Talk:Flemish dialects

Language?

Since this article is really not about a separate language, I don't see the reason for keeping the title. If no one opposes, I'll move this article to Flemish (linguistics) after a week or so. This title is by far the most neutral, since Flemish dialect is bound to cause protests sooner or later. Peter Isotalo 12:28, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Since no one seems to be objecting, I'll make the move.

Peter Isotalo 08:45, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Fine but really, the language is called Vlaams and we do speak it. It is not Dutch and yes, confusing as it may be Dutch is the official Language... however, to insist in any way or form that Vlaams is not a language is deeply insulting to the people who speak it.Siegfried74 19:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as the Flemish language and it, as such is not spoken in Flanders or Belgium. Flemings speak Dutch, and Dutch dialects wether you like it or not. Sander 19:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

• The above type of discussion can go on till the end of Wikipedia (and longer), and still nothing good may come out of it if approached as black and white 'false/true' question. The annoying truth is somewhere in the middle: there are different (real, concurrent) definitions of Flemish, language, dialect (and not just in this context, e.g. some serious sources say there are about 100 Indian languages, other rather 600, depending on the border line betwen lanuages and (group of) dialects)... To be encyclopaedic, we must cater for various prevailing tasts, pointing out all linguistic meanings of Flemish fit within Dutch, but not necessarily interchangeably; the only inacceptable use of the word is for the official standard Dutch language. Thus all Flemish dialects are at the same time Dutch dialects (of which there are many other further north in the Low Countries), and it rather depends on the context (emphasizing historical use, linguistic similarity...) which term is to be preferred.

And Siegfried, as a Fleming I can testify many of us find it rather insulting (or worrying) when allophones call our language anything but Dutch since that means we can't expect them to know about our complex relationship with the North and mistake us for an insignificant backwater lingo, which was exactly what the Belgian francophony originally intended by calling 'our Dutch' Flemish, as if no Fleming could ever rise above boerish dialects; by now, even they started believing their own lies- I actually had a discussion on the matter with a Walloon (but non-hostile, clumsily 'bilingual') college graduate colleague who couldn't even believe it from a Flemish college graduate es literas. Fastifex 08:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

West Flemish

"...among which the most deviant is West Flemish, which is also spoken in the Zeeland province of The Netherlands."

I thought the most deviant Flemish dialect was West Flemish aka "bachten de kupe" (i.e., "achter de kuip", behind the tub, fig. inside the [river]bend), spoken from the Yser river to the language barrier with French, i.e., in the westernmost part of the province of West Flanders and in all or part of Flemish-speaking France but certainly nowhere in the Netherlands. If the text quoted above is in error, please correct it; if I am mistaken, please explain. - Tonymec 04:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

This is total nonsense. West Flemish is NOT spoken in the Netherlands. Someobody look at the geography of this place sheesh! Furthermore the tone of the word "deviant" is insulting.Siegfried74 19:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I begg you're pardon.West Flemish dialects are spoken in the Netherlands as well.In Zeeuws Vlaanderen, part of Zeeland in Sluis for instance. Your tone is the insulting one here. Sander 19:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Intro

I see that the introduction paragraph has been restored to a version similar to the one before my intervention. The reason I deleted most of this paragraph was because the statements in it were either inaccurate or irrelevant. This is what it says now:

the word "Flemish" may refer as an adjective to the dialects and as a substantive to varieties, spoken more widely in Flanders, of the Dutch language (which is one and undivided, as guaranteed by the Taalunie, an organisation set up by treaty between the governments of the Netherlands and the Flemish region) spoken in Belgium) which are, mainly for political reasons, sometimes referred to as "Flemish".

"as an adjective to the dialects and as a substantive to varieties" - this I just don't understand. As far as I'm concerned, dialects are varieties (vice versa is not necessarily the case). Also, as an adjective it does not refer to anything, but rather specifies something else (Flemish Dutch, Flemish people, Flemish city, whatever). "Spoken more widely" is a rather odd sentence, which can simply be exchanged for "spoken mainly in Flanders" (because this does not imply that no other languages are spoken there). Then the "one and undivided" part, which sounds rather nationalistic and POV to me. I fail to see the relevancy of the Taalunie here, because the Taalunie is only concerned with standardizing written Dutch, not the spoken language which is the basis of any linguistic analysis; suggesting Dutch is "one and undivided" is also misleading because it ignores the substantial dialectial variety. Finally, "the political reasons". Very few people would use "Flemish" for political reasons; if anything, those people would use the word "Vlaams". Also, "Vlaams" is used very widely in the Netherlands to describe one or more varieties of Dutch in Flanders, without any political connotation. So, these are the reasons why I will change the text once more. Junes 23:20, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel you should read the term "political" in a somewhat wider sense.--MWAK 18:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Complete redivison like Dutch version

Sandertje 11:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Politics and Linguistics

I've gone over some of the fuzzy prose about "Flemish" and "standard Dutch" on this page and on Dutch language. Really, I would favor an approach that more clearly separates linguistics from politics.

First of all, dialects are not dialects "of a language." Dialects just are, and depending on how close you look, you will observe more or fewer of them. Sometimes, the transitions between dialects will be more fluid; sometimes, there will be marked discontinuities, where transition forms are absent or rare. Dialects are but one example of language variation. Language use also varies by social situation (sociolects), profession (jargon, argot), and between ethnically or culturally distinguished groups that may live in the same areas.

Languages are whatever the powers that be say they are. The status of "language" is like a diploma or license conferred by a government upon a form of language, which may or may not come with a more or less specific definition of that form of language. It so happens that in Belgium, this status has been conferred upon three forms of language, that in conferring this status, the government has named them French, German, and Dutch, and that there does exist an institution that offers a rather specific definition of what is and what isn't Dutch.

None of these things are obvious from the start. There is no institution, for example, that has a monopoly on defining English, even though some, but not all, governments of countries where forms of language are commonly used that are referred to as English may designate "English" as an official language, usually without going into detail about which dictionary or grammar to follow. In countries where languages do not have the major political and historical significance that they have in Belgium, the choice of language even in formal functions such as government and education may not be regulated at all. Many universities, for instance, will accept theses in whatever language a particular thesis committee agrees to accept. I recall that in one class that I took in the US, which involved 12 different small discussion groups that students could choose from, one of the groups was taught in Mandarin Chinese upon the whim of a particular teaching assistant.

Given all of this, we should stop making statements such as "the Flemish and the Dutch speak the same language", and say more specifically things like: "the official language in Flanders and The Netherlands is Dutch, as defined by the Taalunie; while many dialects are spoken within these territories, the form of language perceived by speakers as Dutch and most commonly used in government and education conforms quite closely to this standard."

The reason I care so much is mainly that readers who are not used to language being such a strong political issue as it is in Belgium can be really confused by statements about what "the language is" and how people speak "the same language" if it isn't explicitly clarified what all the terms mean. Unsigned comment by 194.109.198.99

I've removed the part that said "As a rule of thumb, it is best always to use the term "Flemish" as an adjective of origin or geography, but never as a language. Although some people may stress that Belgians and Dutchmen "speak differently", the differences are actually quite marginal compared to the differences between the varieties of English spoken in one county of England and another, less than 100 miles away!" because the first part is a personal opinion and the last part is simply false. Krommenaas 22:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ethnologue says that Flemish and Dutch are different languages

Ethnologue clasify Dutch and Flemish as separate languages. What do you think about this?

• Flemish language
• Dutch language

--Er Komandante 10:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue, has a rather strange method of determining if a language is a dialect or a dialect is a language.I often feel as if they use the more philosophical meaning of "language" ie, a means of comunication ... Sander 14:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I tried to investigate the question, and another surprise: it has appeared recently a West Flemish Wikipedia. The language map of Ethnologue is this one: [1]. And I have found the request for this flemish wikipedia: meta:Talk:Requests_for_new_languages#West_Flemish_.2816_support.2C_1_object.29. Er Komandante 09:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Beware: what the ethnologue calls "Flemish" here is West Flemish. The map is very interesting. It reflects the deep truth that "Dutch" is another word for Brabantian. :o)--MWAK 18:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

'Different linguistic meanings of Flemish'

That chapter now incorporates a distinct practically perceived 'Flemish' speech ('linguistic' used as relating to language, differentiating from other meanings of 'Flemish'), setting it off against the more strictly scientific 'linguistic' view on the ancient regions' differences. This may lead to abandoning part of the next chapter 'Other dialects' and therefrom not clearly distinguishable content of then next chapter 'Language history'. Please note that the distinction between 'separate' or 'same' language is largely artificial: at least the article now states that in Limburg a separate language is spoken (see article Limburg as reference); as another example my own Mechlinian dialect – spoken in the west of, and north-to-south centrally in, the old Brabantian area – mixes 'ge' [Brabantian] and 'du' [eastern: Limburgish, German] (versus 'je' [western and northern: historical Flemish, Hollandish]). The dialects of ancient times may be interesting enough to study, but their differences are now becoming a mere shadow in view of the influences by Standard Dutch and migration on the practical 'Flemish' speech, which is or should be the main subject of the article. SomeHuman 2006-06-12 04:59 (UTC)

'General Dutch' or 'Common Dutch'?

User Rex Germanus started again to stubbornly replace 'Common Dutch' with 'General Dutch'.
Rex, I like to assume good faith thus you should have a good look in your own User talk:Rex Germanus/archive2 for our earlier discussion about 'General Dutch' or 'Common Dutch'. On Wikipedia you can find only 'General Dutch Youth League', 'General Dutch Fascist League' [or 'General D. F. Association', or 'General D. F. Union', or 'General D. F. Federation' for (Dutch language old spelling) 'Algemeene Nederlandsche Fascisten Bond' that makes clear it has nothing to do with the language, but must mean either 'General Federation of the Dutch nation's Fascists' or, theoretically, 'Dutch nation's Federation of General Fascists'], 'General Dutch Workers' Unions (ANWV)' [or 'General D. W. Association'], 'General Dutch Law' and 'General Dutch Company'.
These are all general somethings in the Netherlands or of the Dutch people and have nothing to do with the language. The single exception might be 'General Dutch Alliance (Algemeen Nederlands Verbond, ANV)' though I'm sure you're first interpretation of the term even in Dutch would have nothing to do with the language – and I think that organization wanted a 'Groot Nederland' (Flanders and the Netherlands back in one nation) thus 'General as well as Netherlandic Alliance', perhaps this particular translation would be improved by 'General Netherlandic Alliance'.
As stated before, the interpretation of 'Algemeen Nederlands' as 'general purpose Dutch' makes no sense because any other language is just as 'general purpose' and there are no such terms naming languages as 'General English', 'General German', or even 'General French' (though the Académie française acts more strictly than the Nederlandse Taalunie in standardizing the language). It is then clear that 'algemeen' in 'Algemeen Nederlands' means that the standard language is 'gemeen aan alle' or 'common to all' the speakers of one or another dialect native to the Dutch nation named 'The Netherlands' or to the Flemish region in Belgium, hence 'Common Dutch'.
I don't like that the language 'Nederlands' (the Netherlands was/were once the 'Low Countries' of which my home city in the nowadays Belgian region Flanders had been the capital for a while, and thus 'Nederlands' feels as much mine as yours) is called 'Dutch' (as if belonging to the Dutch people who are never Flemish, and thus as if the Dutch people would have colonialized my people by enforcing their language) in English, you don't like its standard language being called 'Common' (as if it might be vulgar and depreciated) and I assume you would oppose to Mean Dutch as well.  };-|>
We however, do not make the English language and have to convince the hundreds of millions of its users to forget 'Dutch' and 'Common Dutch' when referring to the language in general and its official standard respectively, and to generally accept more proper terms (Netherlandic and Mutual Netherlandic — or Shared Netherlandic? [Universal Netherlandic sounds best but would be over-the-top and it's not 'Universeel Nederlands' in Dutch either]), before we can put things our way in the English language encyclopedia. Anyway, the Dutch word 'algemeen' (as in 'Algemeen Nederlands') comes from 'al gemeen' ('all common' or in fact 'all vulgar' which is usually interpreted as strongly depreciating) but you don't think about it like that because we use 'algemeen' in a far more neutral way; this is also the case for English speakers regarding 'common' in most contexts. — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 11:18 - 12:36 (UTC)

Netherlandic? No, that sound kind of ridiculous. Thing is, "common Dutch" somehow sounds like "the speech of the commoners/plebs/proletariat" and I have seen many translations of AN with general. Translating "algemeen" heavily depends on context. A quick test, and this online translator translates algemeen as general.

Rex 12:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid your link does not work, but is it not rather ridiculous to even suggest that an online translator would be so capable to understand a context, as to be infallible in choosing the most appropriate translation where several different meanings of a word exist? In any case, one of the better online multi-language translation dictionaries that I encountered, in its its primary dictionary, reads 'algemeen' as synonym of 'gemeenschappelijk; gezamenlijk' as well as of 'universeel' and its translation for either interpretation is 'common'. (If you wonder where the shown secondary dictionary got its translations besides again 'common', click underneath on 'Translations of algemeen in other languages' and look at Latin). You deliberately step away from attempting to disprove any of my arguments and only confirm my assumption about the origin of your objection to 'common', which I explained to be mainly your personal interpretation and not something speakers of English are likely to see that way. It is not quite proper to then come up with as badly chosen an excuse for the, frankly, WP:POV translation that does not occur anywhere else on Wikipedia either. I'm glad though that you did not again revert this time and participate on this discussion. We will both have to learn and live with the quirks of the English language regarding ours. — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 13:40 (UTC)

It's funny, because that online dictionary link you provided translates general as algemeen...

Rex 13:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course Rex, how else? 'Algemeen' has more than one meaning thus the dictionary should give both 'general' and 'common' and each of the latter words should give 'algemeen'. Unfortunately there are not many good free Dutch/English and English/Dutch translation dictionaries online, this one however has a rather extensive vocabulary, be it not as comprehensive as to be ideal. You may have too look into 5 or so online translation dictionaries or simply use a good English language dictionary and look for 'common' and for 'general' and compare whether each gives at least one meaning that matches the Dutch language Van Dale for one of the meanings of 'algemeen'. I'm quite confident about the results.
By the way, why do you see 'Netherlandic' as rather ridiculous? First of all, the term is very close to the name of the language in that language; second, it also refers to the old situation (other than 'Lowlandic' which I think already has a linguistic meaning different from 'Dutch') that is the actual cause of us having a language in common; third, 'Netherlandic' is still occasionally used as an adjective referring to present-day particularities, of which few would more than our language deserve that term (see just this small grip, there are lots of others: [2], [3](Canadian, strictly about Dutch people, used just as 'English' may refer to the language spoken by Americans etc, or to the English people, [4], and especially some that use the term exactly the way I suggested: [5] (best read that article for its content as well!). — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 14:29 (UTC)

Well... if you are absolutely sure that English "Common Dutch" doesn't have the same negative connotation as has in certain Dutch translations ... then I'll leave the matter, forever.

As for Netherlandic, it's a made up word. It has no etymology of its own (nether and lad of course do), and to me at least it sounds like "kolenengels" : aai em sorrie but aai oownlie spiek netherlands.  ;-)

Rex 15:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

My academical suggestion (in the sense of 'wishful thinking') implied 'speaking Netherlandic', not 'speaking Netherlands'. So, I fully agree: I wish we could convince the numerous speakers of English, but as we did not yet succeed and do not expect such in the near future, the current use of 'Dutch' will have to remain. It is no more perfect than the 'Common Dutch'. Neither term does have a clearly or signifantly negatively intended or interpreted meaning; in almost any practical occurrence, the context (as official standard language especially in The Netherlands and in Belgian Flanders) will prevent an undesired connotation. That, at least, I honestly assume I can assure you. Only some might have a slight notion of these not being the most proper terms, and they will usually realize that there is no good alternative available in English as the world recognizes. I hope you forgive me for having outlined your texts so as to easily spot who was talking where in our discussion here. — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 16:07 (UTC)

Maybe you as a fleming have a different view on the word "Dutch". Afterall the Dutch speak Dutch, Flemings speak Dutch, but the Flemings aren't Dutch.

Rex 16:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 16:24 (UTC)

So I presume SomeHuman does not vote on Vlaams Belang? ;-)

Rex 16:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to add to may last message (but you were quickly): Exactly. Flemings might feel to be a little bit Netherlandic, see.  ;-)
I consider the choice of voting a necessary secret. May I however invite you to a former, meanwhile closed, discussion on [[6]]? — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 16:38 (UTC)

No it's just because Vlaams Belang advocates the unification of the Netherlands and Flanders.

Rex 17:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I would think so; its program has many points, some of the other ones are more likely to entice one to vote for that party, or rather not. — SomeHuman 2006-07-29 18:27 (UTC)

Language history

The introduction phrase of 'Language history' is unsourced. Rather than tagging the article, I put some {{fact}} tags at the particular aspects hereunder shown in italics:
"Standard Dutch is mainly formed from Brabantic dialects, with major inputs by Hollandic (as its forging happened largely when emigrants from Antwerp (Brabant) resettled in Haarlem and other cities in Holland) and (countship-)Flemish dialects."
The sentence can be interpreted as 'Standard Dutch had initially a [main] input by Brabantian dialects, [more major]/[less major] Hollandic inputs and [equally major]/[minor] (countship-)Flemish inputs have superceded that origin', or 'Standard Dutch still is Brabantian though with a considerable influence by Hollandic and to [an equal]/[a lesser] extent by (countship-)Flemish'. The latter is, to my opinion, obviously incorrect. The phrase in the article should then exclude that interpretation; the weight of 'main' versus 'major' is not clear; whether 'major' is only an attribute to Hollandic or as well to (countship-)Flemish is just as unclear. The (rephrased) sentence as a whole may still need to be properly sourced. I am not asking for diplomatic sources (both the Netherlands and Belgium had their reasons to claim a common, balanced input), but for comparative linguistical studies of grammatical structures and of vocabulary – historically and at present. — SomeHuman 17 Sep2006 04:11-04:26 (UTC)

I too don't like the "language history" section, if only because of the word "language". Although "language" can be interpreted in many ways, this can (and probably will) created confusion.

As for the history of ABN (which is a totally different concept compared to Standard Dutch) ... ABN emerged in the 1920s as the accent of the Hollandic elite and was perhaps spoken by 2%/3% of the population. If nobody minds I will remove it until this matter is resolved.

Rex 08:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

'Standard Dutch' is the term used in descriptions for 'ABN' [which meanwhile was renamed as 'AN' (either because we became less civilized, or because our civilized behaviour is taken for granted)] – also outside Wikipedia, for instance Dutch language, alphabet and pronunciation: "Alternative names for ABN are Algemeen Nederlands (AN), general Dutch, and Standaardnederlands , standard Dutch". If a difference is noteworthy, at least the article (and a few others) should not allow confusion: Is the difference described elsewhere? If not, we once more need some source and it should be stated.

The whole thing disturbs me because far too often, also outside Wikipedia, AN is suggested to be for a large part Brabantic – while my daily experience with AN and with my own Brabantian dialect as well as hearing several other (mostly Belgian) Brabantine dialects, contradicts such. I do not wish to judge whether removing is better: In case you may need a considerable time, perhaps you might already slightly improve the text and then continue looking for sources before trying out a really good text.

Note that unlike 'ABN (disambiguation)', 'AN' so far was the disambiguation page itself, and it did not yet mention 'AN' as short for 'Algemeen Nederlands'. I'm going to take care of this disambiguation style and extra meaning for AN right now. — SomeHuman 17 Sep2006 12:02 (UTC)

That fact that your own experience contradicts the historical fact that standard Dutch is based mainly on Brabantian is caused by a confusion: it obviously isn't based on the present Brabantian dialects — which have changed quite a bit in the last four centuries — but on the Brabantian standard as it had developed in the late 16th century. Of course the present Hollandic urban dialects are much closer to the standard, simply because they are mainly derived from it, the original Hollandic urban dialects having been all but destroyed. If you need to be convinced, don't consult your experience but any book printed in Antwerp around 1580 :o)--MWAK 19:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

ISO 639-1 / ISO 639-2 codes

According to the official ISO 639-2 Registration Authority page at http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/langhome.html the codes "Fl" or "flem" are assigned neither to Flemish nor to anything else. Can someone clarify where those codes come from? Thanks, --S.K. 18:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)