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    User:ApprenticeFan (me) about edits in The Amazing Race

    Appears to be a content dispute and does not require admin intervention. I see an attempt at Talk:The_Amazing_Race_27#What.27s_up_with_ApprenticeFan.3F to discuss this on the talk page, but it seems like this avenue was not exhausted. Recommend users continue discussion there and try other dispute resolution avenues such as WP:3O. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I was so embarrassed on my contributing edits in The Amazing Race (season number) articles. Me and Masem (talk · contribs) are a frequent contributors for the show franchise that we did make shortening summary articles. I made my first edit back in April 2005 in The Amazing Race 7 and became very common ever since. The big problem is I did not give any comments without any explanations of how I cleaned up sentences to meet with the standards of WP:PLOT policy.

    Articles have been reported:

    My edits on those two articles didn't do a disruptive editing that is having a common on a good Wiki editor. At first, ESAD-Hooker (talk · contribs) became a new "Ryulong" of the Wikipedia-edit race for race/leg summary. Well, I didn't vandalize all of The Amazing Race pages since my account's creation in 2005 and this did not have previous blocks from editing. I may going to be a proper Wiki editor that meets the right standards to be understood. ApprenticeFan work 04:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Soooooo..... this isn't anything that needs admin intervention and should therefore be closed as such ? ....., Your edits look fine so I don't get what the problem is ? .... –Davey2010Talk 04:31, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Davey2010: These both articles were reverted by Sportsfan 1234, the problems are less awkward grammar, cohesion and tone. That would make sure to prove better sentences. ApprenticeFan work 04:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh right sorry, So have you tried talking to the editors on the respective talkpages?, BTW you need to provide diffs of the issue aswell otherwise your complaint won't get far, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 04:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. I checked one on The Amazing Race 27 talk page and there's an analysis of these reports were made by ESAD-Hooker itself, Masem, and etc. ApprenticeFan work 07:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This looks to be largely a content dispute. WP:DRN may be a better place to discuss this. Blackmane (talk) 13:31, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Back again. I did make a file at WP:DRN and this was a premature case. ApprenticeFan work 02:41, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    My observation was, on 14 February 2016‎, in less than 1 hour, ApprenticeFan removed over 3,000 bytes. I don't think an article can be pruned with detail in that amount of time. The results of that pruning substantiates my observation ESAD-Hooker (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Your post at DRN was removed because you hadn't fufilled the base requirements: Where was there previous discussion on the Article Talk Page or User Pages? Based on the fact that this is a perenial problem, perhaps opening an RFC to establish consensus at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/The Amazing Race task force (or WikiProject Television in the context of many reality TV series) would be a good idea. Hasteur (talk) 22:55, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, there is a discussion on Talk:The Amazing Race 25#New TAR Clue Format and Summaries which the now-banned Ryulong made an idea to clean up the race summary, merging with Route Info, Detour, Roadblock or Route Info, Roadblock, Detour through a leg summary in order. ApprenticeFan work 06:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    A discussion from 2014 does not constitute The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. and as such the request was dismissed. Please stop slinging mud regarding banned users due to the fact that it only undermines your position. Hasteur (talk) 12:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Apparently, I added Sportsfan 1234 in the list above, and look at those edits that I made with shortened sentences:

    Before
    Leg 1 (United States → Brazil)
    The Detour in Rio de Janeiro had teams take part in beach-related tasks on the famous Copacabana Beach.

    Airdate: September 25, 2015[1]

    At the start of The Amazing Race 27, in public view in Venice Beach, California, Phil Keoghan told the eleven teams where they would travel first: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Their first task was to take a taxi to Mother's Beach in Marina del Rey and grab a Schiller water-bike. Then, they would drive it to Burton Chace Park. The first team to complete this task would receive the only tickets on the first flight while all the other teams would be on the second flight, departing half an hour later.

    Upon arriving in Rio de Janeiro, teams had to travel to Lagoa Heliport to get either a Route Info or a Fast Forward clue. For the Fast Forward, teams made their way to Clube São Conrado Free Flight where they had to ride a hang glider from Pedra Bonita and soar above the city. The teams who did not go for the Fast Forward had to pick a number and take a helicopter past Christ the Redeemer on the way to Urca Hill. Once landed, the helicopter manager would ask the teams, "What's the name of the monument you passed during the flight?" If teams gave the right answer, which was Christ the Redeemer, they would receive their next clue.

    The clue was a Detour, and the teams choose between Sand or Sidewalk. Both Detours had teams travel to Copacabana Beach where they changed into swimsuits. In Sand, teams had to play footvolley against local professional players. While the pros could not use their hands, the teams could. If teams can score six points before the pros scored eighteen, they will receive their next clue. In Sidewalk, teams had to do a giant geometric slide puzzle derived from the famous Copacabana pavement (a Portuguese pavement). Once teams completed the puzzle, they would receive their next clue. Both clues then directed teams to Arpoador Lookout for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 2 (Brazil → Argentina)
    Upon arriving in Buenos Aires, teams visited the room where the famous Argentine, Pope Francis, was baptized inside Basílica María Auxiliadora y San Carlos.

    Airdate: October 2, 2015[2]

    At the start of the leg, teams were told to fly to Buenos Aires, the capital city of Argentina. Upon arrival in Buenos Aires, teams had to locate the church where Pope Francis was baptized, leaving them to figure out that this refers to Basílica María Auxiliadora y San Carlos. Once at the church, teams had to pick a number in the order in which they arrived. The following morning, teams went inside the church, one at a time, to find the altar room, where the priest would give them their next clue.

    The clue was for the Detour, giving teams the choice of Cartoneros or Fletero. In Cartoneros, teams traveled to the Villa Crespo neighborhood at the intersection of Uriarte, Fray Justo Santa Maria and El Salvador Streets, where they had to pick up a cart, collect cardboard from recyclable bins, and transport it to a truck to be weighed. Once the cardboard reached a total weight of at least 100 kilograms (220 lb), the garbage worker would give them their next clue. However, there were only 8 carts available at a time. In Fletero, teams traveled to Plaza Dorrego and made their way to a Gabriel del Campo Antique Shop to pick up a statue, in pieces, and bring it to a truck. One team member would sit in the front and give the driver directions, while the other would hold the statue pieces in the back until reaching their next destination, the gazebo at Plaza Intendente Sebeer. Once they arrive at the park, they must bring all of the statue pieces, re-assemble them properly, and show the park director. If it's correct, they would get their next clue.

    The clues instructed teams to travel to Calle Bartolomé Mitre to search for their next clue, the Roadblock, asking "Who wants to go sideways?" One team member had to learn a tango routine with a twist, for the second half of the dance they were harnessed and had to finish the steps on the wall of a stage. Once they performed the entire routine correctly, they would receive their next clue, directing them to "The Cathedral of Polo", referring to Campo Argentino de Polo, for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 3 (Argentina)
    For the Roadblock in the Pampas region, team members had to properly hang a set of lamb and beef to make asado, an Argentine national dish.

    Airdate: October 9, 2015[3]

    Teams headed to San Antonio de Areco in the Pampas region and choose a pickup truck to proceed to their next destination, La Porteña. The Roadblock clue that one team member had to hang two racks of lamb and one rack of beef ribs to cook an asado. Once all meats were secured and skewered in the right direction, they received their next clue. Teams had to bring a roasted lamb and deliver to Plaza Principal to the judges for their Detour clue. In Horse, teams had to pick a polo mallet and change into polo gear. Then, they walk to a nearby riverside for a fake horse involved to navigate using a tack, then they had to push properly back to a Plaza. In Carriage, teams had to pick a buggy whip, travel by foot to La Cinacina Estancia, changed into Gaucho clothing, clean a carriage and then push it to a team of waiting horses. Once the horses were harnessed on a buggy, they rode back to the Plaza. At the end of both Detours, teams presented either the fake horse or whip to the judges and receive their next clue, instructing them to travel by foot to the Pit Stop at Parque Criollo y Museo Gauchesco Ricardo Güiraldes.

    Leg 4 (Argentina → Zambia → Zimbabwe)
    While in Zambia, teams visited Victoria Falls, the largest waterfall in the world, which is also one of the seven natural wonders of the world.

    Airdate: October 16, 2015[4]

    Teams traveled to Livingstone, Zambia, with an advise to task their flight tickets to Johannesburg and given two separate flights to Zambia. Upon arrival, they traveled to Mukini Village to take part in a traditional welcome ceremony involving them to spit water from a blessing to be received their clue, heading to Batoka Aerodrome for a Roadblock. The team member had to choose a microlight plane fly above Victoria Falls to locate the Route Marker right below Knife's Edge bridge. Once landed, they reunited with their partner and traveled to that bridge to walk across for their next clue, sending them to Shoestrings Backpackers Lodge to Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe to claim one of three departure times for the next day.

    On departure, teams received their Detour clue. In Co-Op, teams made their way to The Big Five Co-Op and had to stain and polish a carved wooden giraffe. When it was properly painted and dried, a woodcarver would give them their next clue. In Croquet, teams made their way to Victoria Falls Hotel and had to play croquet, scoring five points against professional players to receive their next clue, directed them to Rose of Charity Orphanage for the Pit Stop. Before checking in, teams were asked to donate their money to the orphanage, and were informed that the next leg was to begin immediately.

    Leg 5 (Zimbabwe)
    This leg of the race featured the first challenge of Season 1 where they had to swing across Batoka Gorge.

    Airdate: October 23, 2015[5]

    Teams traveled to the Lookout Cafe for the Roadblock. The team member participated in the very first task from Season 1, which they had to strap on a harness and free fall 200 feet (61 m) into the Batoka Gorge and swing above the Zambezi River. Once they returned to the top, they would get their Detour clue. In Crocs, where teams changed into wetsuits and submerged in a metal cage to feed meat to three Nile crocodiles using poles. Once the meat was fed, they received their next clue. In Canoes, teams had to get an inflatable canoe and paddle together across the river. Once they arrived at the riverbank, the member had to hoist their partner up a tree to retrieve the clue from a vulture's nest, and had to paddle back across the river.

    Teams traveled to The Lion Encounter where they walk through the bush accompanied by safari instructors and two lions to find their next clue in a skull, with two teams were permitted at a time, directed them to walk to Masuwe Private Game Reserve to receive a large cloth and wore around their heads. Each they had to get a basket of fruit at Masuwe Lodge to carry on their heads and continue walking carefully to the Pit Stop.

    Leg 6 (Zimbabwe → France)
    The world's famous Arc de Triomphe in Paris, which is also the second Pit Stop in the first season, served as the Pit Stop for this leg of the Race.

    Airdate: October 30, 2015[6]

    Teams started the leg to receive the Roadblock clue, one team member had to strap on a harness and bungee jump 364 feet (111 m) below Victoria Falls Bridge. Once returned to the top, they had to write their heart rate from a Fitbit fitness watch where they advise to track this information to be used for the upcoming challenge. They received their clue and headed to Paris, France. Upon arrival, they traveled by train to La Ferté-Alais to find Aérodrome Musée Volant Salis for the second Roadblock, the other team member must fly in a vintage Boeing PT-17 biplane over the French countryside to spot three words from the French Revolution motto seen from the ground: liberté, égalité, fraternité. Once recite them, a pilot would give them their next clue, sending them to travel Square Louise-Michel around Sacré-Cœur Basilica for Le Fantôme Blanc who would hand the Detour clue.

    One selection is Drops Mic, teams had to head to Quai de la Tournelle and perform a rap song by rapper Passi in Standard French. If their French pronunciation, rhythm and vibes were correct, Passi would give them their next clue. The other is Bust a Crab, teams had to travel to La Coupole Restaurant to work the Royal Platter, a signature crab dish to shuck and crack crabs properly with the chef's standards. At the end of both Detours, teams received a post card depicting a bridge, which was given to their next location, Pont Alexandre III to find their next clue, sending them to the Pit Stop "across from the iconic monument where the first team will triumph", referring to Place Charles de Gaulle, overlooking Arc de Triomphe, Phil informed them to start the next leg began immediately.

    Leg 7 (France → The Netherlands)
    The windmills around Kinderdijk are the site of this leg's Roadblock, where they had to search for a duplicate of the famous Van Gogh's Sunflowers painting.

    Airdate: November 6, 2015[7]

    Teams traveled to Rotterdam, Netherlands, in addition, they received a picture of a ship to figure out their next location was Vessel 11 to pick departure times within 15-minutes intervals for the next day. On departure, teams traveled to Kop van Zuid and had to embark the windmills in Kinderdijk for the Roadblock. One team member to find an exact duplicate of Vincent van Gogh's Sunflowers around nearby windmills. Once they found the correct duplicate, a miller would give them their next clue, instructed to use a Fitbit health card to record their highest heart rate from the previous leg and this heart rate from this task to subtract the difference. The solution would equal the number of tulips to pick up and deliver to the Spakenburgermeisje for their next clue.

    Teams headed to Nolet Distillery to face the Detour which they rode by tram into a specific location. In Ship, teams made their way to Millennium Tower using a training simulator to navigate a simulation of Rotterdam Harbour in stormy weather to take on a two-part mission. First, they deliver a pilot to a ship, next they went to the aid of a ship in distress. If successfully completed the mission, the captain would give their next clue. However, if they failed the mission and must try again. In Skip, teams traveled to Leuvehoofd Park and to complete a Double Dutch clapping routine on a jump rope for 45 seconds to receive their next clue, instructed them to The Hague and ride a tram to the Pit Stop at the Peace Palace.

    Leg 8 (The Netherlands → Poland)
    In Kraków, teams visited the infamous Oskar Schindler Factory to commemorate the lives of Jews killed in World War II.

    Airdate: November 13, 2015[8]

    Teams traveled to Kraków, Poland where they provide a smartphone to use the Travelocity app to book tickets. They traveled to Plaża Kraków, a hotel boat on Vistula River and the team member swam down for a clue into the pool. One Detour selection is Mine and teams head to Wieliczka Salt Mine to descend 1,000 feet (300 m) into the salt mine. Then, they had to carry a large timber support beam into a loading area, filling a mine cart with salt and pushed it back through the tunnel to a miner. The other Detour choice is Music and teams headed to the Main Square to choose a professional pianist, learn a musical piece and roll the piano through the streets to a performance area. Then, they had to perform a duet with a violinist in order to attract donations that enough to earn 100 zł (approximately US$25), they would receive their next clue.

    Teams arrived at Oskar Schindler Factory to the lives of Jewish people were saved during Kraków Ghetto. They gave a tour to commemorate the lives of Polish Jews, passed through Schindler's office to look 1,200 names inside the memorial room. Once they ended the tour, they received their clue to Kazimierz for a Roadblock. One team member had to identify seven traditional Jewish dishes from a writing list in the correct order, and then deliver them on a tray to a nearby restaurant, Klezmer-Hois. Once all of these dishes were correct, the restaurant owner would give them their next clue, directing them to the Pit Stop inside the restaurant.

    Leg 9 (Poland → India)
    Mehtab Bagh in Agra, overlooking the famous Taj Mahal, which is also one of the seven wonders of the world, served as the Pit Stop for this leg of the Race.

    Airdate: November 20, 2015[9]

    Teams headed to Agra, India, first they needed to travel by plane to Delhi. In Agra, they traveled to Hathi Ghat on a beach, the Roadblock where one team member had to transport a bundle of saris down to the banks of Yamuna River to shown how to tie for a traditional Indian washing to all of which saris are tied correctly, they had to wash them in a basin, transport across to beach to lay out for a dry. The Speed Bump required both team members must perform this task. Next, they went to Hanuman Temple in Johri Bazaar to receive a traditional Indian blessing for a Detour. In Cans, teams had to load and secure 120 metal cooking oil cans onto a flatbed bicycle through the crowded streets to deliver them to New Taj Oil Company. Once they were unloaded, they received their next clue. In Candy, teams had to cut small pieces from winter melons to make petha. Once the pieces weighed in at 1 maund (90 lb), and deliver the already packed petha to Pancchi Petha Candy Store to receive their next clue. Teams instructed to travel to Bijli Ghar Chauraha Roundabout for their next clue, directed the teams to travel to "Moonlight Garden", known locally as Mehtab Bagh, across the river from the famous Taj Mahal, and search the grounds for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 10 (India)
    This leg of the race paid tribute to the tradition of Indian Hindu wedding rituals, including Baraat.

    Airdate: November 27, 2015[10]

    • Agra (Kachora Bazaar) Roadblock: "Who's full of hot air?"
    • Agra (Shri Raj Complex – Goyal Book Store) U-Turn: Justin & Diana U-Turned Logan & Chris
    • Detour: Bring the Groom or Bring the Fun Shamsabad, Agra (Shri Ram Complex)
    • Shamsabad, Agra (Shri Ramchandra Farm House) Pit Stop: Leg 10

    The leg teams heading to Kachora Bazaar for a Roadblock. One team member had to use a pump to inflate enough balloons to fill a net attached at the back of a bicycle. Once the net was full, they rode across Yamuna bridge to deliver the balloons to a wedding planner on the other side for the next clue, instructing teams to head to Goyal Book Store. From there, they faced with the Detour. In Bring the Groom, teams had to hand-crank a portable generator until it produced enough power to light up a cumbersome candelabrum. Then they had to join a Baraat procession through the streets, the team member carrying the candelabrum while the other carried the generator, to escort a groom to his wedding party at Shri Ram Complex. Once the groom was delivered to his bride, they received their next clue. In Bring the Fun, teams had to push a mobile amusement swing through the crowded streets to deliver it to the outside playground at the same wedding party, then give eight children a ride in it to receive their next clue, instructed them to a Pit Stop inside the Shri Ramchandra Farm House.

    Leg 11 (India → Hong Kong, China → Macau, China)
    The Roadblock for this leg need teams to go to the Dancing Water Theatre inside City of Dreams in Macau where they took part in a performance of The House of Dancing Water.

    Airdate: December 4, 2015[11]

    Teams headed to Hong Kong. Upon arrival, they search a waiting Rolls-Royce at the airport to escort them to The Peninsula Hong Kong to their Detour. In Sam's, teams traveled to Sam's Tailor to pick up measurements for a suit jacket to a nearby Sam's Workshop, to properly cut out six template pieces of a matching design. They then had to deliver a finished suit to receive their next clue. In Cells, teams had to find to a marked store on Apliu Street, search boxes of used cell phones which one is turned on and dial a phone number displayed on the phone, the message would instruct them to an address on Kweilin Street to find their next clue.

    Teams traveled to Macau by ferry, and make their way to the Dancing Water Theatre inside City of Dreams for a Roadblock. One team member must apply a makeup and change a costume, had to take part in a performance of The House of Dancing Water. After diving over 30 feet (9.1 m) from the central mast-shaped platform into the surrounding pool, search a golden fish under the water and swim across to a fisherman on a raft. If they didn't complete before stopped the music and wait twenty minutes for the next performance to start over. That team member received their clue instructed to Centro Náutico da Praia Grande at the side of the Nam Van Lake and search for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 12 (Macau, China → United States)
    The final Roadblock of The Amazing Race 27 paid tribute to the NYC Fire Department by having teams take part in a firefighter training exercise.

    Airdate: December 11, 2015[12]

    Teams headed to New York City, the final destination city and made their way to NYC Fire Department Training Facility at Randall's Island for the final Roadblock. One team member had to don a firefighter's uniform to take part for a stunt training exercise. After climbing a ladder to an open window of a burning building, search inside for a dummy representing a victim. Once they exited the building with the dummy, they had to place it onto a waiting stretcher. The second part of the Roadblock was a memory task, they had to arrange firefighters' hats labeled with the capital cities of the countries visited during the Race in chronological order:

    Country Capital
    Brazil Brazil Brasília
    Argentina Argentina Buenos Aires
    Zambia Zambia Lusaka
    Zimbabwe Zimbabwe Harare
    France France Paris
    Netherlands The Netherlands Amsterdam
    Poland Poland Warsaw
    India India New Delhi
    China China Beijing

    Once all the hats were placed in the correct order, a firefighter would give them their next clue.

    Teams traveled to Belmont Park in Long Island and take a helicopter ride to Southampton. From there, they searched for their next clue to travel on foot nearly a mile to Shinnecock East County Park where had to ride a jet ski to a lobster boat, pull seven lobster traps from the water, empty them, and replace them with new traps. Once completed, they received a box containing the flags from the countries visited and tie them on a mast in order. Once they got the right order, a fisherman would give them their next clue, instructing them to swim to shore, and had to drive dune buggies down the beach for the third memory challenge. They had to assemble six Adirondack chairs things encountered during the Race must arrange them in chronological order. If the chairs were in the correct order (the water bike, the Argentine tango, an African lion, a Dutch windmill, India's Taj Mahal, and Hong Kong's Rolls Royce), the carpenter would get their final clue, directing them to travel on foot to the estate at 1620 Meadow Lane for the Finish Line.

    After
    Leg 1 (United States → Brazil)
    The Detour in Rio de Janeiro had teams take part in beach-related tasks on the famous Copacabana Beach.

    Airdate: September 25, 2015[14]

    The race started in Venice Beach, Phil Keoghan told the teams to travel to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. First, take them to Mother's Beach to ride Schiller water-bike and end in Burton Chace Park, the first team to finish would get the first flight and the rest on the second. In Rio, teams had to travel to Lagoa Heliport and picked a number to ride a helicopter past around Christ the Redeemer to Urca Hill. Once landed, a helicopter pilot asked, "What's the name of the monument you passed during the flight?". If they say "Christ the Redeemer", they received their next clue. The Fast Forward where teams had to travel to Clube São Conrado Free Flight and had to ride a hang glider from Pedra Bonita high above the city.

    Teams faced the Detour and had to travel to Copacabana Beach, either option is to require to wear swimwear. In Sand, teams played footvolley against local professional players that could not user their hands, only teams could. The team gave a score of six points against the pros scored eighteen, they will receive their next clue. In Sidewalk, teams take part for a huge geometric slide puzzle from a famous Copacabana pavement (a Portuguese pavement). Once completed the puzzle, they would receive their next clue. Both clues then directed teams to Arpoador Lookout for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 2 (Brazil → Argentina)
    Upon arriving in Buenos Aires, teams visited the room where the famous Argentine, Pope Francis, was baptized inside Basílica María Auxiliadora y San Carlos.

    Airdate: October 2, 2015[15]

    Teams traveled to Buenos Aires, Argentina to the church where Pope Francis was baptized, leaving them to figure out was Basílica María Auxiliadora y San Carlos to pick one of three departure times the following morning. On their designated times, they find the altar room inside the church to look a priest to give them their Detour clue. In Cartoneros, teams teams traveled to the streets of Buenos Aires, had to pick up a cart, cardboard from recyclable bins, and transport to a truck to be weighed at least 100 kilograms (220 lb), the garbage worker received their next clue. However, there were only 8 carts available at a time. In Fletero, teams pick up a pieces of statue, and bring it to a truck. One team member sit in the front of the truck to give directions, the other hold the pieces to the Gazebo and must bring all of the statue pieces to re-assemble properly to the park director. If its correct, they would receive their next clue. From the Detour, teams instructed to head to Calle Bartolomé Mitre for a Roadblock. One team member had to learn a tango upside down, the second part had to harnessed and finish the steps from a stage. Once they performed the entire routine correctly, they would receive their next clue to the Pit Stop known as "The Cathedral of Polo", referring to Campo Argentino de Polo.

    Leg 3 (Argentina)
    For the Roadblock in the Pampas region, team members had to properly hang a set of lamb and beef to make asado, an Argentine national dish.

    Airdate: October 9, 2015[16]

    Teams headed to San Antonio de Areco in the Pampas region and choose a pickup truck to proceed to their next destination, La Porteña. The Roadblock clue that one team member had to hang two racks of lamb and one rack of beef ribs to cook an asado. Once all meats were secured and skewered in the right direction, they received their next clue. Teams had to bring a roasted lamb and deliver to Plaza Principal to the judges for their Detour clue. In Horse, teams had to pick a polo mallet and change into polo gear. Then, they walk to a nearby riverside for a fake horse involved to navigate using a tack, then they had to push properly back to a Plaza. In Carriage, teams had to pick a buggy whip, travel by foot to La Cinacina Estancia, changed into Gaucho clothing, clean a carriage and then push it to a team of waiting horses. Once the horses were harnessed on a buggy, they rode back to the Plaza. At the end of both Detours, teams presented either the fake horse or whip to the judges and receive their next clue, instructing them to travel by foot to the Pit Stop at Parque Criollo y Museo Gauchesco Ricardo Güiraldes.

    Leg 4 (Argentina → Zambia → Zimbabwe)
    While in Zambia, teams visited Victoria Falls, the largest waterfall in the world, which is also one of the seven natural wonders of the world.

    Airdate: October 16, 2015[17]

    Teams traveled to Livingstone, Zambia, with an advise to task their flight tickets to Johannesburg and given two separate flights to Zambia. Upon arrival, they traveled to Mukini Village to take part in a traditional welcome ceremony involving them to spit water from a blessing to be received their clue, heading to Batoka Aerodrome for a Roadblock. The team member had to choose a microlight plane fly above Victoria Falls to locate the Route Marker right below Knife's Edge bridge. Once landed, they reunited with their partner and traveled to that bridge to walk across for their next clue, sending them to Shoestrings Backpackers Lodge to Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe to claim one of three departure times for the next day.

    On departure, teams received their Detour clue. In Co-Op, teams made their way to The Big Five Co-Op and had to stain and polish a carved wooden giraffe. When it was properly painted and dried, a woodcarver would give them their next clue. In Croquet, teams made their way to Victoria Falls Hotel and had to play croquet, scoring five points against professional players to receive their next clue, directed them to Rose of Charity Orphanage for the Pit Stop. Before checking in, teams were asked to donate their money to the orphanage, and were informed that the next leg was to begin immediately.

    Leg 5 (Zimbabwe)
    This leg of the race featured the first challenge of Season 1 where they had to swing across Batoka Gorge.

    Airdate: October 23, 2015[18]

    Teams traveled to the Lookout Cafe for the Roadblock. The team member participated in the very first task from Season 1, which they had to strap on a harness and free fall 200 feet (61 m) into the Batoka Gorge and swing above the Zambezi River. Once they returned to the top, they would get their Detour clue. In Crocs, where teams changed into wetsuits and submerged in a metal cage to feed meat to three Nile crocodiles using poles. Once the meat was fed, they received their next clue. In Canoes, teams had to get an inflatable canoe and paddle together across the river. Once they arrived at the riverbank, the member had to hoist their partner up a tree to retrieve the clue from a vulture's nest, and had to paddle back across the river.

    Teams traveled to The Lion Encounter where they walk through the bush accompanied by safari instructors and two lions to find their next clue in a skull, with two teams were permitted at a time, directed them to walk to Masuwe Private Game Reserve to receive a large cloth and wore around their heads. Each they had to get a basket of fruit at Masuwe Lodge to carry on their heads and continue walking carefully to the Pit Stop.

    Leg 6 (Zimbabwe → France)
    The world's famous Arc de Triomphe in Paris, which is also the second Pit Stop in the first season, served as the Pit Stop for this leg of the Race.

    Airdate: October 30, 2015[19]

    Teams started the leg to receive the Roadblock clue, one team member had to strap on a harness and bungee jump 364 feet (111 m) below Victoria Falls Bridge. Once returned to the top, they had to write their heart rate from a Fitbit fitness watch where they advise to track this information to be used for the upcoming challenge. They received their clue and headed to Paris, France. Upon arrival, they traveled by train to La Ferté-Alais to find Aérodrome Musée Volant Salis for the second Roadblock, the other team member must fly in a vintage Boeing PT-17 biplane over the French countryside to spot three words from the French Revolution motto seen from the ground: liberté, égalité, fraternité. Once recite them, a pilot would give them their next clue, sending them to travel Square Louise-Michel around Sacré-Cœur Basilica for Le Fantôme Blanc who would hand the Detour clue.

    One selection is Drops Mic, teams had to head to Quai de la Tournelle and perform a rap song by rapper Passi in Standard French. If their French pronunciation, rhythm and vibes were correct, Passi would give them their next clue. The other is Bust a Crab, teams had to travel to La Coupole Restaurant to work the Royal Platter, a signature crab dish to shuck and crack crabs properly with the chef's standards. At the end of both Detours, teams received a post card depicting a bridge, which was given to their next location, Pont Alexandre III to find their next clue, sending them to the Pit Stop "across from the iconic monument where the first team will triumph", referring to Place Charles de Gaulle, overlooking Arc de Triomphe, Phil informed them to start the next leg began immediately.

    Leg 7 (France → The Netherlands)
    The windmills around Kinderdijk are the site of this leg's Roadblock, where they had to search for a duplicate of the famous Van Gogh's Sunflowers painting.

    Airdate: November 6, 2015[20]

    Teams traveled to Rotterdam, Netherlands, in addition, they received a picture of a ship to figure out their next location was Vessel 11 to pick departure times within 15-minutes intervals for the next day. On departure, teams traveled to Kop van Zuid and had to embark the windmills in Kinderdijk for the Roadblock. One team member to find an exact duplicate of Vincent van Gogh's Sunflowers around nearby windmills. Once they found the correct duplicate, a miller would give them their next clue, instructed to use a Fitbit health card to record their highest heart rate from the previous leg and this heart rate from this task to subtract the difference. The solution would equal the number of tulips to pick up and deliver to the Spakenburgermeisje for their next clue.

    Teams headed to Nolet Distillery to face the Detour which they rode by tram into a specific location. In Ship, teams made their way to Millennium Tower using a training simulator to navigate a simulation of Rotterdam Harbour in stormy weather to take on a two-part mission. First, they deliver a pilot to a ship, next they went to the aid of a ship in distress. If successfully completed the mission, the captain would give their next clue. However, if they failed the mission and must try again. In Skip, teams traveled to Leuvehoofd Park and to complete a Double Dutch clapping routine on a jump rope for 45 seconds to receive their next clue, instructed them to The Hague and ride a tram to the Pit Stop at the Peace Palace.

    Leg 8 (The Netherlands → Poland)
    In Kraków, teams visited the infamous Oskar Schindler Factory to commemorate the lives of Jews killed in World War II.

    Airdate: November 13, 2015[21]

    Teams traveled to Kraków, Poland where they provide a smartphone to use the Travelocity app to book tickets. They traveled to Plaża Kraków, a hotel boat on Vistula River and the team member swam down for a clue into the pool. One Detour selection is Mine and teams head to Wieliczka Salt Mine to descend 1,000 feet (300 m) into the salt mine. Then, they had to carry a large timber support beam into a loading area, filling a mine cart with salt and pushed it back through the tunnel to a miner. The other Detour choice is Music and teams headed to the Main Square to choose a professional pianist, learn a musical piece and roll the piano through the streets to a performance area. Then, they had to perform a duet with a violinist in order to attract donations that enough to earn 100 zł (approximately US$25), they would receive their next clue.

    Teams arrived at Oskar Schindler Factory to the lives of Jewish people were saved during Kraków Ghetto. They gave a tour to commemorate the lives of Polish Jews, passed through Schindler's office to look 1,200 names inside the memorial room. Once they ended the tour, they received their clue to Kazimierz for a Roadblock. One team member had to identify seven traditional Jewish dishes from a writing list in the correct order, and then deliver them on a tray to a nearby restaurant, Klezmer-Hois. Once all of these dishes were correct, the restaurant owner would give them their next clue, directing them to the Pit Stop inside the restaurant.

    Leg 9 (Poland → India)
    Mehtab Bagh in Agra, overlooking the famous Taj Mahal, which is also one of the seven wonders of the world, served as the Pit Stop for this leg of the Race.

    Airdate: November 20, 2015[22]

    Teams headed to Agra, India, first they needed to travel by plane to Delhi. In Agra, they traveled to Hathi Ghat on a beach, the Roadblock where one team member had to transport a bundle of saris down to the banks of Yamuna River to shown how to tie for a traditional Indian washing to all of which saris are tied correctly, they had to wash them in a basin, transport across to beach to lay out for a dry. The Speed Bump required both team members must perform this task. Next, they went to Hanuman Temple in Johri Bazaar to receive a traditional Indian blessing for a Detour. In Cans, teams had to load and secure 120 metal cooking oil cans onto a flatbed bicycle through the crowded streets to deliver them to New Taj Oil Company. Once they were unloaded, they received their next clue. In Candy, teams had to cut small pieces from winter melons to make petha. Once the pieces weighed in at 1 maund (90 lb), and deliver the already packed petha to Pancchi Petha Candy Store to receive their next clue. Teams instructed to travel to Bijli Ghar Chauraha Roundabout for their next clue, directed the teams to travel to "Moonlight Garden", known locally as Mehtab Bagh, across the river from the famous Taj Mahal, and search the grounds for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 10 (India)
    This leg of the race paid tribute to the tradition of Indian Hindu wedding rituals, including Baraat.

    Airdate: November 27, 2015[23]

    • Agra (Kachora Bazaar) Roadblock: "Who's full of hot air?"
    • Agra (Shri Raj Complex – Goyal Book Store) U-Turn: Justin & Diana U-Turned Logan & Chris
    • Detour: Bring the Groom or Bring the Fun Shamsabad, Agra (Shri Ram Complex)
    • Shamsabad, Agra (Shri Ramchandra Farm House) Pit Stop: Leg 10

    The leg teams heading to Kachora Bazaar for a Roadblock. One team member had to use a pump to inflate enough balloons to fill a net attached at the back of a bicycle. Once the net was full, they rode across Yamuna bridge to deliver the balloons to a wedding planner on the other side for the next clue, instructing teams to head to Goyal Book Store. From there, they faced with the Detour. In Bring the Groom, teams had to hand-crank a portable generator until it produced enough power to light up a cumbersome candelabrum. Then they had to join a Baraat procession through the streets, the team member carrying the candelabrum while the other carried the generator, to escort a groom to his wedding party at Shri Ram Complex. Once the groom was delivered to his bride, they received their next clue. In Bring the Fun, teams had to push a mobile amusement swing through the crowded streets to deliver it to the outside playground at the same wedding party, then give eight children a ride in it to receive their next clue, instructed them to a Pit Stop inside the Shri Ramchandra Farm House.

    Leg 11 (India → Hong Kong, China → Macau, China)
    The Roadblock for this leg need teams to go to the Dancing Water Theatre inside City of Dreams in Macau where they took part in a performance of The House of Dancing Water.

    Airdate: December 4, 2015[24]

    Teams headed to Hong Kong. Upon arrival, they search a waiting Rolls-Royce at the airport to escort them to The Peninsula Hong Kong to their Detour. In Sam's, teams traveled to Sam's Tailor to pick up measurements for a suit jacket to a nearby Sam's Workshop, to properly cut out six template pieces of a matching design. They then had to deliver a finished suit to receive their next clue. In Cells, teams had to find to a marked store on Apliu Street, search boxes of used cell phones which one is turned on and dial a phone number displayed on the phone, the message would instruct them to an address on Kweilin Street to find their next clue.

    Teams traveled to Macau by ferry, and make their way to the Dancing Water Theatre inside City of Dreams for a Roadblock. One team member must apply a makeup and change a costume, had to take part in a performance of The House of Dancing Water. After diving over 30 feet (9.1 m) from the central mast-shaped platform into the surrounding pool, search a golden fish under the water and swim across to a fisherman on a raft. If they didn't complete before stopped the music and wait twenty minutes for the next performance to start over. That team member received their clue instructed to Centro Náutico da Praia Grande at the side of the Nam Van Lake and search for the Pit Stop.

    Leg 12 (Macau, China → United States)
    The final Roadblock of The Amazing Race 27 paid tribute to the NYC Fire Department by having teams take part in a firefighter training exercise.

    Airdate: December 11, 2015[25]

    Teams headed to New York City, the final destination city and made their way to NYC Fire Department Training Facility at Randall's Island for the final Roadblock. One team member had to don a firefighter's uniform to take part for a stunt training exercise. After climbing a ladder to an open window of a burning building, search inside for a dummy representing a victim. Once they exited the building with the dummy, they had to place it onto a waiting stretcher. The second part of the Roadblock was a memory task, they had to arrange firefighters' hats labeled with the capital cities of the countries visited during the Race in chronological order:

    Country Capital
    Brazil Brazil Brasília
    Argentina Argentina Buenos Aires
    Zambia Zambia Lusaka
    Zimbabwe Zimbabwe Harare
    France France Paris
    Netherlands The Netherlands Amsterdam
    Poland Poland Warsaw
    India India New Delhi
    China China Beijing

    Once all the hats were placed in the correct order, a firefighter would give them their next clue.

    Teams traveled to Belmont Park in Long Island and take a helicopter ride to Southampton. From there, they searched for their next clue to travel on foot nearly a mile to Shinnecock East County Park where had to ride a jet ski to a lobster boat, pull seven lobster traps from the water, empty them, and replace them with new traps. Once completed, they received a box containing the flags from the countries visited and tie them on a mast in order. Once they got the right order, a fisherman would give them their next clue, instructing them to swim to shore, and had to drive dune buggies down the beach for the third memory challenge. They had to assemble six Adirondack chairs things encountered during the Race must arrange them in chronological order. If the chairs were in the correct order (the water bike, the Argentine tango, an African lion, a Dutch windmill, India's Taj Mahal, and Hong Kong's Rolls Royce), the carpenter would get their final clue, directing them to travel on foot to the estate at 1620 Meadow Lane for the Finish Line.

    References
    1. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 1: A Little Too Much Beefcake". TV Guide. Retrieved September 19, 2015.
    2. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 2: Get In There and Think Like A Dog". TV Guide. Retrieved September 19, 2015.
    3. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 3: Where My Dogs At?". TV Guide. Retrieved September 19, 2015.
    4. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 4: Good Old Fashioned Spit in the Face". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    5. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 5: King of the Jungle". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    6. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 6". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    7. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 7". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    8. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 8". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    9. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 9". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    10. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 10". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    11. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 11". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    12. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 12". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    13. ^ "Hamptons Fishermen on The Amazing Race Season 27 Finale". Dan's Papers. December 1, 2015. Retrieved December 4, 2015.
    14. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 1: A Little Too Much Beefcake". TV Guide. Retrieved September 19, 2015.
    15. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 2: Get In There and Think Like A Dog". TV Guide. Retrieved September 19, 2015.
    16. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 3: Where My Dogs At?". TV Guide. Retrieved September 19, 2015.
    17. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 4: Good Old Fashioned Spit in the Face". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    18. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 5: King of the Jungle". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    19. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 6". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    20. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 7". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    21. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 8". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    22. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 9". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    23. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 10". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    24. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 11". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    25. ^ "The Amazing Race 27 Episode 12". TV Guide. Retrieved October 2, 2015.
    26. ^ "Hamptons Fishermen on The Amazing Race Season 27 Finale". Dan's Papers. December 1, 2015. Retrieved December 4, 2015.

    ESAD-Hooker fucked up my edits which wasn't look mess. That thing is we should use the after summary above which meets the standards of WP:NOT#PLOT. ApprenticeFan work 08:55, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    March 2016 User:Springee canvassing

    User reported: Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Notified user: William_M._Connolley at User_talk:William_M._Connolley notifying him of dispute at article Ford Pinto

    Since you have had involvement with HughD, you should see how many edits he added to the Ford Pinto article. 200 in the 5 days before it was locked! Seriously, if you are brave you should give it a look.

    diff: 21:01 10 March 2016

    Spamming; notification of a user "with no significant connection to the topic at hand." Campaigning; non-neutral wording of notice. Vote stacking; active content discussions at article talk. Previous interaction with the targeted editor is not among the listed examples of appropriate reasons for notification to a user talk page at WP:APPNOTE.

    Springee recent previous report by Scoobydunk for canvassing 2 December 2015: WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#User_Springee_Canvassing

    Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:22, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Not canvasing. No suggestion or request to edit the page. I'm simply blow away by HughD's ability to make 255 edits to a page since March 2nd including 3 days when the topic was locked! Springee (talk) 19:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that the edit shown here is not canvassing. I don't understand what the problem is, nor do I see where Hugh's direct involvement with the talk page conversation is. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]


    Could we perhaps boomerang this into an assessment of HughD's editing 'style'. His shotgun attacks on the page, posting at a rate of about 1 edit per hour, night and day,for more than a week, plus the same on the talk page, when combined with a complete inability to answer a straight question with a straight answer, and his tendency to assume his arguments are the only ones that matter, make cooperating with him impossible. Greglocock (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Oshwah, I agree with Greglocock, an editor on the Pinto page, that HughD's behavior on the Ford Pinto article and talk pages has been disruptive. I'm not sure if boomerang would apply to that or not. However, I think that trying to ping Scoobydunk DOES count as canvasing and would be a boomerang. Why would HughD add a ping to Scoobydunk [1] today (Mar 15th) vs 4 days ago? Scoobydunk has no involvement with the Pinto page. The only reason to notify him of this discussion is the hopes that he can sway the group opinion. That is canvasing. Springee (talk) 12:06, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I would like to clarify, I contacted Ricky81682 requesting suggestions for dealing with HughD's disruptive editing at Ford Pinto and later Chrysler (an on going problem). Springee (talk) 17:19, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Additional canvassing incident

    14 March 2016 Springee notified Fyddlestix; as with above previously reported incident of canvassing, this incident exhibits spamming (notification of a user "with no significant connection to the topic at hand"), campaigning (non-neutral wording of notice), and vote stacking (recruitment to content dispute at Ford Pinto). Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    HughD, I believe at this point I've asked three or perhaps four editors who are familiar with your disruptive editing behavior for suggestions as to how do deal with it. In no instance did I ask those editors to weigh in on the content of the articles. All cases were attempts to seek help in dealing with your disruptive behavior. Springee (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Another troll IP

    IPs blocked. Series of ongoing disruption by IP hopper. Eik Corell has been doing the right thing and reporting new cases here. No action on this thread for a few days; becoming stale. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:86.187.161.44 Eik Corell (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Blocked. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:28, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    New one: User:86.187.160.92. Hope that edit filter comes up soon. Eik Corell (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That's blocked too. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:50, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Round 3! User:86.187.166.68 Eik Corell (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    As a non-involved non-admin I saw this discussion and the speed with which the user was blocked without discussion or diffs puzzled me. Looking just at the user's/Ip's edit history there was no context for understanding why this user was blocked. Eventually I saw the article's edit history and the discussion at Talk:Metin2#The p Server Scene (pServers) and it all made sense but even there the behavior is not "trolling", it is just a way over the top case of tendentious editing and apparent multi-IP socking/block evasion. My point is nobody should have to go look this stuff up. An ANI post is supposed to contain the necessary information/diffs/links for others to review. The link to the talk page should have been there at the least and frankly there probably should have been a single post being re-used for the ongoing problem instead of starting a new one cold. @Eik Corell:, Obviously Malcolmxl5 was previously involved and intrinsically understood the problem, but imagine if he was offline for some unforeseen reason (like a power outage) and someone else had to act on the matter. Shortcuts at ANI are not helpful if it means Admins have to go do their own research to find the history of the problem. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 20:22, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Ah yes, there are two discussions further up the page and others in the history about this IP who is harassing Eik: this one will be helpful. IP-hopping troll, continued. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I see that. I tend to be a bit of a bulldog and not let stuff go easily so I dug in and found the following:
    Based on all of this is seems it is indeed trolling after all. Seems to me Eik Corell should revisit the ISP and try again, explaining to them that WP does not make its raw server logs available for reasons of user privacy but that the edit time stamps should provide sufficient information to identify the user involved. It has been six years and maybe they have a more enlightened view of WP these days. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 20:46, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Eik Corell, Malcolmxl5, and Koala Tea Of Mercy: If this doesn't qualify for an LTA case, I don't know what does. I'm familiar with the problem having blocked the guy before, but a comprehensive report at LTA would make it much easier for us at AIV to block on sight. Katietalk 17:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, that would be helpful, if that can be done. Have blocked another two three IPs today. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yikes it feels like this guy is playing his own version of Whack-a-mole, only he's the mole and seems to like it that way! Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 09:22, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Eik Corell: any chance you could find at any examples of this problem from 6 years ago? That would be excellent to add to the LTA case too. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 09:27, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, there's a whole range of IP's in this article's edit history, with edit wars on many video game articles. Note that in some of these early edits, the IP's start with "81." instead of the typical "86." Eik Corell (talk) 15:18, 16 March 2016 (UTC).[reply]
    Sending a fresh one over to AIV (82.232.81.119). Going to ask for page protection too. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Binksternet engaging in Harassment

    No evidence of harassment. (non-admin closure) --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:58, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Binksternet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    The user Binksternet repeatedly reverts almost all my edits in the article Eurodance and my efforts to improve the article justifying himself my edits as original research and without first using the talk page and follow the rules of WP:DR to resolve our disputes. Instead he behaves aggressively by sending me non civility warnings on my talk page. I have already received two of them from him and one form user Mlpearc (perhaps a friend of him) who never responded to my reaction message. I have a strong reason to believe this is personal, I recently noticed he does the same in other articles as well, removing my edits without any obvious reason, for example: [2] Clicklander (talk) 08:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm not harassing Clicklander. What's happening is Clicklander continues to put unreferenced or poorly referenced text into the Eurodance article. Clicklander does not like having this unsupported work questioned or deleted. On the article talk page, Clicklander said there were "many" reliable sources that could be cited, but none of these have been named.[3] Instead Clicklander named www.eurokdj.com which was judged unreliable at RSN since it is a website published by Karine Sanche who is a web designer in France, not a music critic, musicologist or music journalist. If Clicklander was using music textbooks and trade magazines, and if these sources actually talked about Eurodance, then I would not have such a big problem with the edits. Binksternet (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    My report concerns your behaviour only. Whether a work in wikipedia should be questioned and deleted or not, is something should be discussed in specific talk pages and has nothing to do with this section. Do not try to confuse the administrators. Clicklander (talk) 09:45, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment (Non-administrator comment) I'm afraid that is not necessarilly true. An editor- particular relatively recently joined- should be aware that lodging a report at an administrative noticeboard oftens leads to an examination as to that editor's own behaviour and edit history. That, of course, can all of a sudden have consequences, not to say the least for the complainant. Just sayin'. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:41, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    They're not so easily confused. Lots of times on Wikipedia the frustration felt by a new editor is because the work isn't so very well supported by cites. Binksternet (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Kind of feel like there's nothing to see here since I'm seeing nothing. Harassment and other forms of disruption tend to leave evidence trails and there's real evidence no real evidence here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 09:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Serialjoepsycho, I take it you mean, "and there's no real evidence here"? EEng 16:33, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Apologies, yes and thank you.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:39, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The complaint was only accompanied by one specific diff, and OP claims it was a removal without any obvious reason. However, there is a clear, and sufficient reason in the edit summary. Looks like nothing to see here, unless OP can identify some specific items of concern.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:17, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I do not know why you only looked at this diff and not at the editing history of the article I mainly pointed out, but I can help you to see more (if you want to). On the 3rd March I edited Eurodance article for first time by doing some minor improvement in the existing unreferenced parts of the article. Mainly adding some more examples in the list of artists, for example: [4] [5] and reorganized some song examples in chronological order [6] plus trying to find some references in order the existing content to be better supported [7]. Binksternet reverted all my edits twice [8] [9] ignoring my messages to use the talk page first [10] [11]. At the third time he tagged my edits for lacking citations [12], NOT the unreferenced sections but just my edits! I finally moved the tags to the correct place referring to the whole part [13]. After all this I tried to communicate with him in the talk page to order to resolve our dispute by opening a new discussion regarding my edits.

    On 4th, 6th and 7th March I attempted some more improvement again to the existing information like removing some unreliable sources as Binksternet suggested [14] added some additional info supported by references [15] [16] [17] and restructuring the chapters in better way [18]. Binksternet proceeded to a massive deletion of the unreferenced parts [19] ,info written by various editors over long time, without notifying first in the talk page for his intentions and let others to express opinions whether this should be done or if some parts could be better supported and kept.

    After notifying in the talk page on 8th March I restored the section with the artist examples which was totally screwed up after Binksternet's edits, removed the unsourced parts and added some reference for the rest [20]. I also partially restored the classification part which for me was very important for the article and added a reference to be better supported [21]. Binksternet's reaction once again was not to use the talk page to express his objections, instead he removed once again entirely the classification section and in addition he sent me this aggressive warning for blocking my account [22]. For once again I further tried to resolve our depute in the talk page explaining what I believe should be kept and why, without further restoring this part in order not to lead to edit war and wait for more opinions from other editors.

    On 14th March I added one more reference [23] and improved the House music part with some referenced info about Techno music in order the existing examples in this section to be better supported [24]. Binksternet again reverted all my edits [25] again did not use the talk page and again left me another one aggressive warning in my page [26].

    And last but not least, regarding his edit in the other article [27] yes he gave a reason for this. This reason however is invalid. Eurodance was in fact his main genre as a solo singer (not as a group member), and that's not only described inside the article but also supported by the reference Nr. 30. There are many ways to improve an article if you really want to, but from all this info to just choose to revert my edit and after all that happened in the Eurodance article for me is suspicious for his real intentions.

    Once again I am not judging whether he is right or not to want the poorly unreferenced parts of an article removed. For most parts perhaps he is right and I also agree with him. I am judging the way he does this, his attitude that for me he clearly does not respect the wikipedia's guidance for WP:DR and does not respect the other editors and their efforts. If you guys still think there is nothing to see here and still find his behaviour acceptable, then perhaps we have a different perception about what Civility means. Clicklander (talk) 09:18, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Clicklander, you need to read WP:BRD. If you make BOLD edits, particularly if they are uncited or poorly cited, it is your responsibility to gain talk-page WP:CONSENSUS for them before attempting to replace them if they are contested or reverted. Binksternet has carefully responded to all of your queries on the article's talk page. However you have failed to achieve any policy-based consensus. Binksternet is a very very experienced editor and he is abiding by policy and by WP:BRD. You, however, are not. If you want to engage in dispute resolution, see WP:DR. There is no harassment here on Binksternet's part; however there is a failure on your part to gain consensus for your changes and a failure on your part to use or provide reliable-source citations. Softlavender (talk) 09:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC); edited 09:37, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Softlavender just for your info Binksternet is wikipedia editor since 2007, I am editor since 2009. That's our difference in experience. And experienced or not this doesn't change the way someone should behave. Clicklander (talk) 09:51, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Clicklander, you are still a novice editor and have made less than 1,150 edits to Wikipedia. Binksternet has made over 172,450 edits to Wikipedia and is a master Wikipedia editor. I think it's time to withdraw this ANI filing and learn to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies. Continuing to prolong this thread, and failing to listen to the advice you have been given, and failing to abide by the policies and guidelines you have been notified of, may result in a WP:BOOMERANG. -- Softlavender (talk) 10:00, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clicklander, for all your talk of civility, it's rather striking that you don't see consensus, when it's literally right in front of you. Not a single editor has said they see any merit in your complaint - and several have responded. And yet, you persist. Not really sure what more you need; but your behavior here speaks volumes about your behavior during this dispute. At this point, a word to the wise should be sufficient: but we'll soon see. However, before proceeding, may I strongly suggest that you review WP:LISTEN. X4n6 (talk) 05:25, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    It's very interesting how some people like to investigate and comment on my behaviour, on my experience, on my knowledge and how much enjoy giving advices and warnings rather than dealing with the case. I do not have anything more to say. All facts are here and anyone can draw their own conclusions. Clicklander (talk) 07:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • People have drawn their own conclusions. Obviously, they just haven't drawn the conclusions you want. Or want to hear. Nor do you really seem willing to listen to or learn from the explanations for their conclusions. Especially, when they offer advice you clearly don't want to hear. But the bottom line is simple: it doesn't matter if you're a new editor or a veteran. If you post poorly sourced material, which you've already tried to defend doing, then you should expect its removal. This project isn't interested in publishing your personal opinions. It's not a blog. It doesn't publish editorials. See WP:FORUM. So either reliably source your edits, or don't publish them. You cannot publish first, then go searching for sources later. If you do, expect the result. That goes for all editors. So you must decide if you're capable of - and willing to - abide by those same rules. If not, working on this encyclopedia, may not be for you. X4n6 (talk) 11:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Rude vulgarian editor

    Hi, can you please deal with this fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=RepRap_project&type=revision&diff=710238548&oldid=710238425

    He is also edit warring. CaptainYuge (talk) 20:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I have notified the editor that this ANI discussion is ongoing, as should be done. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    When dealing with this fellow I suggest we give him a barnstar, and lets give a boomerang (smelly) trout to the OP. -Roxy the dog™ woof 20:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    He's Vulgarian, I've been to Vulgaria, pleasant country, but go on the off season. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I made a typo in that dif. Redacted here since I can't do it there: "remove promotional content sourced to a conference abstract. we would not accept rank bullshit like this added to an article about a drug and we don't accept it here" I'm talking with a few people in the RepRap movement on the article Talk page, as part of my efforts to wrest that article from their abuse of WP as a kind of movement webpage, promoting what they have been doing. The goals of their movement are admirable, and I don't think they have understood that they have been abusing Wikipedia, so I am not registering any complaint here. So far the work and discussions on Talk are going relatively OK.. I am not seeking any intervention, just writing this to provide context to the community. And yes, I should use more gentle language, I know. Sometimes the promotionalism gets to me. That is my bad. Jytdog (talk) 20:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    You delete two thirds of an article with edits like these [28] [29], then when you're reverted by another editor and invited to discuss it at Talk: your immediate reaction is to repeat the blanking, warn them for edit warring, and now talk about boomerangs here. Just who is doing the edit warring, I wonder? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Someone may wish to review this user's history. He's got a long trail of bodies and accusations of edit warring (whilst edit warring himself) and of using COI accusations as a cudgel to batter his opponents. Note the talk page for the article in question -- he's already asserting to me a "higher level" of sourcing and notability is required for inclusion in the article, which at a glance reads far and above what is used for general notability and RS standards. Who is he to assign his own personal values above the project? I appear to have fallen in the path of a strongly agenda driven combat editor. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:15, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, no. It's really clear who the edit warrior is here. [30] You've been at this for months. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I've temporarily semi-protected the article. This should not be construed as an endorsement of the current version or any that might be in the history. I trust all parties involved to use the WP:BRD process. --Kinu t/c 21:29, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Kinu. That was helpful. I understand you are not endorsing any version - I am just glad this might drive discussion of specific content issues. Jytdog (talk) 21:45, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Edit warrning/warring

    Please cite this user: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=RepRap_project&type=revision&diff=710248489&oldid=710245750 He keeps RVing my sourced changes with NO discussion of the merits of the edits. He is wholesale undoing over a dozen edits. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:19, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Attempts to out editors

    As Andy Digley mentioned this combat editor has been warring on this article for *months* and has been abusing COI policies to attempt to coerce new editors to out themselves from anonymity. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:20, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    @Andy Dingley: did you really say that Jytdog tries to coerce new editors? Don't see that in this discussion... that from a past discussion? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:57, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Months of edit warring, ongoing

    He's still not stopping -- this user is unrepentant and should be blocked temporarily to curb his hostile behavior: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=RepRap_project&type=revision&diff=710249014&oldid=710248489 CaptainYuge (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Not to mention grave threats of harm. Or not. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Now edit warring on the talk page

    Now he's removing sections from the talk page. CaptainYuge (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Ongoing edit warring on talk page

    Can someone please stop this guy? He's out of control. https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:RepRap_project&action=history CaptainYuge (talk) 21:42, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    (edit conflict) Actually, that removal was perfectly acceptable, however I would have preferred that Jytdog not remove it himself per your reaction to when he does anything. That removal is due to WP:TPG where it is stated to Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page. Also, please stop making new sections every time something new comes up. It's really unnecessary. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:53, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hu boy... this is going to be one hell of a boomerang... --Tarage (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What does that mean? I filed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Talk:RepRap_project CaptainYuge (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    A request to full-protect an article talk page! Wow, just wow. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    It means WP:BOOMARANG. QuackGuru (talk) 21:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    In a nutshell, it means you are not going to get the response you hoped for. You will likely be blocked for this behavior. --Tarage (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm confused. So this guy edit wars like mad for months, gets called out (in this thread!) by admins for it, and I'll be blocked because I drew attention to the problem behavior and harassment by another user? And he's... free to edit war and harass? 21:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptainYuge (talk • contribs)
    Considering you don't seem to understand that your version of events conflicts with pretty much everyone else who's looking at this's thoughts, I'm doubting you are going to understand. The more you throw a tantrum, the quicker you will be blocked. This will not end well for you. --Tarage (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    You're wrong. Jytdog blanked the article to a stub. I found it. I restored a small subset of the sourced content and he began edit warring within minutes over my edits. He demonstrated on the talk page that he has a "personal" standard for what counts as encycloepdiac content, stating outright that he won't allow things in the article that fail to meet "real world impact" standards. I asked for assistance about his edit warring in response to that, as he is operating off of his own personal standards, and refused to cite what if any policies backed up his position. What exactly in the timeline have I missed? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:32, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • CaptainYuge has exploded this into some huge drama in their head, very rapidly, and is not discussing in a simple way, the content they disagree about on the article Talk page. They are doing everything but that. Which makes this all feel strangely familiar. Jytdog (talk) 21:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What drama? You are edit warring like mad and ordering people on the page not to include content unless they can demonstrate it shows evidence of a "real world impact", even if it's heavily cited. You are literally edit warring that nothing be included in the article unless your own personal standard that the content has to have some arbitrary 'real world application' is met. Which policy backs that position, exactly? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Would you please return to the article Talk page and start working through specific content/sourcing that you believe should be in the article? That would be great. Just simply, one at a time. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I think I will first call upon you to cite the specific policy you are using to justify months of edit warring first as part of dispute resolution. Please cite the policy or recuse yourself on all accounts under your control from that article. CaptainYuge (talk) 22:18, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    By refusing to use the talk page to discuss edits, you are setting yourself up to be blocked. --Tarage (talk) 22:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    See my 22:32, 15 March 2016 (UTC) edit here. I am perfectly willing to discuss any content based on actual accepted policies here. Jytdog is refusing to cite which policies justify ANY of his removals of content. CaptainYuge (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Call me skeptical, but the filer is a brand new account that made a serious of large and complicated edits immediately after registering and knows about various noticeboards... No comment on jytdog's behavior, but CaptainYuge's is a bit suspicious. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I told jytdog I edited for years on and off by IP. I finally made an account because why not? CaptainYuge (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not necessarily. The CU report at the SPI said that CaptainYuge has another account -- which the CU didn't name -- which was apparently not being used in violation of WP:SOCK. Now that the Captain Yuge account has announced its retirement, perhaps the CU, @DeltaQuad:, might say what the name of the second account is, in case the editor decides to use it to continue what CaptainYuge began? BMK (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That constitutes a personal attack, does it not? --Tarage (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    For when that gave the wrong result, I see that you've already opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CaptainYuge. When did WP:B-R-SPI become such a popular policy? 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 20:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    According to CaptainYuge, they "Decided to join after years of anonymously helping...".[31] CaptainYuge stated "I told jytdog I edited for years on and off by IP. I finally made an account because why not? "[32] But it has been confirmed that "CaptainYuge does have a second account".[33] QuackGuru (talk) 16:01, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The two sets of statements are not necessarily contradictory, as the two accounts could have been created at the same time. BMK (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    My reading of Yuge's comments and DeltaQuad's admirable "there is no problem" silence was that this other account was created after this business kicked off, but before the technical SPI/CU. Yet despite this, we still have ongoing sniping and veiled personal attacks like these: [34] [35] from Jytdog. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And still continuing, "Everybody (with the exception of CaptianYuge) from the RepRap community" Andy Dingley (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Some thoughts

    I've mixed feelings about this, because, looking at the previous versions of the article in question, I understand the concerns regarding promotion that seems to to have motivated Jytdog here. That being said, this looks like a pretty obvious WP:BRD issue to me. This slow moving edit war of the last couple of weeks seems to have started when Jytdog removed nearly 34k of content at once, 30k in one edit. Pretty much every person who has responded to this issue on the talk page regards that as excessive. Now, A) they might largely be COI editors, and B) Jytdog might actually have the right of the content issue here, depending on his policy rationale, numbers aligned against him not withstanding. But, under BRD, because the content in question was part of a longterm stable version of the article (and especially given the boldness of removing so much content at once) the revert should have stood until such time that Jytdog had secured an unambiguous WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. As the party trying to effect a bold change to a stable version of an article, the burden is upon him to secure that consensus, especially in light of objection from every other voice on the talk page (even be that only four editors). If he, or any party, has concerns about the personal involvement/objectivity of editors working in that space, RfC can always be used to solicit additional outside voices. I think the average experienced editor is probably likely to side with Jytdog, or at least fall somewhere in the middle of the two positions but probably closer to Jytdog (as is the case with me), but A) a fuller consensus is still needed here rather than constant back-and-forth reverts or else this is, by definition, an edit war and B) I think some additional experienced editors might be able to put the issues into terms that might better satisfy the concerns of the regulars on that talk page.

    Lastly, while I have questions about CaptainYuge's motivation in all of this (after recent events, I won't exactly be gobsmacked if the latest SPI shows a link between him and Rowssusan), I do agree in principle that this discussion ought to be handled in a more WP:CIVIL manner. I understand that Jytdog may be frustrated, but in my opinion, it is never appropriate to swear for emphasis in edit summaries; if nothing else it undermines the ability of other editors to assume that the party using this language is contributing with the calm we expect, and which makes arguments most compelling. Calling another editor's good-faith contributions "rank bullshit" is just never appropriate; there's always got to be a better--that is, more accurate, specific, and collegial--way to describe the shortcomings in the material. Let's remember that most of this material represents the collaborative efforts of a significant number of editors doing their best to present this topic accurately. Those are my thoughts over this dispute; in short, substantial support for Jytdog's position, but a general sense that he could fine-tune his approach to opposition in this instance. Snow let's rap 00:14, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    No arguments from me. Jytdog (talk) 00:41, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    According to Arbcom and the current consensus of the administrative corps in general, it is perfectly OK (for favoured editors/admins) to swear at other editors, call them cunts, call them trolls and tell them to fuck off, and have no absolutely no repercussions despite years of incivility. As repeat offenders blocked or dragged before arbcom get let off with not even a slapped wrist, opinining that it is 'inappropriate to swear in edit summaries' is both naive and factually incorrect with the current crop of administrators. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:28, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Normally, $20... for you, about 20K  ;) Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What about $37.50 and some French postcards? BMK (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Only in death: - I doubt that's a true statement. Swearing directly at other users in edit summaries could definitely be considered as a WP:NPA violation and be treated with consequences. Could you please cite what led you to believe that making personal attacks at other users is perfectly fine? Thanks, — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 07:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Take a look at Arbcom declined cases or archived discussions at AN. See prolific uncivil editors being unblocked after less than 24 hours by their pet admins. One of the current Arbs stated in a recent rejected case that the 'community was not clear on defining civility.' There are at least 3 standing policies and one of the pillars that state civility is required, yet because current arbcom members dont want to sanction their favoured subjects (why antagonise someone who voted for you/will vote for you in the future) they make idiotic statements like that. The 'community' is clear on how civility should be treated. Its enforcement by admins and Arbcom means the reality is very different. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Except that it is notoriously difficult to define "civility" or, for that matter, "community". Am I not part of the community? people don't just magically change when they become admins or arbs, and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it's only friends of the apparently uncivil editors you refer to who get voted into admindom or arbdom. Chances are, their enemies get elected too, who should then, mutatis mutandis, be more than eager to block their Most Hated Editors. Drmies (talk) 15:33, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Notoriously difficult only in your head. Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks, Wikipedia:Five_pillars (there are others but those are the important oneS) are all current active policies which to call yourself a community member you are expected to agree with and abide by. They clearly, in plain English describe what is and is not acceptable. Admins/Arbcom members like yourself who outright *refuse* to take action or enforce said policies are why the current actual situation is that civility is an unenforcable joke. You personally are part of the problem and you should be ashamed for continuing to state that it cant be defined. It has already been defined, read the policies. While you continue to deny them, you are activly enabling the decline in civil discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Drmies is always part of every problem.
    OID, I assume you're not dead yet, so why haven't you fulfilled your duty and stood for admin? Could it be because with only 2,373 edits in over 4 years, only 270 of which are to articles (11.4%), while 1,335 (56.3%) are to Wikipediaspace, you're really not here to improve the encyclopedia (our sole purpose for existence), but instead to bitch and moan about whatever "crosses your eyeline"? Your complaints about lack of civility would carry a lot more weight if you were actually a productive editor and not a free rider. BMK (talk) 17:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I just looked in on this and was surprised to see this thread still alive. @Omni Flames: and @Only in death does duty end: To be clear, I did not "swear directly at anyone" in the edit note or elsewhere. Calling content "promotional" or "rank bullshit" is different from saying "you are a fucking asshole", in an edit note or anywhere else. I am not saying that it was appropriate for me to be a vulgarian in an edit note - it was not, and it got in the way of working on content which is the point of CIVIL - but what you are talking about is different from what I did here. Jytdog (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jytdog: Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. Perhaps you should've acted in a more calm and WP:CIVIL way, because calling another editors content "rank bullshit" is not appropriate, but I agree that it wasn't a personal attack. — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 21:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No one, including me, has, or has had, any argument with that. Jytdog (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that's pretty much exactly why I felt denying attention was the way to handle Only in Death's comment, because it felt like the discussion had achieved the most it was going to get, which is to say, a tacit agreement from everyone to move on try to be more careful, even if nobody was jumping to apologize to one-another, which is pretty good as these things go. That's why I found OID's comment unproductive. It's not a matter of whether he's right or just grousing out of cluelessness, and it's not a matter of whether he has enough contributions to warrant an opinion on these matters. It's that it didn't belong here and wasn't doing any good. I almost said as much insofar as his comment was nominally addressed at something I said--though in truth it was obviously just a way to shoehorn in a complaint into another discussion--but I realized it would just be a waste of more time (this waste of time, specifically).
    If OID thinks he's the only one who has felt like ArbCom has passed on some cases they probably shouldn't have since the last election, I daresay he's wrong, but using a thread reserved for practical purposes as a platform to attack admins broadly is just WP:SOAPBOX and frankly just dragging drama into one of those few ANI threads that didn't end with either A) a sanction or B) the community just generally exhausted and sending both sides to their corner. Besides, the kind of sanction that is most likely here is one that is decided by community resolution, not admins or ArbCom. And honestly, I think its pretty ballsy for OID to come this forum and bitch about how low our standards are concerning civility; all things considered, he's pretty lucky we aren't more strict about behaviour of that sort, considering most of us take implying that another editor is a sex offender more seriously than we do those who curse at eachother (though I find both to be well short of the behaviour expected here, personally). Let's close this and move on. Snow let's rap 07:51, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    For 'practical purposes' pretending civility is actionable anymore is a lie with no basis in the current administrative or arbcom enforced environment. Any actual blocks against repeat offenders are quickly overturned, if anyone takes action in the first place. But frankly if you wanted to keep a thread 'reserved for practical purposes' you shouldn't have labelled it 'some thoughts' and filled it with worthless and misleading pontificating. If you don't want people to comment on your proclamations, keep them to yourself. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The difference between my post and yours OID (aside from general tone and the way they have been received) is that my comments were focused on the matter at hand. The purpose of this thread (and this noticeboard) is to address specific behavioural issues, not leverage a discussion as excuse to vent out polemic screed just to make your general dissatisfaction with the administration corps known. We can (and on a daily basis do) hand out sanctions in this space. But even better is when we manage to use it to resolve a conflict short of that, which is what was going on here at the time you decided to interject your tangent--which was just basically random bad-faith directed at parties we weren't even talking about. You want to see more people banned for incivility in general, we get it. But what we had here was a situation where we weren't going to ban anyone and the editors in question had both backed off. There was even a certain amount of owning up to how things could have been done better, and it takes strength of character to do that.
    It should have been allowed to end there--and would have, if not for your need to tell us all how things should be done... And frankly, I think it is a giant pity that everyone didn't just ignore you to show just how helpful we view that kind of thing. Except for Drmies...their response was the perfect study in how to disarm random criticism with real wit. But I'm not Drmies, so I'll just say WP:DROPTHESTICK and if you really have problems with the way blocks are used in general, take it to any one of the dozens of heavily-trafficked central community discussion spaces where such an abstract discussion might be useful (or at least more appropriate). Or, as BMK says, get some more in-depth experience of the project and RfA yourself. But don't expect random hijacks of ANI threads for the purposes soapboxing to go over well even if you somehow end up with a mop... Snow let's rap 09:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Borders around infobox images by Illegitimate Barrister

    Illegitimate Barrister has been placing the "{{!}}border" in infobox images for years.

    I first contact him and asked about this in March, 2015 here. His response seemed to take no consideration of the errors I mentioned and he just stated he thinks it makes the image look better. Less than 1 minute later he deleted my question.

    He continued to add the "{{!}}border" to images in infoboxes, and I made another comment on his page 4 days later telling him of the errors it causes and that it not only prevents images from showing up on mouseovers, it causes script errors. His response was an accusation of me stalking and harassing him, and he deleted everything again less than 1 minute later. He still continued to add the border to infobox images, and I pleaded with him one more time, stating I would take this here(to ANI). His response was the same, and also stated he would take the issue here, before deleting the thread once again within 1 minute. But this time he seemed to stop adding the border to images. Another editor complained about this also on his Talk page, which he responded to with much the same reasoning(he likes it, no big deal).

    I have occasionally ran into the same problems(seeing the border and removing it) over the last year, but not with the frequency. Now the editor has once again begun adding the border en masse, and I frustratingly gave the editor a 'Final warning'.

    After each of complaints, the editor just makes smart ass replies and then deletes the thread within 1 minute. He did state for me to find some policy which forbids him from adding this, which I am sure there must be. I don't know where they are located. Bgwhite seems to run some script that fixes the error in this edit, but I have no idea what it is. Can an administrator please get this editor to stop doing this? It not only causes mouseover errors, it screws up the page on my mobile device. Dave Dial (talk) 02:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC).[reply]

    Well, I am sadly not surprised that it has come to this. This is a complete and utter disgraceful waste of time. No violation of MOS was committed here; Davey just doesn't like my edits. So be it. But, his arbitrary feelings on my edits do not automatically constitute Wikipedia policy and he has yet to point to one MOS tenet that had been violated.

    Davey charges that I am breaking the rules. I deny it; and what is his proof? Davey have yet to properly implicate me and point to one MOS tenet that has been violated. If I did violate the MOS, Davey knows it or Davey does not know it. If Davey does know it, Davey is inexcusable for not designating the MOS tenet that has been broken and proving the fact. If Davey does not know it, Davey is inexcusable for asserting it, and especially for persisting in the assertion after Davey has tried and failed to make the proof. Davey needs to be told that persisting in a charge which one does not know to be true, is simply malicious slander.

    Before he disgracefully posted this ANI, I specifically told Davey in compromise that were he to point out the MOS tenet that I allegedly broke, I would cease the editing that he didn't like and that such hypothetical tenet supposedly banned. But he has yet to do so, and may I say that I suppose strongly that it is because it does not exist. Had he pointed out to me the MOS tenet that I allegedly broke, I would have stopped, and we wouldn't be here. But, of course, he didn't. Such is dishonesty.

    The ANI is not a tool for getting your way by making your arbitrary feelings law. The will of the sovereign is not law. You don't like my edits. Too bad. I don't like many other peoples' edits either. But I don't threaten them into submission and abuse the ANI to get my way. If any rule was broken here, it was by Davey, who stalked and threatened me.

    P.S. As for "smart-ass replies", you're the one who came up to me with hostility numerous times and stalked and threatened me. Yet you feign surprise when I object to being stalked and threatened! Such arrogance! No other users have aggressively came up to me with any concern over my editing in this matter. If you're hostile to me, I will reciprocate in kind. If you treat me with dignity, I will do the same. You've got to give respect to earn it. I've been on Wikipedia far too long to passively sit back and take B.S. like yours, and judging by the vitriol on Davey's talk page, he doesn't seem keen on getting along with other users and treating them with respect either. Oh, and I didn't "delete" the messages. That's a bald-faced lie. I don't have the ability to delete edits anyway as I am not an administrator. I simply archived them. And edits you disagree with are not "vandalism", no matter how much you may want them to be labelled as such. – Illegitimate Barrister, 04:51, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    If there isn't already something in the MOS about image borders in general and/or for infobox image borders, maybe someone start an RFC. Infoboxes could easily be coded to allow for image borders. Adding {{!}}border is not how you go about it, especially if it causes an error. As a WP:Template editor, you should know better. If you want to be able to use borders on infobox images, I suggest that you start an RFC on VPR to get consensus for updating the various infobox templates. — JJMC89 (T·C) 05:47, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. That's precisely how this should have been handled, instead of immaturely going straight to ANI. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk), 05:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    There's been plenty of time to handle it this way, as evidenced above. Your response is a concerning display of incivility and failure to acknowledge what the complaint here actually is. You claim you're being stalked and harassed because "Davey" simply doesn't like your edits. However he appears to explain perfectly reasonably how your edits are introducing a technical problem. That certainly constitutes more than "I don't like it". Both here and in the responses he's linked to, you're completely dismissive of this fact because "you're not breaking any rules". That may or may not be the case, but regardless most people would consider aesthetic edits that introduce technical errors to be unconstructive, negative additions, and your responses to be sub-par to what we expect in a collaborative project. I will also note that "I'm not breaking any rules" is not a reason to continue to make contested edits. We don't operate according to "rules", but according to consensus. When conflicts arise, you need to discuss and seek consensus, not brush off concerns and "archive" discussions after a minute. I don't know why this would be any different. You're a highly established editor in good standing and you should be above this. Swarm ♠ 05:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Illegitimate Barrister: - This didn't go "straight to ANI". I have been asking you to stop inserting the border script for over a year. All I wanted you to do was realize that it was causing errors and stop adding it. If you are acknowledging that you realize this and are going to stop adding the "{{!}}border" script, then I have no further issues with you. I just don't understand why it has taken this long. Contested edits need consensus, is one such policy. I don't know a lot about MOS, but thought since you are an editor that is helping with the project, you would receive my letting you know the script was causing errors in a better manner. Dave Dial (talk) 13:32, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Illegitimate Barrister does say on his TP... "if I've made a mistake somewhere, which we're all bound to do at some point, you can bring it to my attention so I can better rectify it." This is not, it seems, the case. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 13:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Illegitimate Barrister: - "If any rule was broken here, it was by Davey, who stalked and threatened me." - do you have any diffs to support this? - theWOLFchild 18:39, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Obvious solution: Narrow topic-ban from bordering images

    • Given the "slow-editwar", WP:ICANTHEARYOU, and who-cares-if-I'm-breaking-things nature of Illegitimate Barrister's behavior, and the obvious fact that this is an ongoing WP:ILIKEIT-and-I-will-never-stop stylization campaign by a self-righteous and alarmingly hostile single party against all comers, a narrow topic ban from bordering images is clearly in order.

      This is pretty simple:

      • If someone is doing something that is breaking stuff, they have to stop; if they won't voluntarily, the behavior must be curtailed by the community.
      • If someone is doing something stylistically unusual and people object to it, and the editor keeps on doing it without establishing consensus, they are making a mistake, even if no technical problems are involved.
      • If someone keeps on doing it for years, they're making more than a mistake, but a disruptive mess, and demonstrating an inability or refusal to work collaboratively.
      • It's wikilawyering and system-gaming to try to exploit as an imagined loophole the fact that one of the 47 billion things MoS doesn't specifically address is what this editor is doing; this is not about MOS at all, it's about consensus and competence (of at least two sorts).
    At Mediawiki:Common.css you'll find that making changes to any facet of how WP is rendered is very difficult to get consensus for without lots of cross-platform testing. There's no way there's consensus for running around forcing 1997-style bordered images all over WP, especially when people have been objecting for so long.

    "MOS doesn't say I can't so you can't stop me" is not how things work here, per WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY; our guidelines only address common problems, not one-editor issues (that's what our behavioral noticeboards like this one are for).
    PS: Repeatedly asking someone to stop doing something that doesn't have consensus and appears to be tendentious (as well as destructive in this case) is not "harassment", it's standard operating procedure.
    PPS: The technical problem underlying this should be raised at WP:VPTECH for resolution, but even if there were no tech problem, IB's behavior would still be exactly the same problems it is. We should probably also update WP:USERTALK to discourage the insta-nuking of all things anyone ever posts to one's talk page, as anti-collaborative and uncivil.
     — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Continuous disruptive editing Radegast (god)

    Chupito persistently changes the (unsourced) content with his version (also unsourced). At the end of 2014, he restored a 2011 version of the article and keeps adding unsourced info from that version. At that time, I summarized the problem on the article's talk page, tried to show the problem in my edit summaries, and warned chupito several times that his edits are disruptive. For lack/unawareness of better templates used vandalism templates on his talk page. He had stopped adding the changes in early 2015 but now he started again.

    I do not know what to do, reverting does not solve the problem. However, his unsourced content is misleading and as such I have to keep removing it or let the article be. Unfortunately, I did not have time to improve the article using proper sources, so I tried to maintain the status quo. The latest change: diff but a more profound inspection is needed. Thanks for help, --WikiHannibal (talk) 13:02, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • This looks like a minor dispute over content to me, with a lack of talk page discussion but, first and foremost, a lack of actual sourcing to fight over. Both of you claim that this or that is unsourced, but neither of you seem to be citing anything. Now, on pages 49-50 of this book I find the claim that Radegast is "well-documented"--why don't you two go prove it? And don't forget to search for alternate spellings. Did any of you order a copy of The Gods of the Ancient Slavs. Tatishchev and the Beginnings of Slavic Mythology by Myroslava T. Znayenko, reviewed here? And if not, can you please do so? Carry on, Drmies (talk) 15:22, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for looking into it. However, that's that or can I expect another administrator to help and look into the issue? I wrote that I don't have time to improve the article with proper sources and you suggest precisly that. In 2014 Cupito restored the 2011 version, users Jirka.h23 and Volunteer Marek reverted it before I got involved. But after that it was only me reverting. My point was, and is, not to use (parts of) the 2011 version, because the 2014 version had been tacitly approved by many editors (2011-2014), and was without discussion changed by Chupito in 2014. WikiHannibal (talk) 16:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, we could accuse Chupito of slow edit warring, but such would apply to you as well, given that both versions are woefully underreferenced and thus the claim of OR cuts both ways. I cannot see from here which version is better, which version is to be preferred, who's inserting more OR than the other. Maybe Volunteer Marek can help out, but his revert was in 2014, and what he reverted was clearly OR ("There are several arguments which indicate that the first explanation is the correct one. As already stated, ..."--that's OR); the recent reverts do not involve such language. Surely in the last two years you could have found some time to improve the article. Drmies (talk) 17:15, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe that if there is an unsourced edit that is considered controversial (as I consider Chupito's edits), the normal way is to keep the article as it was (until a compromise can be reached/other editors got involved) because that text has been approved by previous users. Am I wrong? Persistently adding unsourced content which is challenged is what? And, to correct, I did not introduce any OR to the article, I just tried to maintain the previous version. I did not ask you or anybody to decide which version is better. (BTW the book you mentioned is on Vasily Tatishchev's 18th century study, not on slavic mythology per se, and his views are "of little value to the historian or folklorist", to quote another review by Perkewski in Slavic Review. Sourcing the article is more complicated than you think, which Lemongirl942 already started to find out. So, to answer your previous question, I do not think I will order it.) WikiHannibal (talk) 03:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    (Non-Admin Comment) I was just looking over and found some sources including this [36]. Will post more of them on the talk page of the article. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Lemongirl942, thanks, but one of the problems with Google Books was that I found mostly book sources from the 1800s and early 1900s, and in many cases they are just not scientifically acceptable. Some of those are by scientists and historians; what your link is pointing to is a footnote in the 12-volume epic poem Attila or the Triumph of Christianity (1838) by William Herbert (botanist). Drmies (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Dealt with by Swarm. Any further legal threats or appearances thereof should be reported here with mention of this previous report. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    See edit summaries in Checkingtheweb's contributions (specifically, this and this). Reporting threats here per WP:NLT. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:01, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    User has been notified of this ANI thread. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:03, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes but can we check WP:DOLT? He appears to be contesting a date of birth. Is he right there?--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Malcolmxl5 - Good question. Let me take a look and get back to you. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:21, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Having the wrong birthday for someone isn't something that any court of law would ever take seriously as an actionable libel or slander complaint in and of itself — it's a minor and easily corrected error with no reputational consequences whatsoever, so no court of law would ever do anything but dismiss it as a frivolous complaint. I have, for the record, removed the disputed birthdate from the article on the grounds that it's not properly supported — if you have to rely on an old archived version of a source for information that's been removed from the current version of that same source, then you need to keep in mind that "it was wrong" just might be the reason it was removed, and the source failed to support 1985 as the subject's year of birth. And I've also already politely advised the editor to adjust their attitude. So for the moment I'd consider this resolved, although we should certainly keep an eye on it if it flares up again. Bearcat (talk) 18:25, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Why is your post sprinkled so generously with italics? EEng 20:28, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, Bearcat you beat me to it. I was just removing the same information that you did; there is no year on the birthdate provided by the source, and I could find no reliable reference containing an exact date of birth, so I (well, Bearcat...) removed it from the article. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:30, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've restored the previous version which was reliably sourced and I see no particular reason to remove the information. Based on this user's own edits to that very page, they don't particularly have any idea what they're talking about and I see no reason we should grant their word any special weight. The year of birth was added after the fact by an inexperienced editor—this is certainly no reason to blank the entire page. Also, please remember we issue NLT blocks as a matter of policy, not based on our interpretation of how credible said threats are. If any semblance of a legal threat persists from this user, I will be indefinitely blocking their account. Regards, Swarm ♠ 01:22, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Laura Branigan birth date, and birth place

    Overall, the issue is official source verus user edited sources. Ultimately, the users Born53 swe and Thomas.W are using user submitted references to prove a different birth date and birth place. The official website for the singer is being ignored for this. There is a lot to read at this point and much of it in the last day. I have tried once to correct the birth date and place and got reverted. Reading over the talk page, it goes into other languages, and weird conspiracies about her age at death.

    Overall, the issue is her birth date. Official website says July 3, 1957. She was born in Brewster, New York. Descending view is July 3, 1952 in Mount Kisco, New York. Devilmanozzy (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Devilmanozzy - Have you discussed your concerns on the article's talk page, or with these editors on their talk page? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I found this article [37] which quotes "one superfan" who supports the 1952 date. And then I had a look at the talk page of the article. Seems like a WP:COI. (I am not providing a diff since I don't want to violate WP:OUTING, although the editor in question has voluntarily provided the name). --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict)This is ridiculous. See User talk:Diannaa#Laura Branigan for more information, and page history of Laura Branigan for previous disruption, disruption going back several years and severe enough to result in several blocks last year, and protection of the article on and off for the past several years. Laura Branigan's former manager (editing as User:Vince-OHE, formerly named "Other Half Entertainment" and with self-proclaimed COI, and also editing as many IPs), claims it's 1957 but has provided no independent sources for it, only his own website and sources that obviously got the infornation from there, while other editors, including User:Born53 swe, claim it's 1952, and have made a much more convincing case than the manager. It is in ther words a content dispute, and as such does not belong on ANI. Thomas.W talk 19:43, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that this is a content dispute and such discussion belongs on the article's talk page, not in an ANI. Devilmanozzy, please create a discussion on the article's talk page (if you haven't already done so), so that the issue can be discussed and resolved properly. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 19:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Oshwah, I really don't know what to do. I usually edit at wikia, which has none of this. I am here to correct a birth date a birth place to a singer from a soundtrack to a movie I care about. Devilmanozzy (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Devilmanozzy - There are other editors that have issues with the date that you're trying to add to the article, as well as the source that you're trying to use to support the change. You need to properly discuss these concerns by navigating to the article's talk page and creating a discussion to resolve it. If another editor has already created a discussion, you will want to respond to it and discuss the issue with them and address their concerns. Once a consensus is reached, the article can be modified (or kept at the status quo) in order to reflect that consensus. In order to allow this ANI discussion to be closed for archiving (this issue does not belong on this noticeboard), please respond on my talk page with any additional questions or concerns that you may have. I'll be happy to assist you there. :-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 22:17, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Dweller opened up a section about getting links. (Talk:Laura Branigan#Trying to help resolve the birth year issue) Is that what is needed? Devilmanozzy (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)"Other Half Entertainment" have behaved as if they own the article about Laura Branigan for ten years now, see this post from July 2006 on Talk:Laura Branigan, where they claim to have the right to control what's in the Wikipedia article, it is also complicated by there being two "official websites", laurabraniganonline.com, owned by Other Half Entertainment, and laurabranigan.com, owned by someone else, fighting over which site is the official one. So all of it is one big mess... Thomas.W talk 20:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The reason I brought this down here was because I was unable to organize a discussion on this due to how Thomas has been reacting to what I brought to the article. It is confusing to come to an article ruled by one point of view. After finding a ongoing battle starting up, I asked for help. Now it seems that the discussion is now in progress. Hopefully the outcome will be respected. Devilmanozzy (talk) 22:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SMcCandlish: In an ideal world where everything is simple, yes, but in this case the subject of the article passed away twelve years ago, leaving two official websites that AFAIK still haven't been able to settle the dispute about which one of them is the official website, since both of them still claim that they're the real official one, making them nothing more than fansites. And WP:ABOUTSELF can hardly apply in this case since the information isn't about themselves, i.e. the site and its owners (Laura Branigan's former manager), but about Laura Branigan. WP:ABOUTSELF also says that self-published sources aren't allowed if there is reasonable doubt as to its authenticity, which I feel there is since Laura Branigan is dead and can neither confirm nor deny anything that is said on either of the two "official websites". Thomas.W talk 00:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why would an alleged "official" site not created by her manager be considered legit? I.e., if Branigan trusted the manger to run the site while alive, that would appear to make that the official site, well, officially, absent any evidence that the manager went nutso after she died and made weird changes. If it was ABOUTSELF-worthy before she died, it wouldn't be suddenly unreliable the day after she did, absent evidence of post-death shenanigans at the site. I can right this minute go create a third "official" Laura Branigan website but WP would have reason to take that seriously, so why are we taking seriously the claims of officialness by another site that isn't by her staff? I agree that the manager ("former manager" is kinda POV, suggesting he was terminated) acting OWNy here is a COI problem, but that's unrelated to whether the external source maintained for Branigan then and now by this person has somehow become unreliable and unofficial and not more reliable than a fansite just because she's died or because the manager is being too proprietary here. If anything, it seems like the manager is trying to be protective; it's not like he's some vandal. Anyway, if we don't want to trust either site, just say the birthdate is disputed, cite them both in once ref as example primary sources demonstrating that different dates are claimed, and leave it at that until more sources are found.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  01:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible WP:COMPETENCY issue

    While on NPP, I came across an article created by

    shMaterinski jezik ovoga korisnika je srpskohrvatski.
    Матерњи језик овога корисника је хрватскосрпски.
    hr-4Ovaj suradnik hrvatski razumije kao da mu je materinski jezik.
    en-4This user can contribute with a near-native level of English.
    sr-4Овај корисник течно говори српски језик.
    Ovaj korisnik tečno govori srpski jezik.
    bs-4Ovaj korisnik tečno govori bosanski.
    mk-2Корисникот средно зборува македонски.
    sl-2Uporabnik srednje dobro govori slovenščino.
    de-2Dieser Benutzer hat fortgeschrittene Deutschkenntnisse.
    la-1Hic usor simplici latinitate contribuere potest.
    This user is a member of the Cooperatives WikiProject.
    This user is a participant in WikiProject Women in Red (redlinks→blue)
    My sandbox

    I am reading and writing mostly in English and sometimes editing English Wikipedia also.

    My focus are content gaps and marginalized knowledge.

    When able I inform local WikiProjects of my positions and experiences, but that to use Meta more., which consisted of the following [38]. Seemingly done in good faith, but malformed and incorrect. They have had an account here since roughly 2002, but only started editing around 2011, making about 15 edits per year. They seem to have some trouble understanding how to properly create and format articles, have created several articles that have been speedied over the years, and have never responded to a comment on their talk page. There have also been some copyvios [39] and articles tagged as promotional. After they created the New Society for Visual Arts at NGBK, I redirected it, did a quick translation and improved the article... their last edit to the article was this [40]. I suspect they mean well, but lack WP:COMPETENCY. Kindzmarauli (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    It is much more simple - I moved it to sandbox as I wanted to edit it in better form and more punctual info. Also as current (English) title of the page is not at all official name of the organization (they only use nGbK in English - never translate or expand it - check original web EN pages)... Zblace (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This is what I mean. You didn't move it to your sandbox, you turned the existing article into an unreferenced single-sentence, than you apparently copied and pasted it into your sandbox. We use English titles on the English Wikipedia, not German ones. The page you created initially wasn't an article at all, it was some sort of unreferenced sentence with a bare URL to an article on the German Wikipedia. The things you're doing here, though you may be well-intentioned, are creating a mess that people then have to clean up. Kindzmarauli (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The user has also attempted to add the entry to a dab page repeatedly. He's been warned twice by myself, subsequently resorting to personal attacks. It's unfortunate. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:22, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I just removed a whole pile of unsourced POV edits fromthe article added by the IP 91.22.131.126, which would clearly seem to be the same editor. I believe a block on the editor in question is in order. BMK (talk) 14:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Application of WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS

    Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) has closed an RfC at talk:Mayan languages talk:Maya civilization in favor of a minority viewpoint held by 3 editors against 9 editors citing WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS. As I understand this policy, it is only to be applied in cases where the majority argument clearly violates a policy, and also it seems only to apply to admin closures in AfD discussions? Is this a valid and reasonable application of the policy on rough consensus?--·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:32, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    He does specifically this RFC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoshVorlon (talk • contribs) 20:31, 17 March 2016‎
    As to where to discuss, see Wikipedia:Closing discussions#Challenging_other_closures. As I explain there and on my talk page, the issue is whether I misread what Yes and No meant in the original question. I did see 9 No and 3 Yes !votes as a rough consensus for No. I moved this thread to WP:AN, and User:Maunus has reverted my deletion here, but the properly placed closure review is still at WP:AN. I'll leave it up to an uninvolved admin to close this thread here because WP:AN is a better forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No, my question is about the correct application of the policy WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS - it is not a formal closure review. This is an appropriate place to discuss this. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:12, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm confused. You asked if this particular RFC closure was a correct application of a guideline, yet you say you don't want to challenge the closure. We can't do the first without looking at the second. Or do you want us to go around in bureaucratic circles for a while until someone does challenge the closure? Katietalk 00:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    There are two separate questions. One is the application of the policy - this has broad implications. Then there is the specific case of the RfC closure, which it would only make sense to challenge if the policy has been applied incorrectly.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:21, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Maunus: I'm not sure what "policy" you're referring to. There is quite simply no policy. WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS is actually part of the deletion guidelines which don't apply to this situation at all. The actual policy on consensus says nothing remotely akin to what you describe; it actually makes no mention of "rough consensus" at all. You may be surprised to learn that there is no policy or guideline on closing discussions in general or the application of rough consensus. WP:RFC simply says RfCs can be closed by any uninvolved editor and directs you to WP:CLOSE for more information on formal closure. WP:CLOSE actually says the desired standard is rough consensus. So, in sum, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with Robert's closure. If you dispute his reading of consensus, then of course there are ways to appeal, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with reading a "rough consensus" and there never has been. Swarm ♠ 01:41, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Swarm:. You see nothing wrong with closing a discussion in which 9 people !vote no and 3 people !vote yes as "yes" without saying why the 3 peoples argument is considered stronger than the 9? How is that a "rough consensus"? So when can I go to an Rfc with 9 against 3 and close it in agreement with the 3 and claim "rough consensus" with no further argument? If there is no policy on "rough consensus" that aplies outside of deletion discussions then RObert McClenon misapplied the guideline since he used it as support for disregarding the majority argument.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 03:48, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Maunus: You asked a specific question above regarding "the correct application of the policy". I merely answered your question by clarifying that this aspect isn't an issue—there is no rule regarding rough consensus of any sort. Beyond that, I'm not sure why you're not understanding Robert's replies. He clearly states above that he did see a consensus for "no" and intended to side with them. He explained both here and on his talk page that he may have simply misunderstood what the "no"s meant and has offered to revise the close if he misinterpreted them. In the RfC, "no" meant do not omit the repetition. It appears he simply took them to mean do not repeat. Given the double-negative involved, it seems an easy enough mistake to make and all that's required here is a revised closing comment. I was able to deduce this by his reply on his talk page. It appears you were so caught up on the perceived injustice, you overlooked the fact that he made an honest mistake that is easily fixed. Swarm ♠ 04:19, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What I had said was the 9 Nos and 3 Yeses was a rough consensus for No. If I misunderstood which position was Yes and which position was No, then my close was incorrect, not because of any confusion about ROUGHCONSENSUS, but because of a misunderstanding. If so, I would suggest that this thread be closed as in the wrong forum, and reopened or refiled at WP:AN. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:26, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly what I was trying to explain. You misinterpreted the "no" position resulting in a mistaken closing comment opposite of the actual consensus. No big deal. We merely need someone to revise the closing comment and the issue is resolved... Swarm ♠ 04:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I would be fine with that, although I find it hard to believe that Robert McClenon did not realize that his closing comment was in agreement with the three yes !votes and against the 9 no votes, since the rationale in fact repeats the phrasing of the yes votes, and in no way seems to mistake yes and no. But if Robert McClenon acknowledges the closing was an error, then he can certainly revise the close himself to fit the consensus, or undo it and let someone else do the closing. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:09, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I've posted to his talk page asking him to do this as it's been almost 24 hours. Doug Weller talk 07:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    He's reversed his close, and I re-closed it as consensus to keep the two words in the title. Hope that buttons this one up. Katietalk 14:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:Brian Martin (social scientist) : other editor is feeling stalked/harassed. And is also attacking me.

    Help Desk refered me here. As Gongwool [41] is feeling harassed and stalked I think it better to discuss resolutions with others present. On BLP WP:Brian Martin (social scientist)[42] I am getting attacked and Gongwool is feeling stalked/harassed.

    Gongwool is refusing to discuss edits with me. Rather Gongwool posted their discussion to an admin's page without notifying me. [43]

    I have made the mistake of addressing user conduct on theBLP Talk page.

    • Examples of SmithBlue addressing user conduct on talk page: [44], [45], [46], [47]
    • Examples of attacks by Gongwool and Gongwool feeling harrased :WP:Brian Martin Talk page:

    Accuses SmithBlue of CoI:[48], Accusation of Harrassment and DE, statement of no further comms.[49], Claims SmithBlue wishes to "whitewash" the article and has a CoI: [50]

    • Examples of attacks, feeling stalked and harrased, noncivil and accusatory edit sums:
    • 07:06, 9 February 2016‎ Gongwool (talk | contribs)‎ . . (7,122 bytes) (+78)‎ . . (Fixed para due to complaining IP editor.)
    • 05:29, 15 March 2016‎ Gongwool (talk | contribs)‎ . . (11,733 bytes) (+427)‎ . . (Add text from book as I was being from agro editor not practicing Good Faith.)
    • 05:55, 15 March 2016‎ Gongwool (talk | contribs)‎ . . (11,799 bytes) (+66)‎ . . (Added 2 more references to hopefully stop agro from an editor.)
    • 23:16, 17 March 2016‎ Gongwool (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,680 bytes) (+658)‎ . . (Undid revision 710599623 by SmithBlue (talk) It is WP:RS Science news journal. Sorry, I don't discuss with this stalky editor due to his prior harassment. So won't engage in his silly arguments.)
    • 23:45, 17 March 2016‎ Gongwool (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,704 bytes) (+24)‎ . . (→‎Criticism: Changed text to quote to satisfy any pro-OPV-AIDS / pro-Vaccine-Autism link 'Fringe theorists' who may be overly-critical of cites here for reasons of bias.)

    I do want the "stalky" "harrasment" issue cleaned up. I do not want an WP editor feeling stalked and harrasssed. Nor do I want to be portrayed in those terms. And I want the attacks to stop. Where to from here? (This BLP is very unstable. There were recent ongoing BLP violation issues. Diffs of large changes; [51], [52] Editing practices may need to be addressed.) SmithBlue (talk) 03:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    This is very confusing.
    1. Are you the one feeling harassed or is Gongwool feeling harassed?
    2. Are you speaking of yourself in the 3rd person?
    Blackmane (talk) 04:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I SmithBlue am speaking of myself in the 3rd person above. "Gongwool [53] is feeling harassed and stalked". SmithBlue (talk) 07:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Hi, yes it's confusing. I have not requested that this editor make a complaint about himself on my behalf so I have crossed out the parts of the complaint on my behalf that I never asked for. With that in mind others may understand why I don't engage with this editor.
    2. Anyway, I think the real issue here is that this particular editor has has a current suspension warning from an admin for editing "fringe theory" issues and is sore with this. Whereas I don't support fringe theory and (understandingly) have no such warnings hanging over my head. He will now certainly reply below in an attempt to engage me in some awkward argy-bargy agenda, but I will not reply. Have a good day. Thanks. Bye. Gongwool (talk) 05:41, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't refactor others' comments, Gongwool. That said, I'm kinda glad this was brought here... though I am still confused. This ended up on my user talk page and frankly I ignored it as an editor dispute that I didn't want part of and because I really didn't understand what was going on. Anyway, it needs some attention. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    OK EvergreenFir, understood. But to all others please ignore the 95% of the above complaint which involves the other editor making a complaint about himself on my behalf. I did not authorise such. I'm also confused... but just getting on with WP editor business and avoiding those who have a 'fringe theory' (see his warning from admin here) agenda who desperately try to wind me up. I know there's policies at WP about pushing fringe theory and totally agree. Thanks, bye. Gongwool (talk) 06:20, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    As is obvious Gongwool portrays me as "pushing a fringe theory". Given that I'm not "pushing a fringe theory" this seems to be a form of taunting. Taunting would seem to disrupt editing. SmithBlue (talk) 07:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    See I told you he'd try to engage in argy-bargy argument and wind me up. Taunting? I think his bizarre reverse complaint (making a complaint on my behalf identifying himself as the offender) shows the reverse. His complaint compultion is too weird for me (sorry but I think he craves chaos on 'fringe theory'). I've better things to do. bye.!!! Gongwool (talk) 07:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Admins, experienced users. What do you suggest? SmithBlue (talk) 07:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The real problem

    SmithBlue joined Wikipedia in 2007. Up to the end of 2008 xe was reasonably active, but with a number of edits related to the OPV AIDS hypothesis, a refuted AIDS origin hypothesis promoted by Edward Hooper and latterly supported by Brian Martin (the locus of dispute toady). Example edits: [54], [55], [56].

    Then, after a lengthy absence, SmithBlue returned with all guns blazing on Feb 9 2016, with this ANI report on a dispute where xe had no apparent prior involvement at all (unless xe was using an alternate account?). There's also this, linking a polemical "review" of our article on the OPV AIDS hypothesis on a crank alt-med website.

    As far as I can see, SmithBlue's major beef is with the fact that the OPV AIDS hypothesis is considered refuted. From xyr edits, xe appears to consider it rejected and suppressed, not refuted. In fact, the sources show it to be refuted by robust evidence including DNA analysis.

    Addendum: In pushing for a less dismissive treatment of this refuted hypothesis, SmithBlue has started six separate sections of discussion on Talk:Brian Martin (social scientist), five of them within a single 24 hour period. He appears to eblieve that consensus necessarily means that he must agree ([57]). This is, obviously, false: consensus does not mean unanimity, and editors are fully entitled to ignore stonewalling. SmithBlue is making large numbers of rapid-fire demands on the Talk page (e.g. this series: [58]) without allowing adequate time for others to respond. He seems, in short, to be showing all the classic signs of being here to Right Great Wrongs. His wrongteous anger is clearly getting the better of him.
    A review of SmithBlue's edits shows a determination to present The Truth™ about the OPV-AIDS hypothesis - an idea first published in that well-known medical journal Rolling Stone and primarily promoted by Edward Hooper, a journalist with no known medical qualifications, which has been refuted by phylogenetic and molecular biological studies. The word refuted here is used in its correct technical sense, ref Nature. This hypothesis has been exploited by anti-vaccination activists and has played a part in preventing the final eradication of poliomyelitis. Not just nonsense, then, but deadly nonsense - so quite high stakes as far as the reliability of Wikipedia goes.

    I issued a DS notice: [59].

    I believe that editors of the Brian Martin article are losing patience with rebutting SmithBlue's querulous demands. This seems to me to be WP:BOOMERANG territory. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks for turning up Guy. Uninvolved admins - yes Guy is a very involved admin at WP:Brian Martin - please check;
    • this diff[60] for the BLP Brian Martin that compares from immediately prior to Guy's first edit there with the article just prior to me arriving with all guns blazing.
    • This diff [61] which is the result of a cleanup by respected Wikipedians User:Darouet, User:Drmies, User:DGG, User:EverGreenFir & User:Bilby. Due, I understand, to my flagging the BLP vios and Disruptive Editing.
    • Guy protests the mass removal of material. And bilby responds :Hi! The short version is that there were a pile of BLP violations in the article - claims not supported by sources, sources being incorrectly used to create false claims, and issues around due weight. ...[62] Pure magic.

    In light of Guy's involvement in turning BLP WP:Brian Martin into an attack piece and his defence of it when I tried BLPN and AN/I I suggest that Guy's actions at BLP Briann Martin make him a subject of this ANI as well. Please bear that in mind when you read his attempts to portray me as disruptive. I think it would be helpful to ask User:Darouet, User:Drmies, User:DGG, User:EvergreenFir & User:Bilby for their views on the state of the article when they arrived. SmithBlue (talk) 09:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I am certainly involved in the Martin article, though more as a result of his sponsorship of an antivax PhD that fails even the most basic tests of academic rigour. Now you need to read WP:NOTTHEM. Guy (Help!) 09:42, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The reasons you were active on Brian Martin are not why I am here. I am here in large part because of your editing conduct on WP:Brian Martin. SmithBlue (talk) 09:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I see that he's got his guns blazing from you too Guy (Help!), that's because you are also believe in WP:fringe policy. The offender's aim is to scare off any person who is not a pro-OPVAIDS or pro-Vax-Autism link fringe theorist, and his badgering seems to be working well. He's put in about 3 or 4 complaints about this article and seem to have failed, he won't give up. I asked him some time back to leave me alone as I knew he was "trouble" and he's done the exact opposite, finally putting in this ridiculous complaint on my behalf just to try and have an argumentative debate with me. Yep, he's trouble to you, me or any person who may support of WP:fringe policy. Can he be banned from this and any other article discussing fringe theory and fringe theory scientific correction issues? I don't know how such works. Gongwool (talk) 10:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC) Gongwool (talk) 11:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment There's obviously an element of content disputation here; but tbh User:Gongwool does also seem to have a somewhat unpolished attitude towards collegiality. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:27, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe, but he's been getting along OK with Bilby and they have been collaborating well enough to improve the articles. Gongwool should be aware that it's not really necessary to poke SmithBlue with a sharp stick, xe looks like xe is quite capable of digging xyr own grave unaided. Guy (Help!) 12:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and JzG, I don't admit to being too polished or experienced (unless that's a crime), but all understood and heard. Then again none of us asked for this complaint to be here, it's designed to be somewhat of a distraction, one thinks. Gongwool (talk) 12:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No, SmithBlue, you are here because you want to recruit support in your attempts to push fringe content into the article, when you are failing to gain any traction at all on the article's Talk page. That much is obvious from your statement of the dispute: you want to run the opposition out of town. It's not going to work because the edits you propose are not supported by policy. It's hardly a surprise, given your very limited experience of Wikipedia. However, the problem is not with "everybody else", it's with your unwillingness to heed consensus and apparent attempts to portray a refuted antivax trope as a valid but suppressed theory. It's not suppressed, it's refuted, as our article clearly shows. The science has actually become more settled since you originally tried this. Wikipedia is not the place to present anti-vaccination tropes as anything other than the dangerous bullshit they are. This is by design. Guy (Help!) 12:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    No Guy I am here because I saw the BLP Brian Martin overflowing with BLP violations sometime around early February and eventually decided to intervene[[63]]. Since then I have;

    • flagged the violations in a BLPN,
    • flagged the violations in an AN/I,
    • flagged your participations in the violations at a separate AN/I,
    • provided a list of further on-going un-addressed BLP violations at both AN/Is,
    • been mistypified by you as pushing fring content,
    • been taunted and attacked by your protege on BLP Brian Martin - Gongwool[[64]],
    • been ignored when I made requests for assistance to multiple admins regarding the BLP violations and user conduct violations,
    • started this AN/I to address the attacking micro-culture you as asenior admin created on BLP Brian Martin,
    • addressed your user conduct around deliberately violating BLP policy and your advising others to ignore BLP policy.

    & been struck by the participation rate of un-involved neutral admins to this AN/I. This is why I am here. I bother cause I'm not yet convinced that WP is irretrievably broken. Maybe if WP can improve its integrity - and live by it's claimed standards - things can yet turn around. And WP fulfil it's potential. SmithBlue (talk) 22:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Canvassing

    WP:CANVASS and WP:NPA in one hit, good job. See [65]. Incidentally, SmithBlue, this set ([66], [67], [68], [69]) is unnecessary since the pings you already included will have alerted these good people. Guy (Help!) 12:29, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    WTF? This complainant knows no boundaries. Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Gongwool (talk) 12:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I asked explicitly about contacting the admins who cleaned up the BLP. And was told that, as long as I didn't coach them, it would be OK. Do you disagree with the advise I got from Help Desk Chat? Do you object to 5 Wikipedians who cleaned up the BLP presenting their views?SmithBlue (talk) 12:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    There are two parts to my statement above. The first is that your post to Seabreezes1 was unambiguously inappropriate (albeit that it shows very clearly your failure to comprehend why your edits are rejected). The second was that the other posts to Talk pages were unnecessary since they will already be aware through your mentioning them here; writing on this page is in any case going firther than contacting those admins and is instead contacting the entire admin community. I can't comment on the claim you make about Help Desk anyway, since the last posting by you to Help Desk I can find was in 2008: [70] and was about something else entirely. And anybody who's seen my talk page will know I have no problem at all with involving any other admins, especially DGG, or indeed Drmies, both of whom I hold in high regard. Guy (Help!) 13:04, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    You'll find my request for clarification in the logs of Help Desk Chat: "Do you need real-time chat help with your issue? Join our IRC channel at #wikipedia-en-help" link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/chat I appreciate your demonstration of AGF on this issue. SmithBlue (talk) 21:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I suspect you are misinterpreting "sod off, we're not going to fix this". But even if you're not, posting here does the same job, as I was pointing out. Guy (Help!) 22:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Smokescreen

    The attempt, by Guy, to portray me as attempting "to push fringe content" has a major flaw.

    • I have not attempted to push fringe content.

    (see section below [[71]] where's Guy's mis-categorisation is made clear.)

    Even a quick inspection of any diff put forward will show that I am a stickler for WP policy and guidelines around pseudoscience and just about everything. WP:Infant formula - maybe I messed up there 8 years ago and let nonsourced material remain? My goal, (was it 8 years ago when I put forward those science academic publication sources?), was to have the topic portrayed exactly in line with WP policy and guidelines. I always discussed and sought consensus. And still do. Hence this AN/I. What lies behind this smokescreen of Guy's?
    User conduct in the flicking of a BLP into an attack piece.
    Here again are the diffs showing the arc of the BLP through the Guy, Gongwool and Jewjoo period[72] and out the other side[73].

    • Guy actively defended the BLP violations on the BLPN that I started in an attempt to get the BLP vios addressed. [[74]]

    I've been watching things unfold with the Brian Martin (professor) article, and wrote this a day or two ago, and hope it helps... This article is quite derogatory about Martin himself, and his work, yet this is not based on strong evidence. It seems to be mainly based on slanted views of a WP:SPA editor. I would think the article, and Talk page, contravene WP:BLP. More clarification and context on Martin's publishing record is needed to better examine this situation, but details of Martin's key publications have been removed from the page several times: [33], [34]. Despite what is being said in this WP article, Martin has published many peer-reviewed journal articles. But, yes, he does publish widely in a diverse range of publication outlets, as many academics do. The article is portraying Martin as an activist, but to me he is just an "interdisciplinary academic" working in the area of "science and technology studies (STS)." He is a full professor employed full-time at a major university. There is an amazing amount of criticism of Martin in the second paragraph of the article, relating to Michael Primero, Andrew Wakefield, and Judith Wilyman. Yet, material about Martins' STS professorial colleagues, Mark Diesendorf, Ian Lowe and Jim Falk has been removed from the article with little discussion. Johnfos (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
     

    Negative, yes, but not inaccurate. He has a history of misidentifying cranks as whistleblowers, and his supervision of the Wilyman PhD calls into question his fitness to supervise further PhDs, as that document used confirmation bias and conspiracist thinking in place of actual evidence. Guy (Help!) 23:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Guy actively defended the BLP violations on the ANI that I started (Note the smokescreening) [[75]].

    The article is being actively edited and the only material identified as an inaccurate representation of the sources has been fixed. Martin is the subject of legitimate and well-sourced criticism for his support of a PhD that failed every conceivable test of valid research work, that is not our problem to fix. I note that much of your history relates to defending Hooper's discredited advocacy of the OPV-AIDS hypothesis, a common anti-vax trope. I suspect that the "inaccuracy" you identify may in fact be accuracy that you just don't like. Guy (Help!) 09:02, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

    • On WP:Brian Martin, two edits clearly summed as BLP issues with existing discusions on Talk;

    15:29, 4 February 2016‎ 124.171.109.96 (talk)‎ . . (6,361 bytes) (-927)‎ . . (BLP issue: rem inaccurate reflection of source. see Talk) [[76]] &
    16:14, 4 February 2016‎ 124.171.109.96 (talk)‎ . . (6,558 bytes) (-185)‎ . . (rem "published by A rather than B" from lede. BLP, OR see Talk) [[77]]
    Guy claims whitewashing & reverts:
    22:55, 4 February 2016‎ JzG (talk | contribs)‎ . . (7,288 bytes) (+730)‎ . . (Reverted 4 edits by 124.171.109.96 (talk): Revert whitewashing. Please discuss on Talk efore removing material. (TW))[[78]]
    Guy with that edit summ also promoted actions in violation of BLP policy. BLP policy is clear that "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately ...". Not discussed and then later removed. And what was Guy defending?
    Here again is Bilby's reply [[79]] "... there were a pile of BLP violations in the article - claims not supported by sources, sources being incorrectly used to create false claims, ..."
    SmithBlue (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Ho-hum, it looks like big bad Guy is attempting to keep Wikipedia on the straight-and-narrow again, and someone is complaining about it again. I suppose that means that the sun will set again this evening. BMK (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll decide later if it is to rise again tomorrow, just to show that I can. #adminabuse. Drmies (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't bother, I don't mind sleeping in all day. BMK (talk) 22:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm just wondering what part of my statement is supposed to be problematic, since it's all an accurate reflection of the sources cited in the article. Guy (Help!) 00:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    SmithBlue asked me to look at the article. Without considering the history, of specific BLP questions, the actual material about the subject appears basically fair, but the presentation is slanted by multiple statements that the OPV-AIDS theory is discredited. So it is, and it is appropriate to say so in the article, but stating it one time is enough. I have noticed a similar problem in some other articles on scientist out of the mainstream. DGG ( talk ) 23:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for coming DGG. As I have raised the issue of BLP violations on the article I ask that you give your appraisal of the article as it was immediately before I intervened.[[80]]
    Yeah, that tends to happen when people keep trying to change it to suppressed or disputed instead of refuted, which is what it is. You end up with a hundred sources for a trivial and uncontentious (except to a tiny minority) fact. A pet peeve, really, since non-neutral crud gets added, it gets neutralised and left, and the paragraph never gets copyedited down to its essence. Still and all, 100% of the noise on that talk page right now is coming from one source: SmithBlue. Guy (Help!) 00:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal re SmithBlue

    It is unclear to me how this thread got so long, nor why User:SmithBlue has not been blocked under the PSCI DS yet for abuse of BLP to to POV-push PSCI and for WP:Civil POV-pushingWP:Civil POV pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article. I propose a 48-hour block on SmithBlue to prevent further disruption to the project. The mainstream editors involved here have better things to do than keep going round and round on this stuff. Jytdog (talk) 20:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC) (fixed typo in wikilink Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC))[reply]

    My current concern is the integrity of WP. I undertake not to edit on BLP Brian Martin for 48 hours. While I do this voluntarily I reject your view that I am "WP:Civil POV-pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article". Please provide your reasoning for categorising my edits on Brian Martin or OPV-AIDS as WP:Civil POV-pushing. SmithBlue (talk) 21:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Your flooding this thread with comments following my posting above kind of proves point my point about disruption. You are sucking up the time of people here. Please do actually read the essay instead of just mocking my mistake. Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    There are many aspects to this AN/I. I was seeking to stop attacks on myself and address an editor feeling harrassed and stalked. Guy has expanded the range. Are you advising that it is better to just let things slide and not respond, not fill in missing pieces, not bring elements of my concerns about user conduct here, not ask your reason for your view, "the PSCI DS yet for abuse of BLP to to POV-push PSCI and for WP:Civil POV-pushingWP:Civil POV pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article."?
    This approach is not consistent with Guy telling me that the burden of proof is on me. SmithBlue (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The continued mocking is only digging your hole deeper. You are demonstrating that you are here to fight, not to solve problems. Jytdog (talk) 01:34, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Jytdog: I'm not sure but I interpret your stamemnt re mocking to reference my cutting and pasting a mis-formatted WP essay. If this is correct your interpretation is incorrect. i was just using the quickest cut and paste available. What would it take to change your views around, "PSCI DS yet for abuse of BLP to to POV-push PSCI and for WP:Civil POV-pushingWP:Civil POV pushing at the Martin article and the OPV AIDS hypothesis article." Are there specific edits that are of great concern? Or is it Guy's authority combined with my having ever editted OPV-AIDS and BLP:Brian Martin. Or some other factors. Whatever it is, are you prepared to investigate further? SmithBlue (talk) 03:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    SmithBlue & "push fringe content" - the claims and the reality

    Guy, to evidence his claim that I, SmithBlue, am pushing fringe content, provides the following cites."Example edits: [81], [82], [83]." Let us examine them:

    • [84] I provide the source details for a book written by the subject that is already in the article. And, in an BLP, add a short description of a scientific paper that the subject co-authored.
    • [85] I change section heading from "Oral polio vaccine hypothesis (disproven conjecture)" to "=== Oral polio vaccine hypothesis (rejected) ===". This is line with Nature[86]. And Guy's own use of "rejected" on this page. (see:The Real Problem:Addendum)
    • [87] I suggest that all editors work first in the areas of agreement and list a relevant scientifically published paper that I am working on. I then point out that suppression of dissent material is also relevant. This suppression material is scientifically published and focussed on as part of the history of OPV-AIDS in a 2015 textbook, "Tools for Critical Thinking in Biology - Stephen H. Jenkins". Guy has raised no objections to the use of this tertiary source on BLP Brain Martin.

    Guy has mis-categorised my edits. SmithBlue (talk) 20:56, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    You list "a relevant scientifically published paper that I am working on"? That sounds a lot like a WP:COI. Do you actually mean that you are here to use Wikipedia as a pre-print for something that you are working on and have not yet published? Guy (Help!) 00:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Please read the actual edit in context if you have any doubts. From memory the 2008 edit contains a reference to the 2001 Lincei paper that I was working on. If so then it would be unlikely that "I am working on" would refer to a paper I am writing. SmithBlue (talk) 00:48, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Checking the 4th diff re: papers: I pointed out the existence of the papers from Lincei 2001 and I was working on reading one of the papers from Lincei 2003. SmithBlue (talk) 03:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Guy's edit that created multiple BLP vios

    BLP Policy: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous."

    • [88] The majority of the material Guy added here fails WP:Verify. As does his addition of "Category:Anti-vaccination"

    With Guy's illustrious WP history, the idea that Guy was unaware that the material failed WP:Verify must be rejected out of hand. Deliberately action against BLP policy is not about content, it is about conduct. Here we have Guy acting to knowlingly violate BLP policy. SmithBlue (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    What we actually see is more evidence of your standard behaviour: throwing dung in all directions hoping to drive off those who disagree with you. The past content of the article does not matter at all, because the people who have been editing it - even those who originally made it a borderline hagiography - have worked together pretty harmoniously. Stuff goes in, it comes out, it gets discussed, it might get modified, it might stay out - and it's all dealt with really rather calmly, with one exception: you. Look how many comments you've added here and at the talk page - and how little else you have done in the short while since your returned from hiatus. You are a bore. Accept consensus and shut up. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks Guy. Wikipedia consensus is enshrined in it's policies. You have acted to deliberately flout BLP policy. If you see BLP policy as not reflecting WP community consensus then please take your gripes to the appropriate forum and work to improve policy. Do not pretend to have consensus behind you on this matter. By doing so you continue to promote the violation of BLP policy. SmithBlue (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    This is the admin noticeboard, you are publicly accusing an admin of deliberately flouting a very important policy. Before you persist in this line of attack you probably need to be aware of a couple of things: first, I was defending controversial BLPs before that policy even existed, and was bitterly attacked off-wiki as a result; second, I wrote the standard advice given to biography subjects when they email the Wikimedia Foundation. You need to be extremely careful that you have solid evidence that my edits were deliberately flouting policy and not good faith edits based on my reading of sources, on the interpretation of which reasonable people may differ. Remember, on Wikipedia you are allowed to be wrong. What you are not allowed to do is to continue asserting you are right, even when everyone else keeps telling you that you are wrong (see WP:IDHT). The burden of proof here lies with you. So far you have given an excellent demonstration of assuming bad faith, but that's all. Guy (Help!) 00:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Guy: Please remember that, although you are an admin, here on this AN/I, your editing is under exactly the same scrutiny as mine. The burden is on you to address your many user conducts failing that I have listed here. SmithBlue (talk) 00:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Guy, given that you have deliberately changed edits of mine and by doing so showed that you are an unabashed liar, I would not be in the least bit surprised if you have flouted other areas of WP policy. DrChrissy (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    User:DrChrissy. User:Jytdog and User:JzG etc. I think this thread has lost track from its initial complaint of SmithBlue reporting SmithBlue for misbehaviour. The only notification regards this thread was that SmithBlue was making a report/complaint on my behalf about his harassment of me (go figure!!!), the rest is fill. Now I never authorized such nor will I take part, nor will I communicate with him for obvious reasons. The rest of this is all SmithBlue throwing mud everywhere and not going through proper channels. All I know is that SmithBlue came back to WP using his secondary IP account admitting he has tried "Disruptive Editing but got nowhere." It is obvious he is here to disrupt and I have better things to do that involve myself in an editor who harasses then reports themself on the victims behalf simply so he can "get another piece of me". As suggested above by another a 48hr ban on SmithBlue, which I thing is way too kind considering SmithBlue's disruptive agenda. He's never going to give up his compulsion to disrupt. I have nothing else to say here on this page, Bye. Gongwool (talk) 03:05, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I would support something stronger than what I proposed, but I wanted to get the ball rolling. It is time. Jytdog (talk) 06:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Let's sum it up to this point

    (1) DrChrissy's claim that Guy is an "unabashed liar" is an unabashed WP:NPA. A block is appropriate. Please consider DrC's block log and current topic bans when determining the appropriate length of the block.

    (2) SmithBlue's repeated WP:IDHT behavior is classic WP:TENDENTIOUS EDITING, and that, along with his own WP:NPA towards Guy, is also deserving of a block. We cannot allow ourselves to be placed in a position were people who are doing their damnedest to protect the encyclopedia from fringe bullshit are not supported in their efforts. Our credibility and accuracy are at stake.

    (3) Would someone uninvolved - admin or not - with an ounce of common sense please close this god-forsaken thread, or are we going to allow SmithBlue to have as much space on AN/I as he desires in the process of hanging himself? Shut it down, please. BMK (talk) 07:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I haven't been involved in this discussion, in spite of my involvement in the article, as during the last week I've been almost completely without internet access. But I think it should be remembered that the Brian Martin (social scientist) article did suffer from serious BLP problems until quite recently. Those problems were repeatedly identified by IPs, SmithBlue and others on multiple locations, and not acted on. This isn't a simple case of a tendentious editor pushing a fringe theory, but editors banging their heads against a wall trying to get significant BLP issues fixed and not being heard. The thing is, of course, that the problem is now much reduced and is far more manageable, (although not yet completely fixed). I'm not sure what the correct response is, but I would like to see SmithBlue and others put down the stick and tone things back, as the noise was needed before, but it is counter productive now. If a short block is needed to give that time to happen, so be it, but if something short of a block will do the same I'd rather go in that direction. - Bilby (talk) 20:49, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No that's not correct Bilby, SmithBlue is only interested in OPV-AIDS fringe theory battles with that and the other article, not general work as others have been doing. To infer SmithBlue is contributing or trying to make articles accurate (as opposed to disrupting) is very misleading, as the above threads due to him here attest to. The Brian Martin, OPV-AIDS theory and the Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents pages are where he has caused most disruption. Gongwool (talk) 21:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I find that comment odd, as you have also only been interested in OPV-AIDS articles and the Wilyman PhD as well. If the intent is to claim that SmithBlue's focus makes their efforts disruptive, then the same can certainly be said of others involved in this.
    My concern is that there were serious problems with the Wilyman-related articles, that we, as a community, only addressed because editors continued to raise them. It is understandable that those editors who weren't being listened to before are still trying too hard to be heard. I certainly agree that they need to step back, but the goal should be seeing if that can be managed through a means short of blocking, or, if not, short of an indef block. The circumstances here are more complex than they are being interpreted. - Bilby (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    From my point of view much of this AN/I is Shooting The Messenger.
    Guy's misportrayal of me a fringe content pusher seems to remain the understanding of many of the admins.
    I am treated as a problem rather than thanked for my time consuming work in getting multiple on-going BLP violations addressed. This has not been a pleasant task.
    I remain concerned that the mud thrown my way will, in the eyes of some, stick. I would find this AN/I much easier if admins were to ask me more questions and would not frame their replies to me in terms that I consider inaccurate portrayals.
    As long as Bilby is continuing to remove the on-going BLP violations from Brian Martin I will ignore BLP policy, that states BLP violations must be removed immediately, and not edit on WP:Brian Martin. (Editing on any WP article is currently as attractive as hitting my finger with a hammer).
    Does Biby advise me that holding off posting further analysis of Guy's edits around WP:Brian Martin will deepen the understandings reached by this AN/I?
    I am quite prepared to step back voluntarily and let the waters of this AN/I settle. What timeframe is suggested? SmithBlue (talk) 23:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    When the messenger is simply a neutral communication channel, shooting them is, indeed, counter-productive. But when the messenger is an integral part of the problem being reported, and they are skewing the message in a way that supports their own position while denigrating and misrepresenting the positions of others, then "shooting the messenger" makes a lot of sense. Lcok & load, ladies and gentlemen. BMK (talk) 00:03, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Especially when at the time of filing (and possibly still now) the "messenger" has absolutely nothing in their history for months other than one single issue. Guy (Help!) 00:55, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    With respect, the reports are being skewed on both sides. If we were stupid enough to focus on the drama there would be a lot of blame to go around, for all of the parties. - Bilby (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I want to thank Guy & BMK for bringing an issue into focus. If, during my voluntary step-back, I find I am inaccurately portrayed, or false or misleading claims relevant to me are made on this ANI, what can be put in place to ensure that I am not disadvantaged by my voluntary absence? A satisfactory answer to this and a timeframe that I can agree to is all that is necessary now to facilitate this step-back.SmithBlue (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Read WP:OWN. Nobody owes you nuttin'. BMK (talk) 02:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The top priority is that we fix the problems, not that we assign blame. I expect here our focus should be on how to improve the problem, or how to maintain the current direction the article has been heading in. I can't speak for others, but from my perspective we all need to tone back on the rhetoric, write with less heat (by which I also include comments about Martin), and just focus on improving the article. :) If we can close this, and get back to working on the articles, it would be a nice step forward. I don't know what else is required, but we'll see. - Bilby (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Bilby, I currently have a large target daubed on me by Guy. It reads "pushes fringe content". Multiple admins on this ANI have been convinced by Guy's presentation. I am not clear that this is best ignored or can be avoided. SmithBlue (talk) 02:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps so, but this avenue isn't going to change anyone's mind. I don't know what the best approach us, but sadly I don't see this thread as a productive solution. -1.124.49.10 (talk) 02:55, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible shared account

    User:MrFancyBro has referred to themselves with the pronoun 'we' several times. Now, I do not believe that they intend to use the imperial we, so I believe that this strongly implies shared usage. This has occurred twice on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Kehr (2nd nomination), regarding the AfD of an article that they created, and here are the diffs: [89] and [90]. Dschslava (talk) 06:17, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    COI editors often use "we". Sometimes, for example, it's the subject of the article trying to make it less obvious. Or an attempt to make it look as if more than one person thinks the subject should have an article and are "consulting" with each other to assemble the material. It doesn't necessarily mean that the account is literally shared. I notice that this article sprang fully formed complete with properly formatted references and infobox [91] from a "new editor" on their very first edit to Wikipedia which always rings alarm bells. But... how was a new editor able to create an article within 2 days of registering an account and no previous edits? I thought it took more than that to have Autoconfirmed status. Voceditenore (talk) 10:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I am aware all new users can create pages straight away. (Createpages?) Autoconfirmed allows revisions to be automatically accepted. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    From the link you posted: "Users who edit through an account they have registered may immediately create pages in any namespace (except the MediaWiki namespace, and limited to eight per minute)." Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:51, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, thank you Only in death does duty end. Interesting, because in my experience, paid editors invariably wait four days and in the interim make 10 trivial edits to other articles to get autoconfirmed before "getting down to business". Perhaps it's because they're planning to upload a company logo simultaneously with creating the article. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    It does not always raise alarm bells. A large number of registered editors began as anons (I certainly did, for months).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:40, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Davidzamani

    Hoax articles deleted. Davidzamani indef blocked as vandalism-only account. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This user has created a hoax page at Barry S White and removed the CSD tag. I have re-tagged it but can someone block him until this is over? Btw, the photo is also a hoax composite Gbawden (talk) 11:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Article deleted, user indefblocked as vandalism-only account.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Can someone have a look at Barry A. White? Looks like the page was recreated. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:22, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Articles are similar enough that it's (a) the same creator behind them and (b) also clearly a hoax. Timothy11111 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) had recently created it, as well as Damon Coleman. I'd already removed the Coleman article as a hoax; the White article will go also. —C.Fred (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Fake accident report

    Fake accident report noted. Glad all is well. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Fake accident report:[92] I have been in no accident of any kind and me and my Subaru are just fine. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:03, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Good thing, too, considering this post:[93] (smile) --Guy Macon (talk) 13:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As someone who has never been vaccinated, I have yet to die of Diphtheria... Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    On the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Guy Macon - Thanks for letting us know. I wonder what interactions that the person has had with you here before... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 14:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hard to tell from just an IP with one post. The only recent conflict I had with another user appears to have ended when an admin stepped in; see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive189#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Sir Joseph and User talk:Coffee#Sir Joseph. I certainly wouldn't want to blame SJ without evidence, though. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:48, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a very backhanded way of not blaming me, and if you look at that page, I'm not the one who called you names in violation of NPA and who had an AE request brought against him. If you weren't blaming me, you wouldn't have mentioned my name. You would have just said, "I've had my run-ins with some users but without evidence I obviously can't name names." Your naming me is just on this side of AGF and casting aspersions. -If you strike your comments, feel free to strike this comment as well. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I repeat, I certainly wouldn't want to blame SJ without evidence. As for these alleged "run-ins with some users", none of them resulted in anything close to this:[94], so I stand by my "...the only recent conflict I had with another user..." comment. Feel free to have the last word; I will not respond. I have no desire to have anything to do with you, but I was asked a direct question and had to give an honest response. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Someone is proposing a community ban

    Discussion here with examples provided: [95]. Long story short, User:LightandDark2000 appears to be well versed in Wikipedia rules enough to defend himself lawyer style by insisting he acts in good faith and shouldn't be harassed or punitively blocked, but still refuses to engage users' criticism of his editing style. Criticisms include stretching ambiguous sources to support his edits, reverting sourced edits then not undoing that when corrected despite the restriction posed on us by the 1RR, and only engaging in minimal discussion whenever we try to bring up the topic. As I said in the discussion, this dispute dates back to at least June: [96].

    Note this module is subject to WP:GS/SCW&ISIL and a 1RR. As I proposed in that discussion, letting an administrator talk to him may be more effective since he doesn't listen to us. NightShadeAEB (talk) 15:28, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Community ban discussions belong at AN, not on an article talk page. It certainly does seem that this editor is tendentious. The block log is longer than my arm. Katietalk 16:39, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Wouldn't CB discussions be at WP:ANI (here)? WP:AN is mostly more esoteric admin notices, and isn't what "the community" rather, the subset of the community with any stomach for these discussions) pays much attention to.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    While AN is the better place for these things, it usually gets decided on ANI anyway. Everything happens on ANI. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Regardless as to whether or not ANI is the proper venue for discussing community bans, I have placed a hat on the discussion on the talk page, redirecting users to this thread. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I recently requested to get a topic ban lifted on WP:ANI only to be told toward the end when it was clear it would not be lifted that I should have made the request at WP:AN. While it is clear the article talk page is not the correct place for discussion of bans, we need clearer instructions for editors on where is the correct place. DrChrissy (talk) 23:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As much fun as it is to watch old 'friends' get back together, this isn't the place. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 19:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I guarantee you that the placement of your request did not effect the outcome - you saw to that. BMK (talk) 00:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    A typically unhelpful comment from you. This thread is not about me or you. Stop wasting the communities time and try some content editing for once. DrChrissy (talk) 18:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Hee hee - what parallel universe do you live in, Doc? (Nevermind, I already know, the one in which fringe bullshit is considered to be valid science). In this universe, which is known as the real world, over 70% of my 186K+ edits are to articles. I've done more content edits this month then you have done this year. So, please, take that totally undeserved attitude of yours, and store it where the sun doesn't shine. Just consider that every day in which you're not indef blocked is a victory for you, and enjoy it while you can. Those of us who have been around for a while can see what's coming down the road in your direction. BMK (talk) 07:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Sadly, we live in this universe where a complete and total uncivil WP:DICK like Beyond My Ken can make the most disgusting personal attacks and get away with it. It's well past the time to stick BMK and his "totally undeserved attitude" somewhere "where the sun doesn't shine". It looks like a community ban is due for BMK. Alansohn (talk) 14:29, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Alan!! Where have you been, my man? You used to always be there any time my name came up, but you've been AWOL recently, and I've missed your predictable calls for my banning over every little thing. Whew! I'm glad the world is right again. Welcome back to the merry-go-round. BMK (talk) 19:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Beyond My Ken, the only people who call me by my name are my family, my friends and those I respect. You're zero for three here. It would be improper of me to call you Ken, as even the most UnEducatEd among WikipEdia Ed itors have access to the historic details. Maybe it's a good idea if you avoidEd the false familiarity of the whole first name basis thing, BMK? Alansohn (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That was very cute the way you did that, very cute indeed. Unfortunately it just helps to firm up my suspicions about who wrote that piece - certainly the quality of the research matches your own: generally good overall, but with quite a number of complete whiffs at balls in the dirt and way over your head. BTW: Take a look at WP:OUTING with a critical eye, just, you know, to see how closely you're skirting the policy. It's always good to know where you stand when you're slagging off another editor. BMK (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Voidwalker: You're a spoilsport, but I'll be good. <g> BMK (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The problem is deeper and more persistent than the above seems to indicate. User:LightandDark2000 is a POV pusher who has been a very disruptive editor for a long time on the Syria module. His bad faith, bad source edits that broke long established consensus has turned all editors against him. You can read entire sections of complaints about him on the talk pages: Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War#I propose community ban on user:LightandDark2000 editing Syria- and Iraq-related maps, Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War/Archive 50#LightandDark2000, Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War#Bad Edit: Raqqa Frontline and Module talk:Iraqi insurgency detailed map/Archive 4#User:LightandDark2000.

    He has a habit of deleting complaint messages from his own talk page so that it would not reveal who he really is. Take a look at the history of edits of his talk page and you will discover dozens and dozens of deleted complaint messages from just the last year. Let me illustrate his general attitude by giving as an example, his latest "deletion". A user in good faith writes to him: "Your source: http://en.ypgnews.tk/2016/03/15/anti-is-forces-close-in-on-groups-raqqa-hq.html is a dead link. Please provide another source." You can verify that the link is indeed a dead link since it just leads you to the "main page" of the website (en.ypgnews.com). User:LightandDark2000 deletes the message with the edit summary: "It is not a dead link. Fix your computer." You can even see that in this same edit, he increments his "vandalism counter" ({{User:UBX/vandalized|47}}) by 1, implying that the user's message on his talk page, was vandalism!

    Also there was a report about him at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#User:LightandDark2000 intentionally misinterpret sources for editing Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War and similar pages where he was blocked for one month. The mess he creates regularly takes time to be cleaned. He injects in the map his POV pushing and total disregard for other editors’ opinions, sources and established consensus & rules. He has done nothing but make the map wrong with his POV pushing & unresponsive behavior towards other editors. I am asking for him to be permanently banned from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map. Tradediatalk 17:33, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I have noticed that almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me. I see this, as well as this entire proposal, as unfairly biased. You cannot proposal a ban, or a block, just because someone has made a number of mistakes (in good faith, I might add). By the way, a permanent ban is unnecessary overkill (See WP:PUNITIVE). I have never tried to "ruin the map" or "vandalize", or "force my own point of view", I only tried to edit honestly according to the rules of Wikipedia, and recently, the localized rules added in in the sanctions. It's true that I have made mistakes. But everyone made mistakes, and I have always tried to correct my mistakes when I realized that I had made some, or at least brought it to discussion. Blocks and sanctions are not meant to be punitive either, so I can't see how this proposal (especially given the bias of the user who originally proposed it) has any legitimacy as well. If we were to follow this line of logic, every one of the users who has been complaining/pushing for me to be "permanently banned" should be banned as well. Not only have I been harassed on the Syria module talk, but I have also been attacked by a couple of users on the talk page, as you can see here. Why should I be banned when I am editing out of good faith, have absolutely no intention of disrupting or vandalizing the map, and there are also a number of users I get along with quite well on the module/article in question. By the way, there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more "POV" edits than those I have allegedly or unintentionally done (some of the mhave also engaged in serious cases of edit warring in the past few months). The users that are biased against be are currently dominating this discussion, and they are ganging up om me in an attempt to kick me off the module; I feel like I am being harassed through this proposal. Also, this "good faith" editor 2601:C7:8301:8D74:1DB4:BFDC:1999:782E that Tradedia cited is actually a WP:SOCKPUPPET of User:Pbfreespace3, where there is an ongoing SPI investigation regarding his active user of sockpuppets to cirvumvent his block. The fact that such biased users were cited as "good examples," including a sockpuppet, astonishes me and makes me question the very purpose of this proposal. I strongly believe that the users pushing for this ban want to ban me out of annoyance and punitive motives, not because of any good faith. I have also noticed that the vast majority of users who commented in the recent ban proposal (including the original proposal on the Syria module talk) are the users who are biased against me, so please note this carefully. And pertaining to the Syria module talk, a user there said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." and another said that "I think that not need a ban for editor user:LightandDark2000 he sometimes made mistakes but he said that he will no longer break the rules so I think do not need to judge him so severely. Each of us can make a mistake but it is always necessary to give a chance to mend..." If we were to ban or block a user every time they made a mistake on these "hot/contested topic" areas, we would hardly have any editors left to edit articles in any of those errors. Therefore, in light of the circumstances and the people involved in this proposal, I believe that this ban proposal should be declined. LightandDark2000 (talk) 07:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I will respond to the main points of your defense paragraph:
    • You say: “almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me.” I have counted a total of 16 different users on these feeds. So that’s a lot of “haters”! The relevant question is why a lot of these users “hate” you? Did it occur to you that this is because of your edits and attitude?
    • You mention the important notion of assuming “good faith”. However after a while, the assumption of good faith can be completely obliterated by months and months of watching you make dishonest edit after dishonest edit.
    • You invoke WP:PUNITIVE. However, you have to realize that the ban is not being requested to punish you, but rather to protect the map from your damaging edits that make it wrong and ruin its reputation, therefore spoiling the hard work of many honest editors.
    • You claim that you have been “harassed” and “attacked”. However, users criticizing your edits should not be viewed as harassment or personal attacks. These users have nothing against you as a person. They have a problem with your edits. Instead of feeling like you have been victimized, you should instead ask yourself the question of why there is so much negativity around you. Opening a section discussing your bad edits and attitude is legitimate because they harm the encyclopedia, even if the venue should have been ANI instead of the module’s talk page.
    • You mention that “there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more POV edits” than you. Other users behaving badly is not a valid excuse. If someone is breaking Wikipedia policy, then you should report them, as I have done myself this week, and this has resulted in blocks.
    • Your bringing up accusations of sockpuppetry is really beside the point. Whether the IP is a sockpuppet or not is a matter to be determined at SPI. What is in focus here is your behavior and your general attitude in responding to valid questions. As your history of edits shows, you also respond the same way to users you do not accuse of sockpuppetry.
    • You mention that “a user said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." However, this is the same user who subsequently opened this section here at ANI. So he must have changed his mind given your continued unresponsiveness… I think that your reaction to the latest section about you on the module’s talk page has been very disappointing to many users who feel that this is now a hopeless case. Tradediatalk 11:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not know that he was banned before for the same issue, which is why I did not support a ban. I still don't, I'd rather a moderator gives him a clear warning that if his behaviour persists, he'd see a topic ban or block. To be fair I was gonna bring up the vandalism counter myself, but after reading this discussion[97] of the sockpuppetry investigation I realized it had a good explanation. The rest of the deletions do not, however. I brought this to ANI because I wasn't aware of what the protocol is for someone proposing a ban in a talk page, but it was clear there was a dispute and I figured an admin would be listened to by the user, since he doesn't listen to anyone else.
    User:LightandDark2000 I keep repeating this every time, the biggest issue is your unresponsiveness to discussion. All of us regular contributors regularly engage each other in thorough discussion whenever a controversy emerges, you don't. I don't want to project onto your intentions, but your extensive use of Wikipedia policy links to defend yourself shows me that you are completely aware of what type of community Wikipedia is supposed to be, and this makes the assumption of good faith really hard to maintain. It's true users lose patience and regrettably resort to frustrated outbursts, but that does not erase the original criticism that you seek to ignore.
    It is very hard to defend you considering this has been ongoing for a year. If you wish to avoid being blocked, as there appear to be growing calls for that, this is the right moment to show you understand what's wrong and pledge to right it. NightShadeAEB (talk) 13:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And I must add, your claim that people are only criticizing you because they hate you personally is a sign of WP:CABALS and WP:MPOV. The ban proposals aren't to punish you, but to prevent disruptions to the map. You must focus on how disruptions can be prevented rather than on how it's unfair to you as a person. NightShadeAEB (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposing a community ban for 166.137.105.84

    He is constantly vandalizing the same pages that a previous IP was blocked for vandalizing and for block evasion. He continues after I have warned him many, many times. Jdcomix (talk) 17:13, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Jdcomix - This IP has no block log. Why are we jumping straight to a community ban instead of using AIV to report vandalism and have the IP blocked? ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 18:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, this appears to be long term abuse as documented here: User:NinjaRobotPirate/Animation hoaxer. -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:45, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) Very fast and prolific vandal, multitudinously warned. Blocked for 72 hours. Thank you for reporting, Jdcomix. It is true that AIV is usually faster and better for vandalism reports. Bishonen | talk 18:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC).[reply]
    (edit conflict)This is an LTA abuser, being tracked by multiple editors for the last two months. Details can be found at here, as a copycat of the Animation Hoaxer. Dozens of insertions of deliberate factual errors every day or two, so far a dozen IP's have been collected. An experienced admin should consider a range block. Scr★pIronIV 18:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I did consider it, ScrapIronIV, but this IP isn't related to any of the others listed by NinjaRobotPirate. Bishonen | talk 18:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC).[reply]
    Thank you, Bishonen. I hadn't geolocated the IP, because I have become so familiar with the behavior. All the numbers look the same after a while... This type of vandalism particularly tough to deal with, because those who perform it also insert false information into supporting articles. Scr★pIronIV 19:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately they seem to be well at home among the proxies. It doesn't exactly take any skill nowadays. :-( I guess whac-a-mole is all we can do, until such time as Wikipedia starts requiring registration. Bishonen | talk 19:07, 18 March 2016 (UTC).[reply]
    Yeah, this looks like the US-based copycat. The geolocation is wrong (New York instead of Texas), but everything else is the same, including the ISP. It could be that AT&T Wireless doesn't have a stable geolocation for customers. I hope it's not a third vandal. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This range (the 166.* range) seems to be a magnet to vandals. Site banned no less. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:28, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, this would make it the 4th user of this particular range to need a site ban. Blackmane (talk) 07:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I just filed another report for 166.137.105.22 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at WP:AIV, but it's looking a bit backlogged. This is the same vandalism from the same narrow IP range. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Disruptive editing by User:Spirit Ethanol

    The user-in-question launched an Rfc on 12 February 2016 (concerning this article) without seeking local consensus beforehand (according to WP:RFC, this should have been protocol). He then proceeded to mislead other editors into believing that Palestine was somehow displayed as a "substate of Israel", a nonsense accusation that has gained significant traction and eventually this deception proved successful. The understandable majority of Rfc contributors supported separating Palestine from underneath the Israel entry due to the absurd insinuation and premise that the former is displayed as a part of the latter state; this is entirely untrue—see here for more details. I have tried time and time again to convince other editors that the Rfc was indeed biased, misleading and indeed illegitimate—due to the reasons that have been aforementioned—although my attempts to enlighten have rendered almost unheard and subsequently dismissed. In my opinion, I honestly believe that this bull-in-a-china-shop approach on SE's part is unwelcome and unacceptable at Wikipedia. Palestine (and previously the renamed Palestinian National Authority) has been included underneath the Israel entry since 2009 by Zoltan Bukovszky (an experienced editor within the field) and had worked seamlessly ever since for seven years. I am also due to appeal the misconstrued evaluation of the Rfc, although I believe that reporting the unjust and reprehensible behaviour of Spirit Ethanol would be necessary prior to appeal. Note: the user-in-question has been previously blocked twice. Thanks.--Neve–selbert 01:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Considering that this article would fall under ARBPIA, discussion of sanctions should be at WP:AE, unless an admin sees sufficient evidence for WP:ACDS topic ban to be imposed unilaterally. I will say that Neve-selbert's behaviour in that RFC was reprehensible. The general tone of their posts sought to dismiss and belittle any opponent to their opinion. The environment surrounding Israel-Palestine articles is bad enough without more editors like this. Blackmane (talk) 06:01, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree with Blackmane's assessment. Though frankly seems like there's enough here for a passing admin to address it directly. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:08, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @TracyMcClark, The Voidwalker, Zero0000, Blackmane, and Evergreenfir: Firstly, I am willing to back off from this whole palaver and discuss the matter on the talk page in a rational and sensible manner, without any battleground overtone. Secondly, I would like the behaviour of Spirit Ethanol to also be addressed, as well as mine, for absolute fairness. And thirdly, I am not a female "she", but a male, "he" editor.--Neve–selbert 08:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, I was not seeking a block per se for Spirit Ethanol. I just wanted an investigation of some sort as to both why he did not seek prior consensus on the talk page before the Rfc and why he misworded the Rfc question. I am disappointed that my behaviour is somehow viewed as "reprehensible".--Neve–selbert 08:36, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't see how starting an RfC and attempting to resolve an edit dispute in such a civic manner is disruptive. The RfC question was not worded with intention to mislead participants, but to express how I perceived what the parent-child layout meant, which is misleading and ambiguous. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 09:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Spirit Ethanol: You should have sought local consensus prior to the Rfc. The fact that you ignored this is just pure recklessness. Your perception was a POV nonetheless, and it should have been discussed with familiarised editors before you kick-started the Rfc. A new discussion, meant to reflect on the evaluation, will take place in due course.--Neve–selbert 09:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I more or less agree with this, the RfC was essentially useless, as the only one supporting Neve-selberts position is Neve-selbert himself. So an RfC was not necessary, local consensus would have been. Neve-selbert is unlikely to have complied, just like he did not comply with the RfC, but that would have been disruptive editing and handled accordingly. That said, the RfC does not pose a problem per se, it just dragged the process out longer. On the other hand it also went to show how overwhelmingly the consensus went against Neve-selberts edits, which at least clarifies that position. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)I disagree that a local consensus would have achieved anything. The point under discussion was Israel-Palestine related. I don't think a local consensus has ever been achieved without the discussion becoming a quasi-RFC anyway. There are just too many viewpoints by too many editors in such a contentious sphere. At least in an RFC, an administrator would close the discussion which has more binding power than a non structured discussion like an RFC. It is not recklessness and declaring it as such is an assumption of bad faith. I viewed your behaviour as reprehensible because of how you badgered every point. If it did not fit your POV, it was dismissed or responded to with disdain. This is not the behaviour one expects in a RFC. Quite frankly, I would view Spirit Ethanol's skipping of the usual free for all that is 'discussion' in PI articles as a bold application of WP:IAR. Blackmane (talk) 10:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I think ultimately the only way to resolve this matter was through wider community participation, especially given that many similar articles exist. That is only achieved through a RFC. Other "discussion" at the page would have been a horrendous waste of time, I think that is quite clear. AusLondonder (talk) 10:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I think a boomerang may unfortunately be necessary here for the poster. They have repeatedly refused to WP:LISTEN to other editors. I first raised serious concerns about the fact that this article, which Neve-selbert appears to view as their personal property, listed Palestine as an entry under Israel, in the same way as a non-sovereign dependency such as Gibraltar in the United Kingdom. This post is simply sour grapes and an extraordinary attempt by a POV-pusher to smear a constructive editor. This is obvious by the referencing of expired blocks. AusLondonder (talk) 09:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is untrue, I am not attempting to smear anyone. I simply needed admin attention on the audacious behaviour of the editor-in-question. Any Rfc should have been launched subsequent to prior discussion as per protocol. Besides, I was simply trying to defend the status quo from a misunderstanding that eventually got out-of-hand. Had he just started a regular discussion on the talk page, without an Rfc, perhaps a unanimous agreement could have been reached without anyone jumping to any rash conclusions based on rash presumptions.--Neve–selbert 09:57, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What admin action should be taken against you for your "audacious behaviour"? What action should be taken against you for nominating the list for deletion on 1 January using the rationale that is was still the 31st December in some parts of the world? What about nominating it for speedy deletion on bogus grounds during the middle of an Afd in which no editors agreed with you and which resulted in a snow keep? What action should be taken against you in relation to your conduct of de-legitamising and hounding opposing editors during the RfC? What action should be taken against you given your pledge to reject the community consensus from the RfC and your pledge to edit against that consensus? What action should be taken against you given your complete and utter failure to observe WP:NPOV? AusLondonder (talk) 10:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, now Neve-selbert added "confusing" templates to the article without prior discussion in an apparent attempt of more disruption. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Recommend that this report be withdrawn & the boomerang effort ended. We should concentrate on the dispute at the article-in-question as being what it is - a content dispute. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    It should be noted that GoodDay has a history of staunchly defending this editor, a record demonstrated throughout the period of the RfC. Undermining of the RfC and it's author took place. This was in addition to consistently making ludicrous and contradictory arguments subsequently overwhelmingly rejected. AusLondonder (talk) 13:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The Rfc result, is to give Palestine its own seperate entry in the article. PS - I've already contacted Neve-selbert & advised him to walk away from the topic-in-question :) GoodDay (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    So after writing above "I am willing to back off from this whole palaver", Neve-selbert still cannot let go of his obsession and now disrupts the article with tagging. [101] [102] I repeat my call for a topic ban. Or a block, at administrators' discretion. It is not acceptable to allow it to go on like this. Zerotalk 13:34, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Look, now I give up. We can talk about this rationally on the talk page, and I will refrain myself from any discretion. I have made my argument and my case, and now I would like to put it partially to rest—that is for now, at least.--Neve–selbert 23:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    "Partially"? "For now"? So you will partially keep up ownership and disruption and maybe later return to full throttle? That is what you've done over the whole course of the RFC.--TMCk (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @TracyMcClark: I will give it a rest for now, I have run out of steam anyway. If Zoltan Bukovszky wants to contest the result? I will fully support him. Otherwise, I'm going to take a backseat. Either way, I shall continue my dedication to the SLBY articles.--Neve–selbert 00:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What happened to giving it a rest? -- The Voidwalker Discuss 01:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Continuing arguing the case here is the opposite of giving it a rest.--TMCk (talk) 01:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @The Voidwalker and TracyMcClark: I'm not arguing any case. I just need some answers to my concerns from experts, that's all.--Neve–selbert 01:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, how relevant is the UN Occupied Palestinian Territory in this context? Hmm.--Neve–selbert 01:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh dear after promising to stop the WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour Neve-selbert has simply engaged in WP:FORUMSHOPPING and posted a highly misleading and loaded "question" elsewhere as the last battle in their self-appointed crusade AusLondonder (talk) 04:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @AusLondonder: There is no crusade, and I am not forum-shopping. I need clarification from experts on this issue. I lost the debate and I accept that. Done, finished. I accept the verdict. Will I contest it? I am still considering my options. Please, stop accusing me of bad faith. Besides, I am beginning to accept the fact that Palestine should be listed separately (only from 2013 onwards, though), after a lot of soul-searching the past night. Kosovo, on the other hand, I remain ambivalent.--Neve–selbert 08:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    You really need to start listening to others. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Withdraw This report should be withdrawn, ASAP. The behaviour of Spirit Ethanol was regrettable but, then again, so was mine. I apologise for the any inconvenience caused.--Neve–selbert
    Unfortunately, as this thread has come to focus on your behaviour, I don't think that requesting the thread be closed, despite your being the OP, is going to fly. That being said, I would propose that a final warning be issued and that should future transgressions in this article area be reported, they would be sent to arbitration enforcement and dealt with appropriately per the discretionary sanctions that have been authorised by Arbcom. Blackmane (talk) 01:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course, I understand. I regret my rash actions & I would like to move on from this. I accept the verdict and I shall continue to edit constructively.--Neve–selbert 02:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As I am not an administrator, i can only propose and leave it up to the wider audience to determine the consensus for this action. Blackmane (talk) 03:05, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Long-term abuse by IPs - Cartoon category and template spamming

    I recently found IP addresses spamming Category:Cartoon Network original programs and other cartoon TV channel related categories. They also like to spam cartoon channel templates. This extends back to 2013 at least. The currently active IPs are in the 2604:2000:A005:1F00* range ([103]) which geolocates to the Hendron, VA area. Originally posted over at EFN, but after no reply and further vandalism, I figured ANI might be the better venue.

    IP addresses, chronologically;

    Is it possible to get a rangeblock for 2604:2000:A005:1F00:* (sorry, don't know how to do the CIDR)? Not sure what else to do other than get an edit filter for the type of vandalism. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The CIDR range appears to be 2604:2000::/32 (as listed by the WHOIS info). However, it should probably be narrowed down to 2604:2000:a005:1f00::/64 and checked by someone more used to working with IP ranges. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 02:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    2604:2000:a005:1f00::/64 would do the job, I think. That would block the 19 IPv6 listed and 1 /64 allocations. It is not possible to know how many different users may be using addresses in a /64 range as no tools are available to show the contributions for an IPv6 range though I read somewhere that a single user will generally use the same /64 range. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Malcolmx15: FWIW, the 2604:2000:A005:1F00* range is just one person [104] EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Malcolmxl5: rather. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:03, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    2604:2000:A005:1F00::/64 is indeed one guy. It's absolutely possible to break that down further into a /128 range but it's very rare, so he's on a 45-day vacation. Meanwhile, try the edit filter guys to see if they can help. :-) Katietalk 14:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, EvergreenFir, I had to sleep! Katie has taken care of this, I see. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you both for your help! EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    User:176.239.115.13 engaging in harassment and vandalism

    The user was reported previously he was banned 30 hours. He is vandalizing this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kurdistan_Freedom_Falcons&action=history

    Adding such words as (sic) and (terrorist) everywhere.Ferakp (talk) 12:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    This user has not been previously blocked.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Everywhere? --176.239.115.13 (talk) 12:54, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Once you are here, please be aware that your editing [105] is disruptive, and you will get blocked if you continue.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:28, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And for my other edits will you give me a cookie or something? --176.239.115.13 (talk) 16:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ymblanter: Sorry my mistake, but I believe this person is same as the person was banned yesterday. His continuing to edit the same thing and with the same style. This user was banned yesterday from making and behaving the same way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/176.239.91.133 Ferakp (talk) 17:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    IP editor on Vento Winds talk page

    Per Drmies, user should be notified first before coming to ANI. AIV would be the more appropriate venue should the behavior continue after escalating warnings are given. See WP:WARN. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Apparently I'm an "arrogant prick" acording to this IP editor. I suspect there maybe be some sockpuppeting going on there. In any case, petty schoolyard name calling, but if any admin thinks it is serious enough to block, feel free. HappyValleyEditor (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    latest troll IP

    Blocked and reverted. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:86.187.168.190, related to my AN/I report further up the page. Eik Corell (talk) 16:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Blocked. And Future Perfect at Sunrise has reverted. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Edit warring two days after being warned plus 3RR breach using Meatpuppet duck

    Please see this edit history [106] you can see that two of the editors accused of being meat-puppets here [107] managed to break the 3RR together. One of them [108] had not been active since 21:45, 27 February 2016 before returning to help his friend disrupt disambiguation pages over the past few days. User:Неполканов on the other hand was warned about Edit warring just 23:13, 16 March 2016 as was I after I brought it to attention here although I had not made 3 reverts in 24 hours. The last version by User:Saltedcake would seem best to restore. An second attempt to resolve the dispute between the last edit war and the current one was turned down on the grounds that this is a behavioral issue. Any suggestions please? YuHuw (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    According 3RR the revert of sockpuppet editor is permitted exemption, I have revert of Yuhuw's sockpuppet new IP. I have added it this IP to the Yuhuw's active investigation 18:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Неполканов (talk • contribs)
    The previous time that YuHuw complained about Неполканов on WP:ANI was on 16 March. The dispute was over Karaimism. But there was a conduct problem. Suggest readers have a look at Talk:Karaimism. Неполканов tried to engage over content, where as YuHuw replied using ad hominem arguments.
    YuHuw tried the WP:DRN on 17 March, but his post on WP:DRN consisted only of comments on the other editors. WP:DRN explicitly says that you should not do that. In any case, at the same time as posting on WP:DRN, YuHuw launched sock-puppet allegations against Неполканов.[109] WP:DRN does not deal with cases whilst they are being dealt with in other forums such as WP:ANI or WP:SPI.
    It is perhaps worth mentioning that YuHuw is suspected of being a block-evading sock of User:Kaz. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kaz.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Since the basis of other editor's complaints against and reverts of YuHuw is the view that he is a sockpuppet, it would be ideal if the open SPI, which was filed February 7th, could be resolved one way or the other. There is a lot of content there to process but this feuding is going to continue on article talk pages, user talk pages and ANI until it is decided that YuHuw is a sockpuppet or isn't one. If he is, he'll face a block but if he isn't, I think that the editors who oppose his edits will have to find some policy-based reasons to do so instead of their suspicions that he is a sock. And the retaliatory SPI YuHuw filed just made things more complicated. Liz Read! Talk! 21:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Firstly I am not a sockpuppet. I have offered many times to prove my identity to the Wikimedia foundation but have not yet been afforded the opportunity. I would like to draw attention here though please to how Toddy1 who is not even mentioned in this complaint nor at the page in question *ALWAYS* steps in to mollycoddle Nepolkanov. I do not believe there are any sincere Admin who will believe the lies of these birds of a feather and seriously take their word for it rather than check deeply into all the pre-facts leading up to this complaint. Certainly I make mistakes concerning wiki policies unlike you Toddy who expertly works the system, but I am still relatively new here and I think I have done very well to catch up to your tricks in such a short amount of time. There is a sort of catch-22 situation here where no solutions are able to be suggested. Dispute resolution was sabotaged by Toddy1 calling me a sockpuppet so that door is closed as long as Toddy1's sockpuppet investigation is open. YuHuw (talk) 21:09, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Abuse Filter For WP:Sandbox

    Hello again,

    Me and BethNaught have been going up against a number of IP's on the WP:Sandbox for a while now. I'm requesting that an Abuse Filter be put into place permanently for that page. I think that this would help get rid of all the lovely pictures that seem to always end up there. It would also be a good idea to put one on Draft:Sandbox. Thanks again for the help! --TJH2018 talk 20:27, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    To specify, yesterday and today an LTA sockmaster has been pasting explicit images on the sandbox in order to get it protected. If it's possible to write a filter to prevent explicit images being put there, that would be helpful. BethNaught (talk) 20:30, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This is an extension of the above thread WP:ANI#Wikipedia:Sandbox. There was a filter mentioned in that thread you might find useful. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    It is, but our problem is that we don't have the rights to implement it or even look at it. TJH2018 talk 20:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I do, since I'm an admin. Looking into it. Thank you, Voidwalker. BethNaught (talk) 20:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    A feeling told me you were. --TJH2018 talk 20:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Zzuuzz suggested a simple filter which has solved the immediate problem. Thanks. BethNaught (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • It might be possible to get a longer term rangeblock on this IP. However, to minimise collateral, this should be broken into two chunks. The first is 70.192.240.0/22, which should cause minimal problems. The second I calculated is larger; 70.192.190.0/19. This encompases the majority of the IP edits to the sandbox. It is also much more risky, and I am unable to effectively check the range myself. It would hit all IPs in the range from 70.192.190.0-71.192.221.255. I would not object to shrinking this range to 71.192.190.0/20. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Getting a new IP has become really easy, with my fritzbox (popular router in Germany) it is possible to obtain a new one in under 30 seconds or so.--Laber□T 21:32, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Both are Verizon Wireless dynamic ranges. First range has only two good contributions since February 20, so I've rangeblocked for 45 days. The second range, the /19 version, has 64 total edits since February 20. Of the 64 edits, 12 are to the sandbox and a few others are disruptive. Most, though, are benign. Narrowing it to the /20 range gives the same result, the same 64 edits. I'm on the fence for that one. Katietalk 01:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Sicilian IPs pushing Durium Records, Nikka Costa, inserting falsehoods globally

    Both here and on Italian Wikipedia there is a person using multiple IPs from Sicily to puff up the importance of Durium Records, and promote the work of Nikka Costa. The disruption started in late January.

    These IPs have also inserted wrong information, to the point of hoaxing. For instance, the person said that producer/arranger Don Costa was killed by the John Lennon murderer Mark David Chapman in 1983, despite Chapman being in high security prison that whole year. (Here's the Italian hoax from 24 February and the English hoax from 1 March.) Another pestiferous falsehood is the repeated assertion that the song "Go Away Little Girl" was written by James Taylor and Carly Simon rather than by Gerry Goffin and Carole King;[110] this is easily disproved by looking at any of the literature on the subject.[111]

    Regarding the Durium Records connection, the IPs are listing Durium as an important part of the biography of various singers, despite having no supporting reference. At most, Durium might have been contracted to distribute in Italy the recordings of these British and American artists, but such contracts are commonplace for various countries and not notable. In this case, the Sicilian IPs are insisting that Durium must be listed in the infobox, as if the label had signed the artist themselves, which is not the case.

    Regarding the promotion of Nikka Costa, the IPs persistently add her cover versions of songs, even if the cover version is unremarkable—not talked about in the media—which is usually the case, and the IPs also add the fact that she was a child when she released the cover version.[112] Strangely, the IPs want to call her "Nippo-American" despite nobody in the media calling her that.[113][114]

    Wikipedians who have reverted the Sicilian IPs include Serols, Oshwah, Red Jay, Doniago, Smalljim, Clpo13, Jdcomix, Arjayay and GorgeCustersSabre. 79.27.106.92 was blocked twice, once by Smalljim and once by MusikAnimal. AlexiusHoratius protected "Go Away Little Girl" and the Nikka Costa biography (a BLP) after disruption from the Sicilian IPs. The same biography was also protected on Italian Wikipedia by K'n-yan.[115]

    Disruption at musical artist biographies
    Other articles disrupted
    Global contributions of these Sicilian IPs

    It looks like the Sicilian IPs are too widely spaced for a rangeblock to work. I recommend instead that we place long-term semi-protection on all of the involved articles. Binksternet (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Also, 79.56.98.36 was blocked for two weeks by Kuru. Binksternet (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Poor attitude, lack of good faith and ownership issues of User:Cassianto

    User:Cassianto is displaying a very poor attitude and condescending tone of language towards me. I raised a simply query on Talk:Frank Sinatra about the formatting of the info box, and every since said user has been talking down to me, both on the bio talk and on my own talk page, and asserting a serious case of ownership. I feel like I am being bullied and sidelined because I don't belong to the small group that who are asserting editorial control who are not willing to listen to anyone else. His block log over the last 18 months for multiple personal attacks and harassment isn't a good indicator either.

    Not once have I told anyone to "shut up", or swear at anyone, or made anyone feel like they have no place in a discussion during this entire discussion. There is a high level of immaturity being displayed here and a serious case of group ownership.  — Calvin999 22:21, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Unfortunately Calvin999 has a habit of saying things which he knows will provoke a reaction. He's done it previously with the Wp:Women group. Here he is clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article and of oreivous infobox disputes and just comes across as looking for trouble. Stirring things up, looking for a confrontation and then running to ANI to try to fester some drama. Cassianto has simply said what most of us are thinking. I strongly suggest an admin gives Calvin a good speaking to and advises him to focus on content and stop trying to wind people up. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreed. The compromise of the collapsed infobox was decided months ago but Calvin has derailed that compromise and split the consensus of whether or not the collapsed infobox should remain in the article. Every time I've seen him he's always been provoking people and looking for trouble. JAGUAR  22:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Is disagreeing, or even raising a query, classified as provoking a reaction now? I wasn't aware it was. Blofeld is accusing me of lying. I have never been involved with anything to do with the info box situation. Check your threads, discussions and archives. You won't find my name. Please give me some proof of your accusation Blofeld (You won't, because you can't, and so you will ignore this request). I strongly advise you get your facts right and stop getting things twisted. If you both think that I have enough time in the day to "look for trouble," then you are both mistaken.  — Calvin999 22:58, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I have been the target of Cassianto's disdain so I know what it feels like but I must say that this edit, where you post a template message "welcoming" Cassianto to Wikipedia as if he was a newbie, was bound to provoke any editor who has been active for 6 years. Liz Read! Talk! 00:35, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't help the pre-coded template. I placed a Level 1 general warning. It wasn't appropriate to issue a final or only warning as I hadn't needed to go through that many. Maybe the template needs changing, because not assuming good faith as a level one can apply to anyone.  — Calvin999 01:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Really? 'I can't help the pre-coded template' is the best you can do? Katietalk 02:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it's true, is it not? Or do we have templates for allegedly experienced and established editors?  — Calvin999 10:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Forget fucking templates, see WP:DTR. CassiantoTalk 11:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Why are you swearing again? It's not impressive. Also: WP:DTR#Recipients should still assume good faith.  — Calvin999 11:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Dr. Blofeld, can you indicate how Calvin999 was "clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article"? He hadn't edited the article (except that onetime un-collapse of the infobox the previous day) or its talk page prior to that TP query, and there were no TP posts or discussions directly visible on the page when he posted it [116]. Softlavender (talk) 02:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC); edited 04:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Because Calvin has a history of making remarks at places he know is going to provoke a reaction. Knowing his trolling at the women project it's obvious at least to me that he knew that an infobox dispute had been prevalent with Sinatra and knew that by bringing it up again it would provoke a reaction and drama. At times Calvin behaves suspiciously like User:Caden, especially recently with the argument with Cassianto whom Caden detests. I did wonder if he was a sock but I don't have any proof of that. He is a troublemaker, you can see this by how the argument unfolded he persisted on winding people up and templating veterans like Cassianto and myself. Calvin seems to revel in the drama that his comments cause at times, this is another example of it. I'm not buying the argument that he strayed into the Sinatra article of all ones and happened to innocently comment on the infobox, sorry.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:29, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Being a veteran, you should be able to rise above being templated, not get wound up by it... Like, ironically, a noob would. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    He didn't wind me up with templating me, I wasn't even online when he did and it was swiftly reverted by somebody else!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    You still haven't provided any actual evidence he had any prior knowledge about the history with the infobox on the Sinatra article. The fact that on one single day six months ago he objected to the existence of WP:WikiProject Women does not mean he knew anything about the history of the infobox on the Sinatra article. If you want to file an SPI that would be one thing, but jumping to conclusions based on little more than personal dislike seems to be unwarranted. Softlavender (talk) 07:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Softlavender, you hold a grudge against me since we had a AFD dispute that one time, so any comment made here by you about "personal dislike" just looks laughable. From a 60 year old woman it's a bit petty/childish of you to bring your grudge here. I have nothing against you, but this is really none of your business. The fact is, the Sinatra article has had a few million hits since I wrote it, and nobody has claimed about a collapsed infobox till now, and it's Calvin of all people. Assume good faith? Mmm.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Now you're engaging in even more mind-reading. I certainly don't hold a grudge against you, and I don't recall any AfD we might have disagreed on -- since AfD arguments are generally to either Keep or Delete, people always disagree, even with editors they agree with on other things. Anything on ANI is any experienced user's business, and if you make a claim like Calvin999 was "clearly aware of the heated history with the infobox on the Sinatra article", you need to be prepared to back it up with evidence. Softlavender (talk) 08:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I have the answer for you Softlavender: Neither Dr. Blofeld nor any of his friends can provide evidence or proof of me having edited Sinatra's page or having been involved in anything to do with it's format, style or presentation, because I have never been involved in any of it. They are clutching at straws. The whole "provoking a reaction" thing is cute but has no weight in it's argument. They classify anyone not agreeing with them as provoking a reaction. Again, who on earth is Caden? Blofeld needs to be seriously cautioned on his tendency to accuse people of things they have never been involved in or know anything or anyone about. It's really not helping his case here. I'm not buying any of the BS lies he is spewing either, which is further cemented by his innate inability to provide any kind of proof or evidence. Also, Blofeld, it's you who bought up WP Women, not me (clutching at straws again). I forgot about that ages ago. Think it's time you did too. Bitterness and lying is not the answer. You couldn't answer anything I asked you on Sinatra's talk or my user talk, and now you are dodging Softlavender's questions.  — Calvin999 10:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Calvin, please just Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass and move on. You're coming across as a troublemaker, a troll, whatever you want to call it. If you want to bring about change to wikipedia you're going about it totally the wrong way. Get on with something constructive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    But you aren't? Again, you've dodged everything I said. I think you need to take a long hard look at your style and approach too, because you're certainly not perfect yourself (and I don't claim to be either, because you take that and run with it). You've trapped yourself in your own web by demonstrating how you are out to get me, but have absolutely nothing to back up what you're saying, and now you are trying to deflect the attention from yourself. I'm afraid that is the consequence of outright lying and accusing someone else of lying without any proof. It was you who started on me, and it is you who is failing to comply here. Until you can form a valid argument, I'm really not interested in whatever lies you have to say henceforth.  — Calvin999 11:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This discussion really isn't turning out in your favour, is it? JAGUAR  11:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't say it was in yours or your friends, either.  — Calvin999 11:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Aaron, I'm really sure this thread is worth the trouble it's bringing. I advised against the templating, and you put it back in, which caused the reaction you got. I'd possibly have done the same if someone had templated me with a welcome template too! i'm not sure about the OWN accusations either: whenever I've seen that particular allegation made (along with the claim of being sidelined or not listened to), it's always by someone against whom the consensus is flowing, which appears to be the case on the Sinatra thread too (given nothing more scientific than a !vote count). Given that a couple of your comments on the thread are as staunch and inflexible as those you are complaining about, I'm not sure this is going to lead to anything constructive. It may be time for all parties (from all sides) to down sticks and walk away. – SchroCat (talk) 11:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks SchroCat a.k.a. the voice of reason! :) I came here because of how I was being spoken to and sworn at. I think that Cass should apologise for swearing and talking down to me, and I think that Blofeld should apologise for accusations of lying and troublemaking. If they want to be seen as rising above this and repairing their facade's, they would apologise.  — Calvin999 11:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    You'll be waiting a long time for any kind of apology from me. That's all I'm going to say on the matter and as far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed. CassiantoTalk 12:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Asserting control again? It's not your decision to decide to close, especially when it's you being reported...  — Calvin999 13:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not saying I think it's my decision to close, I'm saying that I shall no longer be active on this thread, so as far as I'm concerned the matter is closed. CassiantoTalk 16:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Note to admin: I'd like an interaction ban which bars Cassianto (and Dr. Blofeld and Jaguar; all three of them have block logs of multiple counts of personal attacks and harassment) from interacting or contacting with me please. I don't need or want someone as immature and disrespectful as this harassing me here and on my user talk, telling me to fuck off and personally attacking me. He has a history of being vile to editors (as noted by other editors in this thread) and telling them to fuck off. He has a serious attitude problem and I don't want, need or care for that. Many editors are emailing me personally telling me how they have been treated by him, so it's not just me who is saying this. All three of them are ganging up on my user talk.  — Calvin999 13:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    "All three of them have block logs of multiple counts of personal attacks and harassment)" LMAO, name a single block in the last five years and a valid one which actually stood for more than a few hours. I don't think I've ever been blocked legitimately for a block duration given! As far as I was concerned this was over last night. Myself and Jaguar have only recently spoken to you because of your idiotic comments towards Cassianto about having more life experience and education. You just don't know when to drop it and move on. As I said on the Sinatra page, this ANI thread is not about Cassianto or myself really, it's about your need to be the centre of attention and comments which look to provoke a reaction. If you had genuine good intentions you'd have dropped this a long time ago.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    A log is a log that is never wiped clean. Any amount of duration for a block is not good. I wish it had stayed done with last night, but you've carried it on and trolled and harassed me on my user talk today. Just stop replying to me or posting on my talk. The three of you have shown your true colours and everyone can see it. If any of you had good intentions, the three of you wouldn't have taken the harassment path and instead shown me how, why and when consensus was reach bout the info box in a cool, calm and collected manner. You really don't have a leg to stand on accusing me of things that you are guilty of yourselves. The Sinatra thread is 100% about you. I kindly request than an interaction ban is imposed on Cassianto, Dr. Blofeld and Jaguar so that they are not allowed to contact me or have any form of interaction with me again.  — Calvin999 14:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    My block log is clean but please add me to the list for any possible interaction ban with this overly-dramatic editor. We hope (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    79.78.168.63

    79.78.168.63 (talk · contribs) has returned to his disruptive edits at Hebrew calendar after the page protection expired.[117] The edit summary speaks for itself and proves that this editor is not going to desist. The IP was blocked this February for two weeks for the same type of behavior. Also see User_talk:HighInBC#79.78.168.63 and User_talk:HighInBC#79.78.168.63_again for some history. I propose to block this IP again for a month.

    In view of the fact that the edit summary quotes my post at Chesdovi's WP:AE, see my post and Chesdovi's reply, I think somebody should check if this IP is a sockpuppet of Chesdovi. Debresser (talk) 22:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I notice that Debresser did not have the courtesy to notify Chesdovi of his allegations. As to the edit, there has been discussion on the talk page, which Debresser conveniently fails to mention. A suggestion was made by Sir Joseph, which Debresser and StevenJ81 endorsed, and the discussion ended with an agreement to edit the article on those lines. This I have done. Note that Debresser insinuates that my edit is "disruptive", but fails to mention anything which he finds disruptive about it. 79.78.168.63 (talk) 12:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Lies. The discussion ended with a unanimous disagreement to change the article (and a template dedicated to Jewish holidays) along the lines proposed by 79.78.168.63.
    2. Disruptive is an editor who insists to repeatedly perform an edit which is rejected by consensus, and for which he was blocked and the article protected. That is obvious enough, and needn't be spelled out. The claim that his edit enjoys consensus is a case of WP:DIDNTHEARTHAT and is a nice example of how disruptive this editor is.
    3. I forgot to notify Chesdovi and will take care of that forthwith.[118] I opened this section not about him, but about the disruptive IP. Debresser (talk) 13:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Check above:

    I think somebody should check if this IP is a sockpuppet of Chesdovi.

    This section is not about Chesdovi?

    The only person who is lying is Debresser. Here's the discussion verbatim:

    Considering the title of the article is Marcheshvan, and that redirects are free, I think the article should be housed at Marcheshvan with a redirect from Cheshvan. Even if common people would type in cheshvan, they'd get to marcheshvan, from the redirect and learn that it's really marcheshvan, similar to an index in a paper encyclopedia where you look up cheshvan and it says, "see marcheshvan." Sir Joseph (talk) 16:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Not a bad idea. Debresser (talk) 16:40, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Do we need a RPM or just do it? Sir Joseph (talk) 16:53, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    If you look at the page history you will see that all the reverts are by Debresser with abusive edit summaries, e.g.

    Revert to pre-vandalism version.

    I propose a block for Debresser for

    • Edit warring
    • Lying
    • Unsubstantiated WP:NPA.

    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.168.63 (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2016‎

    The problems here are that 1. The edit you made did not implement that precise suggestion but repeated the same edit you were blocked for. 2. The blocks were supposed to have made you understand that you can not do whatever you want, and you should be extra careful not to draw premature or incorrect conclusions in the same field you were blocked for. 3. There was indeed discussion, but no decision was made there. Debresser (talk) 21:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you need to go to WP:SPI but the behavior is strikingly similar. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The block can be made regardless of the sock question. Debresser (talk) 23:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    MfD end run GAME

    See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chaz Knapp. Userpage kept at MfD, so someone moves it to mainspace to see it deleted under the higher standards of AfD. A disingenuous move of someone else's userpage. WP:GAMEing to subvert the consensus at MfD. Blatant refusal to accept the obvious consensus at WT:N that the WP:GNG is not to be applied to userpage drafts. WP:TEAMing, by the page mover and the AfD nominator. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    This is a little crazy. The page should be userfied and the AfD closed. It was a user page moved into main space and then immediately nominated for deletion so clearly the editor didn't think it met notability standards. It should have been left as a user page. Liz Read! Talk! 00:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    No notification to me of this thread, just happened to see the topic. It is disingenuous to vote to keep a topic that you think does not belong in the encyclopedia and even more so to start an ANi thread about someone taking action to make usable something you want kept. There are tons of stubs out in mainspace waiting to be expanded and this is just one more. If the topic passes GNG, great, and if not, that is ok too. Let editors decide. Legacypac (talk) 00:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I think the question is not on the material itself, but the fact that almost no one, not even yourself, believes it passes GNG, but it was moved to the mainspace seemingly with the intent to have it AFDd. It makes it seem that the thought process in your head is as follows: "Oh, it survived MfD because GNG does not apply to the user space. Let's move it to the mainspace so it can be deleted!"
    I'm not really sure what I think of this mess. It brings up the question, why should stale drafts be deleted? No one seems to agree on that. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 01:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Other examples:

    I'm sure there are more. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Moving_userspace_drafts_to_mainspace_to_test_notability

    Re, "just move it back", there is the issue that non-admins can't actually do this, since it requires moving over a redirect. Also, moving it back would almost certainly result in Legacypac moving it again, and I don't want to start a move war. A2soup (talk) 15:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Wait, is the accusation that I'm teaming up to nominate the page for AFD along with closing the MFD discussion? I'm just closing these MFD discussions and there's been more than enough at MFD with people moving them to mainspace in the middle of MFD and removing the MFD notice. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Rohit Varma, M.D., M.P.H. (2nd nomination) and Rohit Varma for one by DGG. If Legacypac is doing that with non-notable pages, then anyone can nominate them for deletion but most of the moves seem fine to me. The RFC on these moves basically came back as no consensus due to not being specific enough. I nominated the Watersheds for AFD specifically with the option to draftify since it didn't seem to qualify for mainspace. I think the issue is the question of what exactly is to be done with many year old drafts that possibly (?) aren't ready for mainspace. That and the repeated accusations of some kind of cabal-like behavior based on the very few interactions going on at MFD. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    You are connected in that Legacypac is drawing from your list of so called stale pages, and in at least two cases have AfDed a userpage that legacypac moved to mainspace in bad faith. I would call on you to not enable this activity. Yes, Legacypac is doing many justifiable userspace-to-mainspace moves, but amongst them are some pretty bad faith MfD end runs, moving userpages to mainspace where he well knows they will be promptly deleted per AfD standards. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think there is a large amount of mind-reading as to why Legacypac is doing whatever he is doing in this area, and I personally agree with Ricky81682 that the moves look helpful and in good faith. If someone's research and writing appear useful to the encyclopedia, then by all means move it to mainspace. Softlavender (talk) 02:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • The move by Legacypac is at the very least WP:POINTy. He directly stated in the move rationale that he didn't think it was notable, and yet he moved to mainspace anyway. I don't think Ricky's behavior is problematic. Assuming good faith, he saw an article that wasn't notable in the mainspace and nominated it for AfD, exactly as he should in that situation. ~ RobTalk 03:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Many of the page moves are an end run around the communities lack of agreement for the wholesale deletion of drafts. One random example is Hack n' Smack Celebrity Golf Classic in Memory of Kerry Daveline. Legacypac moved it from userspace to mainspace where it was A7-ed. Yet Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_56#The_A_criteria_do_not_apply_to_DraftSpace was abundantly clear that A-criteria do not apply outside mainspace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:09, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I've CSD'd thousands of stale drafts and promoted hundreds of them to mainspace. The complaining deals with a few borderline cases. I actually thought the Hack and Smack one was notable (it is a long running Hollywood star studded event that has received a lot of press) and was surprised to see it deleted A7 by an Admin. I'm doing productive sorting of stale drafts. The complaint is only armchair quarterbacking. Legacypac (talk) 05:19, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • No action: Not an ANI issue, as others have noted. The purpose of draftspace is to draft articles. This is just an illustration of how current MfD practices are woefully inadequate to the task of handling the draft namespace. Draftspace MfDs are essentially a catch-22: The purpose of draftspace is to prepare an article for eventual movement to mainspace. MfD won't consider notability of a draft because a draft isn't an article. So we're left with a continuous parade of abandoned drafts on subjects that weren't notable when written, and never became notable in the ensuing years. Call it an IAR move. Something has got to give. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 05:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Certainly an ANI issue. I have userfied the page and closed the AfD. Legacypac has been completely open with this strategy: the edit summary from Graffiki sums it up nicely: move to mainspace to subject to AfD to test notability- claims at MfD that GNG does not apply are too annoying. I have left the following comments at User talk:Legacypac along with a warning not to continue these actions. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    It was highly disruptive to move User:Acresant1123/Chaz Knapp to mainspace when you knew it was not suitable. You are hereby issued with wet trout. If you do this again, you may be blocked.

    Just in case you don't understand why your actions are inappropriate, consider the following analogy. There is something in your userspace which I find objectionable. I move the page into the template namespace. I then open a TfD pointing out that it is not a template and should be deleted.

    If you want to change Wikipedia's policy on the draft namespace, then please work towards getting it changed. (You may well receive broad support from other editors.) But circumventing inconvenient policies that you don't agree with, will not be tolerated. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

    What a disruptive move on your part, threatening me for moving a marginal article to mainspace - i even tagged it appropriately for cleanup. Why are you overriding another Admin's AfD and the opinions of other editors that this should be deleted? Sitting in the userspace of a long gone user accomplishes nothing. 07:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

    I agree. MSGJ's action here is closer to a supervote than anything else. Even if the move to mainspace was wrong, unilaterally closing an AfD with good faith !votes in support of deletion, before the discussion had been open for 7 days, would be just as wrong if not more so. Two wrongs don't make a right. As I said above, this is yet another illustration of how woefully inadequate MfD has become for addressing article drafts. Legacypac should be commended for being bold and trying to find a resolution for this. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 07:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Better to wait for an editor who cares about the topic to look into it than to have legacypac mass-process them all throwing out notable drafts amongst them, and alienating once productive Wikipedians now on wikibreak. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't move the goalposts. Softlavender asked about a very specific scenario that didn't involve people on wikibreak, and involved a draft that hadn't been touched in a half-decade. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:04, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    There was an MFD discussion for deleting a page of a user who hasn't been active since 2005 opposed heavily on the basis that the user didn't put up a "retired" tag on their page meaning that they could return after a decade. To some people, a half-decade or longer could be a wikibreak. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    And how would an editor "who cares about the topic" find such a non-notable userpage draft? And who would such an editor be that would even find a userpage draft on a non-notable subject? Moreover, unless coded with "noindex", non-notable user subpages come up on Google searches and act as spam and self-promotion unless deleted. Softlavender (talk) 08:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Interested editors find userspace material using internal Wikipedia searches, or WhatLinksHere from related topics. The issue is Legacypac GAMEing to delete old drafts on notable topics. Deciding Wikipedia-notability requires extensive source searching and analysis, it is not defined by the current state of the page. Spam and promotion are irrelevant to this discussion, no one opposes deletion of spam and promotion. What this is about is Legacypac moving userspace drafts on possibly notable topics to mainspace so that they will get deleted, when the page has already been kept as a userpage, or draft page, at MfD, or he knows full well that it would be kept. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Softlavender: Re "non-notable user subpages come up on Google searches" - this is a common argument, but it's actually not true at all, and hasn't been for some time. As documented at Wikipedia:Controlling search engine indexing#Namespace and robots.txt, all of userspace and draftspace are automatically noindexed. You can verify this yourself by trying to find these drafts through Google. I've done it and found that, ironically, all you can find is the deletion discussion. So deleting the pages actually gives them marginally more exposure than leaving them be. For stale pages with mild to moderate promotion issues, the best option is clearly to blank and replace with {{Userpage blanked}}, which is actually the remedy recommended by WP:STALEDRAFT. A2soup (talk) 21:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) The attitude I've been seeing since I showed up at MfD seems to alternate between "someone might use it someday" (but contrast WP:XBALL) and "the policy page doesn't say we should delete it" (usually referring to the explicit wording of WP:STALEDRAFT, which suggests a whole host of non-delete outcomes for things that will never be used in yet another half-decade). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 08:01, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The logic here beats me. MFD is just getting weird. Ten year old drafts of Hitler have opposition to deletion. 18 month old press releases in Mongolian about stock issuances get opposed. Eight year old copies of mainspace articles get opposition. Nine year old drafts of the article for WWI in the userspace of a vanished user are opposed. We have non-admin closures for a crazy contentious discussion to keep a single sentence after five years when a draft already exist based on other identical discussions while relisting get reverted until an RFC about whether "Is it appropriate to indiscriminately and without meaningful comment relist old poorly attended discussions" is resolved. I don't agree with it but I understand Legacypac's frustration. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That's inclusionism gone mad. The arguments posted by the opposers are nonsensical. Blackmane (talk) 10:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    My personal favorite at the moment is this MfD in which it's been claimed that deleting content copied-and-pasted from a web source as a copyvio is inappropriate because it serves to BITE the creator, who might be an employee or volunteer for the subject, and who hasn't followed the instructions at WP:DCM, and who has been blocked for having a promotional username and engaging in promotional edits (and not merely a UAA "you only have to change your username" block). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    To answer why we are deleting userspace drafts, the process found about 50 hoaxes just from one user: [121] and it took me just a couple minutes of checking to find this nonsense User:RickyIsNinja/The_Ooba_Jooba but hey maybe we should save that in case someone can establish notability or wants to work on it. Legacypac (talk) 18:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    That looks like a slam-dunk delete to me because it's either a hoax or something made-up for off-wiki purposes. Even hardcore inclusionists should see that. I've gone ahead and MFD'd it. clpo13(talk) 18:53, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The more appropriate and efficient action for a blatant hoax to to speedy delete per WP:G3. But in any case, to the best of my knowledge, neither I not anyone else has opposed the MfD deletion of a demonstrated hoax. Contrary to their statement above, Legacypac has repeatedly stated that the purpose of deleting userspace drafts is to clean up userspace, with no mention of hoaxes. A quick look at their MfD noms will also show that hoaxes are a very small proportion. A2soup (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    If we MfD this User:Rileyboss/Michael smith's dick someone will argue we should not be tampering with userspace. Legacypac (talk) 19:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    And accuse whoever nominated it of being a busybody, most likely. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    A userpage draft should not be kept indefinitely. It was last edited by the editor who created it in March 2011. If there is no policy on drafts covering time limits for drafts then policy covering the matter should be created. How many years can a draft be kept in usepage before it is deleted or moved to mainspace? QuackGuru (talk) 19:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Sadly, there's enough apathy regarding drafts and MfD generally that the jurisprudential practices there have turned it into a walled garden. The suggestions in WP:STALEDRAFT are particularly disconnected from reality. Redirecting drafts to mainspace articles that never had content from them, simply blanking drafts comprising unsourced BLPs, keeping and stubbing copied-and-pasted web content with no evidence of permission. These things would never happen in any other deletion process. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Reverting relistings by admins and demanding RFCs on the matter wouldn't happen elsewhere either. The problem is it's easy to come with the hypothetical "fearful user who returns after a decade distraught that the one-sentence text he started in 2007 was deleted" but that's not the reality. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    @A2soup's point hoaxes are one of many reasons the continued objections to cleaning up user space are inappropriate. We keep hearing that we should leave userspace alone, but there is copyvio, attack pages, and ofher issues there. Here is another example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pope_Pope/Aye_Phyu_Phyu_Aung -surely this should be kept in case she becomes a famous person and someone can use this as background material. Legacypac (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm not convinced there's GAMING occurring here. Given how much these two edit on XfDs, I'd need a lot more evidence to be convince this wasn't just coincidence.
    How about we discuss an expiration date for stale draft pages instead? Frankly I buy the arguments above that there's no reason to keep old abandoned drafts, especially ones with minimal content. I'd think anything older than 3 years should just be deleted outright unless someone thinks it's remotely worth of stub or higher status in the mainspace and approaches GNG. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:48, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The GAMING is apparent in Legacypac's comments in the MfD discussion: "If not deleted here I will promote to mainspace on the strength of the Keep votes." To which I (the sole Keep vote) responded, "Emphatically, I do not advocate promoting this article to mainspace in its present state - I am not arguing for that." Nonetheless, Legacypac moved the page immediately after MfD closure with the move summary "stale draft that survived MfD because editors refused to consider notability". If that's not evidence of the GAMING descirbed, I don't know what is. A2soup (talk) 22:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    See also the similar case of User:Abstractmindzent/Graffiki, which Legacypac moved to mainspace with the move summary "move to mainspace to subject to AfD to test notability- claims at MfD that GNG does not apply are too annoying". The best evidence for GAMING is Legacypac's comment here, in an MfD discussion where they explicitly lay out their plans for what they are doing now: "If you keep voting to keep draft articles on non-notable topics, I'll moved them into article space and AfD them. When they are deleted by the larger community thr dtaft turned in a redirect will be deleted too." A2soup (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) I have no objection to removing copyvio, atttack pages, and many other issues from userspace. I think that speedy deletion per WP:G12 (copyvio) and WP:G10 (attack pages) are more efficient avenues than MfD, and will sometimes say so, but I do not oppose those deletions. What I strenuously object to is deleting userspace drafts for notability issues, which was the question at stake in this case and the others that I have complained about. Non-notability in userspace is not problematic because the pages are not part of the encyclopedia and are not indexed in search engines (deletion discussions are indexed, so deletion ironically give these pages more visibility than they would otherwise have).
    I have yet to see a reason why deletion of non-notable stale userspace drafts benefits the encyclopedia compared to the alternatives of removing from the stale drafts category or blanking with {{Userpage blanked}}. In addition, it has the definite drawbacks of 1) taking up admin time, 2) increasing the visibility of the pages, 3) making material difficult to retrieve (even if the subject is not notable, some of the information may be useful in another article, which may not have been created yet), and 4) alienating editors, since userspace is generally considered a private workspace, as long as the work is not problematic.
    As a final note, Legacypac states above that they are "cleaning up user space". This practice is is in direct contradiction with WP:MFD, which states: "we do not delete user subpages merely to "clean up" userspace. Please only nominate pages that are problematic under our guidelines." That Legacypac is not only persistently disregarding this policy with their MfD noms of stale non-notable drafts, but also disregarding the policy through GAMEing tactics, is the subject of this ANI report. A2soup (talk) 21:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Regardless of the benefits of deleting userspace drafts, user pages are not private workspaces (see WP:UP#OWN). Users no more own their user pages than they do their contributions to articles. The only way to ensure information on Wikipedia is not changed or deleted is to keep it somewhere else. clpo13(talk) 22:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand that userspaces are not technically private workspaces. I am arguing that they are usually treated as such when non-problematic, which makes clearing out stale drafts in userspace apt to offend editors and therefore undesirable. A2soup (talk) 22:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Considering how broken MfD is, referring to its landing page for an indication of the only ways in which it may be used is almost comical. It's not a policy page, or even a guideline page. It's a process description page referring to what is quite possibly the most broken deletion process right now. At the end of the day the entire purpose of userspace drafts (and draftspace drafts) is to write articles that will someday become articles. Okay, it takes up admin time: Let's create a CSD process if these pages are uncontroversially useless. It increases the visibility of the pages? A couple weeks listed at MfD is a joke compared to the years most of these have spent getting indexed by Google. Making the material difficult to retrieve is a reasonable complaint, but where we're talking about drafts that have no hope of becoming articles, there's almost never anything to retrieve. Finally, alienating editors? What's worse: Deleting a draft that has zero hope of becoming an article written by someone who created nothing else; or leading editors on by keeping a hopeless draft at MfD only for them to submit it to AfC to get declined again and again (or moved to mainspace where it gets A7'd or AfD'd immediately)? And how is unilaterally blanking someone's sandbox any less bitey? At least MfD gives an explanation beyond an edit summary, as well as shows an inexperienced editor that it wasn't some roving tyrant of an admin who shat on their userspace, but an actual discussion by more than one person. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Apologies if the answer to this is in the giant thread to this point, but why isn't indexing of drafts disabled? I realize that makes them less visible to editors who could help bring the draft to usefulness (though I wouldn't be surprised if that's never happened in the history of the universe), but maybe that's the dividing line between draftspace and mainspace -- in draftspace, someone's got to either get the thing to a minimally acceptable point on his or her own, or explicitly recruit others to help make that happen. Probably these comments will seem hopelessly uninformed to those who hang around the draft process a lot. EEng 22:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, I just checked on it myself. Looks like userspace did get noindexed as of around November (though the INDEX magicword apparently still works there to override it), and draftspace is also noindexed by default (no idea when that was implemented). All that said, most of the disputes at MfD are over userspace drafts from before 2014. But on the other hand, MfD is also noindexed by default. So is all of AfD. So the whole argument about giving new prominence to something that should be deleted is kind of a wash (though I'd point out that virtually all the userspace drafts getting nominated were indexed for years before getting nominated, so even then... it's a drop in the bucket if MfD increases that prominence). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Re "MfD is also noindexed by default." - Sorry, this just isn't true. I don't understand why you're saying it. I spend a lot of time googling stuff at MfD. Try it yourself, run these google searches on userspace drafts currently at MfD: [122] [123] [124] What comes up? Maintenance categories, deletion discussions, and not the page itself. A2soup (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, closed MfDs are noindexed by default. {{mfd top}} transcludes a noindex flag. Perhaps active MfDs should be noindexed as well. I think that's something worth discussing, don't you think? —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 01:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Glad to see my comments weren't so hopelessly uninformed after all. EEng 02:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal. If the stale draft is not going to be deleted then it should be blanked. I will replace the draft with {{Userpage blanked|reason=stale}} Thoughts? QuackGuru (talk) 23:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Would support. Better and easier than deleting them through MfD. Can we get a threshold for "stale" though? If we can agree to a certain time limit, we could employ a bot to go through and do the work for us based on date of last edit. I mentioned 3 years as a limit above, but was just a number I pulled out of thin air. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:08, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I think QG is just talking about the specific page that gave rise to this thread, which absolutely should happen. As a general principle I support 3 years after last edited, or 1 year after the editor stopped editing, whichever happens first. But I think anything we come up with here will get contested. I don't have a lot of faith that anything other than "leave it alone" will happen. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:16, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mendaliv: I generally share your pessimism but it's something easy enough to propose and see what folks think. I'd be happy to start the proposal (on VP perhaps) and see where it goes. Don't think it will get far, but would rather try and fail then just let it continue as is. I think your extra 1 year stipulation is a good one. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't find a policy for time limits. Time limits should be added to policy or we are going to end up at AN/I again when another stale draft is found. QuackGuru (talk) 23:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    User:EvergreenFir, VP is a good start. QuackGuru (talk) 23:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @QuackGuru: Yeah, any policy change would have to be over at VP, right? Honestly though I think this mess of an ANI shows the problem well enough to justify a policy change. On another note, I support your proposal if you're just referring to this particular ANI filing. (Assumed/Misread that you mean all drafts and kinda ran with it). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, please make the policy change. My proposal is for the one stale draft. My second proposal is for all drafts as soon as policy is changed. QuackGuru (talk) 23:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:STALE suggests one year, but that's only for userspace drafts. AFAIK, there's no time limit for draftspace. clpo13(talk) 23:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @QuackGuru: @EvergreenFir: @Mendaliv: I drafted a comprehensive RfC about stale drafts some time ago: User:A2soup/MfD RfC. As someone with a lot of experience with the locus of the conflict, I formulated it to address precisely the main points of disagreement. I was told that it would not be helpful, so I didn't open it. Perhaps we could post it to VP or an appropriate talk page? A2soup (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    As I've said before, I think an RFC on policy views is not going to accomplish a ton. If the people who actually !vote on each discussion afterwards make different opinions, are we supposed to disregard that in exchange for what an RFC came up with? We don't close discussions based on what the people in an RFC think the policy should be, we close based on what was actually discussed in the discussion. The bigger issue is eight year old userspace copies of mainspace are being opposed under the guise of "rudeness". It's one thing to disagree with deletion but another to just insult and criticize every nominator. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ekantik/Shilpa Shetty is an example of a perfunctory nomination, with disregard to getting the facts of the details right. In short, it is an example of why the nominator cannot be trusted with his nominations. The error rate is too high. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    What is in the world is wrong with nominating an eight year userspace draft for an article that already has a biography of a living person out there? This is the textbook definition of WP:UP#COPIES. Are we supposed to just continue with changes to the templates, changes to the text and ignore the very real possibility of BLP violations because a user half a decade ago did some work? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Sometimes your write sensibly, sometimes nonsense. Your textbook reading is incorrect, try reading it again. Independent creations on the same topic are not "COPIES". WP:UP#COPIES does not cover BLP problems, if there is a BLP problem, nominate on the basis of the BLP problem. What is wrong with nominating worthless harmless things? I may have forgotten to mention busywork, a failing you are obsessing with. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Honestly though I think this mess of an ANI shows the problem well enough to justify a policy change" No, there is enough of a problem of flagrant disregard of consensus at MFD, WT:MFD, CT:CSD, WT:DRV, WT:N, to say that editors should stop WP:GAMEing to avoid inconvenient lack of consensus, and the so called "problem" of old good faith article drafts in userspace is entirely a manufactured non-problem. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:11, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no functioning system to game here.
    If someone's random user subpage does not exactly fit a narrow reading of a CSD, we are not supposed to bring it to MfD for an ever changing batch of nonsense reasons. Then a couple editors vote to Keep random nonsense pages because they will not consider GNG, but object to a move to mainspace because in their opinion the topic does not pass GNG! That just proves they considered GNG, though they say they can't or will not.
    It makes sense that an active editor's new draft in userspace may not have enough refs or content yet to obviously pass GNG, so we give them a lot of leeway to work on it, but at some point after the editor is long gone, it is crazy not to make a judgement call on the page against GNG and then act on it. Editors who are actively cleaning up are met with attacks, insults, scorn and ridicule, and now dragged to ANi over a stupid situation the complaining editors created with their super narrow interpretation of guidelines.
    Wikipedia is a public space for all to enjoy, kind of like a park. The current situation is like bystanders throwing bottles and insults at volunteers removing trash from a park, claiming someone might come looking for the trash later. Legacypac (talk) 00:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Your WP:GAME (openly declared as noted above) is to take a userpage not deleted at MfD (where WT:N affirmed that the WP:GNG does not apply), and move it to mainspace, knowing full well that it is not appropriate in mainspace, so as to see it deleted at AfD (where the GNG applies). WP:GAMEing is disruption. If you don't like consensus, you should abide anyway or seek to change it. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Charlotte135's behavior

    For months, Charlotte135 (talk · contribs) has repeatedly commented on me at the Charlotte135 talk page in inaccurate and disparaging ways. When I've pointed this out, noting that I would eventually do something about it, Charlotte135 continued, except in ways that do not mention my name; this is seen in spades in this section, which Charlotte135 retitled to take the focus from away from the topic ban. Charlotte135 also has a tendency to follow or track editors Charlotte135 has had significant disputes with, in ways I would categorize as WP:Hounding. For example, as noted here and here, with me, Montanabw and CFCF weighing in, Charlotte135 was hounding Shootingstar88 (talk · contribs). And before Charlotte135 claims that it was because of WP:Copyright issues, I advise editors to look closely at that matter; Charlotte135 had started following Shootingstar88 before the WP:Copyright issues drama Charlotte135 became a part of in that case. And now Charlotte135 is following me. And by that, I mean that Charlotte135 has scoped my entire contribution history and is choosing to edit articles I am clearly involved with, as seen here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. As is clear by this inaccurate summary of my and Montanabw's editing, Charlotte135 is very aware of the type of articles I edit. Charlotte135 stated, "It seems that some editors primarily edit on topics like horses or sexual type topics and then cursory minimal edits on other types of articles to blur their POV pushing." That section shows that Charlotte135 was testing the waters when it comes to what Charlotte135 can edit. For one, the "cursory minimal edits on other types of articles" wording speaks to the way Charlotte135 edits; the vast majority of Charlotte135's edits have been to the domestic violence areas, and related areas, on Wikipedia. Since Charlotte135's topic ban, Charlotte135 has been making minor editors to other articles, as if to indicate "Look everyone, I'm not a WP:SPA. I'm branching out." For two, I mainly edit sexual articles, anatomy articles, medical articles, social topics and popular culture topics. And even though I edit many things on this site, Charlotte135 is suddenly popping up at the medical, sexual or gender articles that I heavily edit, including the obscure or relatively low-traffic ones, as seen with this edit made to the Vaginal disease article, and this edit made to the Facesitting article. Coincidence? I think not.

    When Charlotte135's topic ban is brought up by me, such as in this recent case at Talk:Domestic violence, where I made a point to note that Charlotte135 was continuing a past dispute soon after the topic ban expired, Charlotte135 goes off on an irrelevant and inaccurate tangent about my block log, as if to try to paint me in a bad light and put us on equal bad footing; as seen here, administrator Boing! said Zebedee thankfully commented on my block log after I once again suggested that Charlotte135 actually get informed on my blocks before repeatedly commenting on them inaccurately. In that same section, I noted to Charlotte135, "You are clearly seeking a confrontation with me any and everywhere you can get it. [...] I will not agree to a WP:Interaction ban unless it's a one-way interaction ban where you are not allowed to comment on me or focus on any article I heavily edit. [...] Common sense should tell you to stay clear of me unless necessary. It's nothing but a WP:Hounding attempt by you. If I revert you at any of these articles, you get your confrontation. If someone else reverts me, and I revert back, you can simply show up and invalidly support that person's revert with the excuse that you've edited the article before. You are quite easy to read. Everything you do is so transparent (predictable) to me." As that section shows, Gandydancer and Johnuniq are also still concerned about Charlotte135's behavior. Whenever Charlotte135's disruptive behavior is addressed, Charlotte135 argues that I am simply being a bully, accompanied by a gang, and that my main goal is to discredit. In fact, Charlotte135 still fails to see any valid reason for the topic ban; this is evident all over Charlotte135's talk page. Charlotte135 plays the "I am the victim" card. And in this case at the Domestic violence talk page, Charlotte135 accused me of an agenda for removing a WP:Undue weight piece from the lead. I am at the end of my rope with this editor. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Note: I crossed out the Urolagnia article above, because even though that article was added to my watchlist because of my concern about this this IP who eventually became this editor, I have yet to edit that article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I'll first of all point out that Charlotte135 has edited topics related to the female reproductive system at least as early as last November, while Flyer22 Reborn accumulates hundreds of minor edits to diverse articles daily. That there is some intersection is hardly surprising. The allegedly hounding edits do not seem to be in furtherance of any dispute on those pages, with Flyer22 or anyone else.
    The conflict between Charlotte135 and Flyer22 apparently began in October at Talk:Domestic_violence/Archive_5#Claim_about_male_self_overestimating with a content dispute that Flyer22 almost immediately personalized. I first encountered the issue at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_198#Domestic_Violence_article, where it became quickly apparent that there was a simple resolution to the content dispute. I noted at the time the solution could have been easily reached had Flyer22 simply stuck to commenting on content rather than contributors.
    Rather than accepting this resolution, Flyer22 continued to policy/forum shop by trying to get support from MEDRS Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)/Archive_21. Note especially how CFCF's opinion changes after Flyer22 tells him what to think. Subsequently CFCF began to edit war the policy page itselfWikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Disruptive_editing_on_Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_.28medicine.29_by_CFCF to make it agree with Flyer22. I don't know if Charlotte135's present accusations of canvassing can be supported, but Flyer22 and CFCF should definitely be regarded as a tag team wherever they appear.
    While my attention was elsewhere, Flyer22 brought Charlotte135 to ANI based on the insinuations that Charlotte135 was an MRA and impersonating a woman.[[125]] These are not policy-based reasons, and making these allegations was a conduct violation in itself. Astoundingly, Mark Arsten placed a 3 month topic ban on Charlotte135 rather than boomeranging as would have been appropriate.
    Flyer22's general style of interaction is to make arrogant and imperious demands, often declaring that their preferred changes are inevitable, and that their opponents are not competent to edit in certain areas. This gives the impression of attempting to intimidate editors and exert WP:OWNership of articles. This has in the past been directed towards myself, and is certainly still on display with regard to Charlotte135.[126][127][128][129] It can even be seen in Flyer22's presumptuous refusal to "agree to" a 2-way interaction ban.
    The above notwithstanding, Charlotte135 needs to drop the stick with respect to the question of symmetry or non-symmetry of genders in domestic violence. Regardless of the merits, its a point the community would like to move on from. I suggest a 2-way interaction ban and 3 month topic ban for both Charlotte135 and Flyer22. Rhoark (talk) 22:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    "Perun" IP on an OR spree at 37.201.xx.xx

    I recently noticed an IP adding something unsourced about the supposed Buddhist heritage of a Gallic tribe. It turns out this is a dynamic IP editing as, among probably others:

    Their history is full of comparable edits, adding unsourced (or blog-sourced) content about historic topics most often pertaining to Poland and the god Perun, often on its face unremarkable (but unverifiable) and sometimes quite strange, as here where they consider the current arrival of refugees in Europe a case of "germanisation".

    Is anybody familiar with this individual or MO, and are admin colleagues of the view that action such as mass rollbacks or blocks should be looked into?  Sandstein  09:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    (Non-administrator comment) Calling that original research sounds a bit overly gracious. Nonsense is more applicable, but a descent into bovine scatology may also be warranted. Kleuske (talk) 12:34, 20 March 2016 (UTC)s[reply]
    There's a number of Other IP's, too.
    Moreover, Geradid (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to have a very similar interest.
    There's also a fair amount of quacking going on. Is it duck season or wabbit season? Kleuske (talk) 13:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Give me a list of pages and I'll protect them. I'm pretty familiar with this Perun nonsense. Doug Weller talk 14:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I need to qualify that. It would have to be pages with recent multiple edits relating to this, I can't protect pages rarely edited by this person. I'm no good at range blocks sadly. Doug Weller talk 14:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't have a list of affected pages, or if I did I'd protect them. @Doug Weller:, do we have a community ban on record somewhere so that this stuff can be reverted on sight?  Sandstein  16:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sandstein: Of course you would. Sadly no. This is the first time the Perun nonsense has been brought here. Doug Weller talk 17:08, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Yossimgim IPs

    Yossimgim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continue trolling, edit-warring and lying in edit summaries using dynamic IPs (for now it's 79.176.91.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)). It's almost a month since discussion started here and here, and nothing been done. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    @Triggerhippie4: Still waiting for that SPI to get some admin attention, but what evidence do you have for this IP? Need to support accusation with diffs. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Persistent Disruptive editing on Tao (Entertainer Page) YCPlaer possible WP:COMPETENCE problem

    (non-admin closure) The user was already blocked by EdJohnston 31 minutes ago for a duration of 24 hours, so there's nothing really here to do. Amaury (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    YCplar was warned by 2 Administrators during the last 2 days about making disruptive edits and using videos and fan material as sources and using the page as a fan material repository. Ycplaer was also warned about making larges changes to the page without consensus due to a 3RR violation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ycplaer

    But YC Plaer disregarded those warning and did the same thing

    Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Tao_%28entertainer%29&diff=710982522&oldid=710939200

    Disruptive Editing : YC was warned : Links to videos are not references; Wikipedia is not a repository for fan material.

    After this warnings Ycplaer edited the page again and removed most the the article links provided and replacing them with various fancams, youtube videos from unauthorized sources, one example deleting is the links for the articles about Tao's injuries and adding a bunch of fancams,fan pictures instead.

    This is only example among many others YCplaer reverted a lot of the videos links Drmies removed and deleted a lot of links to articles provided on the page and replaced them with fancams,video sources etc...against the admin's advice.

    Also YC plaer added incorrect information

    Most obvious example YCplaer replaced Martial artist by Martial arts tricking performer, and replacing the Martial Artist occupation by Martial Arts tricking, Tao is a well known Wushu martial artist and martial arts actor. I understand why you may refer to it as martial arts tricking and there is a case to be made that during his days as an Exo member he leaned towards this more , However this is not how Tao promotes himself or has been promoted.

    There is no lack of references about Tao as a martial artist YC player also deleted the link to Wushu on the page and an article source from strait times where Tao mentions learning Wushu and wanting to promote the sport like Jackie Chan. He also talked about learning Wushu in the people in the People in the news interview and being a student athlete, so I can't think of any good reason why YC player would delete the mention that Tao learned Wushu or that he was a student athlete and replace martial artist by Martial arts tricking

    All those changes were made without any justification in the edit summary or talk page, my previous attempt with communicating with YC plaer have failed and the administrator's warnings were disregarded.

    So I think YCplaer should be blocked because the contribution are disruptive and hinders the improvement of the page

    Thanks TaoWoAini (talk) 16:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Disruptive editing to the F1 project

    In October last year a report was made of an IP editor persistently disrupting the F1 project here. A block was issued for a week by user:Diannaa and two further blocks were subsequently issued by the same admin. The IP editor however has continued in much the same vein and several members of the F1 project have spent considerable amounts of time, trying to make something of his sub-standard submissions. There have been seven six recent drafts which have been found to be copy-vios two of which have been WP:TE re-submitted several times without fixing issues noted on review and also removing citation tags. There is a tremendous history of disruptive editing by this editor whose IP address changes sometimes more than once a day. He's now up to more than 100 different IPs in the ranges 92.21.240.0/20 and 88.106.224.0/20. Just some of the history of his edits can be seen at User talk:Bretonbanquet who has been one of the editors involved in 'tidying up'. We have tried several times to engage and leave helpful advice on talk-pages but it is not certain which of them he might have seen and he has been known to just blank the page. Here is a diff of him removing a talk page post by another editor and here is one example of an inappropriate edit summary, although he rarely leaves summaries. The F1 project would be grateful for any assistance you can give as we have run out of patience with this editor who has been given plenty of time and more than enough leeway to edit in a conventional manner. I apologise for the long-winded submission. Please let me know if you need any further info. Thanks. Eagleash (talk) 13:34, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The latest series of posts on the subject at the F1 project is here. Eagleash (talk) 19:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Earlier threads on the subject here and here. Eagleash (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    I second all of the above, and I can say I've rarely come across an editor who takes such little notice of notability guidelines, or indeed, any guidelines. He almost never engages with other editors, and when he does it's usually uncivil; he never uses talk pages or heeds advice, and creates a huge amount of work for others. He has created large numbers of articles and templates, all of which were either copy-violations, unreadable or not notable (or a combination of the three), and all of which required rewriting, merging or deleting by other editors. To make it worse, it's hard to track the guy's activity as he is forever switching IPs; so you can't talk to him or pin him down long enough to get him to understand how things work.
    This has been going on for a few months now, and some of us seem to spend all our time cleaning up after this guy, when we would rather be doing something more constructive. Any ideas will be gratefully received. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm an AfC reviewer, and another issue that was brought to my attention regarding this editor was possibly gaming the system. Anonymous contributors are not allowed to create articles directly into mainspace—that's why WP:AFC was started. However, this user has tried to circumvent the standard AFC article review process by first requesting the creation of a redirect at Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects, then turning the redirect into a non-notable article once it is created—effectively creating an article in mainspace. An example is with March 87P. At 20:12, 1 February 2016, the user submitted this request to WP:AFC/R, asking for a redirect from March 87P to March 87B. The issue is, at that time, March 87B was a redirect. Three minutes later, at 20:15, the same editor converts the March 87B redirect into an article, which was found to be non-notable. Then, a few weeks later, the redirect request was accepted, creating March 87P as a redirect, which an IP in the same range converted to an article about the same subject. Mz7 (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    In relation to the above post, the same editor has recently had deleted, a draft for Wolf Williams, as it was both non-notable and also a copy vio. A re-direct already exists for Wolf Williams to the Williams F1 page. A re-direct has now been requested for "Wolf Williams Racing" , which could mean further attempt to create a Wolf Williams page. Also in relation to the March 87P page, it had to be protected after the IP edit-warred over restoring the re-direct. Eagleash (talk) 22:48, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Meanwhile, the IP keeps going on daily. It would be really appreciated if an administrator had a look into it our gave us some advice.Tvx1 22:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Anyone going to take a look? Tvx1 17:39, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Today, the IP inexplicably removed a mass of content from a F1 article. There's more disruptive editing to be found in their contribs of today. Will someone please take a look at this? Tvx1 18:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Diannaa: for comment as to the level of collateral damage in range blocking 92.21.240.0/20 and 88.106.224.0/20. Blackmane (talk) 01:09, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The most recent contributions have been, I think, from the 92.21.250.0/24 and 92.21.240.0/22 ranges with no other contributions that I can see. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    Another IP-hopper

    User:86.187.163.66. Related to this entry. Eik Corell (talk) 18:22, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    On it. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Another one: ‎User:86.187.174.250 Eik Corell (talk) 22:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    User:86.187.168.239. Related to this entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eik Corell (talk • contribs) 14:12, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Moved above comment from earlier section down to this one for visibility. Pinging Malcolmxl5 as well. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, EvergreenFir, that was handled by Future Perfect at Sunrise, and I've just dealt with another, User:86.187.174.250, as well.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:00, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    "Bad hand" account

    User:Dekkappai Lives is a "bad hand" account of User:Dekkappai, used only to make derogatory comments about editors he disagrees with. This weird little rant vaguely associating a German editor with Nazi abuses [130], with an edit summary emphasizing the other editor's nationality, is a sure signal of bad faith. Underlying account has history of personal attacks. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Dekkappai has not edited in years. User:Dekkappai Lives has made 2 edits this year, neither offensive. I am having trouble seeing what a block would prevent, or what other admin action would be called for. HighInBC 22:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Dekkappai hasn't edited since 2011. The supposed personal attack you point at occurred about a year ago. I'm not sure what you expect us to do about it in this case. SQLQuery me! 22:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    So bad hand accounts are OK as long as they edit infrequently? You may find Dekkappai's commentary "inoffensive", but you're not one of its target. I am. When Dekkappai says that his articles "were targeted for deletion by openly biased editors who create and contribute to totally unsourced articles on obscure, far less notable U.S. subjects such as unreviewed paperback short story anthologies", he's referring specifically to me, and he's being dishonest. As is his comment about "bigoted, puritanical, and culturally myopic editors". There's no "I love porn" exception to the rules against personal attacks, although it's been clear for quite a long time that some folks are loath to enforce them in that context. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 23:01, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The user in question has not made any edits outside of the userspace of the accused main in about 363 days. In fact they have only ever once edited outside of that user's space. The user whom might be his/her main hasn't edited, or made any other sort of action in about 1609 days. I don't see what a block would accomplish at this point. SQLQuery me! 23:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    How long does it take for a course to get approved?

    (non-admin closure) OP also asked on WP:Education noticeboard, which would appear to be the right place, not here. BMK (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hi everyone

    I set up a course some weeks ago, but it still hasn't been approved, and I don't know who can help me with that. Does anybody know whom I can contact?

    Thanks, Erika Payne — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuezes (talk • contribs) 00:49, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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