Talk:School bus

German article discusses the implementation of traditional school buses in one part of Germany. Then goes on to discuss the ubiquity of them in the USA and that they have been used in the US for their entire history. But again does not show that a traditional school bus is so common as to be a global term. Not does the article even discuss any countries beyond Germany and US Slywriter (talk) 17:49, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The contracted and chartered school buses are still dedicated school buses. This is still a school bus. But you can't seem to see past your North American bias. 212.135.65.247 (talk) 09:05, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

No need to engage with you if you are going to continue to cast aspersions and accuse me of bias. Slywriter (talk) 13:23, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Clearly not directed at you, per WP:THREAD. 212.135.65.247 (talk) 13:55, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

That's what I get for coming on here before coffee. Understood now, though still should avoid comments directly at editors.

I agree that the article should not be focused solely on NA. It should incorporate all school buses.

However I do not believe that extends to making the article about all vehicular modes of student transport, as that article already exists. School Bus still has a distinct meaning and evidence is slim on its language use beyond the dedicated yellow(mostly) bus. Slywriter (talk) 14:12, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Number, what is your solution? How would you deal with the "school bus" links?

I can look at Google and get it. It does look like "ugly-American" assuming they own the world. You probably see it a lot and we never notice. But what do you gain other than some satisfaction in baiting us? Do you think that people can't find school buses in England?

Sort of a cheap shot: the UK section on School bus by country is lame. Search "school bus uk" and you start with the basic law, every council(?), funding, cutbacks, there is a "tonne" of stuff and not one reference in the article. Yes, there are school buses in the UK, but nobody wants to write about them.

We know your problem, what is your solution? (that is not supposed to sound snotty) Sammy D III (talk) 14:31, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

So, do I get to take issue with the aspersions, IP?

No NA bias here with me. Your unwillingness to even acknowledge the unambiguous difference between regular buses used to transport students and buses specifically designed and built for the purpose betrays your inability to help with this subject. So, for that matter, does your continued opposition to even the typical WP:BRD cycle.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Does the name matter?

As long as "school bus" links and searches still come here does the actual name of the article matter?

"North America" is wrong. Mexico, who does not do this, is on North America too. Sammy D III (talk) 21:52, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of Globalization concerns, School Bus needs to convey all of the information currently listed at the NA article. As in, what is a school bus? Why is it yellow? Why are they different from other buses and modes of transportation?

Whether individual countries/regions warrant forking the article... Not sure.

What i do know is that school bus being replaced by school bus by country article is not the answer. Slywriter (talk) 22:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

If all "school bus" links everywhere still came here they would still get the information, wouldn't they? Someone from the US would never notice a couple of extra words in the title and it would let the grammar people have their two words.

It is impossible to defend the grammar of "school bus". They are anywhere. Some people do think about different vehicles. The links that say "school bus" mean US/Canadian and lead here. The few others could go to "by country". Sammy D III (talk) 23:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

A redirect turns into a DAB down the road and all the readers looking for relevant information find none as they don't know what link to click Slywriter (talk) 23:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't really understand but get the idea. Making new links wouldn't work, either. Well, I don't feel like a moron at all. Sorry to waste your time. Sammy D III (talk) 23:58, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Lol. Let me try a different path.

• school bus should not be a redirect or DAB as the term has a relevant and fairly distinct meaning.
• school bus should discuss Yellow School Buses operated by Municipalities or Schools to get children from their homes to schools and back again
• school bus is not student transport. It's a distinct form of student transport
• School bus does not have to only cover the US and Canada but it should not include information from school bus by country that is about things other than a school bus, ie Mass Transit, walking, University Buses

and even if you disagree with all of that, using this as a redirect to school bus by country in its current form is not a reasonable outcome, as school bus by country is a large stub imho

Slywriter (talk) 00:15, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

All the "school bus" links are used to point to the US style ("Yellow") buses here, otherwise they wouldn't be linked. They are used in context, maybe in quotes, so you can't change them. Or the article name, it has to match them. That's a lock.

You can't complain about use from inside any article. The article specifically sends you to Yellow. If you don't want to go to Yellow you edit the article the link is in. That's a lock.

Search engines are a problem. The hit will show the words as US instead of general use ("by country" is immediately below, though). That could offend, I guess. I can't believe that people are really confused, though. When I looked earlier page views were Yellow 500+ and "by country" 50+. Just a hair under 10 times as many.

I thought there was a lot of good stuff at "by country" but it's a monster mess. They could spin Asia off. North America is messed up just now. Who'd a guessed? There is no India? They don't use the talk page. Sammy D III (talk) 02:06, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

I really only see two viable routes forward. First would be to make sure that, no matter what this article ends up being named (perhaps "Yellow school bus" to clarify its specificity?) the needed "School bus" redirect continues pointing at this article, since so many articles around WPs (English and the dozens of non-English) are looking for this article's content.

The second would be for someone to, after the rename, search all of WPs (including the non-WPs) and update those links to this article's new name, so that "School bus" could be populated by something else without sending people following the former links ending up in a confusing or unhelpful place. Someone somewhere noted something like 600 links to "School bus," though I don't know if this was English WP only, or included all of them. Eventually the popular search engines would catch up (though it may take a few days or weeks).

"...by country" isn't helpful for this subject. It really is poorly named as "School bus by country" and really probably should be named "School transport..." or "School busing..." But that's another conversation for that article's talk page.

I am still firmly in the camp of the first route. Whether people like it or not, the basic overview info about this specific kind of bus demands a NA focus. There's just no getting around that.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 02:58, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

You can not change the words "school bus" in the links. They are used in text, you change every article with the link. If the article name changes you might (will?) lose a zillion links instantly. You won't know to make new links that say "school bus" because you don't know that link exists. That's not the name of the article you are linking to. You lose any new links from the words "school bus" to the Yellow article. I think. Sammy D III (talk) 03:44, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of Globalization concerns, School Bus needs to convey all of the information currently listed at the NA article.  As in, what is a school bus? Why is it yellow? Why are they different from other buses and modes of transportation?

That statement explains it best! Other types of buses are given their own article space as well to explain their design and function (this page, along with [[Coach (bus), Airport bus, Police bus, and Transit bus). Usage of school buses around the world (not an insignifignant thing) has been spun off on its own to allow this article to concentrate on the design and function of the vehicle. Why is it yellow? What makes it different? That is what someone decided to make an article about 16 years ago and things have been worked upon ever since. --SteveCof00 (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Steve and Slywriter. Why is it yellow? Sammy D III (talk) 20:40, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

This article is about US type school buses.

The content of this article is about the design and operation of US and Canadian school buses only. Chapter 7 covers all non-US and Canadian buses.

The content of this article has no Globalization problem. The content of this article is about vehicles in two specific countries.

For school buses operated outside the US and Canada please see School bus by country. Sammy D III (talk) 17:16, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree with the only. I agree that it is about a specific type of bus, best defined by the US/Canada Yellow School Bus.

The general article student transport handles various ways countries get students to and from schools.

What should be done to this article is generalizing what can be generalized and incorporating material from school bus by country (with or without eventually deleting that article) Slywriter (talk) 18:08, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

The article is excellent on its US and Canadian subject. You are talking about changing the article so it matchs the title. Sammy D III (talk) 18:23, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Various configurations of school buses are used worldwide; the most iconic examples are the yellow school buses of the United States and Canada. 

From the lead section of the article; I think this is at least as likely to be read as the hatnotes on top. This is also why School bus by country exists; it allows such content to be given its own room to grow. If it was included here, the article would have multiple main points (look into older versions of this article in its history...) --SteveCof00 (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

I also disagree with the "only." This article is an overview of a specific kind of bus, with nearly all of that overview requiring a focus on North America because that is where nearly all its history is. There are a few more recent examples of this type of bus used in other parts of the world, but the core of the bus's overview will necessarily focus on North America. If this article really is only about an N.A. bus, then its title really would need to be changed (and I would strongly disagree with this; links to this article are clearly looking for the content here, because for the concept of a "school bus" this is the vehicle people want to know about).

It might be worthwhile then, to address concerns about a lack of international inclusion, to reintroduce a small section noting very specific examples of this type of bus used outside North America (not examples of merely school transportation by general bus), with a hat that links to the School bus by country article. This section would be limited in scope in order to ensure the article remains focused on this specific type of bus and doesn't blow up with a bunch of less-relevant examples of general bus use, but should satisfy claims that the article is too-N.A. focused. That article should remain, but perhaps a discussion should occur there to retitle it "School busing by country" or something similar.

But to focus the hat and lead of the article on "Canada and the United States" I think is a problem, because these buses aren't just used in N.A. and, even though limited, those non-N.A. examples deserve to be accounted for. But those examples don't give justification to the cries of an almost-solely-N.A. focus so much that the name needs to be changed (which is what started the whole mess prior to the move).

tl;dr: the "school bus" covered in this article is a specific kind of school bus that serves as the basis for an overview article about that specific kind of bus. This kind of bus does see limited use outside of N.A., so maybe that should be re-accounted for in this article. And it won't be appropriate to retitle this article to highlight the N.A. focus because those limited examples do show that there's a broader dimension to the subject, but that the subject is ultimately grounded in N.A., meaning the focus in this general article is warranted.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

A theoretical discussion about two words offending a small minority of people should make every US/Canadian wrong. Sigh, ugly "American" roll again: Gov.UK says "and live at least: * 2 miles from the school if they’re under 8 * 3 miles from the school if they’re 8 or older". Are you kidding me? A seven-year-old has to walk two miles? I doubt many US 8th graders have walked more than a mile since the 1960s. You should be ashamed. Don't you love your children?

Of course you love your children. There is absolutely no way to compare the two systems. There is absolutely no way to compare the two systems. Yet you are trying to. 50% of our students are bused, what is the UK percentage? Figure in the distances. My state may move more children farther than your island yet you think it is correct for the two to be treated as if they were equal in the actual world.

I had a "Big Ben" alarm clock when I was young. They were very popular, a lot of "Americans" used them. I think I should move Big Ben to "Big Ben of London". That would make perfect sense to me. Perspective. Sammy D III (talk) 22:06, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Of course you love your children. There is absolutely no way to compare the two systems. There is absolutely no way to compare the two systems. Yet you are trying to. 50% of our students are bused, what is the UK percentage? Figure in the distances. My state may move more children farther than your island yet you think it is correct for the two to be treated as if they were equal in the actual world.

@Sammy D III: Uh... ok I'm not sure what's going on here, but I don't think this in any way reflects what I wrote above. I haven't once equated the buses/busing in N.A. and in England/U.K. In fact I've been pretty clear about the important distinction, as that distinction is central to my argument. I haven't once identified myself as living in UK, or anywhere really, so I don't know why you think I'm speaking about "[my] island." And finally, your final point about a Big Ben-styled alarm clock is so incredibly similar to my point that the page about a specialized "school bus" will have nearly all its info be about things in N.A. that I think you've completely misread my thoughts and are arguing with me out of a complete misunderstanding.

What I am saying is that, if we were to change the language of this specific page to be solely about N.A. school buses, then we would need to rename this article. And I do not think this is appropriate, so we should not be changing the language in this way. I don't know how to be any more clear about this.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 22:43, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Yea, we aren't hooking up at all. First and foremost, I don't care who you are. You don't want me to know, fine. I thought "Gov.UK says" set the stage".

In this section I have addressed the content of this article. You have been around long enough to know better than to say "to reintroduce a small section" and "limited in scope". Santa Claus will enforce that.

Please tell me that you have been to School bus by country and don't intend to create it. Please tell me that you have looked at the history of this article and the decade of discussions about splitting the non-US-specific stuff off.

The "Big Ben" stuff was meant to be bitterly ironic.

Crap, I have to go below. I still don't care who you are. Sammy D III (talk) 23:23, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 29 January 2020

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• School bus → School buses in North America
• School bus (the redirect) → ?

-Re-requesting a move back to School buses in North America as the previous move had no consensus (hence the above RM), There was also some debate as to where the School bus redirect should point to, Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 22:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

• Pinging all previous RM participants @SteveCof00, Sammy D III, Pinchme123, Slywriter, Axem Titanium, QuadColour, and Erakura: (Pings don't work for IPs so I've left messages for these, Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 22:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose "in North America" as vague. I know it is utilized as a synonym of "US and Canada" but there are 37 territories in that part of continent. The only problem I see in this article is the lack of a worldwide vision, but other than that the article is focused on what is a school bus, unlike School bus by country, which merely describes buses by region. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 23:17, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose

• School bus has a distinct meaning. It is not a coach bus, a city bus, a charter bus, or any other kind of bus. When an English speaker hears School Bus, they think of a specific type of bus.
• Also, WP:Global is not a policy, it's a project with a goal that clearly states is about "remedying omissions", not about capturing top-level articles and turning them into re-direct farms.
• The previous split of the article should be re-considered as it's given a false impression this article is only about the US and Canada.
• The proposed title makes little to no sense. The article is primarily about US and to a lesser extent Canada. Due to a fork that split out other countries to own article.
• Nearly 600 internal enwiki redirects point to this page and they are expecting to read about Yellow School Buses Slywriter (talk) 23:22, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Not only is this overwhelmingly WP:COMMONNAME, it is used every school day by half of the students in the US and their parents. Every person in the US has been taught "School bus" since we were two.

• Of course "school bus" is a job that some buses do all over the world. The language is clear, there are school buses in other places. But how many readers are interested in all the non-US/Canadian school buses all around the world combined? How many are looking for US/Canada design buses? The pageview statistics are gone now but it was about 10 to 1 a couple of weeks ago My memory only but I really did look.

• These US/Canadian developed design vehicles are the standard of the world. In the School bus by country UK section's five paragraphs four mention North America. Of seven pictures in the gallery two are US/Canada design (built?), the rest appear to be adaptions of UK transit buses.

• A few Wikipedia editors are trying to tell three hundred million people who use the name "School bus" what they should be saying. You can't read about a major part of .your culture, the safety of your children, without going thru an extra article to get there because it offends a few people who don't really use the words all that much anyway. There is no reason to change the WP:COMMONNAME of over 300 million people for the social agenda of a few. Sammy D III (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Like I've said the term is a worldwide one not just an American one. –Davey2010^Talk 01:17, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

• Question Where is the non-US-centric article that was living at "school bus" until the move was reverted? Was there one, or was it just a redirect that whole time? Axem Titanium (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Years ago editors decided to leave the US-centric as the main article and split others into "school bus by country". A fork that may have been valid on basis of size of page but now causes this drama about the top level nameSlywriter (talk) 23:38, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

An old version Sammy D III (talk) 23:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Rather than this Requested Move, why don't we just put the US/Canada specific stuff into the relevant section of School bus by country and leave the rest here as is? Seems like a simpler solution. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:42, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Every reader who is interested in Yellow (most of them) would have to go through a different layer and choose between every bus in the world. Where is US alphabetically? Everyone is looking for Yellow. You also lose a zillion links. Sammy D III (talk) 23:46, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Axem Titanium you're more than welcome to start an RFC on that as it's something A) I support and B) prefer over this move, Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 01:17, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Why start another discussion when we can have one here? No need to get hung up on process. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:47, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Axem Titanium, the issue is, this entire article is relevant to the overview of what a school bus is. As I understand it, that's why, so many years ago, this article remained at this title and another was spun out of it. At that time editors agreed with the argument that a "school bus" is a specialized kind of bus for transporting schoolchildren, not any kind of bus that transports schoolchildren. --Pinchme123 (talk) 02:23, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Google the following "school bus us", "school bus India", "school bus UK", "school bus Pakistan", "school bus China". The images and top results are clear what the English vernacular sees as a "school bus". Slywriter (talk) 02:33, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Strong Oppose Agree with the WP:COMMONNAME convention. Along with numerous technical issues than can be caused by a move (this page is linked to over 30 Wikipedias in different languages...), "School bus" is also a more concise and natural title (WP:NAMINGCRITERIA); it also comes across as far more neutral.

• "School buses in North America" or "School Bus (North America)" is appropriate if there is another regional school bus article that has been written (none yet).
• Current title matches Coach (bus), Transit bus, Police bus, and Party bus in naming (among others)
• WP:GLOBAL is indeed about perspectives and the prevalence of knowledge from editors. However, this does not warrant major reconstruction of articles; along with being translated in over 30 languages (to different extents), this article has been split into School bus by country and Student transport to include related content from around the world. The split also allows "School bus" to focus more closely on vehicle design and function. Is there a slanted perspective? Possibly. However, this article is part of a larger picture and is well-linked to ensure it is not orphaned.

Keeping the article here is the simplest title and the best course for further developing this article (and several others) in the future. --SteveCof00 (talk) 09:54, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Your closing comment is inappropriate and a lie. The issue is no one has provided any evidence to support the move beyond a Globalization concern that has not been backed up, while volumes of evidence over the last 2 weeks were provided for why it should remain across numerous boards and threads. Slywriter (talk) 12:43, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Your comment absolutely proves my point above. –Davey2010^Talk 13:37, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Again, all I see is evidence of your disrespect for your fellow editors. It is not other editors fault that the argument for the move can be summed up as WP:IDONTLIKEIT wrapped up in a misinterpretation of WP:global. No evidence was provided to show that "school bus" is widely used in the English language to mean anything other than a dedicated transport with specific features. Slywriter (talk) 14:06, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

What is a 'school bus'?

I've been trying to keep track of this talk page but there's far too many people to reply to. I have noticed a repeated point come up over and over again. What exactly is a 'school bus'? This seems like quite a pivotal point in this debate yet I have seen almost no evidence to support any viewpoints. The point that I have surmised from the US perspective is that in the opinion of those users, a 'school bus' is a vehicle specifically designed or adapted for the purpose of carrying children to and from school. The non-US perspective seems to be that a school bus is any vehicle used for that purpose. So which is it? I'll try to run through some sources on what the definition is:

• Cambridge Dictionary [1] (UK)- "a bus for taking children to and from school"
• Collins Dictionary [2] (UK)- "A school bus is a special bus which takes children to and from school."
• Merriam-Webster [3] (US)- "a vehicle used for transporting children to or from school or on activities connected with school"
• American Heritage Dictionary [4] (US)- "A publicly or privately owned vehicle that is used for taking schoolchildren to and from school or school-related activities."
• Random House Unabridged Dictionary [5] (US)- "a vehicle used to transport students to and from school or used for other related purposes."

My opinion on the consensus of these sources is that any bus can be a school bus if it is used for the purpose of transporting school children. Feel free to find your own sources or draw your own conclusions from this data, but I think this is pretty overwhelming in favour of one viewpoint. -QuadColour (talk) 23:53, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @Slywriter, Pinchme123, and Sammy D III:, in case you would like to weigh in with your opinion - QuadColour (talk) 00:04, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Your petty snit may directly affect 300+ million people who love their children. I was straight with you. Please feel free to ping me any time after hell freezes over, you selfish little jerk. Sammy D III (talk) 00:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Wow. There is no need for name calling. Apologies if I upset you by pinging you but I thought you might be interested in responding to my points. Apparently that is not the case. - QuadColour (talk) 00:58, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

@QuadColour:

• I have said repeatedly what a school bus is. It's a specific type of student transport best exemplified by the US Yellow School bus. An identity made iconic and is replicated in the various other language articles. Just look at the picture used in every article on other language wikis.
• When an English speaker types in school bus, they are expecting to get information about a mode of transport that is specifically for children, has certain safety features, identifying marks, and generally has traffic law implications to vehicles in their vicinity. Even the color school bus yellow has its own article because of the importance that color has.
• 600 enwiki redirects are looking for this type of school bus. When articles say school bus whether because a song mentions them, a company manufactures them, or Municipalities use them they are looking for this type of bus.
• The fork of school bus by country was a well meaning but misguided fork. The sections of that article that speak to the iconic school bus mentioned here being used in other countries should be part of this article, not there. And student transport deals with the various other ways students get to school.
• And WP:global is a project not a policy. It's specific aim is inclusion of additional information, not the hijacking of a top level article for the sake of Globalization. Slywriter (talk) 00:50, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I feel like your points here (except the 600 redirects, there's no getting around that AFAIK) are based around your opinions as a US reader. Again it comes back to this idea that a school bus does not have to be specifically adapted to be a school bus. Your points would be perfectly valid (in my opinion) if this article was called 'Yellow School Bus' or similar. But since it isn't, ignoring the other types of school bus seems like a strange decision. - QuadColour (talk) 01:10, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

If your only refute is viewpoint then we have nothing further to discuss. I am tired of feeling the need to defend my nationality instead of the topic of the article Slywriter (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

"a vehicle used for transporting children to or from school or on activities connected with school" would apply to the UK (and maybe the US not sure) but as an overall one I'd say the first one. –Davey2010^Talk 01:21, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

(ec)QuadColor and Davey2010 The distinction I will point out here is "a vehicle/bus used...," not "any vehicle/bus used..." These definitions fit perfectly fine with the argument I and Slywriter seem to have been making (apologies if I have your position wrong, Slywriter), which is that a school bus is a specific kind of bus. It's a definitional turn - not captured well in short dictionary definitions (a reason why dictionaries are not considered particularly useful sources in academic literature, by the way) - that is crucial to this subject.

You speak of other types of school buses, but the supposed types you've identified are merely non-specialized buses used for school transport.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 02:18, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

To answer the initial question of this thread, there is an answer outside of the dictionary (one I used as a source when writing the wording of the lead section). http://www.nasdpts.org/ncstonline/Documents/NCST%202015%20Specifications%20and%20Procedures%2011.1.16.pdf (scroll down to page 342 for the answer) has an exact definition of a yellow school bus and the specifications behind its design and operation; the original National Congress on School Transportation was the 1939 conference that led to the creation of school bus yellow. Can any bus be a school bus if it is transporting children? That answer is yes, but the buses for the purposes of this article (defined on the link I included) are used to only transport children, which is why they have several design features and are allowed traffic priority. Instead of saying no to the question, school bus by country and student transport address the question from a wider perspective. However, even outside North America, buses used for student transport may be set aside for school use and lettered "School bus" (in a language that is not English) --SteveCof00 (talk) 08:18, 30 January 2020 (UTC)