Talk:Michael Nugent

Sources

Note that Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article - one cited source seems to violate WP:BLP#Sources as it involves claims about third parties. The source about the Tallaght Two makes no mention of Michael Nugent at all - while it would be suitable for an article on the Tallaght Two, it isn't suitable for the Michael Nugent article. Autarch (talk) 13:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

New Consensus - edits on 25 December 2010

Could someone with access to the Irish Times archive and other references used please check this section to make sure it reflects the sources? The edits were made by an anonymous IP editor - maybe I'm being unfairly suspicious, but it's better to be safe than sorry. Autarch (talk) 19:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Sources cited in edits on 25 December 2010

The previous version said: “Sinn Fein regularly complained that New Consensus did not protest against violence by the security forces in Northern Ireland,”

The edited version changes “Sinn Fein regularly complained that...” to “It was regularly pointed out that...”

The cited source no 32 (Irish Times, 29 March 1993) says: “Sinn Fein complains regularly that New Consensus does not protest against violence perpetrated by members of the security forces in Northern Ireland, the same accusation which was made against the Peace People in the 1970s.”

The article also refers to source no 28 (Irish Times, 21 January 1992) which says: “Mr Nugent said that they also protested when “agents of the British and Irish States” acted outside the law.”

·

The edited version adds: “...and was minimally critical of Loyalist violence.”

The cited source no 32 (Irish Times, 29 March 1993) says: “The group has also held protests outside the offices of the Ulster Defence Association, the group responsible for the four killings in Castlerock, Co Derry and two other killings last week.”

The article also refers to the following sources:

Source no 33 (Irish Times, 3 April 1993) says: “Its first public event was a peace lobby outside the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis in the Mansion House in January, 1989. Some say that it was only in response to criticism of imbalance that it began picketing the Belfast offices of the UDA.”

Source no 30 (Irish Times, 24 June 1994) says: “A minute’s silence before Ireland’s World Cup match this afternoon has been called for in memory of the six people killed while watching last Saturday’s match in Loughisland, Co. Down... The chairman of New Consensus in the Republic, Mr Michael Nugent, said: “It is to let the people of Loughinisland know they are not alone in their grief. It is similar to the thousands of flowers that have been brought in recent years to the Ormeau Road, Warrington, Teebane and Greysteel and is part of an ongoing sequence of responses to these atrocities. The sympathy behind it is for everyone who has been killed, not just those last weekend.”

Source no 36 (Irish Times, 28 November 1996) is a libel case apology in which author Tim Pat Coogan and Harper Collins publishers “unreservedly accept that the founders of New Consensus, Michael Nugent, Anne Holliday and Michael Fitzpatrick... abhor and condemn paramilitary violence as a means of achieving political objectives.”

·

The edited version adds: “Many members of New Consensus were members of the Workers' Party of Ireland, which was opposed Republicanism and was described by some political commentators in Ireland such as Vincent Browne and Paddy Prendeville to accuse it of having an attitude to Northern Ireland that was close to Ulster unionism.”

The cited source no 34 (a quote from The Longest War by Kevin Kelley, 1988) is a quote about the Workers Party, of which Michael Nugent was not a member, and does not mention New Consensus, of which Michael Nugent was chairperson. The reference says to “see also” chapter 8 of Official Irish Republicanism by Sean Swan (a book which covers events from 1962 to 1972 and page 28 of Politics in the Republic of Ireland by John Coakley and Michael Gallagher (Amazon Look Inside shows that page 28 of this book is in Chapter 1, The Foundations of Statehood, which covers events up to 1922).

The article also refers to the following sources:

Source no 32 (Irish Times, 29 March 1993) says that New Consensus has “no direct affiliation to any political party. Members of the unionist parties, Alliance Party, SDLP, Democratic Left and Workers Party have joined in New Consensus protests... As members of Democratic Left and, previously, the Workers Party, have taken part in New Consensus demonstrations, Sinn Fein and its Newspaper, An Phoblacht/Republican News, has alleged that the group is a “front” for the parties. Both New Consensus and the parties deny this.”

Source no 31 (Irish Times, 4 February 1991) says: “The anti-Sinn Fein picket included the former Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald, Workers Party leader Prionsias de Rossa, and Alliance Party leader John Alderdice. Deputies Nora Owen (FG), Jim Mitchell (FG), Austin Currie (FG), Monica Barnes (FG), Pat McCartan (WP), Eric Byrne (WP), Larry McMahon (FG), Nuala Fennel (FG), and Roger Garland (Green party) joined with nationalist and unionist politicians from the North in the protest. The DUP was represented by Jim Walker and Ann Blake and UUP members Jim Brown and Christopher McGimpsey attended along with the former Lord Mayor of Belfast, Reg Empey. Ms Niamh Breathnach, from the Labour Party, and senators Shane Ross and David Norris also took part. The protest was also attended by the playwright Hugh leonard, Bert Ward from the English New Consensus group and the Families Against Intimidation (FAIT).”

Source no 36 (Irish Times, 28 November 1996) is a libel case apology in which author Tim Pat Coogan and Harper Collins publishers “accept that New Consensus is and always has been an independent, autonomous, non party political and non sectarian organisation dedicated to the achievement of stability in Northern Ireland via peaceful and democratic means.”

·

The previous version said: “In 1996, Nugent, Holliday and Fitzpatrick won a libel action against the Irish author Tim Pat Coogan, who had wrongly written that New Consensus had grown out of the Official IRA.”

The edited version deletes the word “wrongly” and changes “Official IRA” to “Workers Party of Ireland-linked Official IRA.”

The cited source no 36 (Irish Times, 28 November 1996) says: “Journalist and author Mr Tim Pat Coogan and Harper Collins Publishers Ltd have paid substantial damages to three founders of New Consensus, in settlement of libel actions, the High Court was told yesterday. An apology was also read out.” The apology reads: “In the latest edition of Tim Pat Coogan's book The IRA, reference is made to the peace group New Consensus as having grown out of the old Official IRA. The author and publishers accept that this allegation is completely untrue and entirely without foundation. They unreservedly accept that the founders of New Consensus, Michael Nugent, Anne Holliday and Michael Fitzpatrick have never had any connection with, or any sympathy for, the Official IRA, and that they abhor and condemn paramilitary violence as a means of achieving political objectives. The author and publishers accept that New Consensus is and always has been an independent, autonomous, non party political and non sectarian organisation dedicated to the achievement of stability in Northern Ireland via peaceful and democratic means. The author and publishers apologise unreservedly to Michael Nugent, Anne Holliday and Michael Fitzpatrick for the distress and embarrassment which the allegation had caused them. Signed: Tim Pat Coogan and Harper Collins Publishers Ltd." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.191.57 (talk) 12:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request

Please delete the following from the Writing section. The user who has added it has not provided any rational explanation as to why it is relevant (and it has a misplaced user sig): Under the exemption scheme for artists, introduced in 1969 by Charles Haughey, artists were exempt from paying income tax on their earnings. While biography or other books had to be declared to have 'artistic merit' by the Arts Council to benefit from the scheme, works of fiction were exempt from tax. In 2006 the threshold was capped at €250,000 and in 2011 lowered to €40,000. Fexro (talk) 19:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. – ukexpat (talk) 04:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

 Partly done: I removed the user signature from the article, but using the {{editprotected}} template to ask an uninvolved admin to insert/remove disputed text is not allowed. KrakatoaKatie 13:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Tax break stuff

I propose that the following material be removed from the article as it is irrelevant, unless the user insisting on its presence is using it to suggest that the subject was involved in something improper by availing himself of legal tax breaks: Under the exemption scheme for artists, introduced in 1969 by Charles Haughey, artists were exempt from paying income tax on their earnings. While biography or other books had to be declared to have 'artistic merit' by the Arts Council to benefit from the scheme, works of fiction were exempt from tax. In 2006 the threshold was capped at €250,000 and in 2011 lowered to €40,000.

 – ukexpat (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• Consensus seems to be to remove this. Fexro has claimed on his talk page that "the tax incentives existing in Ireland for writers was a well documented incentive for people to enter the field and has been cited in other instances as a reason why even foreign writers moved into the country" but has not explained the reason behind including this in a biography. Unless he thinks that these tax breaks are particularly important to the Michael Nugent story, or he proposes to add similar economic information to every biography on Wikipedia, I can't see why it should stay. If there are no objections I will remove the relevant passage once the page is unlocked. Funkyderek (talk) 11:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

I concur with previous requests to delete the irrelevant section on the tax exemption for writers in Ireland. Not only is it irrelevant, but it was added by a user with a personal vendetta against the subject. This is clear from some of the other personal, distasteful changes made recently by the same user on this subject which can be seen in the history section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Devilsad (talk • contribs) 16:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Media and talks

Jeff5102 has deleted references to television interviews and talks and debates because the sources are YouTube videos, and because being on a YouTube video is not notable. Here are the Wikipedia publishing guidelines I have used to amend this.

Notability is used to decide whether a topic can have its own article. Notability guidelines do not apply to article content. The guidelines for content are Verifiability, Neutral Point of View, No Original Research, and BLP guidelines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability)

You may not link to any copyright violation, such as a television show that has been uploaded illegally. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Video_links) The two television interviews are likely to be copyright violations so I have linked to the RTE archive pages of these two shows instead.

BLP articles can include information that the subjects have published about themselves. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons) It's okay to cite videos as references, as long as they meet the reliable source criteria, and it greatly improves verifiability. Self-published videos are often not acceptable sources, but may be used as sources of information about their creator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Videos_as_references)

The subject has self-published videos of some of his talks on his website, so I have linked to that source instead of linking directly to the videos on YouTube. I believe that it would also be okay to link directly to the videos on YouTube, but I am not doing this, because using this link serves the same purpose without causing any issues here. Ac1072 (talk) 12:21, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Thanks!Jeff5102 (talk) 06:59, 6 September 2012 (UTC)