Talk:Neil Bush

Is "Ignite" a drug, or what?

I found this passage confusing:

In 2002, Bush received a mixed response when he spoke of education while at Whitney High School (a school for gifted students in Cerritos, California). Among the points of his speech, he opined: "We create these prisonlike environments, then we take our hunter-warrior types and label them attention-deficit disordered and put them on drugs." (Bush has often advocated for less use of ritalin and other mind-altering drugs on children) He added that: "Ignite! is designed to make learning fun for "hunter-warrior" kids who don't like reading."

It sounds like Neil Bush is contradicting himself, if you just read this paragraph. Can someone reword it, so it's clear whether he favors or opposes drugging school kids? I would appreciate that. Moon Man 17:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed fraudster category

Removed criminal fraudster category. Not convicted of fraud.--FloNight 03:30, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

No connection with Scientology

What's with the "Scientology" stuff? Just because he testified at a hearing where Scientologists also testified does not mean he is a Scientology advocate. I'm sure democrats also testified at the same hearing. Does that make Bush a democrat? No.

It happened, and the media commented on it, as sourced by the link. Why are you making such a big deal of it? Anti-Ritalin activism is a major Scientology issue, not a major democrat issue, hence your comparison is meaningless. wikipediatrix 21:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

"The media commented on it?" One UPI quote that really says more about Scientology is not credible. Please find other *unique* sources for this connection and post them. Scientology activism isn't what this article is about.

This has nothing to do with Scientology activism, and how is the UPI story not credible?! Not sure I should even bother discussing it with an anonymous IP who doesn't even sign his discussion page posts. wikipediatrix 21:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Well how about me, a different anonymous who does know how to sign posts? First off, I personally can live with the reduced "controversally", etc. statement, as it fits the larger pattern of Neil Bush managing to get latched on to by various dubious groups (e.g., Arab tyrants, Chinese plutocrats, etc) a la Billy Carter. But, Wikipediatrix, I have to say that you open yourself to criticism because your record on this page started out with borderline tin-foil hat statements that fall well within offtopic Scientology soapboxing. While I would normally salute you for your work to unmask Scientology's nature, I think you have lost perspective a little when it comes to some of the things you tried to insinuate on this page. I would also encourage you not to bite the newcomers ("Not sure I should even bother discussing it with an anonymous IP who doesn't even sign his discussion page posts"). I offer these comments as constructive criticism, and I hope you will take them as such.--67.101.68.65 22:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Check the contributors edit history. They are going to every bio with any connection to Scientology, and trying to put anti-Scientology material. Also, please note the different between a news report, and a commentary in a news publication. The two are different. --Rob 18:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Muckrakers aren't credible?

I'd like to have bit more discussion about the removal (twice, by two different IP addresses) of the TPM link. The link supports a two-sentence paragraph. The editors have left the sentences in the article, so apparently that having unsourced information is better than citing a source they don't believe in. Unfortunately, others often don't agree. What concerns me is that:

• Six months or a year or whatever from now, someone slaps a "citation needed" tag on the paragraph.

• No one remembers the source, so the paragraph gets removed.

John Broughton 04:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

My $0.02 is that the citations on the tpmmuckraker.com page are flimsy, but like you say probably better than nothing. You'd think they (tpmmuckraker.com) could at least be bothered to indicate a date for each citation. I would have a bigger problem with the link if it weren't for the fact that I independently know most items on the list to be true. So I can see why other editors have removed the link, even though it's fine with me. --67.101.69.186 14:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

First -- The paragraph is fluff. Parents investing is not noteworthy. International investment is to be expected, especially with this family. Who cares? Second -- If there are "various" sources, why can't they be cited? Third -- What SEC document? Why is it even interesting? Fourth -- Muckraker is an activist site. Not NPOV. The name alone implies bias. Fifth -- Muckraker citations are worthless. No dates. No articles. Just publication name dropping for all we know. Sixth -- I see no reason for such a link for such a lame, obvious statement...except maybe for trying to stir up mud and feed a conspiracy theory. Parting Shot -- Fluff as it is, I think the paragraph can stay, but any citations should be verifiable and neutral. I expect they would be uninteresting, though. 70.249.75.57 19:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason that the investment by Barbara and George Bush is relevant is that she made an donation to a hurricane relief fund that included the requirement that the fund buy software from Neil's firm. Which, as an investor in the firm, she benefits from. Otherwise, I agree that parents investing in a kid's business isn't particularly newsworthy.

You might want to look at the muckraker article in wikipedia, before you continue to attack "muckrakers" as being unworthy of being quoted. Among other things, historically, muckrackers have accomplished a lot of good by publicizing problems that powerful interests (politicans, businesses) don't want publicly discussed. A lot of people have gone (rightly) to jail because of muckrackers. John Broughton 19:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Self-applied labels are often not accurate. Just as a person that describes himself as "cool" is usually a nerd, a site that describes itself as "muckraker" probably is something else. Ergo, no cred. Just as I'm really hip, yo. Word! 205.157.244.33 22:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I understand the Barbara Bush issue. The fund was started by her family. It's her money. Earmarking donation funds isn't unusual. Perhaps she benefits in some way, but people also take tax deductions for charitable donations. What's the diff? Is there a scandal here? Coverup? True conflict of interest? He (or she) who pays the fiddler picks the tune. 207.207.15.18 22:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Scientology

User: 67.101.66.5, who seems to think he WP:OWNs this article and is the self-appointed guardian of it, has AGAIN removed all mention of Scientology from the "anti-ritalin campaign" section" even though the information is fully sourced. There are even MORE sources I could load the section up with here if that's what he really wants. 67.101.66.5 keeps using the "tinfoil" insult regarding my edit, which shows his POV push. What is "tinfoil" about sourced facts as written in legitimate sources such as the UPI news bit, and in Ellen Kingsley's article "Neil Bush's Strange Bedfellows"? I can see no reason why 67.101.66.5 (and his previous incarnations such as 67.101.69.186) can deny that this issue exists. It's not even like I'm suggesting that Bush IS a Scientologist, nor am I suggesting there's even anything WRONG with hanging out with Scientologists. Let the damn sources speak for themselves. wikipediatrix 20:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for coming to the talk page. In my previous and current (see article) attempts to reach some kind of consensus wording, I have used wording that includes information about Scientogists' involvement with anti-Ritalin campaigning. I have simply done it in what I argue is an in-perspective, NPOV manner (sans soapbox speeches re. not helping the millions of ill, etc. - that you are quoting a "source" doesn't change that it is a soapbox speech rather than a historical record). I did a more basic revert on your last edit because (as I stated then), a) there was zero edit summary or other justification, b) the consensus-faulting wording was the exact same that led OTHER non 67.101/100 editors (look at history or talk above) wiped out completely.

I have never denied that this issue exists. I am trying to show you that you have lost perspective. It belongs in context alongside Bush's dalliances with Chinese plutocrats, Arab dictators, Thai hookers, Moonies, etc, which partially his own doing and partially due to his fate under his family pedigree (I expect his Mexican connections to gain prominence soon as well given the current state of the "immigration debate"). I use "tinfoil" because your first few edits on this article strongly implied via weasel words that Bush was a Scientologist himself (which he is most definitely not). Now hat you're provinding edit summaries and joining us on talk, I'll cease to use "tinfoil" in the future. But I do continue insist that you have wandered into soapbox-speech territory in your edits.

Please continue to bring desired changes that you know from previous editing history will be controversial to the talk page first. I suspect some of the other editors will be less charitable when they get back to this article. You will have a better chance of persuading them if you show you are assuming good faith and working towards consensus.--67.101.66.5 22:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Spare me the condescension. Any persons would go to such lengths to continually remove any mention of Scientology clearly have the POV-driven agenda and the axe to grind, not me. Like I said before, if you want to reword it so it sounds less "weaselly" to you, fine, but don't remove valid sources and citations with no better explanation for it than your "tinfoil from a soapbox" line. Your current edit, however, does reinstate mention of Scientology, so I'm content with that for now. And since you brought the subject up yourself, the Sun Myung Moon incident drew considerable controversy and media attention also and should be so noted in the article, rather than glossed over in passing with a single sentence. wikipediatrix 14:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you think my comments are condescension. They are meant to be civil constructive criticism, and I would encourage you to try to take them as such. You continue to mischaracterize my position as one where I seek "to continually remove any mention of Scientology." Yet I have repeatedly tried to simply accord the facts the appropriate tone and context, and I certainly have not continually tried to remove any mention of Scientology. IMHO, that you are so certain that I am undertaking some sort of Scientology-POV agenda, when I definitely am not, is an indicator that you are letting your anti-Scientology POV push you into paranoia. This is what I am trying to show you. As I said a while ago, "While I would normally salute you for your work to unmask Scientology's nature, I think you have lost perspective." I can understand the impuse - my POV outside Wikipedia is that Scientology is a vicious cult. That doesn't excuse actions that violate Wikipedia standards or insinuate things that aren't true.

As for the Moonie stuff, I don't understand your statement that it "should be so noted in the article, rather than glossed over in passing with a single sentence." As you mention yourself, it *is* noted in the article. And if Bush had some more significant connection to the Moonies, that'd be noted, too. But he doesn't; he spoke with Sun Myung Moon, yes, as did many other non-Moonie "peace activists." And it's noted. I don't see how you'd consider that being "glossed over" unless you think there is something more significant/sinister to gloss over.--67.101.66.5 15:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, you are misrepresenting my motives when you say I'm trying to "unmask Scientology's nature". I'm only interested in facts, not POV-pushing, even if it's a POV I happen to support. If I was pushing an anti-Scientology agenda, I wouldn't be spending as much time undoing "L. Ron Hubbard is gay" and "Scientology is a scam" vandalism from Scientology articles as I do. I have no feelings about Neil Bush one way or the other, but I do know that the Bush-Scientology incident, as well as the Bush-Moonies incident, generated considerable hubbub at the time, and should be so noted. It's the controversy that I'm saying should be so noted, not just the incident itself. I'm not saying it's important enough in the big picture that it needs an entire section devoted to it, but I do think it deserves more than a sentence. Or maybe that's just my "paranoia" talking. wikipediatrix 18:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, speaking for myself, I have no objection to the creation of a section that discusses the whole enchalada of Neil Bush constantly creating a stir by showing up alongside this or that controversial group. What I don't think works is quotes of complaints from third parties for every single one of these various groups. This is because in my mind it's the pattern that is notable. Too much detail on each incident (which, again, all seem similar to me) threatens to overload the article and overshadow the complete picture. Once you quote one third party's personal opinion criticizing one controversy, you're sort of obliged to allow it for all controversies, plus counter-opinions. The article becomes a log of the political debate rather than a history of the person. To provide a similar case, I would cite Sheila Jackson Lee, which seems to oscillate between a long dirty laundry list and a more reality-based picture of the person.--67.101.67.61 23:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The Scientology reference clearly misleads the reader as to Neil's beliefs. Neil did NOT testify against "children being medicated for mental disorders". He is against the over-prescription of drugs for learning disabilities. That is a very different thing from what Scientology stands for. Also, I have reason to doubt that Neil and the Scientologists actually testified together. Neil was reportedly scheduled to testify that day, but may have had to reschedule. I can't find any quotes or transcripts from this hearing. Since the article doesn't even mention a specific day or specific quotes, I think it may be just a lie repeated. If someone has true sources, please post them.--66.136.219.177 01:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia section

Trivia sections on Wikipedia are considered very bad form. All imformation within this section should be dispersed to apropriate places within the article. --The_stuart 18:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Neil Bush was scheduled to have dinner with Scott Hinckley on March 30th, 1981 - the day that then President Reagan was shot by Scott's younger brother John Hinckley, Jr. (the Hinckley Family and the Bush family were in the energy industry). Additionally, the Bush family and Hinckley family are related, both having descended from Thomas Hinckley (born 19 Mar 1619, Hawkhurst, Kent, England; died 25 Apr 1706, Barnstable, MA) who was Governor of Plymouth Colony from 1658-1681.

"Whitney reviews [of Ignite!] were less laudatory. "The kids felt pretty strongly that what this was about was lowering the bar...[Bush] was very surprised," [School of Dreams author Edward] Humes recalls. "You had to see the look on his face when one young woman got up and said she liked calculus. He said it was useless. This is the branch of mathematics that makes space travel possible, and he said it was useless." LOL(?)[1]

COW and OCW

Is COW (curriculum on wheels) the Bush clan's dislexic response to OCW (open courseware)? Why is it that emphesis in this country is almost always put on for profit curriculum development for those who can afford it when state produced curriculum could be offered free to everyone? Hire someone from Harvard or Tulane to produce an algebra video on demand lecture series and put it on the internet. Make sure that it has the highest production and content value. Then, maybe, we won't leave any children behind. Please add information in this article to alternatives to private for-profit curriculum development. Also, are any agencies studying possible inappropriate lobbying tactics to keep states' department of education from developing their own curriculum? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.206.125.213 (talk • contribs)

With all due respect, a discussion of alternatives to for-profit curriculum most definitely does NOT belong in this article. (It's not at all clear it should be anywhere else, for that matter - it would be difficult to write a NPOV article that said anything interesting.)

Please note that wikipedia is not a discussion forum. It is inappropriate to ask questions ("Why is it ....?" "are any agencies studying ... ") that are not directly intended to improve the article, particularly questions that seem intended for a discussion about how to make the world a better place. John Broughton 01:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate content ---

With all due respect, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum, but perhaps the article discussion section is. I don't believe that I am too far off in asking for suggestions on where to to include my ideas, which might be appropriate in some article or another. It seems that you don't think my suggestions for links to alternative choices for education are appropriate here, I disagree obviously, and if one is serious, one has to start somewhere. That is why I requested direction from the community rather than editing the article. In any case thank you for your comments.

Additionally, I would still like to know if any organizations, news media, etc. are trying to provide an alternative to Neil Bush's vision of education in America. Certainly alternatives to ideologies are often cited in the wikipedia articles. For example in a Wikipedia article on Robert Kane I found the following:

"In defending libertarian freedom Kane opposes many modern philosophers, most notably Daniel Dennett."

I take this as a precedent within Wikipedia for an alternate vision section of an article. Completeness is, in my opinion, very important. Completeness alows individuals to see as many sides of an issue or facits of a person as possible. Therefore that individual reader is more able to approach critically the subject in question. In my oppinion better informed citizens do make the country better and stronger, and I do not see any problem with Wikipedia articles improving the country or the world. In fact, I thought that was the general idea:-)

Thank you. 24.206.125.213

Certainly there is plenty of room - in some article or other - for discussions of curriculum development. If you're asking for suggestions for existing articles, or ideas for new articles, that could discussion the things you're interested in, that's appropriate. And it would certainly be appropriate to link the Neil Bush article to those articles discussing cirriculum options (at least via a "See Also" section link). Perhaps a good rule of thumb is: where would a reader EXPECT to find a discussion of curriculm development, alternative approaches to education, etc. I'm simply saying that the place for such a discussion is NOT in the Neil Bush article; at best, and that this talk/discussion page should be used (at MOST) to get you to some OTHER article(s) where the ideas you're interested in are covered. John Broughton 13:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and large issues

Please make this article NPOV

Please remove the following text fron the Ignite Learning section:

"Ignite! Learning's non-traditional approach has garnered praise by many of the users to which it is targeted."

This is not a neutral point of view. It reads like Madison Avenue hype. And after all, do we really want curriculum choices made by seven year olds?

I'm not clear on what isn't right about that sentence. The approach is non-traditional. It has been praised by many -not all- of the users. The paragraph goes on to provide a specific case of praise. Also, I'll point out since you mention it that the company's users seem primarily to be middle school students and teachers, not seven year olds. It's not this article's place to judge or discuss whether we want US Eduction "curriculum choices" made by the users of Ignite's products or not. Remember, WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox.--67.101.67.61 13:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want to leave this kind of thing in, you must put in other, balancing points of views,

Additionally, I think at least, some mention should be included of the possible negative nature of a man whose family is involved in setting policy at the highest levels producing curricula that compete with state produced curricula.

I made a slight change to the article last night which has been removed already. What's going on here?

Are some articles open to edit and some aren't. I just don't think that the current article addresses this man's actions in founding Ignite Learning. It should not be taken, without further inspection, as an act of benificence without consequences to the people of this country. What is wrong in stating that "Some people feel that there is a possible ethical problem of conflict of interest in producing for-profit curricula that compete with state funded, taxpayer produced, curricula." As a statement, it is a fact also.

Re. your question "what is wrong in stating...": The problem is that the sentence assumes/implies a situation that just isn't correct. As I said when I removed this sentence: "Texas is an adoption state, Ignite is not an adoption product. Also, TX pays for-profit companies for textbooks, they don't print their own as implied." Namely:

A) Ignite does not "complete with state funded, taxpayer produced curricula". Texas is a textbook adoption state. For-profit (large) commerical publishers (Pearson, Houghton Mifflin, etc) compete to get as many copies of as many of their basal/core education products "adopted" (approved and bought) by the state. Ignite products don't go through the adoption process. They are bought locally by schools/districts that decide to spend bucks from other pools of money.

B) As the previous point probably made clear, the other publications that either do or don't directly compete with those of Ignite are not "taxpayer produced"

C) I doubt that just about anyone finds an "ethical problem of conflict of interest" in education publishers selling their products to schools. And if there were, it would be an indictment of the entire US Education system. That doesn't belong in the Ignite article, let alone the Neil Bush article.--67.101.67.61 13:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If the people of this country are possibly being victimized ny the privatization of licences by this man, isn't that worthy of addition to this article? If Mr. Bush has it within his power, via his very closest family, to influence national and state educationl policy, possibly to the detriment of the nation, and yet chooses to be in this business, shouldn't that be pointed out? Others after all, might recuse themselves seeing that it creates a conflict of interest problem for family members. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.206.125.213 (talk • contribs)

I took out the "many praise" sentence - that's clearly NPOV (even if a dozen testimonials are posted on the company's website - I haven't bothered to look - the sentence is clearly misleading - the issue is what PERCENTAGE of the time the program succeeds, and the improvement versus the extra cost).

If there were verifiable information that the people of this country are ... being victimized by the privatization of licences by this man, sure, that would be worth adding. But when you put "possibly" into that sentence, what you're saying is that wikipedia articles should SPECULATE about what possibly might be happening. So the answer to the first question is "No". The answer to the second question is similar - if there are reputable publications or experts that discuss Mr. Bush's "power to influence national and state educational policy", then sure, they should be quoted in the article, with links so the reader can get more information. Feel free to find these and add these yourself. And if these don't exist, then NO, wikipedia isn't the place to speculate about the power of one person and his company. (If you want my personal opinion, Ignite! is a small company where Neil gets to think he's doing something useful, while his family is able to keep him out of trouble. I also think the company has had, and will have, virtually ZERO impact on the educational system in the U.S., which is highly fragmented - 50 states, many of which delegate authority fully to local jurisdictions; unless Neil is doing things at the federal level [I've seen nothing on that], he isn't a player. I think your time is better spent elsewhere, rather than worrying about this guy.) John Broughton 13:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Texas is an adoption state ---

It's interesting that you mention Texas. I do live in Texas, but I don't believe I mentioned Texas in the discussion. Of course you could find that out via an nslookup. It's still a little creepy that you would. When I say that a company's curricula competes with state produced curricula, I mean all the states. Who ends up owning the licenses for the produced work? Does the state, or is it that the states' tax-payers' dollars are paying to create material that ends up being owned by a private company? I know you think that I am on my soapbox here, and I don't mean to be. I just feel strongly that there is something wrong (ethically) going on here, and I believe that any article that attempts to be complete needs to address this aspect. I know you think I am "wrong-headed", an unnecessary insult in the version section, by the way. Nevertheless, I do not believe my comments in this discussion are out of place. In any case, thank you for allowing me to make the small edit adding "for-profit" - certainly this is not a non-profit or charitable enterprise, and thank you for removing the unnecessary (IMHO) applause section.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.206.125.213 (talk • contribs)

I mentioned Texas specifically because the paragraph in question referred to Mendez, which is in Texas (Austin, specifically). I believe most of Ignite's current business (you mentioned the "COW") is in Texas.

States do not produce their own basal curricula. Publishers do. They own the copyrights. States buy copies of the books. Adoption states (like Texas), choose book quantities at the state level. Districts can then get these books from the state. Even when a publisher produces a state-specific version of a textbook, the choice to do so, and the copyright, rests solely with the state. For instance, a California edition biology book might explicitly mention evolution, while a Texas one may have weasel wording. Non-adoption states let the funding for book choices occur entirely at the lower (district or school) levels.

I'm sorry you interpreted my comment (presumably the "wrong/weird" one) as saying you are (your words) "wrong-headed." I was stating that the addition you made was wrong, as I have discussed in more detail in comments earlier.

As others have also stated, just because you believe something unethical is going on with Neil Bush re. education does not mean it belongs in the article. That's original research. It has to be verifiable reputable public research.--67.101.68.227 03:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to put an emphasis on *REPUTABLE*. I've seen too much political commentary here by nobody pundit bloggers.

Much of it is just speculation and innuendo by people with an ax to grind, political motivations, conspiracy nuts, or the fringe Reptoid crowd. Keep to the facts, please. In context. Verifiable. Without spin.

On other matters, I can't believe the time spent on the Scientology non-issue. If people would do a little digging, they'd find much more interesting things to write about. How about Neil's connection to the Pope, for instance? I don't think there is anything sensational there, but it would be an interesting addition to the article.207.207.15.18 00:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

How dare you make these kinds of statements. Get off your soapbox! You come accross here as some kind of elitist with no tolerance for anyone who has a different perspective. This is precisely the kind of attitude that makes an open project like this difficult. The Wikipedia Organization should turn off your ability to work here if you can't show tollerance and control your name-calling.

By the way, I notice that the small for-profit edit I made has once again been removed. If you are working for a PR firm, or have a similar ax to grind, it doesn't belong here. And for your information, the discussion forum is a good place to figure out whether or not some piece of text should be added or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.206.125.213 (talk • contribs)

I can't agree at all with 24.206.125.213. The "for profit" doesn't make any sense, and it reads poorly. Non-profit organizations (hardly every called companies) go out of their way to emphasize their "non-profit" status, because they are an exeception. Companies are expected to be doing business to make money.

The rest of the rant is just uncalled for.

70.249.75.57 18:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the removal of for-profit npov guidelines state the following:

"...An article can be written in neutral language and yet omit important points of view. Such an article should be considered an NPOV work in progress, not an irredeemable piece of propaganda. Often an author presents one POV because it's the only one that he or she knows well. The remedy is to add to the article — not to subtract from it..."

Please put for-profit back into the article.

24.206.125.213 09:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)BMIKESCI

---

In this case I have to disagree. What you say about businesses normally being for profit is true; however, this company was funded by an ex-president of the United States. Moreover its president and CEO is the brother of the current President. Since these men were or are public servants leading public policy for education, it is therefore important to point out that this is a for-profit business and not a public service. So it is for the sake of clarity that for-profit should be put back in. Moreover it is a indisputably a fact that this company is for-profit.

24.206.125.213 01:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)BMIKESCI

FYI, Neil Bush is neither president nor CEO of Ignite Learning. Maybe you should focus on the Ignite article for these things you think are "important to point out?"--72.255.3.240 11:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you know what Neil Bush's position is at Ignite Learning/ It is not mentioned in the Ignite Learning section. Also, If you don'e mind, please sign your comments. Four tildes and your wikepedia account name will sign your comment. Thank you.

Also do you want to address my question? I think that when the Bush family decides to go into the education business, it should be mentioned somehow in the Ignite Learning section that, in some way, this puts the President of the United States in a conflict of interest position. After all, the Department of Education is a cabinet level position.

I know that the states decide what curriculum is used in the schools, but if the federal government published curricula on the internet, that would give children more access to good materials. The states could also choose some or all of that curicula should they find it appropriate. This would free up funds from the states for things like special education, music programs, arts programs, etc. Of course if the government started publishing these kinds of materials, and made these materials available for free, it would probably put Ignite Learning out of business.

Other governments do this. Look at Irelands skoool.ie of Britains asguru.

24.206.125.213 05:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)bmikesci

Neil Bush is (or was) paid $180,000 per year to (a) have his name associated with the business; some people think that this encourages people and organizations to invest and/or buy products because somehow this gives them an "in" with the President and/or the federal government, and (b) to act as a sort of high-level salesperson for the business. One point of the Washington Post article was that if his name was (say) "Frank Smith", he wouldn't be having nearly as happy a life. That's just the way it is; a wikipedia article isn't the place to complain about the possible unfairness of this.

As for a conflict of interest, the federal government is involved in just about EVERYTHING - there is a hardly a business that isn't affected in some ways by what a federal cabinet-level agency does. So what you're saying is that when someone is elected President, all his/her relatives should cease to hold important positions in businesses, universities, or other governments (e.g., Jeb Bush), since there is an inherent conflict of interest?

And yes, the federal government COULD create cirriculum for free. But there is no evidence that such was the intent of the Clinton administration, so exactly what is the point - that a Republican administration has failed to do something that the previous Democratic administration did not, and that runs counter to the (profesesed) federalist philosophy of the GOP?

Finally, I'm changing the description of the company in a way that I hope satisifies everyone, even if not perfect, so we can all move on to something more constructive, like improving wikipedia articles that are stubs. John Broughton 14:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Outsourcing

Regarding outsourcing jobs to Mexico, please remove the text:

""That's turned out to be great," said Ignite! President Ken Leonard."

It is POV. The laid-off workers certainly don't think it turned out great.

24.206.125.213 02:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)bmikesci

You may want to review WP:NPOV. Quoting the President of a company without judgement regarding a company action is not POV. In fact, the quotation is taken directly from a Washington Post article.--72.255.3.240 11:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's quoted, but the source article is rather slanted. What Leonard thinks "turned out great" is the partnership with Grupo Carso, not the fact that people were laid off. The original article was crafted in a way to make Leonard (and by association, Bush) look heartless. It's too bad this wikipedia article is relying so heavily on "The Relatively Charmed Life..." for source material. 66.136.219.177 01:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That slanted source is the Washington Post. Here's the exact words, which have been edited to make them (I believe) slightly less negative for Bush: Last year, Ignite! also entered into a partnership with a Mexican company, Grupo Carso Telecom. The partnership enabled Ignite! to lay off half of its 70 employees and outsource their jobs to Mexico. "That's turned out to be great," says Ignite! President Ken Leonard.

If you can find a quote by Leonard or Bush or anyone else saying that they're really sorry about the layoffs and they understand the impact on workers and their families, then please add that information to the article. John Broughton 16:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

To be more precise, the *STYLE* section of the Washington Post. Not exactly a source of great business or political journalism. It's slanted. An article starting out with "Ah, it's nice to be Neil Bush." should set off bias alarms.

Here is a more even-handed report of what actually happened: http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2002/10/28/story3.html

Note that the numbers don't line up between the WP and ABJ. I think the Austin Business Journal is probably more accurate.

66.136.219.177 22:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources and Political Commentary

The use of political opinion articles for source material is getting old. The quality of this article would rise dramatically if the sources didn't have something to spin.70.113.208.174 03:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Attacking information in an article because it comes from a less-than-totally neutral source is getting old. Wikipedia policy allows information from Salon, Slate, the National Review, the Heritage Foundation, AEI, the Nation, American Prospect, etc., etc. See: Wikipedia:Reliable sources

When I have some more time, I'm going to remove "Salon magazine says" because (a) "Salon" didn't say, a writer said, (b) and because the wikipedia norm is NOT to mention what magazine or newspaper published information in the text of the article. John Broughton 17:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead and quibble about minor wording. Put the writer's name in their if you want, I don't care. It makes the citation more accurate.

Again, you don't seem to get the difference between "reliable sources" and "opionion and commentary". Someone else has addressed these issues with you, so I'm not going to plow over old ground.

I'm sorry that you don't feel it is the "wikpedia norm" not to mention the magazine or newspaper, but in this particular article it is necessary. Those articles are full of innuendo, opinions, and other low blows. There ARE some major sources that give the facts without the negative spin and commentary...why don't you cite those? Possibly because they don't fit your POV? Having an even-handed article trumps attempts to conform to a "wikipedia norm".

I do object to your attempts to separate the so-called "facts" and the sources they come from. By using the references as you recently have, it obfuscates that they are opinions and commentary.70.113.208.174 20:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Bush-Berezovsky Ties

John Broughton, in your own words you said, "... Feel free to add back when you provide a source for the info ...". Despite the fact that you were wrong in the first place due to the fact that the source was there all along (Boris Berezovsky), I explained that to you AND reaffirmed it by listing the wikipedia article as the source to hopefully end your confusion.

Despite meeting your request, you now blatantly go against your word (and the spirit of wiki colloboration) and completely remove the section entirely. Not to mention, you never made any attempt to discuss the section on the Talk page earlier before you deleted a huge section of it because you made the erroneous assumption that there were no sources while all you had to do (ironically enough) was read the Boris Berezovsky wikipedia source article that was embedded into the section from the get go.

Your statements via history:

11:08, 14 October 2006 John Broughton (Talk | contribs) (rv per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced negative material. Feel free to add back when you provide a source for the info.)

John, I'm going to follow Wikipedia policy and try to iron this out with you on the Talk page despite your hostile and possibly biased actions. Please sufficiently explain on this Talk page why you said one thing and did another. It smells of bias and agenda, John... not policy.

And... if not... then why did you so blatantly go back on your word? I met your demands and then some. When I did that, you acted vindictively by deleting the entire section and now making up new demands as if your previous words meant absolutely nothing. You said point blank for me to "feel free" to add back the info once I "provided a source for the info". Not only was the source ALREADY there, I went ahead and made it more clear by naming the Boris Berezovsky page as the source directly. I met your demands.

And now... (after going against your word already, etc.) you say that the section made no effort to mention the libel suit? That's a blatant misstruth. Did you not read this? or did you miss it like you missed the source earlier? You know, the part that said, "... Boris sued Forbes magazine for making a similar claim against him and forced a retraction. ..."?

Well, in yet another attempt to appease you I've made it hopefully more clear for you, it now says, "... Boris sued Forbes magazine for making a similar claim against him and forced a retraction after winning his libel suit against them. ...". I've also edited out the listing of all the specific crimes Boris stands accused of so hopefully it makes him look like more of a prince for you.

I held up my end, John. Why don't you show better character, hold up your end and honor your very own words? If you are trying to make the article better then EDIT things to improve them... a hachet job without a discussion isn't the way to go. Please stop editing in a warlike matter and discuss this with me here on the Talk page like you are supposed to do.