Talk:Texarkana Moonlight Murders

The Phantom Slayer (2014)

I can't find any evidence of this movie existing, but it's listed under "Movies" along with The Town That Dreaded Sundown and its 2014 remake. It's not on IMDB nor do multiple searches for related terms come up with anything. If it isn't sourced or it's somebody's indie film that isn't notable in any capacity, then it should be deleted from this page. 24.85.113.197 (talk) 18:45, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

More work

I will work more on this article when Jim Presley's book comes out in November 2014, so look forward to that. JeremeK (talk) 02:39, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Article is not written in wiki style, too loose and informal. Definitely needs a clean-up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.14.3 (talk • contribs) 00:46, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Worked on that. JeremeK (talk) 05:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup

Article needs a cleanup... While very detailed, there are sections which are blank. Paris1127 (talk) 16:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Worked/Working on that. JeremeK (talk) 05:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, should merging with Phantom Killer be considered? Paris1127 (talk) 16:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I haven't completed the entry and have stopped working on it since my separation/divorce in July-Dec. 2010. I know it's been two years since I've worked on it. Since then I've gone to school and worked two jobs. I do plan on finishing this article. I'm gonna take some time next month to continue my hard work and research on this and try to write the most complete information on it that I can. I'm sorry for the long wait; even though I've gone through a divorce, I was also worn out from all the research and work I've already put into this; but I will continue to complete this article.

Now about the merge, I am also going to work on the other page exclusive to just the killer alone. I didn't create the Phantom Killer page, but I will rework it so these article won't be similar. This one focuses on the whole subject, while the other will focus on just the killer. Please compare Jason Voorhees and Friday the 13th as well as Freddy Krueger and A Nightmare on Elm Street.

Thanks for any understanding and patience. JeremeK (talk) 05:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. For one, Freddy Krueger and Jason Voorhees are fictional (thankfully). Secondly, Wikipedia has a trend of, if there are multiple killers involved, grouping the articles together: David and Catherine Birnie, Speed Freak Killers, etc. If only one killer is involved, the article about their crimes is filed under the killer's name: see Gary Leon Ridgway, Dennis Rader, Dennis Nilsen, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc. Even when the killer remains unidentified, there are not two separate articles for the killer him/herself and the killing spree (see Zodiac Killer, Long Island serial killer, Lisbon Ripper, Claremont serial murders, etc), with prime suspects given their own articles in special cases, such as when the prime suspect gets a lot of publicity (see Steven Hatfill). These articles need to be merged. Paris1127 (talk) 09:11, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Although Freddy and Jason are fiction, the Phantom Killer is "fiction" when it comes to The Town That Dreaded Sundown and the play that is based off of the events. Also the "multiple killers" that are grouped together are only because they carried out their violence together and as a group effort. The reason the serial killers are under their name is because those are real identified men who have been caught; but also because I don't think their murder sprees have a name to them such as The Texarkana Moonlight Murders; at least none to my knowledge.

The article for Phantom Killer will not be the same article as this one. It will go into more detail on suspects, the leading suspect, the one represented in the movie and the one in the play. It will not contain the same material as this article. If there's not enough information to make the Phantom Killer an article by itself then a merge will be considered. JeremeK (talk)

Support merge. As with the Zodiac Killer and other examples above, it makes sense to combine the articles on crimes and criminal. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The deleted "expletives"...

Was the description written that way when the person wrote the article? Because I doubt anyone who really cares about swearing will be reading an article about a serial killer. With the exception to the person who deleted it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antifreezed Haystack (talk • contribs) 10:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

This is JeremeK, starter of the page; yes, the "deleted expletive" is part of the newspaper article. 96.45.237.249 (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Texarkana Moonlight Murders/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 23:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll be glad to take this review. Initial comments to follow in the next 1-3 days. Thanks in advance for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

This article is packed with information and is clearly intensively researched; I really appreciate all your work on it. I do feel like this has some more areas where it needs work to fulfill the Good Article criteria, which I've noted below:

• All quotations need to be followed by an inline citation per criterion 2b. There are many here that don't.
• A second major issue is the level of detail in the article. At 67kb of readable prose, this is extremely long for a minor event. (No disrepect to the victims; I'm just talking on an encyclopedic scale.) To pick one section at random, we don't need the names of the men who found the saxophone, or a quotation of what they said to each other on finding it, or the titles of music found within the case; this discovery doesn't appear to need a full subsection at all. The lengthy descriptions of the investigators, big block quotations of minor press releases, and even the locations of their tombstones are again excessive detail.

At this length, the article becomes difficult to use for all but the most dedicated readers--those willing to spend an hour or more reading it, which isn't the typical Wikipedia user. This is inevitable for a sprawling topic like History of West Africa, but a topic this limited could make far better use of summary style (criterion 3b). Looking over what's here, I would suggest that this article be cut by as much as half.

• Sentences like " A 1945 Texarkana City Directory indicates that the residential development of Beverly stopped in about the 600 block of Richmond road, which means the attack occurred somewhere near Taylor street; contrary to the belief that it happened near the intersection of Richmond and Robison." sound very much like original research. (Also note that this sentence should have a comma rather than a semicolon, which generally requires a complete sentence on both sides).
• Bare URLs should be turned into fuller citations using a template like Template:Cite web.
• External links such as the Google Maps link at "to a Beverly residence at 805 Blanton street" should not be embedded with the article text but moved to the references or external links section.
• For such a lengthy article, it strangely omits information about the lead suspect and other theories about the murders; this is a main aspect that should be covered under criterion 3a. FWIW, I agree with the merge suggestion that the article on the unknown killer should be part of the article on the killings.
• The lead should better summarize the article's contents, and should present no new information (see WP:LEAD).

Since this one seems to require substantial further work, I'm not listing this as a Good Article at this time. I do wish you luck though and hope you'll find some of the above suggestions helpful. Thanks again for your efforts on these famous crimes! -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Review response

• I took care of the first bullet.
  
• I disagree with the second bullet. In my opinion, an "encyclopedia" includes comprehensive information on a topic. My goal is to make this article the most definitive account of the subject and get it to "Featured Article" status. The following article is very lengthy; it has reached "FA" status and it is only about a single song: Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)
  
• I took care of the third bullet's suggestion of the semicolon. As for the "original research", this was needed to be done to figure out where the exact location of the crime occurred.
  
• I haven't worked on the fourth bullet yet.
  
• I disagree with the fifth bullet. No one will understand what the link is for and I believe it works well within the text.
  
• As for the sixth bullet, I understand it is missing information. I'm still working on it. That is why I only nominated it for "Good Article" instead of "A" or "Featured". If I had added all this information, I would have nominated it for a higher rank; but I do believe so far, it has reached GA status.
  
• I worked on the last bullet.
  

Thanks for the compliments. I've worked very hard on all of this. JeremeK (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

And thank you again for your work! If you disagree with my review, I wouldn't be at all offended if you resubmit the article for a second opinion; GA reviewing is never an exact science. Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:26, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Title

Why did they change the title from The Phantom killer to this?--Paleface Jack (talk) 23:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I worked on this article independent of "Phantom Killer". The other article had facts wrong, was too short, and wasn't done very well. I didn't want to fix it and instead wanted to start the article Texarkana Moonlight Murders because that's what the article should be about: the crimes. The other article, "Phantom Killer" sounded like it should've been only about the killer. Eventually my article became comprehensive and the other article was merged with this one. It only made sense. JeremeK (talk) 02:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

New book on prime suspect

Apparently a book has recently been published that concludes that the original; prime suspect was indeed the criminal. The material added to the article here has several problems. I've already removed it twice, but the problems have not been addressed. I've tagged the latest addition for now but it really needs to be looked at. At a minimum the addition needs to be rewritten. Here are some problems I see:

• The book is not sourced. I have verified that it has been published and it's easy to ref it, so this is a minor issue.
• Does not seem neutral. Unsubstantiated WP:Peacock words such as "expert" (the author seems to have researched the book well, but does that make him an expert on the subject?), "conclusive evidence". "extensive research", etc.
• Possible bias on the part of the author. He is reportedly the nephew of the Bowie County Sheriff who was involved in the 1946 case.
• The book was just published this month so it's far too soon to treat this book as the definitive analysis of the case.
• "Recent media interviews conducted in Texarkana shows that a Board of Inquiry may be convened to close the case by stating that Youell Swinney was The Phantom Killer." Unsourced. Possible WP:synthesis
• "Former officer Glen Owens stated in a television interview on Little Rock, Arkansas station KLRT on October 30, 2014 that enough evidence is available to close the case by the Board of Inquiry process." Unsourced. Even if sourced this would seem to be nothing but conjecture on the part of the interviewee. If this is all the evidence for the previous line then both of these lines should go.

It's probably worth mentioning the book, and any new material covered in the book, but I don't think the current approach is right. Don't put this up as the definitive solution to a many-decades-old case. A historian looked at the case, accessed new material, and concluded that the person already identified as the prime suspect did it. Meters (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

This is Jereme Kennington (starter and primary author to this article). I've fixed this problem. I'm aware of this new book and have read it. The author states his beliefs and opinions on the evidence that's been around since 1946. He thinks the evidence concludes the case and that it is "cracked". I disagree. I rewrote the opinionated paragraph and put it in a more appropriate location in a neutral point of view. Thanks, Meters. JeremeK (talk) 01:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Note that I have temporarily protected the page from all edits so that this dispute can be worked out. I've left a note for the absent party to respond here. If consensus is formed before the protection expires, let me know or make a request at WP:RFPP and the protection can be removed. Kuru (talk) 02:53, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Prohibiting the public's right to know

It is against the public's right to remove content showing that there are people who intend to pursue a Board of Inquiry regarding the Phantom Killer. Your article does nothing to properly inform people on what is going on. Just because you do not believe that a BOI is warranted does not make the issue go away. A Criminal Profiler and retired law enforcement office Glen Owens in addition to a retired local Texas DPS officer, a justice of the peace, and several others are in discussion about carrying out a BOI. Your efforts deny the public to know that a BOI is likely.

Dr. Presley is a documented expert whether you like it or not. Several online reviews have so stated. He is a Professor of History, a proven journalist, and well known for his objectivity in the issues he researches. His book is heavily referenced and has a three page selected bibliography containing a vast array of expert. This is in addition to the people, law enforcement experts, and articles quoted within the context of the book. The public has a right to know. It is important that the public see the published information left intact. If you want to discuss some wording, I'm certainly all ears. But just deleting facts that do not make your vision doesn't make them go away. Clent225 (talk) 03:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia only summarizes reliable sources in a neutral fashion. It does not take one source and say "this is true, everything else is wrong," it take a variety of reliable sources and gives each view due weight. Wikipedia is not a platform to "spread the truth" or "right great wrongs".

All the blue links in my post are to relevant policies and guidelines on those topics. Read them. Your addition to the article used non-neutral language and read like an advertisement, which is why it was removed. If you bothered to read the above posts, you'd see that material from the book has been worked into the article by JeremeK. Do you work for the publisher of the book? We have a right to know. Are you in some way making money off the book? We have a right to know. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Long time follower of the story. Live in Texarkana.

I have had an interest in the Phantom Killer ever since I heard the story of a neighborhood boy shooting my grandmother's front door with his BB gun. It was only a shadow from a tree that the boy saw, but it cost a new window for the door.

I am friends with several past and present law enforcement officers of Bowie and Miller Counties. I am directly related to the late Sheriff Rachael, a Bowie County Sheriff that served after Sheriff Presley. I've heard about this story for years.

That I'm new to Wikipedia rules and methods should not be strange. For years I've been a consumer of Wikipedia, this is my first contribution. I just joined the user group as of yesterday.

I am hearing Law Enforcement and people in law in Texas and Arkansas discuss closing this case by way of Board of Inquiry. It could even be accomplished in the setting of a Justice of the Peace setting. The BOI has been reported in the Texarkana Gazette and online from Little Rock TV Station KLRT. I added the video link as a reference in my post.

The material worked into the article by JeremeK leaves much information unspoken. The new book by Dr. Presley contradicts some of JeremeK assertions, and I don't think that one paragraph representing a well research book is too extravagant. I believe that some of the assertions of JeremeK are misleading to the people that read this article.

I have no financial interest in this or any other book, nor am I an author who intends to write any book. I'm just trying to get the facts accurately represented in this forum.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Clent225 (talk • contribs)

As I said earlier, Wikipedia goes with due weight. Let's say you have 4 books that say "A," 2 books that say "B," and only 1 book that says "C." An article with due weight would say "AAAABBC." It would be creating false balance (not allowed) to have the article say "ABC," and undue weight (definitely not allowed) to have the article say "ABCCCC."

This not only includes article coverage, but presentation. If 2 sources says "A, not B," and only 1 source says "B, not A," the article will give B less certainty no matter how sure the author of the B source was. In some drastic cases (say, twenty source that say "A, not B" for each "B" source), we'll omit "B" entirely.

In other words, a single source does not change the whole article. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The context of "The Phantom Killer" is not single sourced

A reading of "The Phantom Killer" shows multiple sources much like "All the President's Men" showed multiple sources. The quotes come from actual law enforcement reports not listed by JeremeK. This is an indictment on the research of JeremeK. There is a reporting in this article of a teenage nicknamed "Doodie," and his sad tale is reported by JeremeK about as much as Swinney was, even though law enforcement dismissed "Doodie" as the murderer quickly. I have read some of the referenced articles included in "The Phantom Killer." There are police reports, not even alluded to by JeremeK, that point to Swinney. http://www.fox16.com/story/d/story/web-extra-extented-interview-with-glen-owens-crimi/55713/3QA-qQvQFEOy61joNjQnvg Swinney's wife's statements would now be allowed in a Board of Inquiry Hearing. It is a different standard of proof. Circumstantial evidence is admissible in BOI. This case could be closed in the not too distant future. All information that I have tried to be included in this article. http://www.fox16.com/story/d/story/web-extra-extented-interview-with-glen-owens-crimi/55713/3QA-qQvQFEOy61joNjQnvg JeremeK wants to suppress that information. Maybe it should be considered what his motivations are, who is he helping.Clent225 (talk) 04:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)