Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 155

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Archive 150

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Archive 153

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Articles for merging

It's tough to tell as neither article is of a particularly good standard, but I think the articles for Northamptonshire Senior Cup and Hillier Cup are actually describing the same competition. The list of winners/runner-up are very similar (although not completely identical!), and Kettering Town have won both trophies 31 times :P

Therefore I think these articles need combining/merging (or maybe just the Hillier article deleting?), but this is all a bit beyond my skillset if anyone can be of assistance? Thanks for your help Nonleagueapps (talk) 09:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

From the text on both pages they are the same competition. I don't know if there is a naming convention for these (being called the Hillier Senior Cup since 1981 would suggest this is not a sponsored name), but it seems Hillier Senior Cup should be the base article with the other 2 pages redirected to it. The 2 articles give different results for recent finals, and neither is particularly up to date (or was it cancelled due to Covid?). It doesn;t help that the refs used are now 404s. Spike 'em (talk) 10:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I found a league source which shows recent winners and merged the articles. The list of winners in the NSC article seems to be a year out of sync for at the begining of the crosssover of results, so I've not included. Happy for somone else to do so if they figure out where it goes wrong (will have to look in the page history). Spike 'em (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that, great work! Looking at some of the other county cups using the template at the bottom, the consensus seems to be to have the county name as the title of the article ('Northamptonshire Senior Cup'), but then the other name in bold in the lead sentence ('Hillier Senior Cup'). For example, the Isle of Wight Senior Cup is the name of the article, with it described as the 'Senior Gold Cup' in the lead sentence. Is everyone happy if we go with that here for consistency? (It annoys me how the 'Northamptonshire Senior Cup' in the template isn't blacked out when you're on the page because the title doesn't match!) Nonleagueapps (talk) 22:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Peter Barnes (footballer)

@Rcclh: is edit warring at this article to change the Leeds stats from 31 to 30 games. Sources say both, but the STABLE version is 31 and that is supported by (in my view) a better calibre of source, being Hugman, Neil Brown, and (based on the career stats table) ENFA - as opposed to the Leeds fan sites and WorldFootball Rcclh suggests. Can anybody shed any light please? Giant Snowman 19:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Do any of these sources actually list the 31/30 games? That would be helpful to clear up the situation. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The fan sites do - but they might be missing a match. Giant Snowman 20:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499 fraid not :( . Soccerway and Soccerbase are useful in displaying matches players have played in but on Soccerbase, Barnes only appeared to play for Man City v Newcastle which he scored. Soccerway does not include any league appearances at all. Where next folks? Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Rothmans:30 Leeds United A complete record 1919-1989 :31 The difference is the match against Manchester City 10 March. These things happen sometimes. Reliable is not the same thing as 100% accurate. (I would go for 31 in this case). Cattivi (talk) 21:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed - it should be 31. @Rcclh: do you agree? Giant Snowman 06:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I just checked the report on that match in The Times dated 11 March 1982 and it does not list Barnes in the Leeds team, which would point towards the Rothmans source being correct and 30 being the right number...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you think ENFA, Hugman, The writers of the Leeds United complete record book etc. are not aware what newspapers and Rothmans write? I think they know what they're doing. They use much more sources than only a few newspapers. I think there is a high possibility you are re-introducing errors made in the past if you use sources like the Times and Rothmans this way.Cattivi (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

That's now 3 sources saying Harris and not Barnes played v Man City. Where are the source saying Harris played? The Leeds F.C. History site have miscounted their own data and all the other sites have just copied the 31. Rcclh (talk) 22:14, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Of course I don't agree. I've posted the evidence twice now listing the individual games on both the Barnes article' talk page and your talk page and I haven't seen any evidence to say Barnes and not Harris played against Man City.

Let me show you again ...

It appears some sources have taken this page of total appearances from the Leeds F.C. History site where they have miscounted the appearances of Barnes and Harris. https://www.leeds-fans.org.uk/leeds/history/67.html This says Barnes played 31 and Harris 15(3). However on the same site, they document each appearance individually and the total for Barnes comes to only 30 as referenced here with "30/30" (30th start out of 30) on the last game of the season v WBA http://www.ozwhitelufc.net.au/leeds_stats/leeds_united_team_details/Teamsheet_by_season/1981-82/1981-82%20West%20Bromwich%20Albion%20(a).php whereas the final start for Harris is referenced as 16/16 (16th start out of 16) http://www.ozwhitelufc.net.au/leeds_stats/leeds_united_team_details/Teamsheet_by_season/1981-82/1981-82%20Manchester%20City%20(h).php

It is perhaps because Harris took Barnes usual 11 shirt on his final start for Leeds that the mistake in the totals was made. Another site concurs that Harris, and not Barnes played in that match against Manchester City https://www.worldfootball.net/report/premier-league-1981-1982-leeds-united-manchester-city/ Rcclh (talk) 22:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Jarred and MacDonald published the book I mentioned in 1989. They can’t have used online sources. More likely are the Yorkshire Evening Post, Jarred worked there in 1989, the club records and official FA records. I’m pretty sure ENFA and Hugman used Jarred and MacDonald. They both started publishing\ have their origins in the pre internet days. Harris, Barnes is not the only difference. In the book Balcombe is not wearing his usual 6 shirt, but the 5 shirt. Cherry played with Number 6. Cattivi (talk) 06:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't really clear to me from your previous message what you had found. So you are saying Jarred and MacDonald published a book on Leeds United that specifies Barnes playing in the match on March 10th 1982, or just that he played 31 games? If the former, that makes a difference because i hadn't seen or heard of a source for that so far, and so balances the probabilities more in my eyes. I still think there is more evidence for 30 though, as we can now add a Man City site to the list https://www.citytilidie.com/latest/leeds-away-198182/ which means we have a report at the time (The Times), a world football site, a Leeds site and a Man City site. Incidentally there's a flickr user that scans in football programmes that would tell us the answer on the statistics page, but frustratingly the last Leeds programme scanned in for that season was Leeds v Man City. Rcclh (talk) 13:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

ENFA list both Barnes and Harris playing in that match. Barnes 31, Harris 15+3 league apps that season. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

ok - when ENFA was quoted before and someone asked if they listed matches the reply was that "the fans sites do", so that's also new information.

Have chedked newspaper reports on the match. Neither Harris nor Barnes are mentioned and team sheets are not provided. However there are stories on the same day that John Bond, manager of Manchester City, was enquiring about buying "unsettled" (Daily Telegraph) and "out-of-favour" (Reading Evening Post) Barnes. Additionally Harris, and not Barnes, played in the game before and the game after the Leeds / Man City game. Very much pointing to him not playing in this game. Rcclh (talk) 14:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The Times report lists the line-ups and has this team for Leeds: Lukic, Greenhoff, Gray, Hird, Cherry, Burns, Butterworth, Thomas, Worthington, Connor, Harris. The report also specifically notes "....while Harris on the opposite wing could only manage to involve himself in the game sporadically". I know reporters do make errors, but it would seem to be pretty unusual for the reporter to specifically namecheck Harris if it wasn't him playing....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:37, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I also found a report from the Aberdeen Evening Express (random I know but there you go) dated 12 March saying "Former Scotland striker Derek Parlane and England winger Peter Barnes are recalled to the Leeds United squad for tomorrow's relegation clash at Sunderland". He wouldn't be described as being recalled if he had played in the last game -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a big problem with the line-ups on page 305 of the book. Balcombe didn't play 23 games 0 goals. In the home game against Aston Villa when he scored, he isn't even in the line-up. Aspin, Thomas, Butterworth all completely wrong. Looks like something went wrong in an excel file. Balcombe 1 game 1 goal on page 59 is correct. If they both played(ENFA) someone else (not Harris) didn't play against Manchester City. Cattivi (talk) 17:46, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

@Cattivi: do you or @Struway2: have the full line-up for the game as listed by ENFA so that we can compare it with the one listed by the contemporary source from The Times.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear now Barnes didn't play in that game and Harris did. Balcombe made 1 appearance for Leeds in October 1981 v Aston Villa. Rcclh (talk) 22:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

1 John Lukic 2 Brian Greenhoff 3 Eddie Gray 4 Kevin Hird 5 Kenny Burns 6 Trevor Cherry 7 Carl Harris 8 Gwyn Thomas 9 Frank Worthington 10 Terry Connor 11 Peter Barnes

according to ENFA. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

and if you want a different contemporary lineup, there's The Grauniad's Lukic, Greenhoff, Gray, Hird, Cherry, Barnes, Butterworth, Thomas, Worthington, Connor, Harris. But true to its reputation, it lists 11 players but omits Burns, who must have been there or he couldn't have been sent off in the first half... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:10, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

If we assume that the Guardian has Barnes as a typo for Burns (which seems plausible given where he is listed in that line-up) then that XI would match what The Times has. The player that ENFA are missing is Aiden Butterworth, and again he is specifically namechecked in the Times report ("Butterworth almost had a death wish to run down blind alleys"). I really think all the signs are pointing to the line-up in The Times being the right one, meaning that Barnes did not play. Annoyingly none of the Yorkshire local papers seem to be available on Gale, proQuest, BNA or Newspapers.com...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

If this is true, the line-up in ENFA would be unverifiable for everybody, it would be fiction, that’s a very bad thing. Someone should ask ENFA what their source is, there can still be a good explanation. Cattivi (talk) 22:06, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

:I know Pete Barnes is the brother of John Barnes. I create the 1980-81 Nottingham Forest season masterpice article and I'm gonna delete it because the Nomenklature censored my CONMEBOL Qualification stages Position by round tables. HugoAcosta9 (talk) 00:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Can someone temporarily block Hugo? It's getting annoying. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I have blocked him for 72 hours -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)