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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cloudz679 (talk | contribs) at 13:15, 24 January 2014 (requesting 2nd opinion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Sydney Leroux/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cloudz679 (talk · contribs) 20:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I will review this article. C679 20:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Firstly we can look at the links. 1, 5, 7, 11 and 75 are reported as not functional. Also the UCLA profile in the external links section. Note that this is actually the same reference as ref 1. I don't think it is necessary to be in the external links if it is already in the article. C679 20:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • ref 1 removed from lead and its duplicate #7 link fixed
  • #5 loads fine
  • #11 loads fine
  • #75 loads fine

Hmlarson (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Referencing

Early life and education

There is a common theme that the text at the Wikipedia article as it currently appears does not faithfully reflect the references. I have gone through the first section and detailed all of the discrepancies. As well as addressing the matters below it would be productive to take a similar approach to the rest of the article.

  • References 10 and 15 are the same. Use the <Ref name=> tag to repeat the reference
  • "Her mother played third base for the Canadian national softball team.[2]" - citation doesn't support this; reword or get a different reference
  • "Coming from a family of baseball players, Sydney played baseball for Whalley Little League from 1994–2004.[3][4]" - neither citation mentions Whalley Little League
  • "Leroux was raised primarily by her mother after her parents split when her mother was three months pregnant with Sydney.[5][6]" - I can't see the video but ref 5 doesn't support the second part of the sentence
  • "During her freshman and sophomore year of high school, Leroux attended Johnston Heights Secondary School in Surrey where she was the leading scorer on the soccer team. Also a track and field athlete, she won Provincials in the 4 × 100 metres relay with her team.[7]" as mentioned above I couldn't get link 7 working. This needs to be fixed and to support this segment
  • "after scoring 12 goals in 4 games and a bronze at the under-16 national tournament in 2005.[8]" - citation doesn't support this; reword or get a different reference
  • "Leroux became the youngest player to play for the Vancouver Whitecaps at the age of 15 and won a championship with Team BC at the Canada Games in 2005." - needs a reference
  • "To pursue her goal, she moved to Scottsdale, Arizona at the age of 15 and attended Horizon High School during her junior and senior years while living with multiple host families.[10]" - the reference only supports living with multiple host families in Arizona and doesn't mention the high school name or city
  • "Despite having a challenging time adjusting to life without her family and friends, she helped lead Sereno Soccer Club to state titles in 2007 and 2008.[7][11]" - ref 11 only says she played for them, nothing about winning titles
  • " Of her move to the United States, she said, "It was not easy. It was probably one of the most difficult things I ever had to do, move away from everything that I knew and was comfortable with to something that I had no idea about. Not having any family around. Doing it on my own. As a 15-year-old, that's kind of hard. I had to grow up really fast [...] But I guess it's all worth it. Now I have a chance to prove myself, and that's what I enjoy, and that's why I did what I did."[12][13]" - ref 12 covers this, not sure how ref 13 supports it or if it's necessary
  • "Leroux played collegiate soccer for the UCLA Bruins from 2008 to 2011 under head coach Jillian Ellis. During her freshman season, she was a starting player on the squad for 18 of the 19 games in which she played. She was the sixth-highest scorer on the team with five goals and six assists for a total of 16 points on the season and was named to the Pac-10 All-Freshman Team.[7]" - is that all covered by a single reference?
  • "During her second year, she led UCLA in scoring with 48 points (23 goals, 2 assists) and was a semi-finalist for the Hermann Trophy. Her 23 goals ranked second in the Pac-10 Conference and tied with teammate Lauren Cheney for a new single-season record at UCLA. Leroux earned Soccer America MVP second team, Second-team All-Pac-10, and 2009 NCAA All-Tournament Team honors the same year." - needs a reference
* added ref Hmlarson (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the First Round of the NCAA Division I Women's Soccer Tournament, she set a new school record for most goals scored in a single match after scoring four during the team's 7–1 defeat of Boise State University.[14]" - reference says she tied the record, not set it
* edited Hmlarson (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a junior, Leroux ranked fifth in UCLA history for career points (91) as well as fourth in goals (41) and game-winning goals (15). She ranked third in the Pac-10 Conference for goals (13) and second in game-winning goals (6) earning her First-team Soccer America MVP, Third-team NSCAA All-American, First-team NSCAA All-Pacific Region, and First-team All-Pac-10 honors the same year.[7][15][16]" - it is not immediately obvious how these references support the text
  • "During her final year with the Bruins in 2011, she led the team in scoring for the third straight season with 16 goals and three assists for a total of 35 points.[7]" - reference 7 not working as mentioned above
* ref link fixed Hmlarson (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She was named First-team NSCAA All-American, Soccer America's MVP First Team,[20]" - ref 20 is redirecting and needs to be fixed
  • "She scored her first hat trick of the season (third in her collegiate career) in 11 minutes during a 6–1 win over the Arizona Sun Devils in October 2011.[21]" - reference only supports that it was her third career hattrick, not that it was the first of the season
  • "She finished her collegiate career ranked fourth in UCLA's record books for points (126), goals (57), and game-winning goals (23).[7][23]" - reference 23 only mentions points and game-winning goals (not goals)

More later. C679 22:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Playing career

  • "At the age of 15, Leroux played for the Vancouver Whitecaps during the 2005 W-League season becoming the youngest player to ever play for the team.[27]" - reference doesn't exactly say this, preferring the term "suit up" which doesn't equate to playing in my opinion
  • "She returned to the Whitecaps for the 2011 season.[28][29]"

http://ourgamemagazine.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/sydney-leroux-joins-vancouver-whitecaps/ doesn't appear to be a reliable source, the other one is adequate

  • "She ranked second in the league for goals scored with 11 finishing the regular season with 24 points in 11 appearances. After helping the Whitecaps advance to the W-League Championship Final Four with a goal during the team's 4–3 defeat of Santa Clarita Blue Heat in the Western Conference Final, Leroux was named to the All-Western Conference team. Post-season, she was named 2011 W-League Rookie of the Year.[30]" Incline citations are required here. the 4–3 defeat of Santa Clarita or the goal is not mentioned in the current reference
  • "Leroux was the number one pick by the Atlanta Beat in the 2012 WPS Draft, though the league folded before she could play for the team.[31][32][33]" better to use 31 and 32 after the comma
    moved. Hmlarson (talk) 20:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the summer of 2012, Leroux joined fellow U.S. national team players, Hope Solo, Alex Morgan, Stephanie Cox, and Megan Rapinoe on the Seattle Sounders Women in the W-League.[34]" the reference is from February, I can't make out the connection with the summer. Also none of the players mentioned aside from Hope Solo are in the reference
    The season runs through the summer. Added roster as ref; removed first (duplicate) ref Hmlarson (talk) 20:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sounders Women head coach, Michelle French, said of the signing, "Sydney is the consummate goal scorer with an incredible attacking attitude. She not only shows tireless effort on the offensive side of the ball, but she is very unique in that she prides herself on her defensive recovery and ability to win the ball back. She makes an impact no matter where she plays on the field."[35]" this rf is identical to 34, merge them
  • "Due to her national team commitments and preparation for the 2012 Summer Olympics, Leroux made only two regular season appearances for the club." - needs a ref
  • "With Leroux and her national teammates' presence on the team, the Sounders sold out nine of their ten home matches at Starfire Stadium (capacity: 4,500). The average attendance during league matches was four times higher than the second-most attended team in the league.[37]" This reference has no clear connection with the subject of the article, doesn't mention Leroux by name and would be better placed in the club article
  • The wording suggests that the stadium was sold out because of Leroux. This may or may not be true, but is not supported in the given reference. It should be deleted as original research, or a reference found. C679 20:52, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Edited and additional ref added.
  • "In 2013, as part of the NWSL Player Allocation, Leroux was one of three national team players along with Heather O'Reilly and Heather Mitts signed to the Boston Breakers for the inaugural season of the National Women's Soccer League (NWSL).[38] " - the reference says she was one of three American players signed to the Breakers, she was certainly not one of three national team players as for example Rhian Wilkinson also joined the team, yet is not included in the group of three
  • "Leroux scored the league's first ever hat trick during the Breakers' 4–1 win against the Chicago Red Stars on May 4 and was subsequently named NWSL Player of the Week.[40]" - the league's first ever hat trick and the NWSL player of the week are not mentioned. Reword or find a suitable reference
  • "A few days later on July 6, she scored a brace against the Portland Thorns FC resulting in a 2–0 win for the Breakers in front of 12,436 fans at Jeld-Wen Field.[42]" - brace is jargon and should be rewritten. Also the number of fans is an unusual inclusion, is this a factor in her achievement of scoring two goals?
  • "Leroux's 11 goals during the season tied for second with national teammate Abby Wambach of the Western New York Flash in goals scored, second only to Lauren Holiday of FC Kansas City with 12.[43]" - I can't see anything at the linked page apart from large white boxes

International

  • "By virtue of her parents' nationalities, Leroux was eligible to represent either Canada or the United States." - needs a ref
  • "At the age of 14, she was a member of Canada's team that played in the 2004 FIFA U-19 Women's World Cup in Thailand, where she was the youngest player in the tournament.[10]" this is reproduced word-for-word from the source. Reword
  • "She served as captain of Canada's U-15 team that traveled to Germany in 2005.[46]" - second half is not provided for at the reference
  • "Leroux represented the United States at the 2010 FIFA U-20 Women's World Cup and ended her under-20 career as the country's all-time leading scorer in Under-20 Women's World Cup play with 10 goals." - needs a ref
  • ref was after subsequent sentence. Modified. Hmlarson (talk)
  • "In 2011, she was named the 2011 U.S. Soccer Young Female Athlete of the Year, playing for both the senior and under-23 national teams.[49]" - the same source as 48, merge refs
  • "After representing the United States at the 2012 CONCACAF Women's Olympic Qualifying Tournament as a member of the United States senior national team, Leroux became a permanent U.S. player according to FIFA guidelines.[50][51][52]" - none of these references supports the wording here
  • "Leroux's performance tied a record for goals scored in a single match by one player in a CONCACAF Olympic Qualifying Tournament and tied the single-game record for the national team, tying teammate Amy Rodriguez, who had equaled and set the records (respectively) just two days prior in a 14–0 victory over the Dominican Republic.[10][54]" - unsure of the last part, per references it would be sufficient to put "who had scored five goals just two days prior, etc."
  • "In 2012, Leroux set a new team scoring record as a reserve on the team with 14 goals scored off the bench in one year. The previous record of nine goals was set by Debbie Keller in 1998.[55]" - reference says 12 and not 14, doesn't mention the previous record holder or total of goals
  • "During the 2012 Algarve Cup, Leroux scored the team's fifth goal in the 91st minute of the U.S.' first group stage match against Denmark, in which the U.S. won 5–0." - needs a ref
  • "After the game, she stated via Twitter, "When you chant racial slurs, taunt me and talk about my family don't be mad when I shush you and show pride in what I represent. .america." The U.S. Soccer Federation announced that U.S. Soccer said Leroux had "endured abuse both verbally and in social media" since switching to the U.S. national soccer team in 2008, however Leroux later clarified that no such incidents took place at BMO field. "My tweet from this morning wasn't in response to anything from yesterday's match at BMO Field," the statement read. "In fact, the atmosphere at the stadium was a positive step forward for women's soccer. Unfortunately, the type of abuse I have received in the past and via social media for my decision to play for the United States is a step backwards. That is what prompted my response in the heat of the moment."[65]" - all quotes need inline citations
  • "The controversy made headlines around the world." - reference or remove
  • "Her nickname is "Syd the Kid".[69]" - is that really her nickname or just something made up by USSF?
  • "Leroux has appeared in several advertisements and promotional pieces for Nike.[72][73]" I don't think that linking the advertisement itself is suitable here
  • "Leroux was the focus of an ESPN feature entitled Living Her Dream which profiled her evolution as an international soccer player.[74]" - problem with the url not working

This point marks the end of the referencing criteria. More later. C679 13:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

Lead
  • Rae is unreferenced as a middle name.
  • "She played collegiate soccer for the UCLA Bruins and previously played at the semi-professional level for the Vancouver Whitecaps. " - remove "previously", this introduces ambiguity.
  • Having read the article, it seems that her international career has been much more significant than her club career, so I think the lead should be altered to reflect this.
Early life
  • "She helped the team win the under-14 national championship in 2003 after scoring more than 11 goals in 4 games and a bronze at the under-16 national tournament in 2005.[9][10] " What can the reader understand by "more than 11 goals"? What is "a bronze"? Suggest this is split into two sentences and clarification provided.
  • "Leroux became the youngest player to play for the Vancouver Whitecaps at the age of 15 and won a championship with Team BC at the Canada Games in 2005.[10]" Are the organisations of Vancouver Whitecaps and Team BC one and the same? If not I think two sentences would be more understandable.
  • "Leroux has stated that at a very early age, she knew she wanted to play for the United States women's national soccer team.[4][11]" Leroux stated.
  • "During her freshman season, she was a starting player on the squad for 18 of the 19 games in which she played." A starting player is in the first XI, being in the squad is something different. Did she start for the team or was she merely on the squad for those 18 games? Clarification needed.
  • "During the First Round of the NCAA Division I Women's Soccer Tournament, she tied the school's record for most goals scored in a single match after scoring four during the team's 7–1 defeat of Boise State University.[18]" first round.
  • "During the Bruins' first game of the season" what season?
  • "Leroux scored the game-winning goal during the second round of the NCAA Tournament" which edition?
  • "helping the Bruins defeat the UCF Knights 2–1 and advance to the third round where they lost to eventual College Cup semi-finalists Stanford Cardinal.[20][21]" is College Cup part of the same tournament?
  • "Her eight game-winning goals ranked first in the Pac-10 Conference.[8]" better "She scored eight game-winning goals, more than any other player in the Pac-10 Conference."
  • I am puzzled as to why the UCLA Bruins sub-section is under "Early life and education", when in fact absolutely none of the information is about her education and it is all about her sports performances. It would seem that it is better suited to the "Playing career" section, unless more about her education can be added, or the "Early life and education" title can be amended.

More later. C679 13:47, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Playing career
  • There is evident duplication of the first sentence "At the age of 15, Leroux played for the Vancouver Whitecaps during the 2005 W-League season becoming the youngest player to ever play for the team." from the "early life" section "Leroux became the youngest player to play for the Vancouver Whitecaps at the age of 15 and won a championship with Team BC at the Canada Games in 2005.[10]", I would prefer it in the early life section only.
  • I've reworded slightly and see what you mean about repetition but I can't agree we remove it because I don't think it should be deficient from either section. It was a very notable event in her early life and her club career! Clavdia chauchat (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With the national teammates' presence on the team[37][38], the Sounders sold out nine of their ten home matches at Starfire Stadium (capacity: 4,500).[39] The average attendance during league matches was four times higher than the second-most attended team in the league.[39]" We discussed this in the referencing check previously, but re-reading now I would say that the team selling out nine home matches, when Leroux only played in two, is not appropriate and is bordering on coatrack material. Please feel free to use this in the club article but remove it from this one.
  • The issue, I think, is that the vast majority of women's soccer matches take place in front of the proverbial three men and a dog. So big crowds are relatively more notable than in men's soccer, where even teams of pitiful losers routinely sell out their grounds. I don't think it implies the big crowds were down to Leroux, either. "Correlation does not imply causation" and all that. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2013, as part of the NWSL Player Allocation, Leroux was one of three United States national team players along with Heather O'Reilly and Heather Mitts signed to the Boston Breakers for the inaugural season of the National Women's Soccer League (NWSL).[40]" Reword prose
  • reworded to: In January 2013, Heather O'Reilly, Heather Mitts and Leroux were the three United States national team players allocated to the Boston Breakers for the inaugural season of the National Women's Soccer League (NWSL). Clavdia chauchat (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She scored her first goal of the season in the 91st minute of the Breakers' season opener against the Washington Spirit tying the game 1–1 in stoppage time.[41]" comma before tying
  • "On July 3, she scored another equalizer against the Seattle Reign FC resulting in a 1–1 draw.[43] " comma before resulting
  • "A few days later on July 6, she scored two goals against the Portland Thorns FC resulting in a 2–0 win for the Breakers in front of 12,436 fans at Jeld-Wen Field.[44]" the Portland Thorns or Portland Thorns FC (without the). You ignored my point above regarding the number of fans, so I will ask again, the number of fans is an unusual inclusion, is this a factor in her achievement of scoring two goals?
  • "Leroux's 11 goals during the season tied for second with national teammate Abby Wambach of the Western New York Flash in goals scored, second only to Lauren Holiday of FC Kansas City with 12.[45] " awkward prose, reword
  • "The Breakers finished the 2013 season fifth in the league with an 8–6–8 record.[46]" what is an 8-6-8 record?
  • "On November 18, 2013, it was announced that Leroux was traded to the Seattle Reign FC for the 2014 NWSL season in exchange for two 2015 draft picks, Kristie Mewis, and Michelle Betos." would be or had been, but not "was". Also, are Mewis and Betos the 2015 draft picks, because that is what the wording currently implies.
  • "Of the signing, Reign FC head coach Laura Harvey said," prose

International

  • "At age 14, she was the youngest player to participate" she became
  • "At age 14, she was the youngest player to participate in the 2004 FIFA U-19 Women's World Cup in Thailand as a member of Canada's team.[10]" awkward phrasing, she was the youngest player in the tournament; mention Canada before the fact.
  • Why? The wording as-is serves to inform the reader she was the youngest player … as a member of Canada's team, when in fact she was the youngest player, with no qualifier. As a member of Canada's team could go at the beginning "As a member of Canada's team" or "Playing for Canada". C679 09:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She served as captain of Canada's U-15 team" - under-15 team to be consistent with the rest of the article.
  • "Leroux received clearance from FIFA to change associations to the United States in 2008" Despite what the reference says, she didn't "change associations", and this should be worded more clearly.
  • "and went on to help the under-20 national team win the 2008 FIFA U-20 Women's World Cup in Santiago, Chile after scoring in the first half of the final against North Korea." Make this a stand-alone sentence
  • "In 2011, she was named the 2011 U.S. Soccer Young Female Athlete of the Year, playing for both the senior and under-23 national teams." The reference says she was named in 2012.
Senior
  • "Leroux's performance tied a record for goals scored in a single match" the record
  • "Leroux's performance tied a record for goals scored in a single match by one player in a CONCACAF Olympic Qualifying Tournament and tied the single-game record for the national team,[55] tying teammate Amy Rodriguez who had tied the team record originally set by Abby Wambach in 2004,[56] just two days prior in a 14–0 victory over the Dominican Republic.[10]" over-running sentence
  • Now reads "Leroux's performance tied the record for goals scored in a single match by one player in a CONCACAF Olympic Qualifying Tournament and tied the single-game record for the national team,[56] tying teammate Amy Rodriguez who had tied the team record originally set by Abby Wambach in 2004,[57] just two days prior in a 14–0 victory over the Dominican Republic.[11]" (emphasis is mine). Prose needs to be improved. C679 09:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It looks like "From Algarve to the London Olympics, 2012" and "Algarve Cup, Controversy in Toronto, 2013" should be sub-sections of "U.S. senior national team" or simply merged into it
  • "During the squad's second group stage match" The squad doesn't play the match, the team does
  • "The U.S. would go on to win the tournament" went on
  • "after a 2–0 defeat of Germany in the final" after defeating Germany 2–0 in the final
  • "no such incidents took place at BMO field" Field
  • "During a friendly against Mexico in September 2013, Leroux scored a hat trick in nine minutes helping the U.S. win 7–0.[71][72]" comma before helping
Personal life
  • link chihuahua
  • does she have any other endorsements besides Nike?

That's the end of the prose review. More later. C679 14:31, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Other criteria

The review bit

I have made minor copyedits to the article. There are a couple of outstanding issues above. In addition I have the following comments, which should be addressed. The review follows.

  • LEAD: "After the WPS suspended operations before the 2012 season" reword
  • done.
  • EARLY LIFE: "Also a track and field athlete, she won Provincials in the 4 × 100 metres relay with her team.[9]" Provincials links to state-wide examinations, but it appears a different meaning is intended.
  • EARLY LIFE: "Leroux became the youngest player to play for the Vancouver Whitecaps of the W-League at the age of 15." needs a ref
  • ALGARVE CUP ""When you chant racial slurs, taunt me and talk about my family don't be mad when I shush you and show pride in what I represent. .america]."[70] " sic
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    the referencing and prose need to be finalised and the article must be neutral before I can pass it. On hold to allow time for improvements.
  • All criteria aside from the neutrality appears to be met. After the non-neutral section "With the national teammates' presence on the team,[38][39] the Sounders sold out nine of their ten home matches at the 4,500 capacity Starfire Stadium.[40] The average attendance during league matches was four times higher than the second-most attended team in the league.[40]" is removed, the article will be ready to pass. C679 16:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your review. I don't agree that these two sentences are non-neutral. The sources indicate that the US WNT players' signing with the Sounders Women resulted in a boost in attendance. Hmlarson (talk) 20:16, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting second opinion

  • Requesting second opinion – according to part 4 of the criteria, the article must be netural. At the page on neutrality, it is noted that "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." I feel that the sentences: "With the national teammates' presence on the team,[38][39] the Sounders sold out nine of their ten home matches at the 4,500 capacity Starfire Stadium.[40] The average attendance during league matches was four times higher than the second-most attended team in the league.[40]" is undue weight as it is not directly connected to the subject, but the nominator argues that this issue is due to my personal bias and needn't impede the GA process. I would appreciate another editor's opinion on this matter, which is the last thing standing between this article's nomination and the award of GA status. Thanks, C679 13:14, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a place for this passage as the second source (39) includes Leroux as being a reason for the high attendance by virtue of being one of the national team members. The passage could be re-worded to begin with something along the lines of "With Leroux and her fellow national team members..." to bring her directly into context.
However, the sentence about average attendance is almost a straight copy of the text in the source. That is far too closely paraphrased and invites questions about whether other aspects of the article are sufficiently reworded in the author's own voice. Also as an aside, there was a question above about what 8–6–8 means. I often use {{Win-loss record}} on the first use of such a record statement to help add context for those unfamiliar with the style. It may help here. Resolute 03:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your input. I've modified the Boston Breakers season record with the suggested template and copy edited the sentence about average attendance. Hmlarson (talk) 23:29, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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