Talk:Bigfoot

Picture template

I have replaced the template with just a captioned image because the template presents uncorrectable NPOV problems. In a nutshell, the template denotes Bigfoot, without qualification, as a creature. In addition to saying it outright, it also denotes it as having a habitat. The mainstream view is that it is not a creature, but rather a myth or rumor, which clearly do not have 'habitats'. Further, the template titles the image "bigfoot", while the mainstream view is that there is no such thing and that there can therefore be no image of it. Opening the article with a prominent unqualified fringe view is unacceptable. Perhaps a more appropriate template could be chosen, but as I said, for now I have simply placed the template with a captioned image. Locke9k (talk) 20:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not even sure why that template exists in the first place. DreamGuy (talk) 21:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The template may have some validity to it although I'm not sure yet whether or not it is worth having. I've expressed my concerns for some fields on Template talk:Infobox paranormal creature —Fiziker ^t c 21:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added my concerns there. The problem is that template is also sometimes used in places where its probably ok, so for now it seems like all we can do is avoid using it in articles where it presents NPOV problems. Locke9k (talk) 21:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The mainstream view is that Bigfoot is not a creature, then again the article is about Bigfoot. We should include the possibility of it being real. Significant published viewpoints need to be made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular views. This was indeed a popular film of what may be a real Bigfoot and is perfect for the article. It doesn't violate any copyright infringement laws. If someone denotes the picture as real or fake it will be a violation of WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV.--Simpsoncan (talk) 19:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I adjusted the wording because alleged is asserted to be true or exist. Possible seems to be more fitting because it is being of something that may or may not be true--Simpsoncan (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The use of alleged is better than possible. Anything can be possible, so this doesn't really provide information. The important thing is that some believers in Bigfoot say that this is a Bigfoot. Possible does not convey this. —Fiziker ^t c 19:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

"Possible" also is an opinion. Most people says it's not possible to be a photo of Bigfoot. Alleged is factual. DreamGuy (talk) 13:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe so I'll change it back.--Simpsoncan (talk) 22:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that hasn't helped much, but that's not the most important point. The current caption --"Frame 352, alleged image of Bigfoot, from the Patterson-Gimlin film" -- gives only one side of the story, favouring the existence of Biggie, naturally. What would happen if I changed the caption to say "Frame 352 of the Patterson-Gimlin film showing Bob Heironimus wearing an ape suit." I can hear the screams from here, and yet it is referenced and illustrates a point made in the article text. Comment? Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's good to show what the classic Bigfoot look is. You can't get much better than the one from Patterson-Gimlin film (there aren't many other Bigfoot pictures that we can us: search on Wikipedia and flicker has some creative commons stuff but not much). I don't think it's necessary to discussion the origins of the film in the caption as it's talked about in both this article and the film's article. Perhaps it should say something more along the lines of how this is the icon picture of Bigfoot rather an alleged or possible photograph. —Fiziker ^t c 02:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The iconic look isn't as important as what the caption says about it. You say a couple of pars earlier that "The important thing is that some believers in Bigfoot say that this is a Bigfoot (and the caption possibly) does not convey this". You're advocating POV. Blatantly. It is no less important that some people believe the image shows Bob Heironimus in an ape suit. If you want to give POV, then it has to give both. I asked a question which you didn't answer -- "What would happen if I changed the caption to say "Frame 352 of the Patterson-Gimlin film showing Bob Heironimus wearing an ape suit."'. Well?Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Now if we can work together to maintain a neutral balance between Fiziker and Kaiwhakahaere we will have the perfect article.--Simpsoncan (talk) 01:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It would be POV if we gave the impression that this is actually a picture of Bigfoot. However, we want a picture that shows what Bigfoot is supposed to be like. It seems like you would prefer to have a drawing of a Bigfoot so it's clear that the picture is in no way real. I think that might work but as is this, I believe, shows the classic Bigfoot look. I believe you are misinterpreting statement (although, it is not all that clear given the direction this discussion has gone in). I was arguing that the word alleged is better than possible because the picture is not about whether or not that is Bigfoot but rather that that is what Bigfoot is supposed to look like. Re your caption: what purpose would that surve in this article? —Fiziker ^t c 01:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What purpose would that caption serve? Being accurate, it would faithfully illustrate referenced info in the text of the article. But. Did you not notice something? I did not advocate using that caption. I gave it as an example of "Heironimus in an ape suit" being no less pertinent or important than "believers in Bigfoot say that this is a Bigfoot. In fact they probably carry equal weight but I think it is enough for the caption to simply say it is a frame from the film. What's wrong with that? Simsoncan was right when he commented "if we can work together to maintain a neutral balance between Fiziker and Kaiwhakahaere we will have the perfect article". To be neutral, the caption either presents both points, or neither. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 03:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What caption do you suggest? —Fiziker ^t c 03:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Check the article. I just made a change. Note the edit summary which says "Make caption neutral, and remove unsourced pov. Note that it is the second par that has a reference. The first par has none". Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 06:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with your edit and have reverted it. If anything, your edit advances a POV, and one contrary to the one you thought the wording you changed was somehow promoting. And your claim about "both points, or neither" isn't really relevant. Saying something was alleged to be Bigfoot doesn't advance either side. Just saying it's a frame of a film doesn't give any context about what the frame is alleged to show. Your edit also removed a mention of cryptozoology and that science doesn't support the claims, which push a POV by omission. The claims are documented in the article. DreamGuy (talk) 13:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

A good caption should clearly state what an image is even if a reader has not read an article (specifically, if someone scans an article and sees a picture, he or she should be able to determine what it is about). This is reflected in WP:CAP where it says that one criterion for a good caption is that it "establishes the picture's relevance to the article." I think the caption could be reworded to make the importance more clear (I'll try to present something when I finish some other work), but to remove the importance is ridiculous. —Fiziker ^t c 16:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally I don't really see any major POV issue with the present caption. "Alleged image of bigfoot" seems to me to capture the status of the image. I think that Fiziker's argument is sound; the caption should establish the relevance of the image in an NPOV way. The one significant improvement I could think of right now would be to change the wording to make the attribution of the claim more clear, so that readers know who is alleging that this is bigfoot. I will see if I can come up with a way to do that. Locke9k (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the new revision, which reads "Frame 352 from the Patterson-Gimlin film, alleged by Roger Patterson and Robert Gimlin to depict Bigfoot," improves the article at all. First, there are more people who allege that this is a Bigfoot than Patterson and Gimlin. The reason why this is important is because it is alleged by many Bigfoot believers, not just the two who captured the image. Second, isn't the caption a bit redundant to refer to the pair twice? —Fiziker ^t c 17:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually the picture in Bigfoot in popular culture is much better. I know that both Bigfoot's believers and critics find it not serious enough. However to the great majority of people in North America it is a much better picture of what Bigfoot really is. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Amateur/fan art is not encyclopedic at all. Those things shouldn't be on any article on this site, ever. The film is the most memorable and famous alleged depiction of the creature, so of course it belongs here. DreamGuy (talk) 14:20, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

As I said, I knew already that the "owners" of this article wouldn't like it. However, I think this person has as much right to draw a picture of Bigfoot as anyone else. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 14:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Without naming the “others” it’s worded to sound as if everyone other than Patterson and Gimlin believe it was a man in a suit. I'll have to change it to make the article comply with the WP:RS and WP:UNDUE/WP:NPOV policy.--Timpicerilo (talk) 19:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Scientific community section

This section presently has major POV issues, and I have tagged it as such. Despite the fact that that mainstream scientific view is that megafauna cryptids such as bigfoot probably do not exist, the majority of this section covers a small fraction of sympathetic fringe perspectives that are sympathetic to the possibility of its existence. The section gives entirely undue weight to these fringe perspectives. Whats worse, some of these perspectives are referenced from cryptozoological and fringe sources! There is no way that fringe sources are reliable sources for documenting the view of the mainstream scientific community. Finally, the fact that the mainstream scientific view is presently relegated to a separate section at the bottom of the page is not idea. The mainstream view should be clear from the beginning and should be incorporated wherever possible throughout the article to lend balance and perspective to fringe claims. I will try to work on this over time, but it may be a big project, so help would be appreciated. Locke9k (talk) 17:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course the problem here is that there isn't much to say on the scientific consensus. The view of the vast majority of scientists can be summed up simply and in a few sentences while the few scientists who do think Bigfoot is real have idiosyncrasies. Therefore the problem with undue weight is inherent in the section as is. One way that this can be addressed is including the arguments that scientists make against Bigfoot but I have found finding those sources hard to come by due to scientists prefering to talk about real science rather than refute pseudoscience. —Fiziker ^t c 17:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The other way is to remove content that gives fringe views undue weight, even if it is verifiable. Locke9k (talk) 17:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

While some might be removed, it is valid to mention that some cases of scientists getting an interest in Bigfoot. For example, what Goodall said is pretty much just rampant speculation—it doesn't really matter to the issue of Bigfoot either way. However, there have been people like Meldrum who are scientists when it comes to other topics and have tried, at least nominally, to bring scientific rigor to their interest in Bigfoot (of course the success of this should be accurately represented). This is a good topic to mention as it has relevance to the issue of Bigfoot. The thing that stand out in my mind is that including such information would also be helpful for people looking for material relating to the demarkation problem. —Fiziker ^t c 17:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I would suport removing Goodall, as that clearly is just there as the result of a desperate grab to try to find someone who sounds reliable to say something positive, even if it's not all the relevant. DreamGuy (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with you in general, but note that it was a hell of a lot worse for many, many, many years. Some work still needs to be done, sure, but if you'd seen it the way it was before... DreamGuy (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

In general the entire article is written from unproven assertions. Back in 2005 this article was a mess but I think it’s on its way to a fairly decent one. If we are to remain as well respected editors it’s important that we must show all the various viewpoints. We need to make sure they are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular or scientific views. Regardless of what we believe we can’t forget that with folklore stories it’s extremely important to let the facts speak for themselves.--Simpsoncan (talk) 20:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

You have said things to the effect of all viewpoints must be present "not just the most popular or scientific views" multiple times. Please note that there is a difference between a polular view and scientific consensus. That difference is the reason why WP:PSCI exists. It is why we can—and should—state what the fringe views are, but we should make it clear that it is opposed to the science. —Fiziker ^t c 21:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:UNDUE for why we don't "show all the various viewpoints" and specifically why we don't give minority views as much weight as "the most popular or scientific views". DreamGuy (talk) 13:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have done some major cleanup on this section. I haven't removed any references or general facts, but I have cut out a lot of the excessive detail in order to keep the same information while reducing the undue weight issue of giving too much space to a fringe view. I'll probably work on it some more later, but hopefully this is a start. Locke9k (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Locke9k has done some major cleanup on this section cutting a lot of excessive detail reducing the undue weight issue. What other suggestions are there for future editing in this section?--Timpicerilo (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Map

Hi there just a small thing, that map seems to show sightings in the US and Canada, not just US. Could someone coreect this if i'm correct. THanks Jambo-numba1 (talk) 17:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I recently uploaded a new map that now shows sightings in all of North America but didn't update the caption. Good catch. —Fiziker ^t c 17:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Subpage

Note that the subpage Talk:Bigfoot/Temp exists. Is it still needed? I had moved it from article space per WP:Subpages. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 01:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It was related to a dispute over POV in the article about when exactly Bigfoot folklore truly started. That dispute is unresolved, but unfortunately someone included that in the content that was placed on an archive of the talk page before anything was actually done about it. I think the page isn't necessary, but the conversation should be restored. DreamGuy (talk) 21:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

new research showing similarities between bigfoot and black bear niche

new scientific research has shown that models of bigfoot and black bear distribution models are indistinguishable. how does this get posted to the wikipedia article? the source is Lozier et al 2009, Journal of Biogeography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihateaphids (talk • contribs) 03:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Here's a link to the abstract... http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122476732/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.137.33.65 (talk) 15:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Undue weight/POV on that same bear sighting

Rewriting the same info with the same sources does not at all have any chance of fixing undue weight problems, as you are still giving weight to the opinions of people who aren't experts to try to slant the debate. What some TV personality says in an off handed manner in an infotainment broadcast in no way represents any sort of pertinent, encyclopedic view on the topic. That whole part needs to be deleted again.

On top of that all, this is the exact same debate we've had on these pages for months: how much to cover a really trivial alleged sighting in this article. The consensus here has been that we already give it enough coverage as it is. Multiple accounts were blocked for edit warring with sockpuppet accounts over it, and I'd hate to think that this dead horse is still getting beaten. DreamGuy (talk) 18:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Below is an excerpt from Theodore Roosevelt’s 1893 book, The Wilderness Hunter. In this excerpt he wrote about this encounter near the Salmon River in Idaho.

Long book extract totally irrelevant to this discussion hidden to save talk page space

Frontiersmen are not, as a rule, apt to be very superstitious. They lead lives too hard and practical, and have too little imagination in things spiritual and supernatural. I have heard but few ghost stories while living on the frontier, and those few were of a perfectly commonplace and conventional type. But I once listened to a goblin-story, which rather impressed me.

A grizzled, weather beaten old mountain hunter, named Bauman who, born and had passed all of his life on the Frontier, told it the story to me. He must have believed what he said, for he could hardly repress a shudder at certain points of the tale; but he was of German ancestry, and in childhood had doubtless been saturated with all kinds of ghost and goblin lore. So that many fearsome superstitions were latent in his mind; besides, he knew well the stories told by the Indian medicine men in their winter camps, of the snow-walkers, and the specters, [spirits, ghosts & apparitions] the formless evil beings that haunt the forest depths, and dog and waylay the lonely wanderer who after nightfall passes through the regions where they lurk. It may be that when overcome by the horror of the fate that befell his friend, and when oppressed by the awful dread of the unknown, he grew to attribute, both at the time and still more in remembrance, weird and elfin traits to what was merely some abnormally wicked and cunning wild beast; but whether this was so or not, no man can say.

When the event occurred, Bauman was still a young man, and was trapping with a partner among the mountains dividing the forks of the Salmon from the head of Wisdom River. Not having had much luck, he and his partner determined to go up into a particularly wild and lonely pass through which ran a small stream said to contain many beavers. The pass had an evil reputation because the year before a solitary hunter who had wandered into it was slain, seemingly by a wild beast, the half eaten remains being afterwards found by some mining prospectors who had passed his camp only the night before.The memory of this event, however, weighted very lightly with the two trappers, who were as adventurous and hardy as others of their kind. They took their two lean mountain ponies to the foot of the pass where they left them in an open beaver meadow, the rocky timber-clad ground being from there onward impracticable for horses. They then struck out on foot through the vast, gloomy forest, and in about four hours reached a little open glade where they concluded to camp, as signs of game were plenty.

There was still an hour or two of daylight left, and after building a brush lean-to and throwing down and opening their packs, they started upstream. The country was very dense and hard to travel through, as there was much down timber, although here and there the somber woodland was broken by small glades of mountain grass. At dusk they again reached camp. The glade in which it was pitched was not many yards wide, the tall, close-set pines and firs rising round it like a wall. On one side was a little stream, beyond which rose the steep mountains slope, covered with the unbroken growth of evergreen forest.They were surprised to find that during their absence something, apparently a bear, had visited camp, and had rummaged about among their things, scattering the contents of their packs, and in sheer wantonness destroying their lean-to. The footprints of the beast were quite plain, but at first they paid no particular heed to them, busying themselves with rebuilding the lean-to, laying out their beds and stores and lighting the fire.While Bauman was making ready supper, it being already dark, his companion began to examine the tracks more closely, and soon took a brand from the fire to follow them up, where the intruder had walked along a game trail after leaving the camp. When the brand flickered out, he returned and took another, repeating his inspection of the footprints very closely. Coming back to the fire, he stood by it a minute or two, peering out into the darkness, and suddenly remarked, “Bauman, that bear has been walking on two legs.”

Bauman laughed at this, but his partner insisted that he was right, and upon again examining the tracks with a torch, they certainly did seem to be made by but two paws or feet. However, it was too dark to make sure. After discussing whether the footprints could possibly be those of a human being, and coming to the conclusion that they could not be, the two men rolled up in their blankets, and went to sleep under the lean-to. At midnight Bauman was awakened by some noise, and sat up in his blankets. As he did so his nostrils were struck by a strong, wild-beast odor, and he caught the loom of a great body in the darkness at the mouth of the lean-to. Grasping his rifle, he fired at the vague, threatening shadow, but must have missed, for immediately afterwards he heard the smashing of the under wood as the thing, whatever it was, rushed off into the impenetrable blackness of the forest and the night.

After this the two men slept but little, sitting up by the rekindled fire, but they heard nothing more. In the morning they started out to look at the few traps they had set the previous evening and put out new ones. By an unspoken agreement they kept together all day, and returned to camp towards evening. On nearing it they saw, hardly to their astonishment that the lean-to had again been torn down. The visitor of the preceding day had returned, and in wanton malice had tossed about their camp kit and bedding, and destroyed the shanty. The ground was marked up by its tracks, and on leaving the camp it had gone along the soft earth by the brook. The footprints were as plain as if on snow, and, after a careful scrutiny of the trail, it certainly did seem as if, whatever the thing was, it had walked off on but two legs.

The men, thoroughly uneasy, gathered a great heap of dead logs and kept up a roaring fire throughout the night, one or the other sitting on guard most of the time. About midnight the thing came down through the forest opposite, across the brook, and stayed there on the hillside for nearly an hour. They could hear the branches crackle as it moved about, and several times it uttered a harsh, grating, long-drawn moan, a peculiarly sinister sound. Yet it did not venture near the fire. In the morning the two trappers, after discussing the strange events of the last 36 hours, decided that they would shoulder their packs and leave the valley that afternoon. They were the more ready to do this because in spite of seeing a good deal of game sign they had caught very little fur. However it was necessary first to go along the line of their traps and gather them, and this they started out to do. All the morning they kept together, picking up trap after trap, each one empty. On first leaving camp they had the disagreeable sensation of being followed. In the dense spruce thickets they occasionally heard a branch snap after they had passed; and now and then there were slight rustling noises among the small pines to one side of them.

At noon they were back within a couple of miles of camp. In the high, bright sunlight their fears seemed absurd to the two armed men, accustomed as they were, through long years of lonely wandering in the wilderness, to face every kind of danger from man, brute or element. There were still three beaver traps to collect from a little pond in a wide ravine near by. Bauman volunteered to gather these and bring them in, while his companion went ahead to camp and made ready the packs.

On reaching the pond Bauman found three beavers in the traps, one of which had been pulled loose and carried into a beaver house. He took several hours in securing and preparing the beaver, and when he started homewards he marked, with some uneasiness, how low the sun was getting. As he hurried toward camp, under the tall trees, the silence and desolation of the forest weighted on him. His feet made no sound on the pine needles and the slanting sunrays, striking through among the straight trunks, made a gray twilight in which objects at a distance glimmered indistinctly. There was nothing to break the gloomy stillness which, when there is no breeze, always broods over these somber primeval forests. At last he came to the edge of the little glade where the camp lay and shouted as he approached it, but got no answer. The campfire had gone out, though the thin blue smoke was still curling upwards.

Near it lay the packs wrapped and arranged. At first Bauman could see nobody; nor did he receive an answer to his call. Stepping forward he again shouted, and as he did so his eye fell on the body of his friend, stretched beside the trunk of a great fallen spruce. Rushing towards it the horrified trapper found that the body was still warm, but that the neck was broken, while there were four great fang marks in the throat. The footprints of the unknown beast-creature, printed deep in the soft soil, told the whole story. The unfortunate man, having finished his packing, had sat down on the spruce log with his face to the fire, and his back to the dense woods, to wait for his companion. While thus waiting, his monstrous assailant, which must have been lurking in the woods, waiting for a chance to catch one of the adventurers unprepared, came silently up from behind, walking with long noiseless steps and seemingly still on two legs. Evidently unheard, it reached the man, and broke his neck by wrenching his head back with its fore paws, while it buried its teeth in his throat. It had not eaten the body, but apparently had romped and gamboled around it in uncouth, ferocious glee, occasionally rolling over and over it; and had then fled back into the soundless depths of the woods.

Bauman, utterly unnerved and believing that the creature with which he had to deal was something either half human or half devil, some great goblin-beast, abandoned everything but his rifle and struck off at speed down the pass, not halting until he reached the beaver meadows where the hobbled ponies were still grazing. Mounting, he rode onwards through the night, until beyond reach of pursuit.”

--Timpicerilo (talk) 12:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Bears or not the entire small section is not giving undue weight, it plays an important encyclopedic part in the history of Bigfoot stories. I removed wording considered as undue weight.--Timpicerilo (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

What are you even talking about where quoting so much text above has anything To do with what we were talking about on the article? The bear sighting I wwa talking about was that mangy bear in the photos you and other editors over the past six months have been prmoting as important proof of Bigfoot's existence, not the bear in Rossevelt's story. You added all sorts of WP:UNDUE references to some photography group and some TV personality -- you get that we need reliable sources who are experts on a topic, right? Not people vaguely waving heir hands and calling something an unsolved mystery and etc.? Since you continued to add such content and did not fix the bad content once it was pointed out I'll have to go remove it for you to make the article comlpy with WP:RS and WP:UNDUE/WP:NPOV policy. DreamGuy (talk) 17:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no need to be rude about it regardless of what you have done in the past six months. You removed the information I added on the bear sighting in 1893. This was the story the Bigfoot proponents talk about as historical evidence; not the 1900 hunting grisly book you replaced it with. The wording in the excerpt from the book above is the reason why they draw this conclusion.

As far as the other the story, is there proof that it was a bear other than the Pennsylvania Game Commission vaguely waving the picture in the air and calling it a bear? The investigating Bigfoot experts have identified it as a juvenile Sasquatch. If there is 100% proof it indeed was a bear and everyone agrees upon it then it’s hardly worth mentioning in the article. As far as I can tell that wasn’t the case with that incident.--Timpicerilo (talk) 20:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Demanding "proof" for something is not how we do things here. Anyone pushing a WP:FRINGE view can try to demand that their side gets just as much attention as the mainstream expert side, but that's a violation of WP:UNDUE. "Investigating Bigfoot experts" is an oxymoron, as these experts are not in any way speaking for the field of zoology. It's like saying "Flat-Earth experts say the world is flat." or "People who think that crop circles are real communications from extraterrestrials examined the crop circles and proclaimed them real and unable to be created by mere humans." OF COURSE people who are spokespersons for wild, fringe views say they believe those fringe views. That's a tautology. We do not need to "balance" the views presented in articles, we need to report what the actual experts on the topics say. That's not some talking head infotainment guy on TV or distorting what some camera people o as part of a promotional to get press interest. And the part that "it's hardly worth mentioning in the article" is what the consensus has been saying for months, if you'd have followed the talk page discussion here instead of "archiving" it all way. We decided not to spend much time at all discussing this sighting except in the context of showing how lots of Bigfoot believers try to present bear sightings as Bigfoot sightings. And that's what the article was doing until you started putting back the same kinds of info that got those sockpuppet accounts blocked a few months back. DreamGuy (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

"They weren't bear sightings, they were Sasquatch sightings misinterpreted as bears." What if this was in the article? Some believe it, and for all we know it may be true. You have an expert that didn't claim it was a bear. Claims without proof are not facts therefore should not be represented as fact. I remember a time when some experts looked at photographs and told us there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, it became the popular consensus. Look at all the trouble that one got us into!--Timpicerilo (talk) 17:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Problem in ref source.

{{editsemiprotected}}

At ref>Buhs, Joshua Blu, Bigfoot: The Life and Times of a Legend (Chicago, The University of Chicago Press, 2009), 241</ref> It needs to be

Lacking the "<" sign, thus showing up in the article as "ref>Buhs, Josh..."

 Done Thanks! Celestra (talk) 17:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"Replaced incorrect info once again"

You know, when using an edit comment making a claim like that, you should make sure that the info you are replacing is actually incorrect. This edit does not "correct" any info, but instead adds in slanted, emotionally-worded unencyclopedic language intended to try to support a WP:FRINGE-violating POV. If you add that kind of ba content it will just be removed. DreamGuy (talk) 15:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The information is incorrect and I made sure of it. It was the 1893 book not the 1900 one. The wording makes it sound like they are talking about a Bigfoot and not a bear. Did you read the excerpt from it? It wasn't emotionally-worded it was a quote from the book, I have now added quotation marks.--Timpicerilo (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The usage of the word “conversely” adds neutrality to the article to fairly represent the few published significant viewpoints in proportion to the prominence of each. It allows balance to the opposing viewpoints. I also don't understand why this is repeatedly replaced with the wrong book. Maybe you should make sure that the info you are replacing is actually incorrect. If the majority of editors do not object I will replace both.--Timpicerilo (talk) 13:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

You don't get how things work. You need a consensus of editors to change something, not insist that you need a consensus of editors to stop you from making controversial changes. You do not WP:OWN this article and get to set the rules for how things are voted down or not. Per WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO you need consensus to make a controversial change, not the other way around. DreamGuy (talk) 17:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Do bears have 4 or 5 toes?

The article says they have 4. I had thought they have 5, each with a claw. The article Bear does not say.Steve Dufour (talk) 15:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

• 5 Steve Dufour (talk) 04:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Before 1958 section

This section is still extremely POV, as I described at length in previous talk page discussion that was archived before anything was done to resolve the problem. There were no Bigfoot sightings before 1958. Bigfoot folklore comes from Yeti stories, and the Native American and etc. stuff was only grafted onto it later to try to answer why an actual creature of that size could have been walking around without having been seen previously. This still needs to be fixed, as we don't want to mislead people by only giving the view of those people who think Bigfoot is real and use such alleged early stories to try to promote their side. DreamGuy (talk) 14:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The section itself says that wildman stories are found in most cultures. Why do Bigfoot stories have to come from any one source if they are a natural part of human culture? Steve Dufour (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The don't have to, but when there is one overwhelmingly large source for the specific topic this article is about, we need to present it as such instead of coming up with a bunch of after the fact explanations that are at odds with the historical record. DreamGuy (talk) 18:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

There are scientists that do not rule out the possibility of an undiscovered North American primate. Do not use this encyclopedia as a vehicle to promote anti-bigfoot sentiments or allow it to become a haven for hate groups riled over the mutable characteristics of Bigfoot believers.--Timpicerilo (talk) 11:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The vast majority of scientists so rule out the possibility of a man-sized (or larger) North American primate. Accurately describing the current expert opinion on a topic is not pushing an agenda, it's following WP:NPOV policy and not misleading our readers into believing fringe theories advanced by people nobody takes seriously. DreamGuy (talk) 18:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Mogollon Monster

Common sense tells me it has enough notability for a stand-alone article... Kudos to Plazak.--Timpicerilo (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with "common sense" is so many people with ideas that are neither common nor sensible decide that whatever they believe must be both or else they wouldn't believe it. DreamGuy (talk) 18:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

”there were multiple versions of the book”

This edit contains incorrect content. The change was talked about seven days before it was made with no objections from any editors. The most talked about version presented by Bigfoot proponents as historical evidence of the creature’s existence is the 1893 version. http://texascryptidhunter.blogspot.com/2009/04/what-lurked-near-banks-of-river-of.html --Timpicerilo (talk) 14:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, and that very fact is POV pushing, as they are specifically choosing the title that removes the bear from the title so it sounds more like a Bigfoot and less like the bear that it obviously was referring to. This title and date ARE accurate, and to claim that it's "incorrect" is wrong. The story comes from that book. The title you are talking about is the name of a section of that book that was published separately earlier. If we refer to a book name then we need the actual book name, which is the way I had it, not your way. I will revert your version per WP:BRD rules unless you can get a consensus of editors that your version is more correct, but it's not so I don't see that happening. When something is controversial we go by the WP:STATUSQUO until you get consensus to change, you don't get to change it to whatever you want and insist it stays that way. DreamGuy (talk) 17:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

It was the original story published in 1893 as a book called "The Wilderness Hunter" and is available at: http://overdrive.dclibrary.org/36DD7302-1EB5-4B02-8364-45B8650F2B59/10/323/en/ContentDetails.htm?ID=C7471F47-7EC5-434A-9CEE-508A314987B9 as I posted earlier. To say the 1900 book "Hunting the Grisly and Other Sketches" is sometimes presented by Bigfoot proponents as historical evidence of the creature's existence is incorrect. The Bigfoot proponents present the 1893 book. It's common sense that this part in the very least should be corrected to show this. Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and one must realize that such changes are often reasonable.--Timpicerilo (talk) 19:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Changes often are. Your suggested ones are not, as explained above. DreamGuy (talk) 18:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Reliability of sources (again?)

I assume this has been discussed before, but some of the cites in the article seem to be to amateur websites of questionable reliability. (WP:SOURCE, WP:RELIABLE). -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 15:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

We deal with this problem a lot. Feel free to list the problematic sources here or go ahead and remove them. I fother editors disagree with removal they will no doubt say so here. DreamGuy (talk) 18:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

yowie/bigfoot

I live on the tiwi islands in the northern part of australia and my family and myself have all seen these bush man.It is also a legend among our elders.But he also poops out deers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.205.201.11 (talk) 03:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)