Talk:TNA World Championship

True TNA World Heavyweight Title History

Debates like these are usually just a matter of opinion, so that's what I'll ask for...

In your opinion, where do you see the TNA World Heavyweight Title history starting? Do you see it starting on May 13, 2007 with Christian Cage holding the physical NWA World Heavyweight Title, after being stripped by the National Wrestling Alliance, and using the physical belt as a substitute in starting the history of the TNA World Heavyweight Title upon being the first champion? That night at the TNA "Sacrifice" Pay-Per-View, Christian Cage would go on to lose the World Title to Kurt Angle in a match that also involved Sting, keeping in account that the physical NWA World Heavyweight Title was being used. Earlier in the night, Team 3D also defended and retained their "NWA" World Tag Team Titles against LAX and Scott Steiner & Tomko.

Or do you see the TNA World Heavyweight Title history starting on May 14, 2007 (May 17th air date) on iMPACT! on Spike TV? Kurt Angle walked down to the ring with the TNA World Heavyweight Title around his waist. The show opened with a video package showing Kurt Angle in the back locker room holding the NWA World Heavyweight Title with him saying something along the lines of... "This is why I came to TNA, to win wrestling's most coveted prize." I don't have the exact quote on hand, but I can go back to the tape and get it for anyone that may want it. Once Kurt walked out on iMPACT! with the TNA World Title though, Mike Tenay said on commentary that due to the major global expansion of TNA Wrestling, Jim Cornette has made the decision to recognize exclusive "TNA" World Champions from here on out. Again, I can get the exact quote for you guys if you want.

urtJim Cornette later came out and stripped Kurt due to the fashion he won the title the night prior at Sacrifice. It was ruled that an undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be determined at TNA Slammiversary in a King of the Mountain Match.

So if you don't consider Christian Cage being the first champion, or Kurt Angle on May 14, 2007 being the first champion, then surely you think Kurt Angle on June 17, 2007 at Slammiversary, was the first TNA World Heavyweight Title reign. That night, Kurt retrieved the title and that's when Don West spoke out. Many think he said Kurt was the first champion that night, but he didn't, he said Kurt Angle was the first "pure" TNA World Heavyweight Champion, possibly meaning that he wasn't the first ever champion, but he was the first champion with no doubters going against his win, it was a clean win.

These are all different angles you can look at it. Now... who was the first champion in your opinion, where did it start, and when did it start?

Something else to think about before you speak...

On July 18, 1993, Ric Flair defeated Barry Windham to win the NWA World Heavyweight Championship; however, recognition was dropped by NWA in September 19, 1993 when WCW withdrew from NWA. WCW continued to recognized Ric Flair as a "World Heavyweight Champion" with the physical NWA World Heavyweight Title. In fact, Ric Flair lost the physical NWA World Title the night the recognition of the NWA was dropped on September 19, 1993, and he lost it to Rick Rude. The NWA did not recognize Rude as a former NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Just like TNA did in 2007 though, the WCW that night did recognize the matches as being NWA Title matches. After the fact though, they renamed the title the WCW International World Heavyweight Title, and recognized the matches that night on September 19, 1993 to be WCW Title matches. Same can be said for TNA, as the TNA Sacrifice 2007 DVD features the TNA World Title on the cover with Christian, Sting, and Angle all looking at it.

So, now's your time to speak... What do you think? MC511 20:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It starts at Slamiversary, TNA.com had it on there official website saying it started at Slamiversary.The DVD just has it on there becuz TNA does not want to recognize the old NWA title. Don West saying PURE ment that the first champion without the affiliation of the NWA.We have already had a LONG AGONIZING debate on this lol--71.139.17.160 01:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Bah, we all know what the history is, no matter how they referenced Angle's OFFICIAL TNA TITLE WIN, he's the first champion, his first "reign" was one that was reversed the next night. The title he won from Christian was the interim world title that was marked out of the history books because Angle walked out of the building with the title(in kayfabe) without a mutual decision being made by the officials, Cornette reversed the decision on Impact. Yes, there can be title reigns that are reversed and don't go down in the title histories, look at Jericho's in the WWF and look at Hogan's in the AWA. TonyFreakinAlmeida 19:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

We should note these as unofficial reigns then. MC511 16:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• • The following is just my opinion … Last night during Impact, Mike Tenay referred to Sting as a two-time TNA World Heavyweight Champion. They have referred to AJ Styles, Christian Cage, and Ron Killings as former TNA World Champions. I think maybe we should start the World Heavyweight Championship history on June 19, 2002, when Ken Shamrock won the Gauntlet for the Gold and make note that it from 06-19-02 until 05-13-07, the World Champion and World Championship was recognized by and represented both TNA and NWA, and when Kurt Angle won King of the Mountain on 06-17-07, he became the first champion to be recognized solely by TNA. (I also believe this is how the history should be for the World Tag Team Titles) TNAFan80 17:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you on that. After all, when Ken Shamrock became the first World Champion on June 19, 2002, Mike Tenay said that evening that Shamrock was the first ever NWA-TNA World Heavyweight Champion. And as you've said, they're calling their champions former TNA Champions that were recognized and sanctioned by the NWA. These are World Champions recognized by both companies, yet TNA owns the rights to these reigns. 70.68.62.143 18:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• • Also note that between 2002/2007, when the NWA Champion was defending the World Championship, it was also billed as the “TNA World Championship” many times, due to Independent promotions not wanting to have to pay an extra fee to NWA promotions. The names “NWA Championship” and “TNA Championship” really became interchangeable during those five years. TNA and NWA both had to recognize the World Champion in TNA Wrestling starting in June 2002, and I just think starting the history on 06-19-02, and making note that the Ken Shamrock and all champions after him were the “World Heavyweight Champion” as recognized by and representing both TNA Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance is logical. TNAFan80 20:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent explanation. The best I have heard on here for quite some time. We need to change this page to reflect this, and same goes for the Tag Team Titles. I do remember when Christian Cage was World Champion in TNA in 2006, many sites did call him TNA World Champion instead of NWA World Champion for the reasons you mentioned. MC511 21:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the comments Ohg made below, that pretty much sums it up. TNA World Title and NWA World Title are two different championships. TNA no longer wishes to reference the NWA or it's world championships which they at one time used in their promotion. I find it stupid that they call past NWA world tag and heavyweight champions of their company TNA world champions and the like, they should just keep it simple and refer to them as former World ??? Champion and such, but this is revisionism in their own right. The TNA World Title was created and established in May of this year, it's first official champion was crowned on June 17th and that was Kurt Angle.

They created the title with a title reign that was stricken from the record in Kurt Angle's, and no, it should not even be noted in the history as unofficial, as it was blatantly made note on TV that the decision from the previous night was reversed. Kurt never won a world title on May 13, the officials didn't come to a clear consensus, the whole angle was done so that there'd be confusion amongst announcers, the ring announcer(Borash) and the officials as to what happened. In reality, Sting pinned Christian first, and the referees, along with Sting, botched the finish and Sting tapped out seconds after he clearly got the pin on Christian. The story with the finish was that an official spoke too soon and Borash announced Angle as champion, and Angle celebrated and left the building with the title belt(which would transform into a new title belt over night, TNA never explained this). Bla bla bla, Angle was first champ. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• • k Angle was first champ.TNA just referrences other people as Former World Champions due to legal issues. Basicaly what they are saying is. Sting in now a 2 time World Champion IN TNA. kurt Angle was the first TNA Champion.--71.139.27.79 20:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I like to ask why Sting's reign only last two days and Angle won the title on October 16, 2007. I think it should be the date when TNA recognizes the title changed hands, which is October 25th, 2007. For all other title reigns, it is recognized the day it is shown and not the day it is recorded. Amazingedge (talk) 04:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Because Sting lost the title two days after Bound For Glory during an Impact taping. Even though the show aired on October 25, the title change occurred on October 16. Same thing is done for SmackDown!-- bulletproof ^3:16 04:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't found any discussion of the information TNA provides here: http://www.tnawrestling.com/content/view/218/84/ I would think that if TNA provides their title histories that's what this article should reflect. Though pointing out differences from the official version as is the case with Wikipedia acknowledging Antonio Inoki a WWE Champion even though today WWE doesn't, through previously did. Fan2000 (talk) 03:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with you. We always reflect to what WWE.com puts forth with their title histories despite what we "may think", and now that TNA has put forth their official title history on TNAwrestling.com, I think we should reflect the history here on Wikipedia just as we have done with WWE. 70.68.56.48 (talk) 07:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Not so fast

None of this holds water because of a very simple fact that is being ignored:

The NWA and TNA World Titles are 2 completely different Titles with 2 completely different histories.

What you're doing would be like if we went back to 2002, after Brock Lesnar took the WWE Title to Smackdown, and HHH was given the World Title on Raw, and continuing the history of the WWE Title like this: Undertaker-->Rock-->Brock-->HHH-->HBK-->HHH-->etc.

The NWA World Title is still an active championship with it's own independent history.

The TNA World Title was created after NWA and TNA cut their ties.

You can't mix and match histories--2 belts, 2 histories.

Ohgltxg 22:19 October 26, 2007 (UTC)

• • IN MY OPINION … I have to disagree with you, I believe it is ONE title, the “World Heavyweight Championship”, with a history being recognized by TWO promotions, Total Nonstop Action Wrestling to present) and the National Wrestling Alliance.

When Ken Shamrock won a Gauntlet for the Gold to become the World Heavyweight Champion on June 19, 2002, both Total Nonstop Action Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance recognized him as their World Heavyweight Champion.

The National Wrestling Alliance continued to recognize the World Heavyweight Champion in TNA Wrestling as their own champion until May 13, 2007. TNA Wrestling didn’t withdraw their recognition of the World Heavyweight Championship on May 13th, the history remained intact and the championship was held-up following a controversial match.

When Kurt Angle won the World Heavyweight Championship on June 17th, he become the FIRST World Champion in TNA Wrestling that was solely recognized by TNA Wrestling. TNAFan80 02:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You bring up an interesting argument there, but one that lacks much evidence, TNA could claim that they had their own World Heavyweight Title from the beginning, similar to when WCW and NWA unified their World Tag Titles, and whenever a team won those titles, they'd be put on both the NWA World Tag and WCW World Tag histories, we'll have to wait and see though. This is weird because really I can't see a flaw in it except for the fact that TNA never had their OWN branded world title until this year. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

== Isn’t TNA Wrestling already claiming that they had their own World Championship from the beginning by referring to such former champions as AJ Styles, Ron Killings, Sting, and Christian Cage as former “TNA World Heavyweight Champions”? I believe the World Heavyweight Championship History for TNA Wrestling should start on June 19, 2002. Here are the three main bullet points in the World Heavyweight Championship history for TNA Wrestling:

• • [The first World Heavyweight Champion in TNA is crowned on 06-19-02, when Ken Shamrock wins a Gauntlet for the Gold Match. Ken Shamrock is recognized and represents both Total Nonstop Action Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance as World Heavyweight Champion.]

• • [Following several weeks of negotiating, TNA Wrestling and the NWA officially end their working agreement. NWA withdraws THEIR recognition of the World Heavyweight Championship and reigning champion Christian Cage, however TNA Wrestling continues to recognize Christian Cage as THEIR World Heavyweight Champion. Following a controversial finish to the World Heavyweight Championship Match featuring Christian Cage, Sting, and Kurt Angle on May 13th, TNA Wrestling holds up the World Heavyweight Championship on May 14th.]

• • [Kurt Angle wins the forth annual King of the Mountain Match on June 17, 2007 to win the held-up World Heavyweight Championship, and becomes the FIRST World Champion recognized solely by TNA Wrestling, without joint recognition with the National Wrestling Alliance.] TNAFan80 16:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you spoke up, I couldn't have said it any better than you. We need to take your facts here and transform it onto the actual page. And you're right, at Slammiversary they never did say going in that the winner would be the first ever TNA World Champion, they said the winner would win the vacant TNA World Title. And Christian kept saying he was going to win "back" what was rightfully his. Also, last week on iMPACT! they said Sting is a 2-time TNA World Champion. Of course once recognized by both NWA & TNA, and the 2nd time solely by TNA. Check this out: http://www.cygywrestling.com/titlehistories/tnaworldheavyweighttitlereigns.html 70.68.62.143 17:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

TNAfan your argument would work if you had sources to back yourself up, but you don't. Also, Cygywrestling is just a website, with all due respect to Marcus, he has some things wrong and some information twisted, and that web page can't really be used as an official source as they are not the writers of the history books here, that's upto TNA. TNA doesn't have a title history page up on their current web site. Also, take this into account, but TNA never called the NWA titles they had in their promotion TNA titles, the old web site's title history strictly called the titles in the title history NWA world Heavyweight and NWA World Tag Titles. Yes they booked the titles, but they never referred to them as TNA Titles, plus, if TNA decided to take the dual title stance in the future, that'd be a clear sign of revisionism, which I'm pretty sure the Wikiproject is clearly against. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• • The source should be TNA Wrestling. TNA Wrestling continued to recognize the reigning World Champion (Christian Cage/Held-Up) and World Tag Team Champions (Team 3D) in TNA Wrestling, even after the National Wrestling withdrew their recognition. TNA Wrestling NEVER interrupted the history, it has remained in tact. I feel like no matter how I explain it, the fact remains, that TNA Wrestling NEVER broke the history of the titles. TNAFan80 20:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, if that's the case, they've never referenced it, ever. Unless you can find that TNA has held a trademark for TNA World Heavyweight Championship the last five+ years, I'd be willing to take it, but they never referenced a TNA World Heavyweight Championship until this year. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• • The TNA Wolrd Title begins on June 17th 2007. TNAwrestling.com said this twice.Bill banks in an interview and on there Title History page. The only reason TNA refeers to Aj Stles , Sting, ect as TNA world champions is becuz they dont have ther rights to use the NWA title AT ALL. Basically the way WWE cant use the WWF logo anymore. IF u buy Wrestlemania 2000. It will be called WWE wrestlemania 2000, but in reality it was WWF wrestlemania 2000.--71.139.27.79 20:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, WWE can't use the Attitude Era WWF logo anymore. I'm not sure if the end of the NWA relationship meant no more NWA references again in TNA, but it was something apart of their history and I'd think they'd be entitled to state the other promotion's titles' names, unless the end-deal was to completely eliminate NWA references from TNA. But yes, TNA World Title started this year, TNA World Tag Titles started this year, end of story. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

From TNA

This is from Tnawrestling.com's official xtreme community page. It is actually Kurt Angles official profile. It is basically an updated version of his profile that is on the roster page. In it it states that Angle became the first TNA champion. Here is the link. http://www.xtremeregime.com/?L=users.profile&id=4435 I honestly think its time to stop this debate. TNA has now wat...5 times at least stated that Kurt Angle is the first TNA Champion. The only reason they call others before him is legal reasons. We cant change history, And the TNA world heavyweight championship title history starts with Kurt Angle.--71.139.27.79 21:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sacrifice 07 - World Title Match

Which World Heavyweight Title was Christian Cage defending at TNA Sacrifice 2007? The NWA World Heavyweight Title or TNA World Heavyweight Title? MC511 10:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This has been done to death, but it's automatically assumed given TNA's stance on Angle being the first TNA World Champion, crowned at Slammiversary, that Christian defended the NWA title. Given that he was stripped about 10 hours before this however, he truly, in reality defended no title. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it was definitely a World Title recognized by TNA, in the form of the physical NWA World Title. MC511 19:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Its the NWA Title match only recognized by TNA--71.139.29.21 00:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• • In reality Christian Cage DID defend a title, the “World Heavyweight Championship”, as TNA Wrestling continued to recognize Christian Cage as the reign World Heavyweight Champion. TNAFan80 02:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that they referred to him as simply World Heavyweight Champion on the graphic during his entrance, and they did announce him as NWA Heavyweight Champ of the World(Borash did) during in-ring introductions, pretty much says to me that they were even confused about what they were doing. I consider basically Cage's reign on May 13th an interim WHC reign, if he had won, he'd be the undisputed World Champ of TNA, but that's not how wrestling works. Arguing about this will go NOWHERE. Seriously, this topic died months ago, TNA's consensus is that the WHC at Sacrifice was the NWA title, or at least an interim championship, and Angle officially became first TNA World Champ at Slammiversary in June. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Though Christian would still be considered the first TNA Championship (unofficially). Guys this is no different than what WP:PW has done before. Whether or not a promotion recognizes a reign, we still list it with a little "↑" next to it noting that the promotion doesn't recognize that specific reign even though another one does. See the WCW and NWA Championships for instance. Hell even the WWE Championship. Its been done time and time again. I don't see why we should take an exemption with TNA-- bulletproof ^3:16 17:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Its not confusing,it simple. On May 13th Angle won the NWA title reign, even tho the NWA doesnt aknowledge it, and on June 17th Kurt Angle became the First TNA Champion.--71.139.5.224 07:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No its not simple.(Using your argument) On May 13th the NWA severed all business relationships with TNA, effectivally stripping Christian Cage of the NWA title, even though TNA doesn't aknowledge it. Therefore the title that Cage lost to Angle was not the NWA title and Kurt Angle became the First TNA Champion on May 13th. -- bulletproof ^3:16 07:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Even though a certain promotion doesn't recognize a reign we still list it. Why? Because it still happened. We did it for Benoit's unrecognized WCW title reign in List of WCW World Heavyweight Champions and countless other cases in championship articles. The TNA title should be no exception. -- bulletproof ^3:16 07:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, WCW did recognize Benoit's WCW title win, as does the WWE today. Benoit himself didn't recognize it though, and neither did WWE when they had his profile page out on the web site. Benoit didn't feel he worked for that title and saw the decision of putting the belt on him as a last resort from Kevin Sullivan to keep him with the company. But! Here with Angle's reign as Champion that lasted less than a day, it could be considered that his "win" the night before was totally reversed and made unofficial, therefore his reign wouldn't go down in the books. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

May 13th is the only somewhat contraversial win. But thats the NWA title.The fact is the first time the TNA title was on the line was at Slammiversary,so Angle is the first and third TNA Champion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.12.236 (talk) 10:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Nope. The NWA Title was stripped hours before the show meaning that the title Christian defended was not the NWA Championship.-- bulletproof ^3:16 06:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

So we are recognizing that Christian Cage was the first TNA World Champion then, and that Angle became the 2nd champ and 3rd champ after it was vacated. MC511 (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

We can not reconize anything. We can simply report what others say, and TNA originally did consider Cage the first TNA champion (but later changed their mind). TJ Spyke 02:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

So that's revisionism on TNA's part. We still recognize the original history here, just like we do with WWE history. WWE has revised history, but we still recognize the original history here. We should with TNA too. 70.68.143.170 (talk) 06:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

TNA still recognizes Shamrock through Cage as being world champions and champions of their company, and they DO still say "TNA world champion" but that's much like the WWE saying Undertaker is a 6 time world champion, when technically he's 4 and 2 with 6 total. The NWA title and TNA title are separate belts and I do think they should be recognized separately, especially since when Angle won the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary 2007 he was called "the first TNA world heavyweight champion" on Impact.CyclopsScott (talk) 07:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Final History

Ok this is really starting to piss me off so im gonna fix this. First off is the NWA title match at Sacrifice. It WAS an NWA title match. Cage was announced as the NWA champion and brought the physical belt out with him. The TNA title was non existent at this time. Yes the NWA stripped Cage, but TNA had the rights to the belt until midnight. I even read that After the match Angle got to the back and handed an NWA official the title. o if anything this is an unffocial NWA title reign, NOT a TNA title reign. Seconf, on whether to include former NWA champions as TNA champions. NO. TNA said and even provided a link stating that the TNA title history started at Slammiversary. The only reason they call Sting and others "former TNA champions" is because they either cant use the NWA name anymore and.or because they want to better establish themselves. For us to do so would be changing history, and we cant do that. So the bottom line is that on June 17th,2007, Kurt Angle became the FIRST TNA champion. Please give this issue a rest.--71.139.22.30 (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that you said "TNA had the rights to the belt until midnight" just made your entire argument BS. Nowhere was it stated in the announcement made by the NWA that TNA had the rights to the titles until a specific time. The fact of the matter is that the NWA stripped Cage and 3D of their NWA titles on the morning of May 13 2007. Meaning that whether TNA liked it or not, Cage was their new World Heavyweight Champion at Sacrifice.-- bulletproof ^3:16 20:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Good explanition but to make it better show us the TNA link that it staatred in slammiverary and that kurt angle gave back the unoficail NWA World Heavyweight Championship SocialistRevolution (talk) 14:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

But...the video of Trobich officially stripping Cage and 3D of their NWA titles was put out about 9 hours before the PPV started... You have a huge hole in your argument. No one but dirtsheets claimed that TNA had control of the title booking until midnight, so no source really is going to work for this. Cage being stripped of NWA title before the show, and then being billed as Heavyweight champ later is enough to say that he was an unbranded World Champion(maybe the interim TNA world title). This argument is stupid, you have no sources, I know Cage was billed as NWA Champion by Jeremy Borash but the problem here is, it was only Borash. Angle was announced as being new Heavyweight Champion of the World, and Christian during his entrance, above his name on the screen only read "World Heavyweight Champion" with no mention of NWA or TNA. It could be considered that he was an unbranded World Champion, and pending in kayfabe the result of the match he could have been the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Borash could have made a mistake announcing at the beginning. Who knows, until TNA puts out their title history, no one will know. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

The link died when TNA changed there website. Bullshit, theres no way in hell that it was a TNA title match at Sacrifice, if anything it was a Stand In world title match. History starts at Slammiversary.--71.139.35.216 (talk) 20:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Yeah. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 23:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and that TNAWrestling account on here, more than likely isn't real. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Its not. -- bulletproof ^3:16 02:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• TNAWrestling was my account name before I was asked to change it by the Wikipedia staff.TNAFan80 (talk) 02:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand why, your old name made it sound like you worked for TNA. It's the same reason they don't want someone to have "Admin" or "Bot" in their username (or the name of a real person unless they can proof they are that person). TJ Spyke 02:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

how bout this? the NWA championship was outed earlier that day, then that match was for a vacant TNA World Championship like it was at Slammiversary. but, it was held up cause of a dusty finish in the same way the WHC was in 2004. end of storyJordan Morrison Payne 03:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

No. You don't get it. NWA stripped Cage earlier in the day. TNA continued to bill Cage as World Heavyweight Champion regardless, with Cage holding the NWA belt(refer to first point). You can't change history to fit your own views. What is done is done. Cage is unofficially your first TNA World Champ by default, Kurt Angle is unofficially your second TNA World Champ, then it goes on from there. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The match wasnt a NWA World Title match, earlier that day Christian Cage was stripped of his NWA World Title thus becoming the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Yes Christian was introduced as NWA World Champion and had the physical belt but he was not the NWA Champion and had not been for a couple of hours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.91.139 (talk) 22:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's a little doubt that I have. I always assumed that when Angle won the world championship from christian (whatever that championship was) it was vacated and the victory revoked due to the controversial finish. So if it was revoked should Angle's reign, even if unofficial, coun't at all. I don't see Ted DiBiase's, Owen Hart's or Jericho's revoked reigns on the WWE championship's list of champions. If u agree that Christian's unofficial world championship reign should be listed on this page then the wiki standard should be followed and angle's reign shouldn't be listed. How Christian's reign ended should be written in his own reign. What do u guys think? Secretaria (talk) 23:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This was a point that I tried to make last year but yes, Angle's victory was reversed and declared a no contest. Cornette did sure as hell say plainly though, that no matter what the official result was, Christian sure did not win the match since he got pinned. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 16:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Can someone familiar with the subject check these edits by a vandal IP? Thanks, delldot talk 19:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Sting was only champion for two days

Wikipedia does not count TV days as champion, only real days. And in real days Sting was champion for 2 days. Not 11. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riseagainstowns (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

New Page for List of Champions?

Now that we are recognizing the TNA-era NWA World Champions as being connected in lineage with the TNA World Champions, is it time to create a seperate page for the list of champions and list of reigns? We have decided to recognize these champions from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007 because TNAwrestling.com and TNA Wrestling officially recognizes these reigns as being connected with the history of the TNA World Heavyweight Title and TNA World Tag Team Titles respectfully. This is the same situation with the WWE United States Heavyweight Title in which WWE.com recognizes the WCW reigns and NWA reigns being connected as one with their United States Title. The World Heavyweight Title in TNA started on June 19, 2002 and has transformed from the sanctioning of the NWA to the severing of business relationship, to where the champions are now recognized single-handedly by TNA Wrestling without sanctioning. MC511 (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's only 15K, that's a more than manageable size. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

When do we make the switch then? 70.68.56.48 (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Uh, there's reason why the NWA and WCW parts of the US title are recognized up until the WWE branded US title...because they're all the same. The NWA and TNA World titles however aren't the same. There's no problem in showing the history of World Titles in TNA on this page, but the NWA and TNA titles from June 2002 til now are not the same title. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I know. The history of World Heavyweight Champions in TNA were once sanctioned by the NWA, but they no longer are now since the NWA recognizes their own World Heavyweight Champion once again. MC511 (talk) 06:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You know your ideas that your pushing for how this page should read are revisionism, correct? Revisionism is recognized as unofficial here in regards to titles. TNA doesn't say shit about NWA "sanctioning" on that title history page. You're pushing this stupid idea that the TNA Heavyweight Title has existed for almost 6 years now, just it was called the NWA title. That's not what happened. TNA leased out the NWA Heavyweight and Tag Team Titles to give credibility to their company. They aren't the same titles as the NWA ones. Revisionism view is what TNA claims is the title's complete history from 02-current. It isn't true. Just like WWE says that Backlund had a continuous reign at one point that he didn't lose the title to Inoki, it's revisionism. It's recognized on here that the title did in fact change hands to Inoki though it goes unrecognized. Just like the WWE recognizes Flair as a 16 time world champion when he's in fact over that count, the encyclopedia here recognizes everything. This page is skewing the facts. The TNA Heavy, and Tag Titles didn't exist until May 14th last year, at the taping where they first introduced the new title belts and under their new TNA branded names. Just because TNA is claiming that the NWA and TNA titles from '02-current are the same doesn't make it true. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 06:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

TFA's right. The Inoki/Backlund scenario is a good example. Wikipedia can't claim that Inoki is a former WWE Champion because the WWE doesn't consider him to be a former WWE Champion. That would be substituting personal opinion over the official lineage of the championship. However, Wikipedia does mention that Inoki defeated Backlund for the title, though the reign isn't recognized by WWE. It's the same thing regarding the TNA and NWA World Championships. TNA can claim all they want, but the actual facts are quite different and the actual facts are what have to be recognized. TNA can't officially lay claim to the NWA World Heavyweight and Tag Team Championship lineages no matter what they might say on television because the NWA titles aren't their property. The NWA World Heavyweight and Tag Team Championships are controlled by the NWA and their interpretation of the championship lineages supercede that all others.Odin's Beard (talk) 14:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, first of all the NWA World Heavyweight Championship and TNA World Heavyweight Championships are not the same championships. Second, because of that, all the wrestlers that won the NWA World Title when it was under TNA's control, are not "TNA World Championship" reigns, because under TNA's control, the NWA World title was not renamed to the TNA World title, simply, basically the NWA was lending TNA the title, and then the NWA stripped TNA of their rights to defend the title in their company, and they had to "create" new championships. So under the new championships, new reigns began, because a separate title was created. Using the WWE is a bad example, because they basically bought all assessts of WCW and ECW, so they have the right to do whatever they want with the championships, and when they introduced the WWE United States Championship, they stated they "reactivated" the WCW Championship, but under the WWE name, same as the WWE Cruiserweight Championship. But an example from WWE that could be used is the World Heavyweight Championship, because that is a separate World Championship that was created, but it continues the terminology of the WCW Championship. But in TNA, the TNA World title does not continue the terminology of the NWA World Championship, because they are two different World Championships.~SRX~ 20:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Christian

He was never TNA World Champion, even unofficially. The first ever TNA World Champion was Kurt Angle at Slammiversary 2007. I understand what this inclusion is trying to do, but it would be better served listing Angle as an unofficial NWA World Champion, then Christian and Angle as unofficial TNA World Champions for a few hours each. Dr Rgne (talk) 10:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, ya see, the NWA stripped Christian of the title before Sacrifice last year. So it's up in the air as to how you want to interpret that title reign that lasted oh probably about 10-12 hours? The consensus would be that he was unofficially the first TNA World Champion with Angle being unofficially second. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

TNA said the match was determine the first ever TNA World Heavyweight champion, and the match was won by Kurt Angle - not Christian Cage - so it's pretty obvious. Kurt Angle was the first TNA World Heavyweight champion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.213.9 (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No. That match wasn't to determine the first champion. The match to determine first TNA champion was at Slammiversary '07. Dooooiiii. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk • contribs) 03:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My point exactly. The match to determine the first ever TNA World Champion took place at Slammiversary 2007. So how could anybody BEFORE the FIRST EVER champion be listed? TNA said that Cage waa still the NWA World Champion at Sacrifice, and Angle won the NWA World Title there. Angle was stripped of the NWA World Title at the next Impact!. But the NWA refuse to acknowledge Angle's NWA World Title win. If anything the unofficial Angle win at Sacrifice should be on the NWA World Title page, not the TNA World Title page, as the TNA World Title hadn't even been officially declared in existence until the next Impact!. Dr Rgne (talk) 08:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

To be clear I saw the iMPACT! after Sacrifice and I saw it again of youtube on TNA wrestling's youtube account and the reason the title was at Slammiversary was because of the dispute at Sacrifice. Cornette said that the match was to crown the first ever undisputed champion. Not the first ever champion, the first undisputed. So Angle winning at Slammiversary means he is the first undisputed TNA world heavyweight champion not that he is the first ever champion. That is why TNA recognizes him as the first champion. So Cage's reign does count. Also TNA counts anyone that won the NWA title as a former TNA World Heavyweight Champion.--WillC (talk) 10:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That is going around in circles though. At Slammiversary 2007, Angle was said to have become the first ever pure TNA World Champion, but Cage was said to be wanting to win his third World Title. Also Ron Killings often referred to himself as a 2-time former TNA World Title. My problem is with the May 13 Cage as first TNA World Champion thing in the article. Either Kurt Angle at Slammiversary is the first ever TNA World Champion, or maybe the article should be changed to state that Ken Shamrock was the first ever TNA World Champion, and Angle's May 13 - May 14 2007 reign is the only unofficial TNA World Title reign? Dr Rgne (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching this conversation long enough. Let me first clarify a number of things before I get into it.

• First and foremost, the TNA World Heavyweight Championship and the NWA World Heavyweight Championship are not related in anyway other than the minor fact that the NWA title was at one point defended in TNA, therefore, former NWA Champions crowned during the title's time in TNA will not be recognized as also being former TNA Champions on Wikipedia.
• Secondly, the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship hours before Sacrifice, not right after the event, not the day after, not two days, but hours before the event, and as a result, the championship match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title.
• Finally, the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion as recognized by the promotion is indeed Kurt Angle. This article does not dispute that. However, the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion by omission is Christian Cage.

Now that we got that out of the way, let me elaborate a little more on the three points just mentioned.

• There is no question that TNA considers former NWA Champions in TNA to also be former TNA World Heavyweight Champions, and that is their prerogative. Unfortunately they made that decision a little too late. You see, when Angle won the TNA World Heavyweight Championship at Slammiversary TNA promptly chose to consider Kurt Angle as being the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion. It was only recently (that being a few months ago) that TNA began considering former NWA Champions crowned during that title's time in TNA also former TNA World Heavyweight Champions, and with that, two fatal errors were committed. The first being (as stated above) that the TNA and NWA World Heavyweight Championships are two separate titles, are in no way related, and neither can hold claim to the other's history because of it. The other being that what TNA did is revisionism, and while it is true that revisionism is no stranger to the professional wrestling industry, it is nonetheless against our project's policy to ignore events as they accurately happened and follow retroactive continuity instead. With this established, this article cannot conform to TNA's revised history. However, it is not against policy to make note of TNA's changes, which is why TNA's current view on the title's history is noted in the article.
• The NWA did in fact strip Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship on the morning of May 13, hours before Sacrifice aired. There was no "rights" to the title that TNA had until midnight when the NWA made their announcement as others who keep bringing up this same old subject to this talk page time and time again tend to believe and use as an argument. The fact is that the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship before Sacrifice could take place and therefore, regardless of the physical belt Cage carried to the ring and regardless of what Jeremy Borash announced him as, the match was not for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.
• With that said, the question is, what title was defended at Sacrifice? The answer to this is simple, but to understand it you have to do a really difficult thing that intelligent people would do (other than reading this entire post word for word). That being surpassing the casual fan's ability to only remember recent months of history, and going way further back. I'm talking about May 13, 2007 through June 17, 2007. You see, at Sacrifice, other than Borash's ring announcing, the entire match made absolutely no mention of Christian being the NWA World Heavyweight Champion but instead referred to him as "the heavyweight champion of the world." When the event concluded after a controversial finish and Kurt Angle was named the victor, on that week's Impact Angle not only referred to himself (and was referred to) as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion but also held the belt representing that title. However on that same day, Jim Cornette stripped Angle of the title due to the controversial end of the match that resulted in Cage and Sting holding claim to the title, and declared that an (his actual words) "undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion" would be crowned at Slammiversary. Now in this case, "undisputed" isn't an actual name that was given to the title like in the case of the WWE Undisputed Championship, but rather implied that without any controversy or dispute a TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. Eventually, it would soon be shown that TNA did not end up considering Angle's controversial match at Sacrifice one for the TNA title and it was only after Slammiversary that TNA referred to Angle as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion without argument. So the simple answer to the question, and it may be hard to understand at first, is that that the title that was defended at Sacrifice, the title that Angle controversially won, the title that Angle gloated about holding on the Impact after, was unofficially the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Why? Because the same title that was defended after the NWA title was taken away, the same title that gave Angle claim to being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion after the match at Sacrifice, the same title Cornette stripped and led him to make the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary, eventually and officially became the official TNA World Heavyweight Championship.

In conclusion, the fact of the matter is this. Due to the NWA stripping Cage of the NWA title, by omission Christian Cage is unofficially the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. However, Kurt Angle is the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 05:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

• How long did it take you to write that? Okay with that said I agree that Cage is the first unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion and Angle is the official First TNA World Heavyweight Champion. So technically Cage's reign counts as being the first but we should only recognize it as the first Unofficial.WillC (talk) 06:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... 20 minutes... Anyway, you are exactly right. Like I said, revisionism is no stranger to the industry. It occurs constantly and the best known example of this is Ric Flair's actual number of world title reigns. Like with every Championship article on Wikipedia the project chooses to recognize the actual events that occured but also note the current version of history that is viewed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 06:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I have nothing left to say on this matter. I know you and me have agreed on this but not sure about the rest.--WillC (talk) 07:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no need to be insulting, and claim that only "intelligent people" understand your take on this. And that's all it is. Your take. By the same token we could claim that Cage had the NWA belt, was announced as NWA Champion, Angle won the NWA belt, Angle was announced as new NWA Champion with NWA belt. The next day Angle has the TNA belt, and is stripped of that. In other words Angle held 2 different titles in a 24-hour period. Also note the handling of Team 3D's Tag title reign. They won the NWA Tag titles at Lockdown. After being stripped of the NWA belts they were merely awarded the TNA belts. The fact that TNA regards (and said so at the time) this as a single reign is troublesome enough. But since Team 3D were only recognised as TNA Tag Champions(specifically by name) at the Impact! after Sacrifice shows they were only officially TNA Tag Team Champions after that event. Even the TNA Tag Team Title page shows their reign beginning on May 14, not on May 13. You state that TNA revisionism has no place here, but then use it for your argument. TNA considered Cage to be NWA Champion, and Angle to have won the NWA Championship at Sacrifice. It was only after the NWA/TNA split became final(and somewhat acrimonious) that they decided to change directions and call the belts TNA belts, and claim that they were so all along. Angle came out with the TNA belt at the Impact! immediately after Sacrifice, but in the eyes of TNA it was the same thing as the NWA belt he'd won the previous night. Likewise Team 3D's new TNA belts were considered to represent the same thing they'd defended against Rick Steiner/Road Warrior Animal, AND ALSO to represent the same thing they'd won from LAX the month before! In other words AFTER MAy 13 EVERY NWA belt holder, past and present, was rewritten to have been TNA belt holders. Focusing on one detail(Angle had the TNA belt and was called TNA Champion on the May 14/17 Impact!) is missing the bigger picture. Basically, while the NWA/TNA partnership suited TNA they called the belts "NWA". After the split, they stated that the TNA belts had been TNA belts all along. That's a different thing from specifically creating a new belt hours before Sacrifice. At Slammiversary 2007 there were multiple references to Christian Cage wanting to win his THIRD World Title in TNA. Angle was declared the first PURE TNA Champion in June 2007, meaning he was the first to win the TNA belt without any NWA affiliation. By your reasoning there were already 2 previous pure TNA reigns before that, Cage, and Angle himself. But no Angle was the first PURE TNA Champion. I understand why people write the first 2 (unofficial) reigns of the TNA World Title were Cage and Angle, but that's really one way of looking at it. TNA considered those to be TNA title reigns, but then they considered ALL World Title reigns in TNA to be TNA World Title reigns(retroactively) and Cage's to merely be the last few hours of a reign that had begun when he defeated Sting and Abyss months before. So you're using TNA's own revisionism as the reason to not accept TNA revisionism? They only called Angle "TNA Champion" the next night because they had finished with the NWA, but already in their minds the NWA and TNA belts were the same things. At Slammiversary Angle became the first PURE TNA Champion, meaning the first TNA Champion post-any NWA connection. But ALL World Champions in TNA are were considered to be former TNA World Champions IMMEDIATELY after the NWA/TNA split. I hope you're not too intelligent to understand this. Angle was called TNA World Champion only after TNA realised that all connections with the NWA had been severed, and it was in their best interests to claim all former champions(and the current champion) as TNA Champion. But the officially-created TNA belt was not won until Slammiversary. Get it? Got it? Good! Dr Rgne (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I seem to have ranted there and gotten too personal. I apologise. The point I should have made more clearly is that on May 13 2007 the TNA World Title DID NOT EXIST. As far as TNA was concerned at the time Christian Cage was th NWA World Champion, Team 3D were the NWA Tag Champions. Yes I know, the NWA no longer recognised them as such, but TNA DID NOT recognise them as "TNA" Champions either. Angle won the 3-man match and in TNA's eyes was "NWA" World Champion, and was announced as such. The next day(May 14) TNA realised that the NWA/TNA split meant their title histories were non-existent, so they decided(as noted above) to rewrite their own history and claim ALL Champions, past and (then-)present as "TNA" Champions. Thus Angle became TNA World Champion, Team 3D became TNA Tag Champions, Jeff Jarrett became a former 6-time TNA World Champion etc. In TNA's eyes this was merely a continuation of what (had now been rewritten to have) been TNA belts all along. So yes, TNA said that Angle beat Cage for the "TNA" belt at Sacrifice. But then they also said Cage had won the TNA belt at Final Resolution, and that his victory over Jarrett in February 2006 was for the TNA belt as well! Ron Killings also mentioned himself as being a 2-time former TNA World Champion etc. But at Slammiversary 2007, Angle was said to have become the first person to win the PURE TNA World Title(meaning the first person to win a World Title in TNA without any NWA affiliation). Although the NWA do not recognise Angle's Sacrifice victory as an NWA Title win(as they had already stripped Cage of the belt) TNA regard that as having taken place in what was still the NWA/TNA era.

What we are left with then is that TNA did not even mention such a thing as a "TNA World Title" until the May 14/17 Impact! At the time of the Sacrifice the very concept of a TNA World Title did not yet exist! Therefore Cage could not possibly have been TNA World Champion any more than he could have in 2006! Althogh Angle could have been the first (unofficial) TNA World Champion, though only on May 14... Dr Rgne (talk) 10:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the article and listd Angle as first (unofficial) TNA World Champion as of May 14. Remember nobody ever used the phrase(or even mentioned the such a concept as a) "TNA World Championship) until May 14 2007. As far as TNA were concerned on MAy 13 2007, Cage was the NWA Champion, and Angle won the NWA Championship. Only the next day did they mention a "TNA World Title", and claimed that Anglew had beaten TNA World Champion Cage for the TNA World Championship. But then they also said that CAGe had been TNA World Champion since Final Resolution. By the same token, if Rick Steiner/Road Warrior Animal had beaten Team 3D at Sacrifice, they wouldn't have won the NWA Tag Titles, but they would only have become TNA Tag Champions as of May 14. So Cage was never TNA World Champion(not as this time of writing anyway, he may win the belt in the future)and Angle was never NWA World Champion... Dr Rgne (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel like reading all of this, but Angle was never announced as NWA World Heavyweight Champion. He was announced as "new Heavyweight Champion of the World". Don't believe me? I watched it live, go buy the DVD, go find it on the internet. The only mention of the NWA Heavyweight Title at Sacrifice was by Jeremy Borash during in-ring introduction of Christian Cage, and that by the looks of it was a mistake on his part. No other time was NWA mentioned during that broadcast. They simply referred to the previously NWA Championships as World Heavyweight Championship and World Tag Team Championship. There's no where this arguing can go really. I'm right, you're wrong. I win, you lose. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

1)Christian was at no point prior to May 14 EVER announced as "TNA World Champion" 2)Christian came out (May 13) with the NWA belt. It was mentioned that this was the same reign that had begun at Final resolution 2007. 3)When Angle won he was presented with the NWA belt. 4)Angle was at no point at Sacrifice ever referred to as "TNA World Champion" 5)At no point during Sacrifice was a "TNA World Title" ever mentioned. 6)The Tag team situation is the same with Team 3D 7)Only after the NWA split became official (May 14) did TNA retroactively claim TNA-era Champions as having been "TNA" Champions, thus they claimed AT A LATER DATE that Christian had been TNA Champion. But they said that he was a 2-time (Feb-June 2006, and Jan-May 2007) champion! 8)They also claimed that everyone from Shamrock on was TNA World Champion too though. 9)Someone above stated that wikipedia does NOT use revisionist/retroactive continuity. 10)How can you say I'm wrong if you never even read what I said?!

So to clarify: i)There was NO SUCH THING as a "TNA World Title" before May 14. ii) TNA did LATER say that Christian was TNA World Champion at Sacrifice, but then they also said he'd been TNA World Champion since Final resolution.

You are in fact wrong. Totally wrong. Dr Rgne (talk) 11:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright then Dr. Moron, where did I ever say that they claimed them to be TNA World Tag and Heavyweight Champions at Sacrifice 07? Oh that's right shit for brains, I didn't. I said, that they called them generically branded World Heavyweight and World Tag Team Champions and referred to the titles as such. If those titles were not NWA titles which if I am mistaken you just agreed with me on, then what titles are they? Do you want to go make a page for the unbranded TNA Titles from Sacrifice 07 now? Sounds like you do. You're a fucking moron. Your edits won't hold up, and you babble on and write books about useless shit throughout this talk page. So you sir, for the moron that you are, are indeed totally wrong. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 18:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess you've shown the full extent of your position, calling me "moron", "shit for brains" etc, while never once giving a proper response to any of my comments, questions or points. I won't stoop to your level of personal insults, but will only ask you this(which I do hope you are capable of fully grasping)...

IF the TNA World Title was not created until May 14 2007, how exactly could anybody be TNA World Champion BEFORE May 14 2007?

For the millionth time, TNA still recognised Christian as NWA Champion at Sacrifice. Yes, yes, I know, the NWA had already stripped Christian of the NWA belt, but TNA had not yet even acknowledged the existence of a TNA World Title. Read what the poster some posts back wrote about wikipedia's policy on retconning. You can NOT go back and say "Oh, well Christian was the TNA World Champion all along!"

So what was Christian? He wasn't NWA Champion, because NWA had stripped him. He wasn't TNA Champion because that belt DID NOT EXIST yet at the time. The best way to look at it is that when NWA stripped Christian he became the man who would later (the next day) be declared the first TNA Champion. By winning the 3-way Angle won Christian's right/spot/whatever to be declared the first ever TNA Champion THE NEXT DAY. Yes, there was a belt involved on May 13, the NWA belt !! And Jeremy Borash (and others) made reference to the "NWA" Championship, NOT the "TNA" Championship.

You are only looking at this from one point, that the NWA belt had been stripped. You are completely(deliberately it seems) ignoring the very real fact that the TNA belt was only created the next day, ie. AFTER the Cage-Angle-Sting match was over and done with. You say Angle couldn't win the NWA belt there because that belt wasn't in TNA at the time of the match. Fine. I agree with you. But the TNA belt also wasn't involved with TNA at the time of the match, having not yet even been created. I hope you understand this now, and if/when you post replies do not again use foul language and personal insults. Dr Rgne (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Look the point we are trying to make here is this. When the NWA stripped Cage of the NWA title before Sacrifice, TNA no longer had any control over the NWA title. So regardless of what TNA wants to consider, the match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title. We have established that the TNA title was created the Impact after Sacrifice and commissioned at Slammiversary. However due to Christian being stripped of the title before Sacrifice and the match not being for the NWA title, we will consider Christian as the unofficial first TNA Champion. You think that TNA is the only one here being singled out? We do this for every promotion's Championship history. We recognize official and unofficial reigns. We would consider Kurt Angle's victory an unofficial NWA title victory just as well if the NWA title were still in control of TNA during that match, even if the NWA refused to recognize it. Unfortunately in this case and for yours, TNA had no control over the NWA title at Sacrifice and regardless of what they claimed, they have no say over any portion of the NWA title's history. And just for the record, the only mention of the NWA title for the main event at Sacrifice was indeed Borash's introduction. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 07:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly true that the match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA Title. However, it was mentioned above that wikipedia does not use retroactive continuity, but goes by what happened at the time. What happened at the time was that TNA still fully believed(as has been stated over and over again) that they(TNA) had full control of the NWA Title belts until midnight (the end of May 13 2007). That they did not is not really relevant. They (TNA) believed that Cage was still the legitimate NWA Champion. They already had the TNA belt, yet Cage came out with the NWA belt. The match had been promoted for weeks beforehand as being for the NWA Title, and it was announced as being for the NWA Title. Only a few people knew about the title stripping, and most people watching fully believed (were led to believe by TNA) that this was for the NWA Title. Angle (controversially) won the match and was given the same NWA belt that Cage had won from Abyss 4 months earlier, the same NWA championship that was announced at the start of the match. The TNA website at the time listed this as an NWA Title victory for Angle. Yes, yes, it was not for the NWA belt as Cage had been stripped before the match. But the point is this: In TNA's eyes it WAS a legitimate, sanctioned NWA Title match, as they felt they had full control of the NWA title until midnight.

So much has been made of the fact that the NWA and TNA World Titles are 2 different belts with 2 different lineages, yet people choose to ignore that as far as TNA was concerned the Sacrifice match was part of the NWA Title lineage. Not the TNA Title lineage. Again, yes Cage had already been stripped of the NWA Title, but TNA made it perfectly clear that they considered that match to be a legitimately sanctioned NWA World Title match.

As of midnight one crucial thing happened...TNA felt that it was only of this moment that they lost control of the NWA titles. Not at all a minor point as only now did the TNA World Title(and TNA Tag Titles) come in existence. Before May 14 2007, there was never any such thing as a "TNA World Title". Giving World Title recognition (official or unofficial) before such a belt even existed would appear to go completely against wikipedia policy. As of May 14 2007 TNA awarded the TNA World Title and TNA Tag Titles to the people they believed to have been the last NWA Champions in TNA...Kurt Angle and Team 3D. Yes, at 23:59 on May 13 2007 TNA fully believed that Kurt Angle was the legitimate NWA World Heavyweight Champion, NOT the TNA Heavyweight Champion(which has been pointed out repeetedly) is a completely different belt.

Angle came out on the May 14 Impact! with the TNA belt and was identified as TNA Champion. It was also stated that he had won the title at Sacrifice. So that means Cage was TNA Champion at Sacrifice right? Well, no. Not at all. You see, on the same show Team 3D appeared carrying the TNA Tag Team Titles, and it was made clear that these were the same titles they had won from LAX at Lockdown the month before. Well, using certain people's logic, that MUST mean that LAX were defending the TNA Tag team Titles at Lockdown. This is the whole "retcon" thing mentioned above.

At Slammiversary Angle won the TNA World Title, and was declared to be the "first pure TNA World Champion". In other words Angle was , in TNA's eyes at least, the first person to win a match for the TNA World Title, rather than the NWA World Title in TNA. Because this was the first match that had ever been sanctioned for the TNA Title. In other words, it was made perfectly and unambiguously clear that the match at Sacrifice was NOT for the TNA Title, the match at Slammiversary was the first ever time wrestlers were "competing" in a match for the TNA World Title.

You see, to sum up, it has been repeatedly stated that you can't go back and rewrite the title history. You can't say Ken Shamrock was the first ever TNA Champion. Why? Because the TNA Title did not exist. What matters is that at that time (June 2002) there was not TNA Title. Likewise, it doesn't matter what is said today, what was said 6 months ago, or even what was said about Angle winning the "TNA Title" on May 14 2007. All that matters is what was TNA's official position on May 13 2007? Anything else is retconning. And on May 13 2007, TNA were insisting (quite forcefully) that they had full control of the NWA Title until midnight. They already had a physical TNA belt, yet instead sent Cage out with the NWA belt. It had been announced for weeks that the match would be for the NWA World Title, and at no point on May 13 2007 did they make any attempt to correct this. Cage came out with the NWA belt, and the match was announced as being for the NWA Title. When Angle won hew was presented with the NWA belt. And TNA insisted he was the legitimate NWA World Champion (even stating as much on their website) because (they believed) "TNA has full control of the NWA World Title until midnight".

Any attempt to claim Cage as first (official or unofficial) TNA World Champion as of May 13 2007 is rewriting history. It is akin to Star Trek "fan fiction", and has no place in any sort of valid encyclopedia. The main questions are:

1)When was the first time a "TNA" World Title was specifically and unambiguously mentioned? (A: May 14 2007)

2)Who was the first person ever positively identified as "TNA World Champion" (A: Kurt Angle)

3)At the time of Sacrifice 2007 what was TNA's official position(incorrect as it may have been) concerning Cage and Cage's title? (A: Cage was still NWA World Champion, and was defending the NWA Title as TNA "had until midnight")

4)Can somebody hold a title that does not even officially exist? (A: No. Of course not)

5)Have wrestling promotions ever promoted titles they do not have the right to sanction matches for before? (A: Yes)

6)What is the official positions on these titles (A: They are not considered official title matches of either promotion)

Dr Rgne (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Look the point we are trying to make here is this. When the NWA stripped Cage of the NWA title before Sacrifice, TNA no longer had any control over the NWA title. So regardless of what TNA wants to consider, the match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title. We have established that the TNA title was created the Impact after Sacrifice and commissioned at Slammiversary. However due to Christian being stripped of the title before Sacrifice and the match not being for the NWA title, we will consider Christian as the unofficial first TNA Champion. You think that TNA is the only one here being singled out? We do this for every promotion's Championship history. We recognize official and unofficial reigns. We would consider Kurt Angle's victory an unofficial NWA title victory just as well if the NWA title were still in control of TNA during that match, even if the NWA refused to recognize it. Unfortunately in this case and for yours, TNA had no control over the NWA title at Sacrifice and regardless of what they claimed, they have no say over any portion of the NWA title's history. And just for the record, the only mention of the NWA title for the main event at Sacrifice was indeed Borash's introduction. --UnquestionableTruth-- 07:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

-- TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 03:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I fully understand what you mean but my point is this. There are 2 DIFFERENT concepts:

1)The World Champion as recognized by TNA Wrestling.

2)The TNA World Champion.

Right now 1) and 2) are the same thing. But that was only the case from May 14 2007 at the earliest (and many, including people in TNA would say only from Slammiversary 2007). But obviously this was not always so.

Also note that the "TNA World Title" is a real World Title with a real lineage, and a real definite starting point. It is not some abstract concept that can be interpreted/redefined to fit someone's whim or fancy.

Yes, Cage was the Champion in TNA (#1) after the NWA had stripped him of the NWA World Title. But he was not the TNA World Title, officially or unofficially(#2), as those are two totally different concepts, and your failure(or maybe unwillingness) to accept this is the reason for this needlessly going on on and.

Look, who is the "RAW World Champion" right now? You see there is nobody, as there is no such thing. Triple-H is the (WWE) World Champion on RAW, but he is not the RAW World Champion, as those are 2 different concepts. It used to be the World Champion(Big Gold Belt) was the RAW Champion.

So, just because Christian Cage was the World Champion in TNA after he had been stripped of the NWA World Title, and he was defeated by Kurt Angle, who WENT ON TO BE recognized as the first TNA World Champion, does NOT in any way shape or form mean that Cage was TNA World Champion, official or unofficial. Please do not just cut and paste the quote you used above, as while it is a "clean and easy" answer it is just plain wrong. Dr Rgne (talk) 07:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand the point you're trying to make, but don't understand why you're trying to make it. We came to the conclusion to include Christian as the first reign on the table(and marked as unofficial, because it is unofficial) because logically, if the NWA title was not the title at Sacrifice '07(and it wasn't, NWA stripped 3D and Cage and re-took control of their titles that day), then it can only be recognized in one way..and that is unofficially, keyword there, the first reign of the TNA World Title. Understand, we have marked these carefully. We note why we mark Christian as first unofficial Champion, and that is because the NWA stripped him. TNA might not have called this title at the event the TNA World Title, but we have to assume that it is...because TNA had no control of the NWA title, and Cage and 3D were stripped of their championships about 8-9 hours before the event started. And for the first time, the next night, Angle and 3D came out with the new championship belts which everyone referred to as the TNA World Heavyweight and TNA World Tag Team Championships. Believe me, we get the point, you don't buy that Cage should be noted as unofficially the first champion, but FACTS are facts. Cage couldn't have been NWA Champion at this event because he was stripped, and it forced TNA to not use the NWA name at all(except for Borash, who of course as I said before may have made a mistake) during this event. I urge you to watch this event if this bothers you so much, because the only time that they ever said NWA on that program was during Cage's in-ring introduction for the main event by Jeremy Borash.

I'll spell it out a bit more clearly.

TNA promotes event going in with matches for NWA World Heavyweight and Tag Team Titles. Christian Cage and Team 3D hold these NWA branded championships respectfully.

At some point around 11am - 12pm EST on May 13th, 2007; The NWA releases a video with Robert Trobich announcing the formal stripping of Christian Cage and Team 3D of their championships, along with a load of kayfabe about the titles being disgraced, but we won't get into that.

So now, Cage and Team 3D simply cannot be NWA champions going in. So logically..what does TNA do? They decide not to use NWA or TNA in the formerly NWA championship names at all for this event.

Christian Cage and Team 3D now, logically are your first TNA World Heavyweight and TNA World Tag Team Champions by default. Why? Because TNA had no control whatsoever of the NWA titles for this event. TNA cannot claim Cage as the NWA Champion during this event and surely cannot claim Angle as an NWA champion either. Why? Because TNA had no control whatsoever of the NWA titles for this event. The NWA stripped them of their titles before the event even started.

The only use of NWA property in this show were the title belts, but the only time you actually hear the letters...N...W...and A is during Cage's in-ring intro. And like I said...this probably was a mistake. They'd played it safe all night and never at all used the NWA name in reference to those titles.

Thus..we note on this page that unofficially(because TNA does not recognize it, regardless of time..Cage's NWA title reign both unofficially and officially ended on the same date but many hours apart) Christian Cage is the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Cage wasn't NWA Champion that night, hell, he wasn't TNA Champion either, but what title did he hold? That's the question that is simply answered with a note that Christian could have only been regarded as the unofficially first TNA World Champion. I rest my case. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 14:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, here are the archives, read through them and know why users here came to the consensus that they did. [1]

[2] This is why some of us aren't really open to arguing this again, because we already concluded how things like Cage's "nothing" reign should be noted and such. We ask you to read these archives for better understanding of why we disagree with your choice of history in contrast to how this page was originally displayed. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 14:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, but my main problem is why Cage's "World Title" at Sacrifice is automatically assumed to be the TNA World Title(or a previous version of it)? The TNA Title did not exist before May 14 2007. Cage had been stripped of the NWA Title earlier that day, but TNA made no reference to his World Title at sacrifice being a new championship, a new reign, a new anything. He had the Domed Globe belt, the match had been heavily promoted as an NWA Title match, Borash said "NWA" etc. Angle won the match(controversially) and got the Domed Globe belt. The next day Angle was positively identified as the TNA Champion. They also said that he had won the belt from Cage the day before, but then they claimed that the NWA belt in TNA was the TNA Title all along!

The nearest comparison to this appears to be the IC belt and Ted DiBiase. DiBiase arrived in the WWWF as the North American Champion of a different promotion. For a while the WWWF had a deal where they could have DiBiase defend the North American belt in the WWWF. Soon however the other promotion wanted their belt, and title control back, so stripped DiBiase. However the WWWF continued to book DiBiase as North American champion. They even had Pat Patterson win the belt. Then the stupidity of the situation became apparent, and so they named Patterson as the first IC Champion(and invented a BS story about a tournament in Rio). So yes DiBiase was in a sense part of the IC lineage, and had held the belt that was the forerunner to the IC Title. But he is not, and never has been, recognized as an IC Champion, either official or unofficial.

Here's basically what happened on May 13 2007...Cage was supposed to defend the NWA belt at Sacrifice. The NWA stripped Cage of the title. TNA did not at any point award Cage a new title, mention anything about a new title, or even acknowledge the existence of a new title. Cage came out with the NWA belt, was announced as NWA World Champion etc. Except he wasn't NWA World Champion. It was in effect a non-sanctioned match for a belt they had no control over. Angle won the Fake NWA World Title(controversially). Angle is no stranger to Fake belts won from stripped ex-champions. The next day Angle was recogized as the first TNA World Champion. But then they started claiming that Angle had won the belt from Cage, and the NWA in TNA belt was the TNA belt all along!

So it wasn't for the TNA World Title, officially or unofficially. Going back and saying Angle was TNA World Champion on May 14, Angle won the belt from Cage, Cage was no longer NWA Champion...therefore Cage was TNA Champion is the texbook example of the aforementioned retroactive continuity. Cage should not be listed as even an unofficial TNA champion. A note mentioning Sacrifice and that match should be there, but Cage has no direct connection to the TNA World Title. Dr Rgne (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to say this again: We know that the TNA World Title didn't exist until May 14th, that's why we mark the Cage reign on May 13th as UNOFFICIAL, because TNA doesn't recognize it. I don't know how many times that has to be said for you to stop. Angle "won" the title from Cage, and the next night he was for a brief moment walking around as TNA World Heavyweight Champion. There's your direct connection from Cage to the TNA World Title. I don't know how much more clearer I can get with this but I'm not going to try. Ya know, Chewbacca is an 8 foot tall Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor with a bunch of 2 foot tall Ewoks. Now think about this: Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. It does not...make...SENSE. I rest...my case. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 16:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow what a headache. I can't believe I read all this. I believe it all to be like this though:

Christian Cage was the NWA World Heavyweight Champion on May 13, 2007 at Sacrifice. The NWA drops their sanctioning, but Kurt Angle still wins the NWA World Heavyweight Title from Christian. TNA recognizes the title change, and Kurt even talks about his NWA Title win backstage and glorifies himself as now being among the elites of former NWA World Champions (you can see that video on TNA Mobile). The NWA however DOES NOT recognize this title change because they did not sanction the match and they had withdrawed with TNA. This is why some of Ric Flair's NWA Title reigns go unrecognized in the early days when he had a couple title loses and wins in Puerto Rico, among other places, and that's because the NWA DID NOT sanction those title matches, just like they DID NOT sanction the Sacrifice main event title match. Yet here at Wikipedia we still recognize those Flair reigns under the unofficial light? Why not Kurt Angle then? This DOES NOT make any sense to me. It clearly was not a TNA World Heavyweight Title win because that belt DID NOT exist at all yet. They were all unofficial NWA Title matches at Sacrifice 2007. 70.68.56.48 (talk) 19:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not Kurt Angle then? Because there is one major flaw in your Ric Flair argument. In all those times Flair lost the NWA World Heavyweight Championship in Caribbean in 1983, the NWA title was under the NWA's control. It's not that the NWA didn't sanction the matches or that they refused to recognize the reigns, it’s just that they were never mentioned in the US and neither confirm or denied the matches had taken place. There was also severe lack of information on those matches available at the time and still to this day. However, in this case with Sacrifice, the facts are clear. Not only did the NWA utterly refused to recognize the supposed Angle reign, but TNA itself also didn't recognize it as an NWA title match. Nowhere else, other than Borash's slip, was the NWA's name mentioned. Of course Cage did carry the NWA belt with him. Unfortunately for your argument, a belt is nothing more than a physical object that serves as a representation of a specified title. Therefore, the match was for the Heavyweight Championship of the World represented by the NWA belt. So, Here you have both NWA and TNA not specifying the match as being one for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, but rather for the Heavyweight Championship of the world. Because of this, by omission, Cage is listed here as the World Heavyweight Champion in TNA before Angle, who is considered here the First official TNA World Heavyweight Champion.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 06:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to revert the article again. I am however going to state for the last time, that it is irrelevant what time Cage was stripped, whether or not a guy carrying a belt saying "NWA" on it and being announced as "NWA Champion" can mean something else to some people etc. The one simple fact is this...

The TNA World Title was only created on May 14 2007. Therefore it logically follows that nobody can be a TNA World Champion, officially or unofficially before that belt even existed.

Anyrhing else is merelt arguing over what really happened on May 13 2007 at Sacrifice. Was Cage NWA Champion? No, he had been stripped of the title earlier that day. Was Cage(even unofficially) the TNA World Champion? No, because that belt didn't even exist yet. Cage was the World Champion in TNA but he was not the TNA World Champion'. So what belt was on the line st Sacrifice? Well, the best thing(though still far from perfect) may be to call it the Fake NWA World Title. Then the last holder of that belt(Angle) became the first TNA World Champion when the TNA World Title was created the following day. A note detailing Cage's NWA reign, and the stupidity of May 13 2007 should obviously be added to the article, but listing Cage as TNA World Champion (even unofficially) still seems wrong. Dr Rgne (talk) 09:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The first TNA World Heavyweight Champion was Ken Shamrock on June 19 2002. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.145.136 (talk) 12:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Official TNA Titles lineage

http://www.tnawrestling.com/content/view/218/84/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.168.79 (talk) 02:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

That makes it look as though Cage was still World Champion going into the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary 2007. Also, remember that WCW used to refer to people like Harley Race and Ricky "The Steamboat" Dragon as former WCW World Champions. This lineiage also doesn't make mention of what exactly happened at Sacrifice on May 13 2007. Dr Rgne (talk) 09:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)