Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog

Is the Chronology original research?

I'm suddenly reminded of the Legend of Zelda timeline attempt on Wikipedia... 208.101.152.167 14:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The information is based highly on fan based theories. Nothing in the chrono is officially stated to take place in the aforementioned article. Currently i've tried convincing them to remove the article until we have official (which would be never) and further prevent misleading fans into believing fan written nonsense (people get the idea that Wiki = reliable) but that hasn't occured so........I wouldn't take this page's word of it.

You're right, Neofcon, the entire thing is original research...then the entire section should be deleted. Really, I don't know why I didn't mention this fact before when arguing with another user over whether Sonic Rush was canon or not, an arguement caused by the simple reason that the entire article is made of original research, and thus, that there is no definative answer to what is and is not canon. It should be deleted, no, must be deleted. Michael Mad 16:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Well when you think about it, people are trying to justify Sonic Advance being "canon" simply because the red tornado is in the game. Wasn't the point of Sonic advance supposed to be "nostalgia" for sonic fans and thus justify the usage of the red tornado? That right there tells you that sonic fans abuse wikipedia to justify their theories and make "them" right. The zelda timeline I think is much more difficult to figure out because virtually all the games have little to no connection to any game besides some cameos or references. Sonic has more connections and is based in the same exact time period with no alternating characters in different timelines but even then, nothing has been stated to be official in the series chronology and cannot be explained because there are so many contradictions in many theories, such as what superbub stated earlier about sonic cd with the metal sonic vs Tails theory, why would Robotnik use a complete model and then go with inferior models and then go straight back to an old plan that failed? Usually Robotnik isn't the type to repeat plans, but if he does, he throws a certain twist in there. Even then Sonic CD's placement can't be determined just upon that logic because that is "still just a theory" because thus far Robotnik hasn't been stated to not repeat plans and it shows with Sonic Battle and his "death Egg 2", but even in that game people question if it's legit, considering that it's more likely a spinoff, contradicts the storyline of Sonic Adventure 2, and doesn't affect any other games in the series besides Sonic Advance 3 which has a different version of Emerl and most likely takes place after Sonic Advance two and people takes that game into consideration with the inclusion for Cream who has appeared in Sonic Heroes and that game affects the other games with shadow's appearance. But even then, Sonic Heroes and the weakest storyline out of all the games and Cream's role has not affected the other characters in any way and has been the most insignificant character since then, having no importance in shadow the hedgehog or an appearance in 06 and I heard somewhere that cream was originally supposed to be just a character for Sonic X (which shows since her role in that show is much bigger than in the games) But even then Sonic Rush includes Cream and Blaze, and Cream had a decently sized role in that game and it affected Blaze, and with her appearance in 06, we COULD'VE said it was legit, but any connection found would be demolished with the inclusion of Silver and the "future" aspect and blaze having no interaction (or EVER being stated to be a queen/princess as in rush) leads to a huge issue, but here comes Rivals with Nega stating to also be from the future and knows silver as well, and silver is stated to be looking for blaze. Confused? I know, all these inconsistencies lead to a huge issue with chronology and therefore no amount of fanon theories can patch it up. Sonic team has butchered the story so much that it has thrown any logic it had out of the window (then again what is logical in a world of talking animals with xmen-like powers?) so its virtually IMPOSSIBLE to detail what takes place when and what actually COUNTS because each connection is contradicted with another connection and the cycle goes on with EVERY sonic game that gets released. Neofcon

The whole thing is original research by default - it doesn't have any sources, and I doubt there exists any (except for the obvious things like Sonic 2 being after Sonic 1). It's mostly patched together by fan view. Gurko 22:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Thus, it should be deleted. It has no sources, and probably never will. It is made up of original research. If nobody has any objections, I will be deleting it, today if possible. Michael Mad 10:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay then, nobody has objected, but since my preceding comment was only posted five hours ago, I'll wait a little longer. If nobody has made any reasonable objections by 12:00 (GMT) tommorrow(or the section hasn't been deleted already), I will delete the section. Michael Mad 17:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

As much as I dont object, Tails0600 might. Neofcon

Well, I hate to be cruel, but it's gone twelve and nobody has made a reasonable objection. It will be deleted, now! Michael Mad 12:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It actually doesn't look half bad. The article is much shorter, something that is good. And everyone is right, there were no sources or anything. Sorry I didn't see the revisions for a while. Anyway, it looks much better now, that's the point. By the way, was this article ever nominated to be in the Wikipedia Release 0.7? Tails0600 04:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

reboot

didn't Sonic next gen serve as a reboot because Elise erased everything

.......yes, you can read about it on that page--Neofcon 16:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

God no, not a reboot. Only the events of that game were erased, not of prior Sonic games. Michael Mad 19:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh he meant the series? Hard to tell w/o the specifics and all..--Neofcon 21:52, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I can only imagine that he meant the series. His comment really wouldn't make sense otherwise. Michael Mad 11:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Well from a technical standpoint, sonic team DID say they wanted a "new beggining" or something of that nature, right? And considering 06 is hardly connected to previous games (no actual details that reference past games) i'd say it pretty much is a reboot. Not like it matters considering HALF the franchise is practically disconnected from each other anyways. --Neofcon 03:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not a reboot or Sonic would not know Tails Knuckles Amy Blaze Shadow Omega or Eggman and Shadow would not have his memory and Omega would not be bulitedMountainD 13:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

A reboot doesn't usually mean removing any and all information that the characters know. The devilman series is proof of this. The thing about 06 is that there are no references to past games (none, zip, nadda) so it could mean that they were serious and removed any continuity from past games and decided to make a story that isn't screwed up. Also note that before Sonic 3, there is no detailed information (from games, not manuals) of how each character has met each other so the same could be said for 06.--Neofcon 12:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you think Sonic Cult should be an external link?

I mean with all the research they provide, I think they could be good for references.--Neofcon 22:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It is a fansite, is it not? Then again, numerous Crash Bandicoot articles use Crash Mania, a fansite, as a source, while Tekken 6 uses SDTekken, another fansite, as a source. Unless there are any objections, or more reliable sources are available, you can go ahead and use Sonic Cult. Michael Mad 18:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. The information there is great, but linking it here will expose the site to many immature people that Sonic CulT shun's apon, and absolutely hates. I would know since I am a member there. 阿修羅96 18:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well michael mad, the GHZ is a fansite if im not mistaken....but (insert translated name of above person) I guess makes sense, despite the darn good info.--Neofcon 23:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Then again, thats only the forums--Neofcon 18:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Sonic's Speed

If they say that Sonic can run at the speed of sound, How can an orca(sonic Adventure),or a car for that matter keep up? It dosen't even look he is going that fast.Aiden M 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Simple. Game mechanics =/= Actual power. If that were true Cream really is strong enough to lift big the cat in Sonic Heroes.--Neofcon 00:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

also maybe in game that isn't his full speed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonicflames (talk • contribs) 01:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Characters section proposition

I propose that the main characters' sections be fleshed out, and have minor characters deleted from this article. As it stands, a major character like Tails has as much detail as any of the Sonic Riders characters; this shouldn't be. My suggestions for characters to be kept and expanded upon are: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy Rose, Eggman, Shadow, Metal Sonic and possibly Silver. Get rid of the others.

What should happen:

• Give each character a paragraph or two (or three)
  • Describe their basic roles in the games
  • A sentence or two about their basic personalities (stuff like favourite foods and perfect days doesn't fall into this category)
• Who designed the characters would be good
• Give the characters their own headings (you know, with the = signs)
• Get rid of stuff like "However, Sonic and his friends always stand in his way. In many cases, his own plans ironically outdo himself." and "She is quite strong and smashes enemy forces down with her trusty Piko Piko Hammer."; remember this is an encyclopedia, not a cutsey write-up for your website.

I've tonight gotten rid of numerous gender-specific terms (such as "if the player loses a life, he starts again...") and converted the list of items obtainable from the boxes into prose, as is recommended. If a few people can get together and try to make this a well-written article with plenty of references, there's no reason this can't be featured in a month.

Come on, Sonic deserves it! ~~ Gromreaper^(Talk)/_(Cont) 15:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Nah, the characters have their own pages to describe their roles and such. It's not really necessary to give more in-depth info when it's already there on seperate pages. Besides that, saying "minor" character in the sonic franchise has no baring these days, as such characters like Tails and knuckles have as big a role as simple chao do in these games. Mostly they have been moved down to "minor" status if you ask me.--Neofcon 00:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I think you may have missed my point. If you really want this article to be featured (you should, as every Wikipedia editor should feel about the articles they maintain), you're going to have to implement at least some of the suggestions I outlined above. Submit it at WP:FAC and it'll get shot down for lack of references and excessive character descriptions. The to-do list gives the already-featured Avatar: The Last Airbender as an example of what a featured article's "Characters" section should look like. It gives info about voice actors, a brief but well-written description of each character's personality and roles in the show. Naturally, their individual articles go into much greater detail, but a brief description is provided. We shouldn't expect people to click on Silver's article when they just want to know why he wants to kill Sonic. It should be said here, with a longer and more detailed description on his page. ~~ Gromreaper^(Talk)/_(Cont) 01:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Avatar is a tv show. It's SUPPOSED to describe characters as they are what make the story as story is what makes the show. Sonic games are just that. Video games. Articles explaining video game related information has to be more in-depth about video game details. Do you see street Fighter with detailed character descriptions? Oh wait they dont even HAVE a section about that. They leave those to their individual articles, just as with the sonic franchise and Mario franchise. The character section in the main article already gives a brief description about the characters in general but at least goes into further detail in their own articles, which is why it is not necessary to go any further in detail on the main article. You also have to realize that sonic characters are not anywhere NEAR as deep as "avatar" characters considering their plot statuses are extremely short and the majority of their roles in recent games are at best un-important, considering most of the games in the series is considered to have the least amount of impact in the overrall series, which means less character development (just about all sonic characters have little to no character development at best) and lesser over all impact on the series. --Neofcon 03:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, ok. Don't be a dick and be civil. I came here offering suggestions to improve the article, not asking to be patronised ("Oh wait they dont even HAVE a section about that). If you're so opposed to even the idea of a "characters" section, why haven't you deleted it from the article? Why is the Avatar series listed as an example to follow in the "to-do" list if you think it's a bad example to follow? I want to help make this a featured article, and I came here armed with the page as it stands the to-do list and very little else. Help me clean up the characters section or delete it entirely. ~~ Gromreaper^(Talk)/_(Cont) 06:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I apologize if I came off rude. Wiki users tend to put me off when it comes to sonic. Anywho, to answer your question, deleting the character's section would lead to future edit wars which is a waste of everyone's time, despite the fact that if individual character pages exist already, there is simply no need to be overly descriptive about it on the main game page (in reading some of your suggestions, they seemed a bit unnecessary, come on, individual headers along with the voice actor information all on one page? At most people would try to tink of ways of cleaning it up anyway) Anywho at most, the characters section already contains some of your suggestions anyway if you haven't seen it. May not be a long paragraph but hey, it still details it. Some of the characters dont have what you suggested such as personalities, but at most roles and personalities should really be all it contains. You can go ahead if you want, but other information like who designed them or who voices them, really just leave that to their character info pages. The portions where like say "she is quite strong and yadda yadda" describes their own natural abilities in games (which I believe is more than enough). But if you want, you can go ahead and add more personalities to those that dont already have them if you wish, or roles in games, or abilties, but the other bits I would suggest you leave out. Putting out that info and even more would lead to their own pages being useless in themselves or have people delete extra information which has been occuring lately (such as knuckles's appearances in other media)--Neofcon 15:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, looks like I misjudged my free time and I won't be able to work on this article right away, maybe in a month or two when things settle down a bit, I'll knuckle down and try to do my part to improve the article. And props to you, Neofcon, for being a decent guy once we worked out our differences. See you round sooner or later. ~~ Gromreaper^(Talk)/_(Cont) 02:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Meh I decided to shorten it a bit. --Neofcon 22:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Sega's Split Fanbase

Excuse my ignorance but exactly HOW did this happen? Neofcon

I'll explian it. Okay, you've got what is now adults right? Now when they were teens SEGA came up with the Master System and the Genesis, and the CD, etc. Back then they first came up with Sonic, and they introduced Tails and Knux in the second and third games. All Sonic games until Sonic Adventure were technically 2d, and back then Sonic's world was called Mobius, and Eggman went by Robotnik. With Sonic Adventure, SEGA trashed the US storyline with a sperate world for Sonic, which is the reason for Eggman having the name he has, he has always been EGGMAN in the Japanese version of the storyline, thus the Death Egg. At this point the "oldie" Sonic fans who prefered simple, 2d, 16 bit games with no storyline got mad at SEGA for embracing the future, while SEGA atracted a huge bunch of modern gamers, and just other people who don't have anything better to do with theri time. In the new games, additional charecters (such as Shadow, Blaze, Silver, Nega, Doom, etc) have pissed off old fans because they think each new charecter is stealing just a little more spotlight from Sonic, which originally was the ABSOLUTE MAIN POINT OF ALL GAMES. JUST SONIC. This has lead to a SEGA fanbase which is split over EVERY NEW GAME AND CHARECTER THREE WAYS. There's the thiry year old people who see Sonic the hedgehog for the Xbox 360, and Silver, and go "They got so confusing graphics now it hurts my eyes. Back in the days of the Nintendo and the Genesis, those were the good days" and those people spitefully give every charecter and game bad reviews, BY LOOKING FOR ANY BAD THING IN THE GAME OR CHARECTER THEY CAN CRITICIZE. BECAUSE ADULTS REVIEW GAMES, THIS MEANS MOST SONIC GAMES GET CRAPPY REVIEWS, AND YET BECOME BEST SELLERS. Then there is the second type of fans who go "SONIC ON THE XBOX 360! OH MY F***IN GOD! I LOVE SONIC MORE THAN BREATHING OH MY GOD!" who are so obsessed with Sonic that they paint themselves blue. They completly diss old stlye games, and swear by the new ones. The third type of fan doesn't criticize SEGA for new games, and although they prefer one type (old or new) they're willing to play the other occasionally, and commonly their favorite charecter is NOT SONIC. The multiple storylines from Japan and US have caused major confusion, and several comics and TV shows explain the split like Sonic X, or Tales of a Hedgehog. However, SEGA has stated that the Japanese story is the true one. THIS IS THE REASON SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG AND SONIC THE HEDGEHOG BOTH HAVE HORRIBLE REVIEWS AT EVERY SITE AND ARE BEST SELLING PLAYERS CHOICE, GREATEST HITS GAMES. CAUSE THE ADULTS DISS THEM FOR EVERY LITTLE THING, AND IF THEY'REs NOTHING TO DISS, THEY'LL MAKE UP A REASON TO NOT LIKE THE GAME, AND IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF CAUSE I'M A THIRD TYPE, AND I DON'T GO AROUND DISSING OLDIE SONIC GAMES FOR NO REASON. SO OLDIE FANS WHO DO THAT AND ARE READING... I think it's you, the adult who needs to grow up. Radman 18:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

...................wow man....thats....hard to believe....when did sega state that the japanese story was true first of all? Neofcon

NICE SPEECH. Everything you said is true. Adults do hate the new sonic games. I'm 16 and i continue to play sonic games even if they get bad reviews b/c i enjoy the hard work Sonic Team does to satisfy true sonic fans.--S200048 20:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)s200048

That was a very great speech. You are correct. Adult fanboys are known to be 2D purists! I think a reviewer who does like 3D Sonic titles should review a 3D game so it won't get bad reviews. And for those who hate playing as other characters, do us (who like playing as them) all a huge favor, GET OVER IT! if you want to play as Sonic, then play him. You don't have to see the final story if you don't want to. We love the 2D games too and tend to look back at them, but if you look back "too much", you stagnate! Thank you! - B.J.

Um.....look, I appreciate the answer but I can't help but feel your views are a little....over exaggerative. I doubt people who review games simply "make up" reasons to hate the games. They wouldn't be professional if the games didn't have their own faults. Sonic Next Gen has gained lower scores because of technical issues which have been stated by everybody (the load screens have been used as primary examples of this). B.J. playing as other characters isn't a bad thing, i'll give you that, but there are people who express disgust in how they PLAY! The amigo's in next gen have some of the most pathetic game-play mechanics (in my opinion) due to their weakened attacks and shortened portions in the game. Playing Tails or Rouge and even Amy have been frustrating as their offensive capabilities are pathetic and leave them open to devastating blows from enemies as they "stand still" to attack. This doesn't help since the actual decent characters (IE knuckles) have the least amount of game time in the whole game. Add to this that you are actually forced to play the other characters to get through a single level, switching almost "randomly for no reason" puts some people off and I think THATS what they meant. Cause it sure doesn't help me enjoy the experience. Now shadow the Hedgehog itself is the one I will take in account to all of your views, because yes this game can be seen as decent, and the game-play isn't piss poor as everyone details it and yes, I do believe that some immature belief's stem people to pan this game, but with titles like Next Gen, there are actual reasons to hate this game. I may be spinning this a bit cause in truth I actually like shadow over next gen, there are a few things I don't enjoy about shadow. The levels themselves are few when it comes to "replay-ability" and the multi-player is absolutely THE WORST i've ever seen in a sonic game/spinoff. There's absolutely NO excuse for that. And even though this game is completely all about shadow, the multi play COULD'VE allowed the other characters to be playable for at least more replay value than just plain old shadow clones. Neofcon

In my opinion, i think shadows game is the closest sequel to sonic adventure 2. Think about it, the levels the music the cooler enemy designs coughsonicheroescough. Actually this game was made by the sonic adventure 2 staff. I memorized the credits. Same level designers, music composer, director, producer, programmers were different though. Well thats why playing shadow made me happy. I'd rather rush thru a burning city than run thru a dumb beach level anyday.--S200048 15:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)s200048

Yo! Dont be dissin the Heroes models! THEY R TEH ROXXORZ! :P

But yeah I guess burning cities are better than silly beach levels. Now if the game didn't contain like 30% of that, the levels would be more enjoyable. Thats kinda my beef with Shadow's levels. Most of them feel exactly like the last stage you beat, with only a few that differ. Neofcon

Thanks, Neofcon. It's just that playing as other characters is like one of the series' main selling points. Sure the handheld games (like Sonic Advance 1,2,3 and Rush, which has less characters) are more well-received, but they never show as much interest as the console games. - B.J.

I think it goes towards the "second guy's" post with "purist gig". All the characters in the handheld games (besides battle) play nearly them same with only a few minor differences as seen in S3K. In the console games, they have a more defined gameplay aspect (albiet cruddy in Next Gen) and I believe people would use that as an excuse to say "I dont want to play as other characters, I want to play as sonic blah blah blah". The only issue with that argument is they GIVE NO ACTUAL REASON WHY! Its a gameplay reason more so than favoritism. They just wont admit that.Neofcon

Hey, Neofcon. How was Sonic Next Gen? I never played it because I don't own a 360 and PS3 Game. Also, why do many hate the game. I mean it's not like 3D titles never had glitches. Look at Sonic Adventure. Have you noticed that you can see the characters' mouths when they get hit. Literaly. - B.J.

I stated above a few reasons

"Sonic Next Gen has gained lower scores because of technical issues which have been stated by everybody (the load screens have been used as primary examples of this). B.J. playing as other characters isn't a bad thing, i'll give you that, but there are people who express disgust in how they PLAY! The amigo's in next gen have some of the most pathetic game-play mechanics (in my opinion) due to their weakened attacks and shortened portions in the game. Playing Tails or Rouge and even Amy have been frustrating as their offensive capabilities are pathetic and leave them open to devastating blows from enemies as they "stand still" to attack. This doesn't help since the actual decent characters (IE knuckles) have the least amount of game time in the whole game. Add to this that you are actually forced to play the other characters to get through a single level, switching almost "randomly for no reason" puts some people off and I think THATS what they meant. Cause it sure doesn't help me enjoy the experience."

Plus you have the ridiculous story, and the purchasing of moves that you really dont need to get past levels, etc. Neofcon

Wow, that bad, huh? I think they should have gave them each their own storys. I was also annoyed by the fact that the memories were erased from what I heard. But hey, I thought Secret Ring's story mode was alot worse by the silly book cutscenes. Also in the Mario and Sonic interview, there were some talks about "reinventing Sonic". That worries me as I'm afraid of Sega only having us play as Sonic again and doing another silly story. What do you think they're going to do? - B.J.

If reinventing the story means having a stupid plot that includes racing to "save chao" or fighting robotic pirates, then god help us. The only way to save sonic is by putting him in smash brawl if you ask me. [Spoiler]And basically the game had an "in-game" retcon, where Elise and Sonic go to the past and blow out the iblis flame which affects the future and nothing that occured in the game happened.[/spoiler] So the whole game was retconned and officially made SOnic Next Gen the most pointless game of all time if you ask me.

Yes, robotic pirates. I am pissed at Sega, and not for including more characters in their games. Part of the split is more than just age and interest division though. Part of it is this new character every game thing. I think Sega should keep the chars they have now and make NO MORE. They have enough underdeveloped characters. They shouldn't really kill any, but they need to work more on clearly defining the chracters that have been around the longest, and not trying to bring in more fans every game with Chars like Marine, Blaze, Nega, and such who serve no purpose except to be another character. They have brought this split upon themselves, and if they don't want to get their fricking asses strait then they deserve every second of this label of mediocrity which seems to be stamped on every Sonic game except Rush, Rings, and Olympic. I am pissed at them for being ridiculous. They are ambigous beyond comprehension on plot, they are retconning like crazy, they are introducing stupid new characters instead of defining old ones, and these include Robotic Pirates, Cats, Racoons, Alternate Future Eggmans, and HEDGEHOGS WHICH SHARE NAMES WITH PRECIOUS MEDALS!!! What next? Bronze, Gold, or Platinum? Sonic, Shadow, Mephiles, Metal Sonic, Amy, and Scourge the forgotten evil twin of Sonic wasn't enough? They had to add... Silver. Something needs to be done, and the current Sega staff are not going to do it. They're going to roll out Olympics, Rush Adventure, Rivals 2, Riders 2, probably Rings 2, and introduce new concepts and characters in EVERY one of them, rather than refining older ones. And the new characters they create now AREN'T EVEN THAT COOL. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CHARACTER DESIGNERS OF OMEGA, SHADOW, GAMMA, and CHAOS? Did they, die over overcharacterization?Radman 18:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh lord, who is this guy? So let me get this straight. Basically it's all sega's fault that their fanbase utterly refuses to get over two games in the series and constantly B**** about the growing cast of characters and games because they aren't "genesis" quality? Cause thats what im getting from you. The same constant whining and complaining and capslock-tastic speeches that run on about how many hedgehogs there are, how they should never make any new characters (which is actually a stupid idea considering that new characters open the way for new plots and bring in some fresh blood in the series. Anime cartoons bring in a new character every 2 episodes and no one complains about them. Sure it's gotten ridiculous but come on, stop making new characters altogether? They might as well make spin off titles for the rest of their lives if that were to happen.) And What exactly is wrong with NEW Concepts? Oh thats right, people are stuck on "2D sonic styled" games to look for new gameplay aspects. This constant fanboyism needs to cease. --Neofcon 22:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. What I meant is that Sega introduces characters like Marine, Blaze, and Big, and expects to get more fans. Sega should put more time into fewer characters and work on developing them rather than every single game a new character or more than one, a new villain, and new info regarding the Chaos Emeralds, which retcons all past statements. I'm not saying go back to Genesis, I'm saying that if Sega's going to roll out fifty five crap gay characters every year, and barely develop the ones they have any further or maybe create one new good one, they deserve some criticism. However, I think that critics are ridiculous when they hate new characters just because they're new. I hate some new characters because I think they're stupid, not because they're new. Sega does have an overwhelmingly large cast of minor characters and villains, and I think they need to streamline it a bit, that critics (the professional gaming critics) need to grow up about twenty years and embrace the future of Sonic (cause we all know the Genesis is NEVER going to return. I said it okay NEVER. There will NEVER be another Sonic genesis game where you can run around smashing robotic crabs again! Got it? So get over it and move on with life.) However, some serious consideration needs to go into what the future of Sonic should be, and what it shouldn't be. You can form your own opinions, but most of the REALLY new characters just aren't that cool, and most of the new villains and plotlines are confusing. Sega won't sell something old, and people wouldn't buy that now. So Sega has to look to the future, and people give em a bad wrap for that. All I'm saying is that my idea of the future and what it should be is a little different than Sega's. Radman 00:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh...I thought you were complaining like other sonic fans. Sorry for being ethered. But you know in either case I really doubt that we need a fourth arc explaining why tails wants to prove himself to sonic again, or why Amy's feelings are so strong, what more can they do with Shadow (like.....make him smoke sending the fanbase into a B-F frenzy :P). I suppose they should do more with knuckles...but we all know how that turned out. I think thats why they keep making new characters because they F up their old ones. Tails talks too much, Cream is HORRIBLE, they F'ed up the chaotix, it's like they actually TRIED your suggestions with the first 3 sonic 3D games but f'ed up everything with the advance series and 06. To be honest though the number of new characters ISN'T that large. I actually started getting crazy around the time Sonic Rush was made. But knowing Sonic Team, GAMEPLAY is the more important aspect and I believe we all need to share the same viewpoint, though for most it's hard to get over two games in the whole series (if you want to know why I keep saying "two" just ask. It's a long story). The future of sonic is not in the characters but rather in how the games play and if people keep harping about "genesis this that" he will never evolve. But you know this IS the american side of the popular opinion. We haven't heard what other nations think and I believe sega is trying to look at the whole picture and not just the american side of things. Sure we're the largest market but we don't determine their success (at least not completely) (this "larger" market gig has gone to some people's heads (refer to G4's forums if you'ed like your brain to rot over why that is)). The future for old icons however is growing very thin as new FPS/Gore/Sex-fested games come out, people care about those over classics. And like most people say, all things have an ending, and looks like most franchises (look at pacman) will end because the new generation has no regard for gods of the old. The mainstream order has tarnished a lot about what gaming has done for most of us "geeks" but the hardcore audience has lost their views.

Oh gee....I'm going "preacher" again aren't I?--Neofcon 00:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you implying that you think Sonic's going to die out of the world of video games? That can't happen! Pacman was a stupid concept, and if Sega got their asses in gear then Sonic could be a groundshaking series. But while they're all being ridiculous idiots, Sonic is still one of the largest gaming icons ever, and has outlived many icons by far. Not because people like Sega, but because people like Sonic (or another major character if your one of those Sonic haters (who hate the specific character of Sonic, but play the games for the other characters). Sonic may die someday, but I can defitely picture him outliving Mario, or Link, or Master Chief, or whatever your big thing is. Sonic is universal, and immortal in gaming. Spiky Blue Fast things will NEVER stop being cool, but someday, plumbers are not going to be all the rage. In fact, I think Mario's popularity is already starting to decline, as nintendo moves in to the age of the Wii... yeah. No comment on Wii if you get my drift. Anyways, I believe it will be a LONG, LONG time before Sonic becomes unpopular. Radman 01:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC) And by the way, preaching is fine. Preach it brutha!

Stupid concept? Have you gone mad? Stupid concepts are why we have comic book legends like Spiderman and Captain America. Stupid concepts are why people like Shigereu Myamoto is creating masterpiece after Masterpiece. Sonic the hedgehog has ALWAYS been a stupid concept. Every game from the early 90's to today have all been stupid concepts. Why were they stupid concepts? Because they were nonsensical. Fantasy lacks logical explanations for why things happen. Lacking logic = Nonsense. A Hedgehog is blue and can run fast. No logic. Nonsense. Look where he is now. Like you said, on top of the world. Mario, a plumber who's head is strong enough to burst blocks, and fighting monkeys, turtles, and deformed mushrooms to save a princess of a kingdom thats trapped in sewers. Nonsense again and look where he is. Back in the 90's, imagination was the defining quality of every piece of entertainment we have, and because of this new age where violence and sex is what the youth craves, that type imagination is being lost for bloodlust and perversion. This "stupid concept" is what made video games what they are today. Very fun games in which we lived our childhoods playing to feel like we were saviors of the world, to do illogical things that reality deems impossible for all eternity, to be able to brave the many realms of fantasy that only imagination can grant us in a key. Stupid Concept? If stupidity paves the way for originality and wonders of life, then God was right in forbidding Adam from tasting the fruit. Without fantasy, there is no imagination, without imagination, there is no dream, and without dreams, there is no ideals for the future.

There, how's that for preaching? :P Anywho I DOUBT he'd outlive Mario. He's still getting street cred from his homies the hardcore.--Neofcon 01:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has evolved into something different entirely than what it was when it started. Let me rephrase "Stupid Concept" I'm not saying it's illogical I'm saying you can't even pretend a yellow blob eating dots running away from ghosts in mazes is cool. While Sonic is cool, and always will be cool. Radman 04:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radman622 (talk • contribs)

I wouldn't worry much about the course of the discussion. People always go on different subjects when talking, it's inevitable. Like now even :P--Neofcon 20:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog article?

It strikes me that when people search for Sonic the Hedgehog, they are either looking for the character or the series. I purpose we change one of these to Sonic the Hedgehog (with nothing in parenthesis). Of course, this would require a massive change in many articles. We could still keep the information on the current Sonic the Hedgehog article, but it would be renamed Sonic the Hedgehog (disambiguation). Any thoughts on this? Has anybody suggested this before? Is it at all doable, or am I just being silly?

This idea is discussed under the same heading on Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog. Joiz ^A. Shmo 03:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sonic the hedgehog 2006 game.png

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BetacommandBot 03:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)