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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 199.125.109.59 (talk) at 18:08, 13 November 2009 (→Requested move: format for bot !nosign!). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good articleBuncefield fire was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 13, 2005Good article nomineeListed
August 27, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Early comments

Whatever it was, it was blinking big! The pressure wave shook my house forty/fifty miles away. I was convinced it was something at Heathrow (near where I live) and was shocked when Sky News reported it was Hemel. Pcb21 Pete 07:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was watching a live BBC news report from the Foreign Office in central London and the reporter was distracted by the sound of the blast. Massive! Griffin147 SG 07:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can we get a source on the claims of a plane crashing? I know this is all coming striaght off the wire, but this is now on the main page and people will look to Wikipedia for credible coverage straight away (think back to the rush after the London bombings). Any sources will do. Harro5 08:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind that, the police have denied all such rumors...Thesocialistesq 08:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should stick to reliable sources only, such as the BBC and Sky News. Forbsey 08:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The police may say that they are treating this as an accident rather than an attack; the reality is that they would say this even if they knew it to be an attack. I have opened the possibility that they may be being disingenuous on the page itself. Sjc 08:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Er, no they wouldn't. As soon as the July 7 explosions were known to be bombs, the police said so. Dan100 (Talk) 08:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Untrue. The police knew pretty much from the outset with the July 7 explosions that there were bombs in play, and did not say so until some two or three hours after the first explosions. I will dig up the relevant links if necessary. Sjc 10:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Further it should be noted that the Chief Constable of Hertfordshire in his press conference indicated that while he considered it to be an accident, the police were keeping an open mind on the cause of the incident.Sjc 11:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with you Dan. I turned on the news as soon as I felt the house shake, and the only evidence of anything other accident was some very early uninformed speculation. Not surprised that all the news channels are not pursuing that angle Pcb21 Pete 09:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

CNN just had an official on the phone who reported that all 20 of the tanks are alight. Also she said there is no confirmation of an airplane. Blacknail 08:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

[1]

I wouldn't trust that bit on the 20 tanks, BBC's not carrying it at all. And what is all this "inversion layer" business? I haven't heard that from any other source. (ah, sorry) 66.1.90.148 17:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
BBC 5 Live interviewed a spokeswoman from Hertfordshire CC who cited 20 tanks being ablaze. Please sig your comments if possible also :) Sjc 08:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
BBC News 24 have been discussing the inversion layer stuff at some length. Vashti 09:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This thing smacks of the Black Tom explosion of 1916 in New York. — Rickyrab | Talk 09:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have an article on the explosion at the BP plant in Houston, Texas earlier this year? Pcb21 Pete 09:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Not AFAIK; but here is a link to BP's commenst on it [2]Sjc 09:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

With regards the plane crash rumours, lets not give Wiki a reputation for jumping on the rumour wagon from the get-go; there has been no confirmation of a plane crash - it would be obvious 3 hours after the event surely? - so such content should be avoided if at all possible. There is nothing to say an "eyewitness" phoned the BBC from nowhere near the event merely to cause mischief doktorb 09:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's rather too late, sadly. Wikipedia is well-known for being a rumour mill at times like these. People love their conspiracy theories and are loathe to get rid of them - never let the facts get in the way of a good story! Thank goodness the aircrash rubbish has been excised now. Dan100 (Talk) 10:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In fact with any articles it could make wiki be more reliable that 'official' news sources, not to jump on rumors; keep it encyclopedic people. 86.130.209.105 09:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good thinking. To read some of the language that has been used on this page, there is almost a sense that people want to report the most sensationalist angles and rumours. Clearly not enough death here to fulfil most people's voyeurism ;). Pcb21 Pete 10:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Holy cow that was biggish

Holy cow that was biggish

If that was only big-ish, I wouldn't want to be around when something really big, in your eyes, goes up! Pcb21 Pete

Distance heard

Well I was half awake at 6AM and heard some explosions. Wondered what it was. So unless something else exploded, that is explosion heard at a distance of just about 100 miles. Sandpiper 10:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was awake at 6.30, and Radio Five Live was reporting SMS messages reporting the explosion being heard in Cambridge, Bungay (Suffolk), and Putney. -- Arwel (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW I was awake at 6am, the whole house shook for several seconds and the windows rattled in their frames. And we're 25 miles from Hemel Hempstead! -- Francs2000 17:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It was reportedly heard in the Netherlands (Holland). Must have been big fireworks! Considering its magnitude I find it impossible that noone was killed. Something is just not OK with the story.
Not that "impossible" at 6am on a Sunday morning. Apparently the depot had a staff of just two, and the nearby industrial estate was pretty much deserted. It would have been a different story at half past eleven on a Tuesday. Tonywalton  | Talk 17:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I had a geography teacher in Hemel School who had a big bug bear about Buncefield, saying he didn't know what would become of us all if that ever went up in smoke. But what did happen was that on the day that the biggest Post War explosion in Europe took place, 7 people were injured. Contrast this with a report from Pakistan the very same day were a busload of unfortunate people returning from a wedding died in the blaze when someone let off a celebratory firecracker. This has to be down to good town planning. As Hemel Hempsteadians will know, there is nothing that near Buncefield depot. The next thing to it is the cemetary, then the industrial estate, and only after that private residences. That was well planned by the good old New Town planners - they didn't get everything right but they got that bit right. If you look at Geneva, among other places, but Geneva was one example they showed in the press, you may notice that their equivalent depot is very close to dwellings - let's hope they learn something from the Buncefield episode and do something about it before they have a tragedy. --Uncle Davey (Talk) 17:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I live in southern Herfordshire, But this Blast never woke me up. Ok, so I might be a heavy sleeper, but I seriously doubt if this blast was heard in Holland. At least not as a blast, maybe a faint rumble was heard.
Hertfordshire or Herefordshire? Either way, an expert on acoustics wheeled in by BBC 3 Counties Radio (Herts/Beds/Bucks) said today that it's entirely possible that atmospheric conditions could mean that it was more audible far away than nearer. (I live in North London some 15 miles away and never heard it either, but then I could sleep for England!) Tonywalton  | Talk 17:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hertfordshire, sorry about the typo. But it is claimed above that a reporter was distracted in Central London, even I don't sleep that well. --The1exile 17:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It seems I do :-) The lady next door did say she was woken up by it. :-) Tonywalton  | Talk 23:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
My brother and his family live about 2 km away, and my parents live about 2,5 km away, and they thought the next world war had started. Apparently the sky turned orange shortly afterwards.--Uncle Davey (Talk) 17:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Should the title really be 2005 Hemel Hempstead fuel depot explosions? Has there been a previous explosion in Hemel Hempstead? I would think that a more appropriate title would be Hemel Hempstead fuel depot explosions, unless there is some policy I'm not aware of which calls for the year to be included in the title. 134.173.94.191 11:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is any explicit policy to that effect. However a comprehensive nomenclature such as this would cover the bases and disambiguate in the event of any future occurrences. Sjc 11:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Smoke everywhere

File:Picture 196.jpg
Smoke in the sky, Hazlemere, Bucks. 11:24am on 11th December 2005.

I got up to do my paper round and I could hardly see when I was walking down the road, the smoke was everywhere, and as i climbed a hill i could hardly see the sun thru it. This is 23 miles away from Hemel.

Smoke visible on Satellite Image?

The current UK met office Visible spectrum satellite image (11 Dec 2005 - 11:00 UTC) shows a huge black cloud in that area - looks like a smoke plume to me.

Obviously this will age out pretty quickly - but thought it might be of interest for now (Can't copy the image as it is Crown Copyright). Dugo 12:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Would be good to have a satellite image of the smoke,here is a much better one.

Wrong information

In the article it claims "all 20 of the site's three million gallon capacity tanks are on fire." This is not correct. Both the MP for Hemel Hampstead and the poilce sercvices have said that there are more exploisions expected from so far un-affected tanks and the BBC coverage has even shown the unexploded tanks. See this arcicle where is also mention the unexploded tanks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4517962.stm

Check the page history; that chunk of information started out as something like "people believed all 20 three million gallon tanks are aflame", then a few word changes brought it to "...all 20 of the site's three million gallon tanks are believed to be afire". I shortened "believed to be" to "allegedly" - all the better to condense the sentence. Someone then took out "allegedly", and I (an American who happened to be up in the middle of the night near New York), among others, believed him or her. So, naturally, we let it be. I stand corrected. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Page duplication

Take care with your edits please, people. Duplication of pages is a known problem with the MediaWiki software when there is a high rate of edits on a page, as is happening here today. -- Arwel (talk) 12:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bloody hell

I can see a huge amount of smoke outside...:eek: XYaAsehShalomX 12:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good thing I'm on the western side of the Atlantic. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Met Office Image

Not sure how to upload an image for inclusion in the main article, plus this is a 'live' image anyway, but figured someone else might be able to include it to give another perspective to all the 'ground level' shots so far: http://www.met-office.gov.uk/satpics/latest_uk_vis.html Check out the massive cloud of black smoke covering a large portion of the South East... perhaps this area could be cropped and included.

Cool someone's included NOAAs images, to much better effect. Thx.

Image Sources

Isn't that map from the BBC website? Is it copyright? Average Earthman 14:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's a nice map, but I'm fairly sure it's copyright too. -- Mithent 14:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is the geograph b.t.w. (for photos of the area), but it's only got a view of the place's gates. Ojw 14:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Same goes for the aerial map of "just to the west of the fire". This seems to come from getmapping.com and appears not to be licenced. Tonywalton  | Talk 23:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Quote to add somewhere

Listening to a press conference, there's a pertinent quote from the Chief Fire Officer of the fire service in the region, who's saying that he's been informed that "[the incident] is the largest of its type in peacetime Europe." I can't find a suitable place to put it in myself, but I'm putting it on the talk page in case somebody else can see where it might go. --Sanguinus 15:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fire officer also says tackling the fire will require "millions of litres of foam", and that extra foam concentrate was being brought in from elsewhere.--Sanguinus 15:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Piper Alpha

Should some mention be made of the Piper Alpha accident? 216.164.138.57 15:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In the see also section a list of large explosions is linked to. I don't think comparisons can be drawn at this time. -- Francs2000 17:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Timing?

I am in Oxhey, Watford, 7 miles from Hemel Hempstead, and heard the first explosion at 5.59 am. I only looked at my taskbar clock, but I've subsequently checked this for accuracy and it was only about 2 seconds fast (which would proabaly be countered by the time it took the sounds to travel here). Either way, I think the time is more likely 5.59 am. Also, I thought the second and third explosions were nearer 6.20am and 6.22am. Certainly the loudest explosion I've ever heard. I have almost a direct line of site to the location of the explosion, and while there were no physical effects on my house, a few friends in central Watford has windows nearly blown in and loft doors blast open.

The official line given by most news agencies is that the first explosion occurred just after 6am. Unless you can provide a good reference that it was any earlier we can't really alter the timings. -- Francs2000 19:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Although you could certainly do so on wikinews. Rich Farmbrough 21:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Siesmic info from http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/recent_events/world_special/alert_info.htm shows the blast happened at 06:01:31 DATE : 11 December 2005 ORIGIN TIME : 06:01 31.2s UTC LAT/LONG : 51.77° North / 0.40° West GRID REF : 510.7 kmE / 209.4 kmN DEPTH : 0 km MAGNITUDE : 2.4 ML LOCALITY : Hemel Hempstead area

Alert

I'm weaveing this into the article. While Wikipedia is wonndeful, it is an encyclopedia, and people are not going to turn to it for local instructions, when they have the phone, local radio, press, TV and news web sites. Rich Farmbrough 22:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I have removed the alert. -- Francs2000 22:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC) (One of the countless hundreds of people who has been advised to stay in, lock the cat in and tape up the doors and WIDOWs </tongue-in-cheek>[reply]
All the same, it should be prudent for Wikipedia to do some impromptu market surveying and marketing every now and then, so we know what the people expect of us. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Attribution

It would be good if instead of "the police said" we can say "XX Police force" of better still, "Superintendant X of Y said" Rich Farmbrough 22:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're after Hertfordshire Constabulary, which is a regrettable redlink. -Splashtalk 22:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
But their website is here [3] -- Francs2000 22:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a redlink anymore, stubs are easy to create... -- Francs2000 23:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'm not feeling stubby this evening... -Splashtalk 23:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comparable explosions?

This section doesn't actually provide comparable examples - the first line states "catastrophic explosion in the UK in terms of loss of life", but this explosion has 0 confirmed casualties[edit: fatalities] so far...

If there is going to be a section on comparisons surely it should be comparing something which might actually be relavent to this event? QmunkE 22:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is it maybe worth trying to do some comparison of the smoke plumes? Is this the biggest pall of smoke over Europe since the war? If so, which war event caused a bigger one? Dresden, perhaps? Or Hamburg? If not, which post-war event did? Chernobyl? Stromboli? I don't have enough information to do this myself, but it might be interesting. User:alasdairrussell 11:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's not comparable in size, but it might be worth mentioning the Flixborough disaster of 1974, a fuel-air explosion at a chemical plant; smaller explosion, similar mechanism, higher deathtoll. Shimgray | talk | 17:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Is it worth putting in the map that sits alongside this news item on the main page? It's this one. -- Francs2000 23:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, I added it before I saw this post. Yes, I think it probably is. Beforehand, we had a map taken from the BBC website that was very unlikely to be fair-usable. On the other hand, the pic of the black smoke cloud does pretty much do the job of locating HH and Buncefield, but only if you know the shape of the UK as a whole -Splashtalk 23:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you showed ME that map of the UK with the cloud on it and said "point to where you live" I'd probably get it wrong... Anyway it's been a pleasure editing this article today but I have a bed to get to and I'll try not to wonder if the fog outside really *is* fog... -- Francs2000 23:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Commons

Is there a commons page for photos? Have uploaded one at [4] but couldnt find category/page. Justinc 01:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Minor/Serious Casualties

How can you have minor and serious casualties? Third paragraph: "the police indicated that there were in the region of 36 casualties, most of which appear to be minor, only 4 of which being deemed serious." Or is it supposed to be injuries? That whole section (3rd paragraph) will need to be fixed by someone who knows the real numbers, because at the moment it's a mess.

BBC now reporting all but two of the casualties have been released from hospital, and the two that are in there aren't in a life threatening condition. --Tphi 13:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Casualties" admitted to hospital?

This line makes little sense. "There were forty three reported casualties; two were deemed serious enough to be kept in hospital, one in Watford General Hospital, with breathing difficulties, and another in Hemel Hempstead Hospital; they were not in a life-threatening condition." Casualties are dead. The only "breathing difficulty" they can have is not being able to breathe at all. --Lunar Jesters (talk) 01:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No they're not. "Casualties" are people who are injured, only two of whom needed to be kept in hospital. -- Arwel (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In the true definition, casualties are those injured or dead. However, most people like me (probably a U.S. thing) assume casualties means how many are dead. Fableheroesguild 14:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's a British article. 198.161.230.10 03:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Inversion Layer?

Can anyone shed some light on how this meteorological phenomenon, the inversion layer, permitted sound to travel so far? I have read the Wikipedia article on the subject, but I derived nothing more from this than the air was particularly still this December morning.

The inversion layer forms because the low-level air temperature is colder than at altitude. As the sound wave travels out from the explosion, when it hits the warmer air at altitude it refracts and from a certain angle (like 45 degrees or such like) it undergoes total internal reflection. It can then continue bouncing between the ground and the inversion layer for quite a distance.WolfKeeper 03:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in our bedroom (50 km from the explosions), only one door rattled in its frame. Why is this? Is it that the natural resonant frequency of this system just happened to be that of the sound or something? I don't understand how such a shockwave could travel through the house.

Cheers, JoachimK 02:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've not read any mention of this fact elsewhere, and it doesn't appear to have a reference in this article. Did this really happen, or is this just speculation/first hand reporting? -Splashtalk 02:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The weather guy on BBC News 24 said that an inversion layer was present that morning, citing the existence of low-level fog and various other features (the ground cools more quickly than high level air overnight apparently). Whilst I wouldn't trust weather persons on other channels (i.e. who are often their to look pretty or whatever :-) ), IRC BBC weather people actually have to be qualified in meteorology.WolfKeeper 03:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
AIUI "BBC weather people" aren't "BBC weather people", they're real proper meteorologists, employed by the Met Office, not the BBC.Tonywalton  | Talk 17:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Accident, my [rear depletive]

Only three days before the big bang Ayman al Zawahiri, 2nd in Al-Kaida and right hand of UBL told all the mujahideen over Jazeera TV to attack oil facilities everywhere, because oil revenues only serve the crusaders and imperialists.

So it obviously must have been terror, because a mere coindicdence simply has too low probability. Britain has been hit a second time in 2005 and politicians should not deny it. Trying to invent accidents and other false explanations will only bring them political fallout like in Spain. The general public cannot be fooled for long! Blair, the Bush Jr. valet should better resign.

Obviously. Rich Farmbrough 09:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
economic targets have obvious potential for terrorists, but the latest bunch of terrorists have been going a few years now. If terrorists have a campaign against you for long enough, there have to be natural disasters in that time which people could claim were their fault. That said, no one is close enough to examine anything yet to get an idea what might have happened, and I havn't heard staff being interviewed. If someone dropped a cigarette, they might be a bit embarassed to admit it. Sandpiper 12:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's not really Al-Quaida MO, though is it? They usually tend to go after big civilian targets, of late particularly transport systems that are quite vulnerable. I should imagine an oil depot is rather harder to blow up than a bus - you're gonna need quite a lot of decent explosive to breach the tanks, and more than one tank was blown up it seems. I'd say terrorism is an unlikely explanation. User:alasdairrussell

Going for anything which does not have watchfull police all over it seems quite a good plan if you are a terrorist. However, the article says that someone nearby smelled petrol before the blast? Sandpiper 17:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but thatdoesnt make sense. If it takes "a lot of decent explosive to breach the tanks" then how were the tanks breached in the first instance?
Corrosion? The tanks themselves are full of fuel. Any leakage of that fuel will give vapour, which is most definitely explosive. All it takes then is a spark.WolfKeeper 20:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Also, economic targets make a lot of sense strategically if you are a terrorist.
This is not the place for speculation. Take it to the pub. Mark1 17:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty odd that Nostradomus appears to have been quiet on the subject. Pcb21 Pete 20:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=2388242005 discusses the security on these sites. 198.161.230.10 04:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Attribution requested

"Reports also indicated that cars in nearby streets caught fire" I've seen some footage of blast damaged cars. Rich Farmbrough 09:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure I saw burnt out cars on the TV rather than just ones with blast damage. Jooler 20:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Number of schools

The Herts count council page http://www.hertsdirect.org.uk/ listing the schols closed has been updated as late as 23:00 last night. If someone counted the number of closed schools then. I thought an approximate number was better than an out of date 193. Ig 193 was accurate, please feel free to change it back. Rich Farmbrough 10:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

is the fire still burning at 12/12/05 13:30

Yes the fire is still burning at 16:30 12/12/05. The fire brigade started to attack the fire with foam around mid-morning, but the police have now shut the M1 again for fear of further explosions, so maybe the fire is starting to win the battle. Let's hope the firemen are all 'safe'. 160.84.253.241 16:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

number of tanks

I noticed the chief fire officer being intervied said 20 tanks had been on fire, seven not. then 10 put out, then two more, then one on fire again, one at risk. Then he did a sum and said ten more needed to be put out. On the face of it, that maths does not add up.

BBC News Report on Fuel involved

I heard on BBC Radio 4 earlier that the fire was burning "avtar" and that there was a strong smell of kerosene. - I think that what they actually meant was Avtur, a type of jet fuel. Ian Dunster 00:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per [Buncefield Terminal Fast Facts] from Total. the storage area that was on fire was primarily used for fuels (such as petrol/gasoline and diesel) other than aviation fuel (which according to that information was stored in HOSL East, which didn't burn). At least one tank was storing aviation fuel though, it seems; the tank that caused the withdrawal of firefighters on the afternoon of Dec 12 turned out to contain this, which is why they went back. Tonywalton  | Talk 23:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sky News Image

Can that Sky News image actually be said to be being used "for identification and critical commentary on the television ident or programme and its contents"? 198.161.230.10 03:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NOAA Image

Can someone label the fuel depot on the satellite image of the smoke? It'd be a lot better than an explanation of how it's north-west of London, but not west, etc... (no photo editing on my computer...) 198.161.230.10 04:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How's [5] ] look? I've not replaced it on the page because the original [[Image:Hemel_Hempstead_fuel_explosion_map.jpg is listed as a {{FPC}} featured picture candidate and I wouldn't want to replace that with my rubbish without asking! Tonywalton  | Talk 01:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Environmental Impact

Is now about the right time to start a section on the environmental impact of the fire? I have heard news reports saying what some of the environmental factors are likely to be but don't know how to start wording it. -- Francs2000 12:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I've had a look at the the Environment Agency's website.. it talks briefly.. in fact I'll just paste up the short press release from them -max rspct 13:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)>>[reply]

"The Environment Agency is continuing to assess the potential environmental impact of the blasts at Buncefield fuel depot, and is taking all action it can to minimise the risk of damage to the environment.

Firefighting began at 8.20am, and at present the main area of concern for the Environment Agency is ensuring the fire-water and foam run-off are contained within the site.

The fire-waters, combined with oil and petrol, could have a severe impact on surface and ground water quality, and, in turn, aquatic life.

This pollution would only occur if the run-off escaped from the site, and at present the Environment Agency is working with the fire service to ensure measures are taken to avoid this situation – with run-off being collected in bunds around the site and pumped to on site storage areas.

As a precaution a drinking water abstraction borehole has also been closed in conjunction with Three Valleys Water Company. Other private abstractors have also been advised of the situation. Any abstractors with concerns should call 08708 506 506 for further advice.

The Environment Agency continues to work closely with all of the other organisations involved. In particular it is working with the Health Protection Agency, and investigating the likely extent of the plume of smoke from the fire and its impacts.

Colin Chiverton, Environment Manager, said: “At present we are looking at the predicted impact of the smoke plume, but that is clearly dependent on weather conditions and success in putting out the fire. Agencies are currently performing an analysis of the smoke plume. Based on the type of fuel stored at the site and the foam that has been used we do not believe there is significant long-term risk to the environment. We will liase with Local Authorities on any specific local concerns on air quality and deposits of dust from the fire.

He continued: “People should follow Health Protection Agency’s advice with regard to health impacts in particular those with any respiratory condition.” " > source

One irony, of course – all that fuel was destined to be burnt in any case, in vehicle or aircraft engines. It so happens that it went in one go, and burnt inefficiently (so went to visible carbon smog rather than invisible greenouse-promoting CO2), but in a way all this "Toxic Cloud Hits Tonight" stuff (as the London Standard headline had it on 12th Dec) should really have read "Well Well This Time We Can See The Pollution". Perhaps that's why none of the experts they keep wheeling in seem too concerned - basically all that's happened in global terms is that there's been a couple of weeks' worth of pollution released in a couple of days, albeit very spectacularly. Tonywalton  | Talk 00:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ha ha!

I'm sitting up in the North of England laughing at the French and Southerners. Let's just hope the wind doesn't turn :P --Computerjoe 16:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Flixborough to you, mate. Tonywalton  | Talk
That kind of input is unnecessary. Howie ☎ 19:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

in the south and france the smoke is like 5000 feet above ground

Did a lovely sunset though Sandpiper 15:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Event Chart

I have erected an event chart for the time that was given for the first blast at Hemel Hempstead. Although I have not done a complete delineation of the event, it is noteworthy to comment on the fact that at 6:03 am on 11 Dec 05 in Hemel Hempstead, the celestial configuration was that of a grand square in the fixed signs of Aquarius, Taurus, Leo, and Scorpio. Neptune, which governs gas, opposes Saturn, which governs order. Jupiter, which rules expansiveness, opposses Mars, which rules aggression. Both oppositions are perpendicular to each other, ensuring that each angle forms a square across the chart. I have not put the chart on wikipedia becuase in the past certain individuals have deleted the work that I have contributed, but if you visit the astrology site that I am also a member of, you will be able to look at it. Regards,--TracyRenee 18:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Name

This incident seems to be referred to more as "Buncefield" rather than "Hertfordshire": should the article be renamed? —Ashley Y 20:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The official name (and company name) of the storage depot is Hertfordshire Oil Storage Ltd., the terminal is called the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Terminal... And User:Cyrius has already set up a redirect (remember, "redirects are cheap") from Buncefield]. Tonywalton  | Talk 00:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
people would likely know where Hertfordshire is, whereas Buncefield could be anywhere. Sandpiper 15:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gibberish

"Other safety experts spoke of a known "Weekend effect" in industry in which weekend maintenance is carried out on plant which is then reinstated in an unsafe condition."

This line is complete gibberish.Bartimaeus 22:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense to me. They do maintenance on a weekend (is that gibberish?) They put plant back into service (which bit of that's gibberish?) and the plant is reinstated in an unsafe condition (where's the gibberish there, please?). If you feel the article would be better off without it, or it needs editing, do feel free to be bold} and do something about it!. Tonywalton  | Talk 23:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Just a major punctuation, style and grammar problem that is all. But if you want this article to look like it is written by a 5yo leave it the way it is.Bartimaeus 06:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. 86.140.96.8 08:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikinews

Maybe I don't understand the purpose or mission of Wikipedia, but can anyone explain why this article is here on the Wikipedia, as well as on the Wikinews? Would it not be best to leave it on Wikinews *only*? - Agent Alf

As the articles on here appear to often be updated far quicker than the ones on Wikinews I see why it seems pointless to have both, but it seems to me that Wikinews and Wikipedia should cover the same issues/events, just in a different way. Wikinews should put up the information, perhaps in semi-summary form, when it comes in while Wikipedia should be building up a general, organised information article about the event that people in the future can look at. This Wikipedia article could even be created after the event as there is no rush for an encyclopedia. Once the event is over, if it isn't as important as it orginally seemed (which isn't the case here), or is of a different nature, the article in Wikipedia could even be merged or moved into another article. This shouldn't happen too often in Wikinews as the stories should really run along as much of a chronological order as they can. At least that's what I think. To be honest I never really check Wikinews that often as it seems inferior to the current news articles that get created on here at present. Hopefully that will change in time. I'm sure someone else can point you towards some long FAQ about the subject. Jellypuzzle 12:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The other key difference is that wikinews often includes eye-witness testimony of wikireporters which would (possibly incorrectly) be frowned on here. Also, although wikinews articles are kept, I see them as ephemeral. Rich Farmbrough 13:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I don't entirely agree, but what happens on Wikipedia, tends to happen again and again. An 'event' like this is certainly news worthy, and I'd expect Wikinews to run with it, but for an Encyclopedia? Are other encyclopedia's stopping the presses and wondering under which chapter to place this fire? - Agent Alf.

Wikipedia is not paper. violet/riga (t) 14:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
famous disasters would certainly be an encyclopedic topic. In fact, if there isn't such a category, there should be. Is there one on the oil fires in Iraq, Kuwait? Sandpiper 15:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My own personal POV on this is that it is right that it is here because

  1. Editors are currently interested in this topic and will make edits because of this. Wikipedia is all about collaboration.
  2. News sources are easier to find at the moment than they will be in say a month.
  3. Many people will be looking at Wikipedia (as I did) to see if it has an article.
  4. Nothing is permanant and I would be very suprised if this article didn't have lots of changes from the current status over the next few months. That will include more analysis and implications and possibly the removal of some parts that are found to be wrong, one sided or too simplistic.

--NHSavage 20:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

start

have they found out what sarted it yet???

They are never likely to find that out - the damage to the terminal is so extensive that parts of it have been completely obliterated. -- Francs2000 22:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
according to the article, the fire chief said their best guess presently was a petrol vapour escape, which caught fire. Sandpiper 15:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I will go along with that one, the Tanker driver on the racks at the time stated he saw a Vapour mist. He then did the foolish thing and switched his battery isolator off. So, there we have the triangle, a Gas and Air mix stemming from a spilliage someplace, and then the third element, a source of ignition. The build up of Vapour must have happened over some time, and the weather conditions that morning resulted in preventing the Vapour from escaping into the Atmosphere. Instead it travelled along at low level untill it found a source of Ignition. We have all seen the TV programmes of Fire Fighters protecting themselves from the backdraft. Now multiply that by a K factor and imagine the Explosion that accured here. I still have friends and colleagues who work at Buncfield, and really releived that no major casualties were reported. I also think the long term future of the Complex is in doubt, and rightly so. It should be based back at Stanlow on the Thames Estuary, alongside the Refinary and away from Housing and Business. Sparks --83.175.239.182 11:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Road closures

We now have a subsection for transport disruption. The motorway was closed initially, but it reopened at some point because it was closed again the following afternoon when a tank reignited. Then it was reopened, because there was news footage of people driving past the flames. It may have been closed at other points when something particularly dangerous happened. Does anyone have the precise chronology of this? Sandpiper 15:42, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Locating the blast source

Many comments have been from people who heard or felt the blast. Did you have any perception of the direction the blast came from?

Say there was no information forthcoming from authorites or the media (unlikely, I know). Would it be feasible for the wiki community to compare notes and determine the location of the blast source?

What info would be needed? Exact times (what's the best way of establishing that?) Direction of blast source (how to tell?)

jom

The investigation claims that there was a leak from container 912 on the 11th and that both it's gauge and senors were malfunctioning at the time. Could someone please post information about when this container was last serviced, named and when it was created? Somehow I think someone BIG has been starting fires again.

KING ADSUM

You might want to look at the Buncefield investiagation site and the Buncefield tank 'was overflowing' BBC News. I don't have time add these at present. --NHSavage 23:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personal memoir/memories, but inc. some potentially useful info

Moved from article, as this obviously needs some cross-checking, a rewrite to remove the 1st person style, and then to be properly integrated... possibly in the article about the site, as opposed to this one, about the disaster.--Myfanwy 03:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I spent over twenty years working at the Buncefield Oil Depot, having Retired in 2001. I can probably add some usefull input to the Terminal report. Firstly, the complex is known locally and nationaly as Buncefield Oil Storage and Distribution Terminal. HOSL forms part of that complex, along with Shell (now closed, and using HOSL) BP and BPA, who both use their own Storage and Distribution facilities. HOSL is served mainly by the FINA oil pipeline out of Humberside, and is multi product, i beleive a 10 inch pipe. They also receive fuel from the UKOP pipeline system, purchasing product as required. BPA is the operator but NOT OWNER of the TWO UKOP pipelines, one from Merseyside that terminates at the north of the BPA terminal and is a 10 inch pipe, and one from Thames Haven that terminates at Kingsbury Terminal, near Birmingham, with a major spur into BPA that is a 14 inch pipe. Both these pipelines are multi product, that is white refined oils only. (red dye is added after refining to HSGO) BPA also operate an AVTUR storage and distribution terminal at this Complex, and TWO Avtur pipelines to Heathrow, and continuation down to Gatwick. These pipelines are 6 and 8 inch to Heathrow, and 10 inch to Gatwick. Luton Airport is road tanker fed only, and SHELL operate this facility to their own depot at Luton.--83.175.239.182 10:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)Sparks

Odd sentence

Well, all the comments on this talk page seem to be very dated, so it seems now it's not a current event, there are few people interested. Anyway, having come here via Flixborough, I notice a sentence that I'm struggling to make sense of:
"It was critical of HSE's general safety culture and showed that in the UK the severities and frequencies of explosions like that at Buncefield were unacceptably high." (my emphasis added).
Is there a 'likelihood of' missing somewhere? As it reads, it looks like we have explosions like that in the UK every other day (the frequencies are unacceptably high? 1 such explosion in donkeys years is hardly frequent)! I'd change it myself, but I don't know what the editor who added that part actually meant. Carre 21:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article was a bit of an odd mix of opinion, facts and tenses but has been improved considerably. I've removed the last part of the sentence as I agree it sounds odd and needs verifying - some of the grammar "severities and frequencies..." was also a bit meaningless. If anyone has a strong objection to the last part of the final sentence being removed, they should go back the report mentioned and re-frame/cite the wording. Regards. Escaper7 08:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't read to me that it has to be every day. If with a good system in place you expected incidents every X years but in the UK because of poor systems in place you get incidents every 1/2 X years (i.e. twice as often) that would imply the frequencies is excessively high to me. It also depends on the number of sites in the UK of course Nil Einne (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citation

I have provided a citation for the statement of this being the biggest explosion in peace time europe. WilliamH 15:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Buncefield fire/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: --Malleus Fatuorum 17:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some detailed comments below, but my main concern with this article is that it seems to leave its story unfinished, only briefly mentioning an anniversary service held in 2006. Surely the official investigation must have concluded by now? I'm putting this article on hold, to allow time for these issues to be addressed.

Lead

  • Really needs expanding by a paragraph to better summarise the article. For instance, I'd expect to see something about the cause of the explosion, something about its immediate effects, and something about the lessons learned from the incident.
 Not done I will do the lead after I've done all the other points. LouriePieterse 15:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Added the needed information to the lead. LouriePieterse 07:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Explosion and fire

  • "Because of an inversion layer, the explosions were heard up to 125 miles (201 km) away; there were reports it was audible in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands." Which is it? One explosion or many explosions? Was it just the initial explosion that was heard in Belgium, etc?
 Done The reference refers to the explosions, so it was more than one. LouriePieterse 14:14, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Damage from the blasts, ranging from broken windows—including Holy Trinity, the local church and Leverstock Green School losing over 90 panes and blown-in or warped front doors to an entire wall being removed from a warehouse, occurred more than half a mile (800 m) away." I'm not quite following this, seems a bit muddled. Was it the school that lost 90 panes, or the school and church together? I think this needs to be rewritten.
 Done Already rewritten by someone else. LouriePieterse 14:18, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tackling the blaze

  • "This led to the M1 motorway being closed again". We haven't been told the M1 had been closed earlier, or anything about the public exclusion area that was widened.
 Done Initially this was mentioned in the Transport disruption section. I've added the facts to the Tackling the blaze section as well. LouriePieterse 14:39, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The smoke plume had been considerably reduced and was more grey, indicating the amount of vapourised water now combining with the smoke". lost the chronology here. Considerably reduced by when? Midday on the 13th?
 Done Added the days and dates to each paragraph to help understand the chronology. LouriePieterse 14:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bronze command—operations on the ground ... The entire gold command operation ...". Do you think it's necessary to talk about the gold, silver, bronze command structure? If you think it is, then it needs a brief explanation.
 Not done Are the explanation needed? There is a link to the command structure, and one could figure out what each one is. I don't know, I need your input on this one. LouriePieterse 14:57, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I dont think the explanation is needed, because there is a piece of text that explains what it is. The user could also use the Wikilink if he needs more information. LouriePieterse 11:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Evacuations and closures

  • The image at the head of this section clearly isn't of the refinery, as the caption claims.
 Done Somebody else already corrected it. LouriePieterse 15:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The University of Hertfordshire campus, located further afield in Hatfield remained open." This seems a bit like that famous newspaper headline. "Small earthquake in Chile, not many dead." I'm sure there were a great many other places in Hertfordshire that didn't close.
 Done Agreed, definitely not notable. Removed it from the article. LouriePieterse 15:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Business disruption

  • "As of 13 December both buildings were completely unusable". This is slightly ambiguus as it's written. Is this as 13 December 2009, or 13 December 2005? If the latter, surely the "as of" bit is redundant?
 Done Point already done by someone else. LouriePieterse 15:17, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Local criticism

  • This section seems too short to stand alone. I'd suggest merging it with the previous Business disruption section.
 Done Moved information to the Business disruption section. LouriePieterse 15:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The terminal

 Done Corrected tense issue. LouriePieterse 15:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Initial speculation on causes

  • We need citations for the "deliberate attack" rumours, and for the "weekend effect".
 Not done Added tags, would add references later. LouriePieterse 15:30, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I could only find a reference to support one of the facts. I removed the other from the article. LouriePieterse 11:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, the cause of the blasts will likely not be known until a full investigation is completed". I'm really concerned about this. It's now 2009, almost four years later. Hasn't there yet been a full investigation?
 Not done Would do a little research regarding the problem. LouriePieterse 15:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done The particular sentence was removed by someone else. I've added additional information about the actual cause. LouriePieterse 13:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One year on

  • I don't think there's enough here to warrant a stand alone section. I'd be expecting to see a wrap up section, telling me what lessons have been learned and so on. I'm not even sure from what the article has told me whether the terminal was repaired or whether it was abandoned. What was the total cost of the damage caused?
 Not done I am thinking about adding an Aftermath section. Would do it after I found information regarding the full investigation. LouriePieterse 15:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I've renamed the section and added the needed sections. LouriePieterse 15:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Malleus Fatuorum 17:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note for the nominator and reviewer

I've got my teeth into a few other projects at the moment, including a Featured List Candidate and a few articles I believe can be taken up to GA. But let me know when you re-start work on this article, as I'll be happy to help you out. I live near to the incident and am familiar with local sources of information, so if there are any sourcing or content issues I should be able to help.

For what it's worth I think that the coverage of the incident itself is extremely close to GA standard without much effort needed, but I feel that everything from "Responsibility and Legal action" downwards needs a re-write, except for "The terminal" (although that should probably be near the top). WFCforLife (talk) 11:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How are we getting on with this?

  • The nominator seems to have said that he/she will be back next week. I'm around and prepared to get my skates if you would rather significant work started before then, but if there's no hurry I'd prefer to wait for LouriePieterse, and help out if there are any problems. WFCforLife (talk) 22:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Be nice to wrap this up soon

OK, I think there's still some work needed here:

  • The tone of Afermath is a little too editorial: "Incidents such as these always produce valuable lessons to be learnt." Should just relate the facts without any spin.
 Done Removed the the spin. LouriePieterse 08:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The biggest problem though is with the innumerable prose problems in Aftermath.
  • "Other organisations accompanied the Health Protection Agency and the Major Incident Investigation Board (MIIB) to provided advice ...".
 Done Improved. LouriePieterse 08:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Computer modelling of plume movement and scattering are useful, but reliable and call forth measurements in various locations are also helpful."
 Done Removed sentence. LouriePieterse 08:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The MIIB highlighted the importance of the design and operations at fuel storage sites in their firth report."
 Done Removed sentence. LouriePieterse 08:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A large part of the depot have been destroyed and are in need of repair".
 Done Removed sentence. LouriePieterse 08:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed all the double facts and improved the prose where needed. LouriePieterse 08:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't rush to FAC with this, but I think it now meets the GA criteria, so I think we can at last close this now. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for you contributions! It really made a difference to the article. I really appreciate it. LouriePieterse 19:14, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

article name?

I'm really surprised that the article does not have "Buncefield" in the title. I don't know if "2005 Buncefield disaster" is appropriate (no-one died), but given that it's often referred to as "Buncefield" alone, surely it belongs in the name?


Requested move

2005 Hertfordshire Oil Storage Terminal fire → Buncefield fire — (see talk page) — MickMacNee (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As with the section above, I am perplexed by the ommission of Buncefield in the title, and it seems overly specific too. The 2005 qualifier is redundant surely given the scale, and the full name of Hertfordshire Oil Storage Terminal, is surely not known to most people, so its usefulness as a search target is dubious imo. In all, 2005 Hertfordshire Oil Storage Terminal fire is an extremely unlikely first try search term, and it also isn't exactly accurate, as the initial cause seems to have been petrol, not oil, as 'oil terminal' suggests.

So, what to change it to? Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) is pretty clear, names of events should pretty much be 'Where, What'. For where, Buncefield has to be the most commonly used 'where' term for this event, and so should be used per WP:COMMONNAME. For what, the standout candidates are imo explosion and fire. Fire edges explosion on Google predicted results. The also common but less used 'Disaster' just doesn't seem to intuitively fit compared to other disasters, especially with no fatalities.

So, I suggest Buncefield fire (currently a redirect). MickMacNee (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

Any additional comments:
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