Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andres Velaz de Medrano

Andres Velaz de Medrano

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Velaz may well be a notable son of Al-Hakam II, or he may not. Given that this biography is almost entirely unsourced, we'd have no way of knowing. I believe that WP:TNT applies here -- if we were to remove all of the unsourced bits, we'd have literally nothing left. What sources I find online are either mirrors of Wikipedia or are history texts written before 1900 whose reliability is questionable. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 12:48, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as original research or hoax. There's nothing at Google Scholar for "Andres Velaz de Medrano". Google Books only turns up a few passing mentions, one of which says that he is the father of Don Andrés Félix Velaz de Medrano, husband of María Felipa de Fonseca, who in 1646 became the second marquise of la Lapilla, Spain. The second source also mentions him in the context of the Marquess of la Lapilla, established in 1643 (see also es-wiki).
He seems to have been an obscure 17th-century noble man, and there appears to be no connection whatsoever with Abd al-Rahman, the firstborn son of the Umayyad caliph of Cordoba al-Hakam II (915–976), who in fact died as a young boy: this source, p. 23 says that "meager references to Abd al-Rahman in the sources mention his birth and premature death", giving as dates of birth and death 962 and 970 respectively; the Encyclopaedia of Islam entry on al-Hakam II calls Hisham II (966–1013) "his only son" at the time of succession in 976.
Now there is a slight possibility that this is not a hoax, but rather based on old Spanish legends about the firstborn of the Caliph becoming a Christian prince and spawning a line of nobles called 'de Medrano'. In that case, however, we need reliably published research (secondary sources) about these legends to base an article on, and nothing of that sort has been brought forward yet. The names and biographies of Julio Altadill, Don Pedro Emiliano Zorrilla, Mr. Francisco Mosqeura Barnuevo and Peter Pineda given above are meaningless: we need to know the precise publications, including the publishing houses and bibliographic info like ISBN, OCLC, etc., and then we also require page numbers and preferably some quotes from these publications at the article talk page. If it can't be brought back to that, it doesn't have a place on Wikipedia. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:44, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The heir presumptive (Hisham II) is one whose right may be defeated by the birth of a nearer heir. The heir apparent (Abd Al-Rahman) is one whose right to inherit is indefeasible as long as he or she outlives the property holder. In the majority of hereditary monarchies, the eldest child of the sovereign is heir apparent to the crown. He has the right to the titles and the crown. Hisham II was recorded as the heir presumptive, not heir apparent, which means that the heir apparent Abd Al-Rahman was still alive past 960 and alive during the oath of allegiance in 975. Therefore Abd Al Rahman outlived the property holder due to the fact that Hisham II was still heir presumptive in 975, a title reserved for those with a living elder brother only. Apaugasma claims that in the book of the Circular Visions of Fertility and Punishment: Caliphal Ivory Caskets from al-Andalus on Page 23: "the firstborn son of the Umayyad caliph of Cordoba al-Hakam II (915–976), who in fact died as a young boy: this source, p. 23 says that "meager references to Abd al-Rahman in the sources mention his birth and premature death", giving as dates of birth and death 962 and 970 respectively; the Encyclopaedia of Islam entry on al-Hakam II calls Hisham II (966–1013) "his only son" at the time of succession in 976." OBJECTION: This book of the Circular Visions of Fertility and Punishment: Caliphal Ivory Caskets from al-Andalus is the only "meager" reference given for his death, and the one who is attributed to this "meager reference" is supposedly Ibn Abhari, but wikipedia states that "(Ibn Abhari) He mentions another biographic work on the caliphs, imāms and amīrs from across the Islamic world, which has not survived". This means that the "meager reference" and source you have provided about Al-Hakam II and his son Abd Al-Rahman of Al-Andalus is not accurate, because his work on Emirs and Caliphs among other work has not survived. Geronimo Virula Medrano El (talk) 06:56, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vote Against Deletion: With all of the true sources, publishers and secondary research provided with page numbers under my "Full Objection of Deletion" listed below, I am hereby objecting this deletion for the page of Don Andres Velaz de Medrano. - Geronimo Virula Medrano El
Delete as original research, based on the article creator's own analysis of questionable sources, and as an unencyclopedic rambling genealogy, rather than a biography of an individual. I should note that even if it were to be established that the individual named in the article title met Wikipedia notability standards, 90% of the article as it stands would have to be deleted as entirely off-topic, even if sourced. Notability is not inherited... AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:56, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Geronimo Virula Medrano El at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andres Velaz de Medrano, I've moved substantial additional discussion to Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Andres Velaz de Medrano. Please keep comments in this discussion relatively brief and on point. I take no position on the merits. Mackensen (talk) 11:58, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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