Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive224

DHeyward

Sanction has been lifted, so closing this with no action. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning DHeyward User who is submitting this request for enforcement Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 09:33, 7 January 2018 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested DHeyward (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced WP:ARBAPDS, "banned for one month from all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed" and [1] Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it [2] That would be an edit "about" Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and Joe Scarborough. I have this vague notion that these individuals have something to do with "post-1932 American Politics". Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any See above If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) See above Additional comments by editor filing complaint Sorry about this, but this appears to be a blatant violation of the recent topic ban, which looks almost WP:POINTy to me. I don't know, maybe DHeyward has some explanation for it. (DHeyward does not mention or bring up his topic ban in that edit so this cannot be reasonably construed as an exception which seeks to clarify the nature of the sanction) @NeilN: - wasn't his appeal already declined? Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [3] Discussion concerning DHeyward Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by DHeyward Statement by Mendaliv Bleh. Just looks like a ham-handed attempt to appeal the appeal that got closed at AN the other day. I don't think AE should do anything about it since, honestly, it's pretty clearly just an attempt to appeal to a higher power. That said, DHeyward should understand that if not for the fact that it appears to be an appeal a sanction to Jimmy Wales, who presumably has authority to overturn the sanction, that post would not be a good idea. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 09:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC) @Volunteer Marek: He actually does obliquely bring up the appeal. The first diff is DHeyward's edit to the Scarborough article that factored into the ARCA, and the second diff is TonyBallioni's statement in that ARCA that the Scarborough article counts. I'll grant you that it's not an obvious "Hey overturn this ban!" (which, knowing how Jimmy Wales' talk page works, wouldn't accomplish anything), but it's pretty obviously what DHeyward is going to try and sell eventually if he gets a response. Even if DHeyward isn't going for a full-on appeal, he's at least trying to get Jimmy Wales to say it looks like his revert at the Scarborough article falls within BANEX, which he'd then march down here to start the whole appeal process over again claiming (incorrectly) that the entire ARCA rose and fell on the edit at Scarborough. Anyway, my point is, petitioning the higher powers for relief or clarification isn't something AE should be in the business of prohibiting. If DHeyward goes beyond that, then by all means lower the boom, but not at this point. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 10:02, 7 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by The Rambling Man Common sense anyone? Another editor gone, what a proud moment! Happy 2018! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Kingindian Jimbo's talk page is recognized on Wikipedia as a special page, and functions as a de facto forum for many things. Please don't be pedantic and block for this. It is really petty of Volunteer Marek to even bring it here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishes Jimbo has no authority to resolve this. Therefore, talking at his talk page about Clinton can not be viewed as a "legitimate and necessary dispute resolution" by any reasonable account. The comment by DHeyward was a forum shopping on a talk page of a WP administrator. I agree with Dennis Brown. My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Of course this could be easily left without action. However, one needs to consider the behavior pattern by the user, i.e. appealing their one-month editing restriction on AE, AN and Arbcom and simultaneously violating their topic ban on the talk page of Jimbo and retiring. I think you should do something unless you want to allow making a mockery of WP:AE, and the only reasonable course of action is the one suggested by Dennis Brown. My very best wishes (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Sir Joseph I think rightly or wrongly, most people here are under the impression that TBAN's don't apply to Jimbo's page. I also echo Kingsindian's comment. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof Having myself been topic-banned in the past, I made a couple impassioned (but fruitless) posts on Jimbo's talk page arguing my case, and was not sanctioned for it. I feel like engaging in lengthy discourse might be construed as disruptive of the ban, but as noted above, Jimbo's talk has traditionally allowed this. I did not enjoy editing under the topic ban precisely because I didn't want to have to look over my shoulder every edit wondering if someone was going to jump on me and drag me to this dramaboard - so as much as I have disagreed and continue to disagree with DHeyward, I empathize with him. I suggest that for everyone's sake, we step back a bit. Egregious violations would be one thing, but this is not that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Ryk72 I had tentatively drafted something glib here, and then thought better of it. This seems, for want of a better word, incredibly petty. Some editors, when they feel slighted, maligned or wronged, lash out with personalised accusations of incompetence, bias, and auditory failure; others might drop a perhaps pointed note on the Talk pages of the great Jimbo. The first behaviour, discussed above, below & elsewhere, seems to be, if not acceptable, then at least accepted. Traditionally, the other has been covered as Render unto Caesar. One would hope that this instance could be considered accordingly; that this be swiftly and summarily closed; and we could all move on with "improving Wikipedia". NOthing is bettered by this filing remaining open, least not ourselves. I'll also note that a recent pattern of referring WP:AE filings for ban breaches to the previous sanctioning admin is not always conducive to removing heat from situations where the sanctioned editor might already feel victimised. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 12:08, 12 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning DHeyward This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I came here after Andrew Davidson's statement at ARCA that pointed out what Davidson considered a TBAN violation based on these edits to Brian Krzanich, the CEO of Intel, where a significant portion of the article discusses Krzanich's interactions with Trump. I was expecting (slash dreading) seeing an AE request on that. I consider these both to be edge cases (I can see Mendaliv's arguments that it was more of an appeal to Jimmy Wales of the original sanction). At the same time, I consider both of these edits to follow the pattern of testing the limits of a topic ban: the coversation on Jimbo-talk was part of a broader conversation on a perceived anti-conservative bias on en.wiki, and was using his sanctions as an example. I'm not sure either quite crosses the TBAN line (the Jimbo-talk certainly would if it weren't for the factor of the original sanction.) Given that this is at ARCA, I think we should be very careful about how this is handled, and would welcome more views from my colleagues. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC) Also, just as a note, that while I do not consider myself involved i.r.t DHeyward as I have only had administrative actions towards him, I think it is unwise for an admin who's sanction has been appealed to arbcom to be the one blocking or taking other actions while the appeal is pending. I made my statement above as the original sanctioning admin as that view is often requested. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2018 (UTC) In my view, this is an actionable topic ban violation. The ban is being appealed at ARCA, but as the various templates and procedures make clear, a ban remains in force until an appeal is successful. The edit at issue relates to contemporary US politics and politicians and is therefore within the scope of the topic ban. An enforcement block is therefore appropriate. In view of the block log of DHeyward, I recommend a block from between 72 h to 1 week. Sandstein 16:56, 7 January 2018 (UTC) I found the comment to be rambling and unhelpful, but I wouldn't have thought about it in the context of a topic ban (if I had known about it at the time). It's a technical violation, but I would not overweigh it. On the other hand, Tony makes a good point about limit testing. If there is a sanction, I think a short block is sufficient, to underline the seriousness of the TBAN. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC) Arbitrator comment. I am one of the arbitrators who is reviewing the ARCA appeal. The AE administrators can do as they think best, and I don't speak for any arbs other than myself, but it will be much easier for me to review a sanction appeal if the situation is not a moving target. Addendum: I see that DHeyward has posted a retirement notice today, while I was in the process of reviewing his appeal and this thread. I am sure that is not an outcome that anyone here desired. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC) In consideration of Newyorkbrad's request, I think we should hold off from acting on this enforcement request until the ongoing appeal is resolved. As to the retirement notice, my experience is that almost all such notices posted under circumstances such as these are temporary, so there's no need to take the notice into account. Sandstein 08:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC) From a technical persepective, this is unquestionably a violation of the Tban. From an enforcement perspective, this is an edge case for obvious reasons, including the place where the violation took place and the lack of disruption it caused to readers and editors (exactly zero). We can ignore any other appeal (that is outside of our jurisdiction) and ignore any "retired" banner (which history has shown us is usually temporary). This is one of those cases where my gut says the sanction rage would be from "very strong warning" to "24 hour block", or better yet, extend the tban another 30 days. It is a Catch 22, I'm aware, which is why extending is likely the best solution. I don't think we can completely ignore it, but looking at the totality of circumstances, we need to be careful to not go overboard on sanctioning or it quickly becomes punitive. He knows what he did, a block isn't likely going to be effective in preventing disruption past the expiration of the block. If our goal is to create a situation that has the highest likelihood of encouraging them to NOT violate the terms again, extension of the tban makes sense. We could block in addition, but it seems pointless given the total circumstance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC) I have no issue with waiting until the appeal has run its course. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC) I would view discussing a sanction at Jimmy's talk as somewhere on the outer edge of the "Engaging in legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, that is, addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum" language of BANEX and am very reluctant to sanction for it. GoldenRing (talk) 08:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Had the discussion focused on the sanction rather than the merits, I might agree. I'm even willing to cut a little slack for most anything on Jimbos page, but my reading of the diff is that he focused on the content being wrong or right and not so much on whether the sanction was wrong or right. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC) Hold until appeal is resolved. --NeilN talk to me 16:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @Volunteer Marek: It's at ARCA (where you've posted) and the arbs haven't dismissed it out of hand. I'd like to hear what they have to say. --NeilN talk to me 19:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Anmolbhat

Closed with no action. Anmolbhat self-corrected some unnecessary rudeness, so no sanction is required. I would note that the "civility restriction" is difficult to enforce short of a personal attack, as no two groups of people agree on what does and doesn't breach civility standards. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:52, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Anmolbhat User who is submitting this request for enforcement JosephusOfJerusalem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Anmolbhat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log#India-Pakistan_2: A civility restriction. Any suggestion that any editor is not editing in good faith will lead to an immediate block. Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 09:53, 10 January 2018 Here Anmolbhat says ″I also doubt the credibility of your account as well as Dilpa kaur. Registered during 18-25 October 2017 and engaging in same POV pushing on same days.″ This is a violation of the good faith requirement as its basically casting WP:ASPERSIONS against me. 10:34, 10 January 2018 He has removed part of his bad comment but not fully. This part (″ I also doubt the credibility of your account as well as Dilpa kaur″) remains. Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 16 December 2017 Blocked for copyright violations after several warnings. Additional comments by editor filing complaint Besides casting aspersions in spite of the good faith sanction on all Kashmir conflict related topics, not only has Anmolbhat broken them in full awareness of his violations, but he even has a history of being blocked for introducing copyright violations[4] despite being warned several times for their copyright violations.[5][6][7][8] I don't think this user is willing to learn or abide by our policies and since their editing is generally tendentious and unconstructive[9][10][11] they should be blocked. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [12] Discussion concerning Anmolbhat Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Anmolbhat I am not sure if there are such restrictions. Behavior of JosephusOfJerusalem is too concerning. He is edit warring on Kashmiris, showing his incompetence in judging sources at Talk:Kashmiris#Kautilya3's new edits, and Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus where he is also denying the responsibility of Hizbul. Also that he has to cite outdated diffs as justification for this report. As far as my block is concerned after my block on Copyright Violation I haven't violated any policy but JosephusOfJerusalem can show if I have. On talk page, he was asked about it, but he couldn't backup his claim, but it seems that he prefers to stand by his misleading statement.Anmolbhat (talk) 07:57, 11 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by D4iNa4 Filer should consider reading WP:DR. It details "what to do when you have a dispute with another editor". Just don't expect others to block your critic over the things that happened more than half a year ago. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Anmolbhat This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. RegentsPark is the administrator that imposed this restriction, perhaps it is best if he reviews the case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:52, 10 January 2018 (UTC) RegentsPark hasn't edited in a few days, and I'm researching some other aspects of the case, which shouldn't stop anyone else, but wanted to update here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:40, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Raymond3023

Appeal declined per this discussion here, with the original sanction changing to NeilN's modified sanction. —SpacemanSpiff 11:52, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Raymond3023 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Raymond3023 (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Sanction being appealed WP:ARBIPA [13] Administrator imposing the sanction NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification. Diff of notification. Statement by Raymond3023 I am sanctioned for "misrepresenting what sources say and a repeated failure to understand this issue", there hasn't been any "repeated failure to understand this issue", I have never been alleged of misrepresenting sources ever. NeilN said I am responsible for the misrepresentation of the source on an article,[14] that I was originally attempting to rescue from a G5 deletion, "mostly because it is notable and meets WP:LASTING".[15] Though he is correct about it and I will always remember that and that's something I had already acknowledged that I should be more cautious with checking the content on the article that I am rescuing from G5,[16] NeilN still went ahead to sanction me despite without giving any other admin a chance to discuss, despite he had echoed that unless "another admin objects, I'm thinking of implementing a three month topic ban".[17] Again, I will be more cautious with checking article and sources when I am taking responsibility of G5, but I find this sanction to be unjustified. Raymond3023 (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2018 (UTC) NeilN, I have been always editing a number of different subjects. As for the diff that you have shown as "in the past", you need to know that my edits were accepted. Since the article(2006 Bhiwandi lynching) is going to be kept I am not understanding what you actually deemed to be disruptive. You could've simply asked me to modify the article in place of a topic ban. It seems largely WP:PUNITIVE for something that has been already fixed before you placed topic ban. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC) NeilN, it seems that you are misrepresenting my statements. I was only asking you to clarify your objections, and the article had already went through enough changes when I replied to your message, it was already going under the process of editing now, and I was collaborating with that in place of reverting others. You seem to be implying that I was deliberately misrepresenting sources when that was not my intention at all, I was working to make the article better after agreeing with the suggested edits.[18][19] And again, the only problem here was that I had to be more cautious with taking the responsibility, but I have acknowledge that, didn't I? Raymond3023 (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: it didn't took me any longer to acknowledge where I was wrong, same with Forbes, given my major aim was to get rid of it since there were many problems with the statement, as I had described on talk page and most editors agreed with it, with one editors had also said that Forbes is not enough for such a claim. But finally, my version was accepted. Same as here, it doesn't take me time to acknowledge where I am wrong. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2018 (UTC) NeilN, I had acknowledged on talk page that Forbes link was a reliable source, however there was no consensus on talk page to include it. Raymond3023 (talk) 18:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: You had mentioned that "I would be willing to go with a formal warning about sourcing, indicating that further similar instances will result in a topic ban/block", I am ready to accept it and guarantee that you won't have to revisit this issue again. Raymond3023 (talk) 09:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: Yes some sources were either unreliable or contradicted the mainstream opinion as discussed on talk page of these articles, and my aim (on Vastu Shashtra) was that more sources could be discovered for the information that was being removed, as suggested by other editors as well. I also found the sources as well, the then disputed section was is now backed up with the sources that I had discovered. In fact I had fixed the misrepresentation of source on one of these article.[20] I would say that these were simply content disputes. Raymond3023 (talk) 14:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Vanamonde93, you are misrepresenting the source[21] here by calling it a "forbes list". Yes that source is an opinion piece since it was written by a contributor not staff, there have been many WP:RSN discussion about such sources and there was discussion about this particular source on Talk:Dangal (film)#Estimates, where we agreed not to add the opinion piece in question. The "article critical of Dalit politics" that you mentioned, you should know that information like "'epidermic determinism' of V.T. Rajshekar" was redundant for the article and it was not fitting on a section like "Religion" at all, although I did merged the content that could be merged into other sections. And the last edit that you mentioned was adhering to WP:BRD and had been supported by most other editors and was in compliance with the TFD outcome. Raymond3023 (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2018 (UTC) I had been only restoring what was removed without explanation[22][23] on Achieved status. Raymond3023 (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: let me confirm a few things here. Some diffs are exaggerated here, for example [24] was not a revert, but we were attempting to reach consensus by editing. What do you mean by "confirmed" users? 10 edits and 4 days or 500 edits and 30 days? There are less than 600 "confirmed" users on Wikipedia. What if the user is violating BLP/copyrights? No question about other points though. Raymond3023 (talk) 00:45, 10 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: Sure, let's move on with these terms. Raymond3023 (talk) 00:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC) Sitush, I missed your message here earlier. I can still clarify that my "position regarding notability" is correctly represented by D4iNa4, I only said on talk page that if there was a policy to merge all stubs to a bigger article, we would go for it but right now policy allows you to make stub that pass notability policies, thus we can retain small articles. Raymond3023 (talk) 03:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by NeilN This comes out of a discussion here. Raymond took responsibility for article content here and here. Editors looking at the discussion on Bishonen's page will see the very first post identifies the issues with sourcing. My query to explain how the references backed up article content was ignored. A follow up reveals that Raymond did not see anything that was unsupported. A third post (repeating Vanamonde's points) finally got them to admit the text misrepresented the sources. Given there are issues with the sockpuppet's other articles Raymond restored and there are edit summaries in the past like this, I felt it would be good if Raymond could show how careful he is with sources in other areas. --NeilN talk to me 16:57, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @Raymond3023: The article is the symptom, not the core issue. The core issue is your misrepresentation of what sources said and complete failure to understand the issue. Vanamonde93 clearly pointed out the misrepresentations in their first post. You made several subsequent posts, finally asking, "What do you actually find unsupported there?". This indicates you either didn't read the sources after Vanamonde93's post or actually did read the sources and somehow came to the conclusion that "Muslim mob" and "two radical Muslims" was supported until it you were confronted again about it by me. Editors cannot behave this way about sources, especially in this area. --NeilN talk to me 17:26, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @Sandstein: Not quite. It's not my view Raymond3023 took responsibility. He stated he took responsibility twice as shown in the diffs. And please see my subsequent post above. --NeilN talk to me 17:30, 8 January 2018 (UTC) If admins think the topic ban is too harsh then I would be willing to go with a formal warning about sourcing, indicating that further similar instances will result in a topic ban/block. I am concerned about this editor's ability to read sources given the unrelated Forbes diff. --NeilN talk to me 17:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC) D4iNa4, the reason why articles should be G5'd in this area is because they're often filled with POV that the sockmaster is trying to push. Your characterization of this on 2006 Bhiwandi lynching as "rather a minor issue" is concerning. --NeilN talk to me 17:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC) GoldenRing, what do you think about Raymond3023's statement about about the Forbes source? "[G]iven my major aim was to get rid of it" is in no way a good justification for a misleading edit summary. --NeilN talk to me 17:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC) 42.111.133.233, please disclose your prior account per WP:SCRUTINY. --NeilN talk to me 22:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC) GoldenRing I believe the sanction was appropriate but am always open to what is "more appropriate". Raymond3023, do you have any comments on the evidence presented by Ms Sarah Welch? --NeilN talk to me 13:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC) If I have the process right, Raymond3023 can re-appeal any modified sanction I place upon him so in the interests of not doing this all over again, I'll propose it here first: Fox six months Raymond3023 will: Not remove any WP:G5 tags from WP:ARBIPA articles Abide by WP:1RR on WP:ARBIPA topics (IPs and unconfirmed editors excepted) Ensure the sources he's using fully and accurately back up the content he's proposing. He will be required to produce the necessary excerpts from sources if challenged by an experienced editor Take care not to misrepresent the validity or reliability of a source Failure to abide by any one or more of these conditions may result in an immediate topic ban or block. Raymond3023 do you agree to these conditions? --NeilN talk to me 21:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Re-pinging @Raymond3023: --NeilN talk to me 21:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC) @Raymond3023: You will have to observe WP:1RR with all autoconfirmed editors - 10 edits, 4 days. WP:1RR has the same exemptions as WP:3RR - reverts for vandalism, BLP violations, etc., don't count. See WP:3RRNO for the full list. --NeilN talk to me 00:53, 10 January 2018 (UTC) I've recorded the modification here. Issues were raised about other editors but I believe they have little merit and the appeal should be closed. --NeilN talk to me 01:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Vanamonde93 Since I brought this to NeilN's attention, let me supply that evidence once again. Here is the sequence of incidents which prompted this ban: 1) I tagged a number of articles created by the blocked sock John Jaffar Janardhan for CSD#G5, including 2006 Bhiwandi Lynching. 2) Raymond3023 reverted my tags, including on the aforementioned page. 3) I restored the tags, including at the aforementioned page. 4) Raymond3023 posted to the talk page of that article, "taking responsibility" for it. 5) I noticed that the article contained severe source misrepresentation, and posted to Bishonen's talk page, asking her to deal with it. 6) Despite being asked explicitly by NeilN about the source misrepresentation, Raymond3023 denied any wrongdoing, and judging by the appeal is still unable to see that what he did was a problem. So, I recommend this appeal be declined. Vanamonde (talk) 17:24, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @Sandstein: Please take a look at the links I have provided here. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @Sandstein and GoldenRing: If the issue were limited to simply flouting WP:V, I'd agree with you. As Sitush says, though, the text in question flouted verifiability with the obvious intent of pushing an anti-Muslim point of view. Religious and nationalist conflict is at the heart of our trouble with ARBIPA topics, and violations such as these are not to be taken at all lightly. Vanamonde (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC) (re-sign for ping Vanamonde (talk) 03:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC)). I could take a good guess as to the identity of the IP, but they are likely to complain about outing if I do so. So, until they disclose their account, let me just say that when an IP who admits to having a previous account jumps to the defense of an editor who was protecting the work of a blocked sock at an obscure noticeboard, I find it very suspicious. Vanamonde (talk) 03:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: If we're now looking at further instances of a problematic approach to sources, there's plenty of evidence at hand. There's another instance of referring to a Forbes list as an opinion piece. An instance of removing an opinion piece critical of Hindu-nationalism, and a scholarly article critical of Dalit politics, but keeping an opinion piece critical of Zionism. Oh, and there's this gem, too, which is particularly ironic given the articles which Raymond attempted to keep, thereby beginning this dispute. Vanamonde (talk) 14:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC) More, admittedly only partially related to Indian politics: the addition of completely unsourced original research related to achieved versus ascribed status. Vanamonde (talk) 15:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by D4iNa4 Raymond3023 had to be guided about WP:G5 that when you are taking responsibility you are responsible for every word of the article. But that's it. Looking at the content in question, it is not even vandalism, copyright or BLP violation. It is rather a minor issue and Raymond was collaborating on talk page. FWIW, Raymond is correct about the notability of the article, and should be appreciated for contesting the unwarranted speedy deletion. Compared to most of the editors in this area, Raymond is not disruptive, he is rather a knowledgeable editor who already realized his mistake prior the topic ban. Since the sanction was unwarranted and apparently punitive, I am supporting removal of the topic ban. D4iNa4 (talk) 17:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Sitush I've done a very small bit of very significant fixing at the 2006 Bhiwandi lynching article and opened a significant discussion on its talk page. D4iNa4 characterising the problems there as being "minor" is very disturbing. The article was quite obviously an anti-Muslim hatchet job and I'm afraid that as such it falls near the very heart of our existing discretionary sanctions regimes. Stoking communal pressures like this is not a "minor issue" and I am alarmed at that suggestion from someone whom I've seen editing Indic articles quite a lot. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Addendum: D4iNa4 also incorrectly represents Raymond3023's position regarding notability of the article, as that talk page makes clear. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Raymond3023 Comment by Winged Blades of Godric Comment--A G5 deletion tagging can't be classified as warranted/unwarranted.Also, when you're taking responsibility for G5ed articles you ought to be very sure about the content, for the community does take a very dim view of sockpuppets and any knownful association to them.Winged BladesGodric 17:40, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Comment by Ms Sarah Welch There are serious sourcing issues with Raymond3023 edits, far beyond the article in question. See, these three articles for example: Vastu Shastra: Raymond claims sources are reliable and support the text. No, they are not per Joshua Jonathan, and more detailed analysis confirms source misrepresentation and OR. See the whole talk page for more tendentious arguments by Raymond3023, such as here. Bhimbetka rock shelters: Raymond3023, my response. Kalki: Raymond alleging "enough sources" and misrepresenting something as fringe, my response asking for sources to back up their allegations. No response from Raymond3023. Mere repetition and TE: Raymond's claim, my response, Raymond alleges scholarly sources are unreliable, my request for evidence. No response again. I support NeilN's ARBIPA action. Maybe it was too short, measured, modestly trying to encourage behavior modification, as NeilN's actions generally tend to be. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: Raymond senses the issue here but is not fully understanding our concerns. Finding more sources is not our concern, we welcome such good faith efforts. The concern is that his summaries do not reflect the source, and repeatedly reflect an intent that is neither neutral nor constructive. The edit warring with admins and seasoned editors such as Joshua Jonathan to restore misrepresented dubious content makes it worse, repeatedly running to RPP for full page protection of articles with dubious / POV-y / inflammatory content more so. Their willingness to quote wikipedia rules far exceeds their willingness to quote the source. All this needs to stop. Plain and simple, without defensive arguments. Raymond comes across like a smart person and one who can possibly reform as Kautilya3 notes, but he needs to consider some behavioral changes. Here are three suggestions: [1] Voluntarily accept no more than 1RR in ARBIPA space articles if the other editor is admin or a significant contributor (>2,000 edits); [2] If in dispute, he must quote a few complete lines/excerpts from the source plus give link or source info with page number on the article's talk page, with that 1RR; and [3] Less trips to RPP when the other parties are admins/seasoned editors. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Comment by (IP) This is a user from Hyderabad India ,I used to edit Wikipedia but quit in 2016,If anyone wants to know my previous account can disclose it privately.The Edits were made by User:John Jaffar Janardan not by Raymond3023 who neither reverted nor added the content only removed the deletion tag as the subjects are clearly notable .If there is a case of pushing anti-Muslim point of view ,It was done by User:John Jaffar Janardan the articles created when I used to edit were done in 2016 and were never edited by Raymond3023 until they were tagged by Vanamonde .This article Paras Rajput was POV deleted after being tagged by Vanamonde .It was No consenus in a AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paras Rajput hence should not been speedy deleted .Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement should not be used to settle disputes over content issues of Vanamonde and other editors.Again the issue over sources discussed in talk in Vastu_shastra is a Multi editor discussion Ms Sarah Welch should have disclosed her previous account User:ApostleVonColorado and was earlier under sanction which the user is concealing. 42.111.133.233 (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC) :@MastCell: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement should not be used in content disputes which are multi editor and almost all of them have discussed in talk and it was never reverted or inserted by the concerned editor but done by another editor in 2016 a editor only removes the deletion tag and there is no revert warring.42.111.133.233 (talk) 22:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Comment by Capitals00 @Sandstein and GoldenRing: You have analyzed what Raymond did, but admins should also look at the misconduct of Vanamonde93. As per the Wikipedia:Deletion policy, "Speedy deletion is meant to remove pages that are so obviously inappropriate for Wikipedia that they have no chance of surviving a deletion discussion", yet Vanamonde93 still tagged the article that is likely going to survive a deletion discussion and policy also notes that "If there is a dispute over whether a page meets the criteria, the issue is typically taken to deletion discussions", but Vanamonde93 edit warred over the tag [25] and made a misleading claim on edit summary that Raymond is "an involved editor", regardless of the fact that Raymond never edited the article before. This battleground mentality doesn't end here. After restoring the tag in place of bringing it to Afd, Vanamonde93 made no attempt to fix the content issue and made no input on talk page either,[26] but went to report an admin without notifying Raymond by using the Echo notification system or by posting a message.[27] Given that neither has clean hands, I think both Raymond and Vanamonde should be warned. Capitals00 (talk) 05:24, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Comment by Kautilya3 I support NeilN's sanction. Raymond3023 has been walking on the edge for a long time (see Ms Sarah Welch's input), and it was only a matter of time before he got caught out. I also think Raymond is capable of reform, and three months will likely do it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 06:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Raymond3023 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. @NeilN: Am I summarizing the reasons for your sanction correctly as follows? 2006 Bhiwandi lynching was (and is now again) nominated for speedy deletion. Raymond3023, in their only substantial edit to the article, removed the speedy deletion template with the reason "per WP:BANREVERT, subject meets WP:LASTING". You took the view that, in doing so, Raymond3023 took responsibility for the article's contents, including the first two references, which do not back up the assertions in the first two sentences of the article, namely, that "a Muslim mob" burned two Indian policemen alive. When challenged by you about this, Raymond3023 said that they were mainly concerned with notability and that "next time I would be more cautious when contesting G5". On the basis of these facts, you topic-banned Raymond3023 for three months "for misrepresenting what sources say and a repeated failure to understand this issue." Is this about it? Sandstein 17:23, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Thanks, Vanamonde93, I missed the part where Raymond3023 wrote that they were "taking the responsibility of the article". Under these circumstances, I think NeilN was correct to characterize this behavior as improper, namely, adding content not verifiable by reliable sources relating to a highly sensitive topic, i.e., murder and religious violence. Whether it deserved a sanction for misconduct, and specifically this sanction, is less clear to me. Verifiability issues are primarily content issues, and arbitration does not address these. Egregious misregard for core content policies such as WP:V does rise to the level of misconduct, but I don't think that's what we have here. While it is true that Raymond3023 does seem to have some competence problems, the one edit at issue here did not directly add the problematic content, but only assumed responsibility for the article as a whole. They also had no previous relevant sanctions. Under these circumstances, I'd probably have left it at a stern warning and not directly imposed a topic ban. The topic ban is more defensible if one takes the very pragmatic view that all less than completely competent and experienced editors should be removed from DS topic areas, but that's not been our practice so far, and would be very difficult to implement. Nonetheless, I'm aware that this is only a different admin's perspective on the issue, and not necessarily a more objective one than NeilN's, who as enforcing admin has wide latitude to impose discretionary sanctions. Such sanctions should only be overturned if the applicable rules and procedures were clearly violated, and not merely because of a different assessment of the situation. This case seems to me to be on the border between the two situations, and I would therefore welcome other views on the matter. Sandstein 17:46, 8 January 2018 (UTC) The article content was problematic and the user took a long time to get the point of that. This seems within process and admin discretion to me and I see no formal grounds to overturn it. However, it's not what I would have done; if it was me in that situation, once the user has admitted there is a problem and committed to fixing it, I'd let it go with a warning and keep an eye on them. @NeilN: Would you consider commuting this to a warning off your own bat? GoldenRing (talk) 17:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC) @NeilN: it's not particularly impressive but it's also not a major game-changer in my view. However, my question was really whether you would consider changing your mind; if you're confident that the sanction was appropriate, I see no grounds here for us to overturn it and it should stay in place. GoldenRing (talk) 09:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Having reviewed this case, NeilN applied appropriate due diligence, and the 3-month topic ban is well within administrative discretion for the issues at hand. I don't see any grounds for granting the appeal or for overturning or commuting the topic ban. If anything, I'm concerned that we'll be back here in 3 months, since Raymond2023 doesn't seem to understand why his actions were problematic. MastCell Talk 20:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)