTED References" (capitals mine)

Because it has been ATTESTED that this name referred to the British Isles.

Where has it been attested? Answering this question would pretty much solve the debate...

The webpage linked in the article does not mention the Isles of Elishah, only a person named Elisha"

.. yes, and this is later mentioned in the Bible.

.... I don't doubt that Elisha is mentioned in the Bible, I just don't see how this webpage relates to The Isles of Elishah or The British Isles

Because, if you read the article, it is suggested that the British people are the descendants of Elishah.. therefore people of Elishah.. and Isles of Elishah.

I refer you to Original_research#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position

"As far as I can tell only one person has ever suggested a connection between the Isles of Elishah and Britain"

.. then I'm afraid you can't 'tell'.

.... I can tell many things.

Apart from this.

I will avoid replying to this to prevent a rather silly war of words.

"By the user's own admission this is a reference to the British Isles, not Britain, and so I would argue it is more suited to the page on the British Isles"

.. as I have explained - the origin of the word Britain is intrinsically link with the origin of the British Isles name. Also, the final reference in the relevant section mentions the British Isles (1550).

.... Britain and British may be related, but no-one has suggested that the word "Elishah" has any connection with either word. An argument could be made for removing the 1550 reference, but not, I feel, for keeping the Isles of Elishah in.

Please tell me because I'm dying to know... is this whole thing a wind-up? Kaid100 21:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC) Updated Kaid100 08:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? --Mal 21:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Wind-up". Messing people about.

I agree that sources are good. I seem to spend a lot of my time on Wikipedia finding sources for things, or looking for the sources that other people claim. Over the last month, I have hunted for sources on everything from possible meanings of the word Lloegr to purported port-passing traditions tomental hospitals burned down by their escaped patients (guess what? Not only did it not have escaped patients, it turned out that it wasn't a mental hospital either). Consequently I know how long this takes. Someone has dropped "citeneeded" templates onto half a dozen articles on my watchlist today, so you'll excuse me if I don't spend much time sourcing this article. That said, I have added a little more from the OED (which, conveniently, is free to view online this week).

Now, this claim that the Bible mentions Britain is unusual and the identification of these Isles of Elishah with some part of Britain goes against the majorities of suggestions on the name in biblical dictionaries. The onus is on you to find evidence for it: evidence which satisfies WP:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The initial response from the RFC has been the same. You have now come up with one book and one web page to support your idea, and you still haven't given us an exact quote. In fact, you are starting to appear downright evasive on the matter. In turn, I start to suspect that this is a fringe theory. WP:Neutral point of view does not compel us to give equal time to fringe theories. It doesn't compel us to give any time to fringe theories.

About the web page you mentioned: http://www.soundchristian.com/man/ is a web page written from the point of view that the Bible is a reliable historical source and that all peoples on this earth descended from three people in the Old Testament. Wikipedia has a lot on this theory (and several variants of it) already: Japheth, Japhetic, Gomer (Bible), Josephus (who wrote a lot of this down), British Israelism, and more. If this is the point you wish to see covered by Wikipedia, fret not: it is all here. What this web page doesn't include is any reference to Isles of Elishah. There's "Isle of Britain", "Isles of the Gentiles", "Tin Isles", but nothing related to Elishah.

So we are left with your book, Ian Adamson's The Cruthin. Of which you say, in response to my mention of references to it on the web, "it's not about that", but you don't tell us what it is about; and further, "when I find my copy of the book, I might consider typing in the paragraphs that the author mentions this in." Might consider? How .. considerate. From your responses to others ("I did cite it" etc), I think you may be misunderstanding what citing is. We need not just a book title, but either an accurate summary of what he's saying or some quotes directly from it, which interested readers can then follow up for themselves. If the book was in either of my local libraries, I would have found it and skimmed it by now just to find out what on earth this is all about. But it isn't. So I must rely on someone with the book bothering to summarise -- or to type in quotes with their context from -- the thing. Since you disparage the comments about it on the web (which is a surprise to me, since one of the top hits is a glowing five-stars-out-of-five review), we obviously cannot rely on impressions gained from the web, and are reliant on someone telling us what this wretched book's about and what, precisely, it says. You say you might consider this? Do let us know when you have finished your deliberations.

Telsa (talk) 08:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of what "wind up" means. My question was directed to Kaid.

As for "still not giving us an exact quote", I have explained why. If you read the article on that webpage, you can see that it certainly infers that the islands may very well have been known as the Isles of Elishah.

Regarding Adamson's book - yes you're correct: it is considerate of me to find my book and type in the relevent text from it. Thank you for recognising that (your noted sarcasm aside). Suggesting that personal comments about the book is not necessarily any indication as to the accuracy of the content is one thing... "disparaging" the comments or reviews about the book is another, and not something that I remember having done.

Once again with the sarcasm too.. please do let us know when you've finished with your sarcastic attitude and are willing to consider a more appealing attitude. --Mal 10:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will of course answer any questions put to me, but I feel that "Excuse me?" is a statement with a question mark at the end rather than a question. As for the point about the Elisha webpage, I will again refer Setanta747 toOriginal_research#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position. Also, if Setanta747 is claiming that the name Elishah is the same as Elisha in Hebrew, a cite would be handy for that too. We seem to be going round in circles, and this page is getting perilously close to being a candidate for Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars User:kaid100 13:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I checked Manchester Central Library for a copy, no luck. Kaid100 15:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The expression "Excuse me?" is used to convey disbelief. I considered your remark to border on WP:NPA. Please be more tactful in your attitude.

Also, you may direct your comments to me personally you know - I allow you. All this talk of "Setanta747 should X" or "I refer Setanta747 to Y" is rather impersonal and slightly disrespectful in my opinion. However, its your call.

The OR link you gave me is irrelevant to our discussion.

If you think this article is (close to becoming) a candidate for Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars then I have two things to say to you: firstly, I have stopped reverting as I have accepted certain points regarding policy that have been made to me, and I had accepted User:Robdurbar's suggestion at the top of the section below. Secondly, I think your suggestion is petty and ignores the fact that I had acted In Good Faith when I initially added the information. At the end of the day, I suggest you concentrate rather more on enhancing the article than on trying to discredit another member Kaid. --Mal 20:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Earliest attested references

Right, it is the two earliest ones that are not adequately sourced and so i've hidden. I'm happy to include the Isles of Elishah with caveats that there are alternative explanations; we need sources for that and the following two, unless I'm mistaken: [NB: There were three sources needed at this time (Mal)]

Pretaniké; Pretanikai nesoi (Pretanic isles) - 325 BC
Britannia - 55 BC (Julius Caesar, Roman invasion of Britain)

Isles of Elishah - Ezekiel chapter 27 in the Bible (dated to c.500 BC) (added by Mal on 13:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Britain")

Robdurbar 22:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be happy with that Robdurbar. --Mal 00:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tempted to say that even with caveats the Isles of Elishah shouldn't be here. We can't find any evidence that they were ever connected to Britain before Setanta first added the reference on 20 March 2006. I'm even wondering if this is Setanta's own private theory No_original_research. No-one has found any sign that this theory has ever appeared anywhere but this Wikipedia page and its mirrors. Kaid100 22:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No - you're just tempted, full stop. When you say "we", who are you talking about? You may wonder if this is my own private theory.. right up until you actually ask me if it is. As for "no-one has ever found any sign that this reference has ever appeared anywhere" - I have just told you: you stand corrected. You should have said, "I can't find any sign that..." --Mal 00:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I will ask you straight, Is this your own private theory? If anyone has found a sign that this reference has appeared elsewhere, then they've yet to post it to this discussion group. I'm not sure that the book reference counts, as the person that referred to it can't find his copy and is unable to provide a quote from it.

Kaid100 08:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No - it is most definately not my private theory. You say that you're not sure that a book reference counts as the person who referred to it (that was me by the way), can't find his copy of it and is unable to provide a quote from it. Yet I have accepted many factoids in other articles when editors have cited books as sources - without having insisted on quotes from those books. I wonder why you cannot. --Mal 20:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a possible source for the first of those [6], although reliability could be an issue (do a search on the page to find the corresponding section). Trebor 22:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that the Caesar reference comes from his diaries.. I'm trying to search for it but I don't speak Latin :) My copy of "This Sceptered Isle" by Christopher Lee (book version) has an extract translated into English (Britannia has apparently been translated into Britain) on pages 1-2. I'll keep looking. Kaid100 22:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page has the same extract, also in English http://www.roman-britain.org/geography/geographia.htm Kaid100 22:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've found a reference that might be good enough to cite. WP's article on Caesar's diaries is here: Commentarii_de_Bello_Gallico That page links a site with both the English and Latin translations. Britain is found on this page: http://digilander.libero.it/jackdanielspl/Cesare/gallico/book_3.htm Its Latin equivalent is here: http://digilander.libero.it/jackdanielspl/Cesare/gallico/liber_3.htm The word for Britain there is Britannia. The inflected form Britanniam also appears. Kaid100 23:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone object to me putting Britannia back in? Kaid100 08:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I put Britannia back in an hour or two ago, pending any disagreements.Kaid100 19:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The Tribes of Britain" by David Miles (p107) mentions that Pytheas called it Pretannia in 320 BC. These websites tell the story a bit differently: http://www.answers.com/topic/pytheas http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.php?title=Pytheas Pytheas. They claim he called it Pretannike and a later writer rendered it Pretannia. Kaid100 15:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia itself already has an article on Pytheas saying that he was the first to mention the name Britannia. The article lists sources, but they are books so, unless someone has them, we still can't prove the part to do with Britannia. Trebor 18:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I should stress to avoid confusion that until I put Britannia back into the article two hours ago there were two [NB: there were three (Mal)] references awaiting verification:

Pretaniké; Pretanikai nesoi (Pretanic isles) - 325 BC
Britannia - 55 BC (Julius Caesar, Roman invasion of Britain)

Isles of Elishah - Ezekiel chapter 27 in the Bible (dated to c.500 BC)[7] [NB: third reference that had been awaiting verification (Mal)]

The Commentarii_de_Bello_Gallico posts I made were about Britannia, the post about Pytheas was about Pretannia/Pretaniké/Pretannike. Of course I will follow the consensus view on which of these references it is right to include.Kaid100 19:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've found a book reference for the Prettaniké here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0316726745/ref=sib_rdr_ex/202-0342445-0061420?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00O&j=0#reader-page It is a scan of "Great Tales from English History: Cheddar Man to the Peasants' Revolt" by Robert Lacey. Shall I put the reference back in? Note: you will have to turn to page 6. Kaid100 22:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a later reference: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0444504656/202-0342445-0061420?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=prettanike&p=S00V&avc=1&checkSum=HbeSZw74jXqGwNB%2F2UHNBRNMe8ASKZuc%2FIpzsYBIkuk%3D Kaid100 22:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think both those points qualify as referenced now, so I have no objection to putting them back in Trebor 22:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pretannike is now back in, this completes the citations we needed to find. (Note: this was before Mal added the Isles of Elishah to the list of references needing verification) Kaid100 23:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect. We still need to find a citation for Isles of Elishas. I have edited your comment above to reflect this fact.

It seems to me that you are not interested in verifying this, yet you are happy enough to help verify the other references. Coupled with the fact that you claim that "this complete the citations we need to find", this suggests to me that you are, for some inexplicable reason, being baised. I suggest you have a think about that. --Mal 20:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all I've changed back the edits made to my post. By all means add more comments, but please don't change mine.

I think you misunderstand me Mal, I was never rabidly against the idea of the "Isles of Elishas" referring to Britain or the British Isles, in fact I quite liked the idea when I first saw it, which is what led me to look into more details, leading me to find the 'Greek Islands' references. It was having my changes to the main page, like deleting the reference and later adding a 'citation needed', removed with no citations that led me to bring it to this discussion page, rather than because I was dead set against the idea.

What reference was deleted? --Mal 13:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As the debate has continued, I've spent some time looking for references to the "Isles of Elishah" online and in books, even heading to my local library to chase up the Ian Adamson reference. I have by comparison spent far less time on the Pretannike and Britannia references, and the fact that citations were found so quickly means that the "Isles of Elishah" reference does not compare favourably with them, especially since no pages or books were found that said that either Pretannike or Britannia might refer to any other place. It was Robdurbar that included a list of references needing citations without the Isles of Elishah, and that was the list I was going by. You can still see it at the top of this section.

I see from your User Contributions page that you are used to taking the side of unionism against nationalism in pages connected to the Northern Ireland debate, often leading to long edit wars. That is a debate with firmly entrenched views, where citations will often not change people minds. My views are not entrenched. I would be quite happy for Britain to have been mentioned in the Bible -I am British myself- but I would rather the information given on Wikipedia about my home country was accurate rather than inaccurate, and that is why I have been trying to remove the reference. If you could share with me why you want to keep this factoid in so much, I think it would help us understand each others views. However, I notice that the more recent posts here, including this one, have concentrated less on finding evidence for the reference, and more on examining people's motives. That would imply to me that the discussion on the reference itself is now over.

You have stated here that I am "used to taking the side of unionism against nationalism in pages connected to the Northern Ireland debate, often leading to long edit wars." This is untrue actually. The vast majority of my edits have been of a NPOV point of view - what I usually do is change POV statements to a more neutral standard and these, for the most part, are supported by consensus. Occassionally though, some POV-pushers do try to revert some of my edits back. These are quickly reverted by other users in most cases though. On occassion I have also changed unionist-POV edits to a more neutral phrasing too. Perhaps you haven't noticed that as much - most unionist-POV edits are quite quickly reverted by other people.

I have no idea why this is of any relevance to our discussion here however. --Mal 13:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Isles of Elishah - Ezekiel chapter 27 in the Bible (dated to c.500 BC) This reference has been moved to the discussion page awaiting citation. It may be here a while

Kaid100 23:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to thank you for your last comments - they are altogether less aggressive and confrontational than past comments on this discussion regarding the disputed reference (at least from my point of view). I added the information with the view that it was helpful and enhanced the article. However, do not think for one minute that I have 'given up' as it were. Also, do not think for one minute that this discussion, and the points people raised about this issue has fallen on deaf ears.

I have found the book at last and, having read the relevant passage from it, I'm even more in support of Robdurbar's suggestion at the top of this section. I will make an edit in the following day or so to reflect what was actually said in the book, along with a reference to the same website and a short explaination - probably in the same section, but with much better clarification. --Mal 13:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mal, since Isles of Elishah is a disputed point, please could you post the edit here first so other the members of the discussion can see the validity of the citation and agree on the edit? --RickiRich 20:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]