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CfD nomination of Category:United States ghettos

The related Category:United States ghettos has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

Infobox Images for Ethnic Groups

Something needs to be done about the obsessive inclusion of Infobox images in ethnicity articles (especially X-American ethnicity articles, like Norwegian Americans). They're almost always OR, often unsourced, and frequently randomly-selected (no evidence given to support that the individual is widely considered a "poster child" of their ethnic group). I propose - simply - that we not include any user-created or user-selected people montages in the infoboxes... for any ethnic group. I outlined the main points above. Bulldog123 12:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Update Since there seems to be a lot of commotion about my proposal blanket-banning any image, including pictures of sleds, I'm revising the proposal to only be a ban of user-selected or user-created people montages, like the type found on the majority of ethnic group articles. Bulldog123 09:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wholeheartedly support this proposal. Such images are almost invariably more trouble than they are worth. Problems include: more or less overtly POV-motivated campaigns to have persons that represent a certain ideological view of the ethnic identity in question; invitation to endless disputes and bickering over who to include (absorbing huge amount of energy that could better be spent on improving the article, see recent example at Talk:Greeks, where the process has gone on for months); endless copyright problems (because of inexperienced editors creating poorly documented collages with non-free components). Finally, there has been a recent trend for these collages to grow bigger and bigger, to the point where they invalidate the whole concept of the infobox itself: many images are now so big that on most computer screens the actual information content of the box is pushed below the screen. The purpose of an infobox is to offer simple factbite-style information as quickly as possible. If you have to scroll down before reading it, it no longer fulfills its purpose. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. If they are unsourced, and contain any images of living people, they should be deleted on sight as a clear violation of WP:BLP policy. As for the more general point, I'd suggest that the default position should be not to have them, with the onus on anyone wishing to include them to provide evidence that (a) the persons involved have given a clear self-identification with the ethnicity in question, and (b) that this person's ethnicity is of significance to their notability. Again this is implied in WP:BLP policy. On a more general point, I'd suggest that any article about an 'ethnic group' should at the minimum have to prove that the 'group' actually exists; i.e. that a significant number of people actually self-identify with the ethnicity, rather than it being an external construct, or worse a cobbled-together synthesis used to push an agenda or reinforce a stereotype. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talk • contribs) 12:44, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Future Perfect sums the situation up perfectly and I also agree with Andy's comments about synthesis. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm inclined to support this effort. I have seen repeated, prolonged and rather heated discussions regarding image inclusion, and there have been issues with copyright, relevance and verifiability. I'd be glad to see all of this avoided in the future. One alternative to the infobox image might be to place one or two images in a "Notable x persons" section, assuming the person's ethnicity is already documented. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:52, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant support. While I think that image galleries are rather harmless, they are also rather useless, and I fully agree with Fut Perf that the energy spent on them is best spent elsewhere, and can lead to unnecessary friction. No image or collection of images can be truly representative of an entire ethnic group either way. Constantine ✍ 09:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I oppose the proposal as excessively drastic and unnecessary. I find such montages interesting, useful and educational whenever I happen to read an article about a particular ethnic group. There's always an element of "Oh wow, I didn't know so-and-so was an X-ian", or "Who is that?" and I end up reading an article about someone I ordinarily wouldn't have. I also think they serve a useful pedagogical purpose, particularly for our younger readers, who may be put off by a dry infobox. I am also not convinced by the arguments against. Sure, there are going to be problems with POV, OR, and copyright, but such problems are as old as wikipedia itself. By that rationale, we shouldn't have any articles or images about anything controversial. If a montage is OR or contains copyvio images, then simply remove the offending montage from the infobox. On the other hand, why remove a perfectly good montage that was reached by consensus and is neither copyvio nor OR? Removing all montages indiscriminately is like killing the patient in order to cure him. I also don't buy the argument that the debates around the montages are a time waster that prevents people from improving the article. Case in point, Greeks: People weren't exactly falling over themselves to improve the article before the montage issue came up, nor do they do so now that the montage discussion has largely died down. And personally, I found the discussion on who to include rather fun and not nearly as bad-tempered as some of the other discussions we see around those parts. Lastly, regarding the "scrolling" argument, I think we need to give our readers a little more credit than that. Athenean (talk) 01:26, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Surely the point is that all such montages involve original research and POV though, because the selection of images always reflects editors' own judgements about who is representative of the group? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:55, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • <quote>that was reached by consensus and is neither copyvio nor OR</quote> If it was reached by consensus, then it's automatically OR. There is no "consensus-finding" if it isn't OR. There's only external references describing said people as "quintessential examples of X-Americans." Bulldog123 15:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need a source that Pericles and El Greco are Greeks. And even if external sources were needed, we couldn't include every sourced X-American in the montage, hence a discussion and consensus would be needed. As far as I know, consensus trumps everything. If there is OR, sensible editors will object and consensus will not be reached. So if I see a meaningful consensus, that tells me that OR concerns have been dealt with. Athenean (talk) 19:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You might not need sources that say Pericles and El Greco are Greeks if there's enough in their articles to support that (and clearly there is), but you would need to prove they are the "poster-children" of Greek ethnicity. Otherwise.... yeah... you're pretty much just choosing whoever you (and your colleagues) want. Ethnicity changes over a span of a two-thousand years. It's not our job as Wikipedians to call El Greco more or less authentically Greek than someone like Aristotle Onassis. These montages, as they stand now, are OR no matter how you do it. The only way they wouldn't be OR was if you found some external source that says, "Quintessential examples of the Greek ethnicity include such figures as... blah blah blah." Good luck finding that. Bulldog123 19:43, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I'm concerned, if a solid consensus emerges about who to include and people stick to it, it ends there. Athenean (talk) 07:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, you know, that's not how it should be. Consensus is fleeting. The article is (or rather, can be) forever. I'm just not buying most of the reasons you give for why these images are beneficial. Surprise at discovering stuff like - "Oh wow, I didn't know that guy was ____ " - doesn't seem like a compelling enough reason to try to maintain something so unmaintainable. After all, if you didn't know that guy was ____ , he probably isn't the best example of ____ -dom. Why have images in the infobox anyway? Why not just put them in the List of Greeks? Bulldog123 16:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not all consensus is fleeting. Some consensi are rock solid. For example, the current montage at Greeks has been there for a long time. And even if consensus changes, that's not the end of the world. Just get a new consensus. That's how it works for articles, so why not montages? As for the educational purpose about the montages, not everyone is knowledgeable about every ethnic group. If I'm not very knowledgeable about Georgians, for example, the infobox montage can give me a sample of notable Georgians. The List of Greeks argument is also a non-starter. If we include an image for every person listed in there, there would too many images, people would complain that the page takes too long to load, there would be copyvio issues all over again (and a whole lot more of them), and so some people would once again propose a blanket ban...you see where this is going. That images can be problematic is not a reason to do away with them. Athenean (talk) 02:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's also a "Gallery of Georgian people" on Georgians which seems to serve the same exact purpose as the infobox but inherently makes less of the "poster-child" statement. Why can't we have these galleries on List of Greeks? If we believe Wikipedia users are smart enough to find Greeks in the first place, we have to expect them to be smart enough to find List of Greeks and be able to CLICK A LINK to see someone's picture. Why would every entry on a list need a picture? I thought this was just about "examples." Bulldog123 19:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose. Prohibiting certain types of content is a bad way to solve problems with disputatious editing. Yes, the montage in Norwegian Americans is an abomination, but that's no reason to remove all such galleries, and they are not inherently a cause of irresolvable conflict. For example, Māori has a montage that took less than two days for various editors to reach consensus on (at Talk:Māori/Archive 3#Montage), and that has since been in place for nine months without provoking conflict. I also do not agree that all individuals shown must be a "poster child" for of the ethnicity in question, or an acknowledged archetype of it. It is enough that together they provide a reasonably representative set of examples, taking space constraints into account. I'd have no objection to some guidelines regarding such montages, but completely prohibiting them is overkill. Banning all images from infoboxes is even worse. What's wrong with the picture shown in the previous version of the Maori article's infobox, for instance? --Avenue (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed my !vote from "strongly oppose" to just "oppose" now that Bulldog123 has changed the proposal to focus only on user-created montages of people, and struck the relevant part of my rationale. --Avenue (talk) 23:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also do not agree that all individuals shown must be a "poster child" for of the ethnicity in question, or an acknowledged archetype of it. I'm not sure it matters whether you (as in "we") agree about that or not. The presence of the image in the infobox itself is making the statement that those people are poster-children or acknowledged archetypes. And more importantly, by choosing the images ourselves, we're engaging in a little bit of OR-laced example-finding. Why are the people in the German American image montage greater embodiments of their ethnicity than other German Americans? Why do they get that special status? And how are we sure they'd even agree with that placement? All because a bunch of Wikipedia editors "found consensus?" The old image in Maori is certainly better than the one that's there now, although it's really unnecessary to begin with. If anybody wants to know what a Maori person looks like, I'm not sure why they can't go look at an image put in List of Maoris or something. Would it change your mind if the ban was only on user-compiled montages instead of just any image? Bulldog123 22:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If someone wanted to know what a Maori person looked like, the obvious place for them to look would be Maori, not List of Maori. Ditto for Greeks or any other ethnic group for that matter. Athenean (talk) 01:32, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ethnicity has next-to-nothing to do with appearance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this all sounds worrying like early anthropology. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:10, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How people present themselves is partly determined by culture, so ethnicity can indeed have something to do with appearance. I think the photos in the top line of the Maori montage are a good example. A picture is worth a thousand words; these convey aspects of traditional dress and adornment, gender differences in moko (facial tattoos), and much more.
The selection of photos for the Maori article's infobox was driven by availability of images of reasonable quality and the desire to show how Maori of each gender have presented themselves in different periods. I have trouble seeing much OR in that, although I suppose someone might wonder why those three periods were chosen. The individuals were generally not chosen as widely acknowledged archetypes of Maori people (and I still don't see why they should be); Hone Heke and Apirana Ngata are probably the only ones there who would qualify. I don't think readers would interpret the infobox photos as necessarily being archetypal representatives, and I don't believe we were making any such statement.
I don't see why the problems with certain infobox montages, mentioned above, should mean that all user-compiled montages must be banned. This is simply overkill. So no, I would not support a complete ban on such montages. Guidelines and editing restrictions would be appropriate, but not a ban. --Avenue (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would not be averse to establishing guidelines and editing restrictions, where the infobox image is concerned. My concern is to avoid long and drawn out discussions like this one regarding Somali people. I don't mean to cast aspersions on those involved in that discussion by bringing it up, but I think it suffered from several of the issues that have been raised in this current discussion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that discussion does look like a quagmire. Do you have any ideas about guidelines or editing restrictions that might have helped there? --Avenue (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously though, what's wrong with the idea of just not using a wikipedia-user-selected montage in the infobox? I still don't get why you are opposed to this. The discussion is less about having "any image" as it is about having "the montage image." I'm not strictly opposed to the picture of the sled in Inuits or the use of representative-images somewhere else. Why does it have to be in the infobox, where it can be misinterpreted to mean "an archetype" or "a posterchild." Bulldog123 18:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm glad you're moving away from requiring a total ban on all infobox images. I personally feel that infobox montages should be quite small (no more than 3x3 images), and I agree there are many excessive examples out there, but I don't see a good case for banning them completely. I don't see what you find so objectionable about the Maori montage, either. --Avenue (talk) 00:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. While the issue is a fairly low one in terms of importance IMHO, I think that Athenean hit it squarely on the head. Nom's view of what is "obsessive" is perhaps a needless personal attack (and I suggest that nobody question whether he is being obsessive in his attacking what he views as obsessive, as this would be needlessly following down a perhaps irrelevant avenue of inquiry), but once we get back that (as it should not impact peoples' views either way on the substance), I fail to see anything that supports his view that something "needs to be done". Something "needs to be done" about global warming and various other issues, but nothing in what nom says suggests to me that something "needs to be done" here. I agree with all that Athenean says, including the positives about such montages. Nom could perhaps consider being a contributor to the project by adding pictures he believes appropriate to such montages. I for one would welcome his contributions.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the problems described are not intrinsecal to the topic. What if all the people included are mentioned in the article, and their influence within the group is properly explained and referenced? MBelgrano (talk) 21:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It is clearly insufficient that people are "mentioned in the article", even with references. To be 'representatives' of an ethnicity, it will at minimum be necessary to show that (a) the 'ethnicity' itself exists, and isn't a synthesis, or a construct of a minority POV, (b) the persons concerned actually are of that ethnicity, and recognise themselves as such, and (c) a reliable source can be found that states that they are notable as members of the ethnic group. If a Wikipedia contributor 'selects' individuals as somehow representatives of an ethnicity, this is WP:OR, and impermissible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What rubbish. We choose what to put in and what to leave out of articles, what examples to cite and what examples not to cite, what to illustrate and what not to illustrate, all the time. It's called editorial judgment, and it's an issue for editors to thrash out on talk pages. Jheald (talk) 00:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not where it contravenes policy, we don't. See WP:OR, WP:SYN, WP:BLPCAT etc... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:03, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(a) and (b) I would agree with you. (c) I wouldn't -- this is neither WP:OR nor WP:SYN, just an editorial choice of how to illustrate the topic at hand. Jheald (talk) 00:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, not rubbish at all. (a), (b), and (c) are all required per WP:NOR. The whole point of adding images to the infobox is to make the statement, "These people are notable examples of this ethnic group." If that weren't the case, the images would be placed elsewhere, not there. I also like how Andy points out that we should look out for whether "the 'ethnicity' itself exists, and isn't a synthesis, or a construct of a minority POV." Yugoslav American, Multiracial American, and People of the United States are all premium examples of this point being overlooked (Note how they all have infobox images). Bulldog123 02:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) It is unnecessary that the people are notable as members of the ethnic group, just as it is not necessary that images in the lead section of any article have been put forward externally as representative of that topic. See e.g. frog, sarong, flower. Some editorial judgment regarding images is both desirable and allowed as a specific exemption to WP:OR (i.e. WP:OI). Of course this can be abused, but that doesn't change the general principle. --Avenue (talk) 00:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, that doesn't contradict my point. I cited some general rules that should be met, you mentioned stronger ones, but the point is the same: they are not impossible to met. If an infobox with a collage follow all such rules, why shouldn't it be included? MBelgrano (talk) 00:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a good example of a bad montage. But why do we need to ban all infobox images to address the bad ones? --Avenue (talk) 00:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say the ratio of bad montages to "good" montages speaks for itself. In most cases a "good" montage only means it's not contested (yet). I get the feeling the image on Maori isn't being challenged because few Maori-interested users edit wikipedia and even fewer who know anything about the Maori people. The ethnic group is minuscule compared to most, so it's really not hard to find a handful of representatives. Compare that with something like Irish American or Italian American. It's clear that for the vast majority of ethnic group articles, this is an issue. Still, I don't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks. So we get to see what a few of these people look like... big deal. It doesn't contribute anything new or meaningful to the article. In most cases, the images are used only to make a statement. "Hey THIS guy is definitely a X even though some people think he's a Y. Let's put him in X's infobox to show everyone the truth." Not encyclopedic, IMO. Bulldog123 02:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In many cases, I'd agree. I just think that clear and well enforced guidelines would be a better solution than an over-broad ban. And okay, there may be fewer Maori people than Italian- or Irish Americans, but our Māori article gets more page views than either of those. It doesn't lack scrutiny. --Avenue (talk) 04:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Rarely sourced, often WP:BLP violations, edit-war magnets. Jayjg (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The proposal, as currently worded, would prohibit images like the one in the South Sea Islander infobox. This shows a group of labourers in an appropriate historical context. It is sourced, does not violate WP:BLP, and has not provoked an edit war since it was added in October 2008. I think showing it up front in the infobox makes the article better than placing it further down. Do we really want to prohibit this? --Avenue (talk) 03:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: In my view these images add valuable humanity and colour to these articles. Different ethnic groups do often have distinctive visual characteristics, which the article should in some way try to convey. These images give an idea of the diversity of appearance within the group, and, as a set, the diversity of mankind -- which IMO is a good thing. I appreciate that the choice of who to select can lead to spirited discussion, but I think we should be focussing on what is of value to our readers, rather than our own producer interests. The choice of showing one face or another generally isn't very significant to the end-user usefulness of the article, I think; but the act of showing somebody's faces does IMO add real value. Jheald (talk) 09:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Different ethnic groups do often have distinctive visual characteristics, which the article should in some way try to convey. It's worth mentioning though that I don't believe "visual characteristics" has ever been the sole factor used for considering who to put in an infobox montage, and I don't think it will ever be. This is especially true for something like Polish American versus German American, where "visual distinctiveness" is non-existent. In fact, you could say for the vast majority of European-originated ethnic groups, "visual distinctiveness" is negligible factor. Your argument seems to apply only to images like the South Sea Islander picture, which is not really part of the ban. It's the user-created montage that should not be allowed for WP:N, WP:NOR, and sometimes WP:POINT reasons. Bulldog123 19:05, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Polish Americans are pretty distinctive compared to say Somali people. Don't assume white Americans are necessarily the reference against which everything must be measured. No, of course "visual characteristics" is only one thing that these images serve. They can also communicate a diversity of well-known faces belonging to the group, or a diversity of people with interesting stories to find out about. All of that adds to the article. Jheald (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The South Sea Islander picture would certainly be covered by the proposed ban. We are !voting on the following: "I propose - simply- that we not include any images in the infoboxes... for any ethnic group." This does not just cover montages, even though most of the discussion here seems to focus on them. --Avenue (talk) 23:14, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose These graphics are informative and useful. They an excellent example of the informational power of pictures. They should not be banned - instead, any disputes about who should be included (OR or BLP issues, for example) should be resolved in the same way that any other dispute over content would be. There is no need to make new rules here. Further, the argument that the people represented must be "poster children" seems false to me. Thparkth (talk) 15:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose: As per Avenue. Joyson Noel Holla at me! 09:43, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Baby-bathwater problem, as often is on WP. All the problems identified by those who want to delete the mosaics can simply be solved by having strict guidelines on image inclusion (use only photos of persons with sources clearly indicating they belong to the group, ask for self-recognition for LP, limit the mosaic to, say, 9 or 12 pictures). The other opposers above made arguments for the positive contribution of the mosaics, which I endorse. --Cyclopiatalk 16:13, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Baby-bathwater. Some cases will be contentious, such as maybe Jews or African American, but those articles are already contentious. And although there may be objections that notable people have been excluded or unrepresentative people have been included, that's hardly something that can't be worked out on the talk page. Do we really need to remove Freud and Einstein from Jews and Obama and Oprah from African Americans just because there is no objective way of measuring how representative someone is? No encyclopedia is going to have a perfectly representative montage; why should we expect more of WP?
Also, many photos serve to illustrate ethnic dress, jewelry, hairstyles, tatoos, housing, livestock, etc. rather than specific people. Those would also be excluded by this ban. — kwami (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And why do the images about ethnic dress, jewelry, hairstyles, tattoos, housing, livestock, etc... have to be in the infobox and not elsewhere in the article? This last point is beginning to look like a red herring. The crux of the argument is for user-selected montages. To my knowledge, no published encyclopedia maintains such things. More importantly, can somebody clarify what the "baby" is in this baby-bathwater comparison we keep making? Bulldog123 04:51, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read the update? It's a "draconian" measure to proposal eliminating original research from infoboxes? Bulldog123 21:07, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose in favour of strict rules of image inclusion. I sympathise with editors having to deal with ongoing disputes (Norwegian Americans is a particularly awful case), but to mandate the removal of montages from every article is excessive, particularly those where the ethnicity of the subjects is easily verifiable. An effective alternative would be something along the lines of "montages containing images of subjects whose ethnicity cannot be verified will be removed on sight; a single image may be used as an alternative, provided that its relation to the ethnic group is verifiable". And I disagree that the subjects of montages must be collectively representative of the ethnic group: I think it's sufficient for them to be a collection of notable examples, provided there's at least some variety in the subjects chosen. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 22:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What would these rules for image inclusion be? And could we ever get community consensus for them? It seems like an impossible task. Bulldog123 08:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Responded in Alternative section below. – Liveste (talk • edits) 05:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't see the inclusion of a picture, or several, as an assertion that the individual/s shown are the best known, most typical or whatever members of a group, any more than say including paintings in an artist's bio is an assertion that these are their best or most typical work. There may be various problems with individual examples (yes the Norwigian-American one is too big) but a blanket ban is not the way to proceed. Johnbod (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wouldn't including it in the infobox be making a different statement than merely having it in the article with a caption explaining it? The infobox is meant to be "indicative of a group" -- that's why it exists. Bulldog123 00:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily; we have to go with the best pics we have all the time here. But it might. Johnbod (talk) 02:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I had hoped that "best pic" (aesthetically speaking) would have trumped any and all other concerns, in a discussion with which I was involved. In other words, rather than arguing whether this sub-group or that was over- or underrepresented, why not simply select the best photograph regardless of the subject? Of course, that's entirely subjective as well, but at least it's "neutral" compared with the other criteria. (In any case this idea was rejected. FWIW.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:03, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - it's too often arbitrary and capricious, and efforts to make it otherwise are unduely distracting from the improvement to the body of the articles. Perhaps there is something elemental about images of people, but the effort that goes in to including - or REMOVING - these pictures on these articles is too often bitter and contentious that it would seem better to can the whole idea of montages there. Notable examples placed in the body of the article that comply with Wiki standards can always include a portrait. Shoreranger (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

General Comments

I think is a good idea...but is this even a proposal that a WikiProject can have and/or enforce? Would this talk not have to be done at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes)? Not sure its possible for one Wikiproject to tell our editors what they can and cant do if its not policy based as per WikiProjects do not own articles. Think this might lead to counts less edit wars if its not back by the community as a whole - rather then just one Wikiproject that our editors might think our pushing there POV on images on article within this projects scope. Lets face it "People articles" and "projects" overlap very very often. How would this be enforced would the projects members go around deleting images from articles even the FA and GA ones? This sound like it might cause lots of conflict if not done with policy rather then a projects POV that realy holds no weight.Moxy (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You raise a valid point. I think the answer is that no single discussion, be it here or at the MoS page you mention, can actually create a binding decision that could simply be "enforced". What we can do here – and this does seem to be the appropriate location for it – is to develop a recommendation, just like other recommendations a wikiproject might offer for articles in its scope. Implementing it will always be subject to the consensus principle on each individual page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:34, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see what your saying - but the wording must be right and not binding. As we have had some major problems with this before and has led to the isolation of some projects. The WP:POV pushing that comes to mind is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes were they tell our editors "only following consensus" may they add an infobox to articles in there scope. They have been told many many times that this is not within the power of a WikiProject to tell our editors what they can and cant do if its the opposite of our policy and/or if they cant get it passed as policy. This project has basically been left in the dust because of this with editors avoiding there articles on purpose. It has also led to "biting" of many many new editors that have tried to add the boxes. Will this happen here aswell and give the project a bad reputation? Like i said i think its a good idea no images just not something that i think will be enforceable if its not policy. Moxy (talk) 08:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think if anything the ethnic groups project would have somewhat of a weaker standing if it came to enforcing its preferences than the classical music project did. The classical music project actually represented a very substantial, active core of editors who were responsible for having written a large part of the articles in question, so they had every right to voice their consensus in a forceful fashion (I'd disagree with you about that, I guess.) With ethnic groups, membership and editorship is probably much more decentralized. Many, perhaps most, ethnic group articles are written and maintained by people who have no relation to this wikiproject at all, for instance because they are simply interested in this one ethnicity. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:22, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We may not be able to 'enforce' anything other than existing policy, but if that is done properly, it will at least deal with the most problematic examples. For a start, any image that doesn't have WP:RS on ethnicity can go, and likewise, copyvios need removal. The only remaining issue is whether the creation of an 'ethnic montage' is OR. I'm inclined to suggest that under existing policy, it may well be. It occurs to me that one could prove this by creating a (hypothetical) montage to demonstrate why. For white British (which includes me, not that I'd classify myself that way) I'll produce a montage consisting of Ian Brady, Myra Hindley, Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman, Dennis Nilsen... Obviously biased, but if anyone complains, I'll ask how a non-biased montage could be made. Pick people at random perhaps? If a montage of 'bad guys' is wrong, isn't a montage of 'good guys' as well? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me the issue there is more one of WP:ATTACK rather than WP:OR. Selection of what examples to illustrate a topic with is a normal part of wiki-editing. (In the context of mathematical/scientific articles WP:SCG even spells this out). What is not acceptable is attack images being used to tar the perception of a particular group. Jheald (talk) 13:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but what criteria are being used to make the selection? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:49, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do we care? Jheald (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If someone doesn't care what criteria are used to select images, frankly I'd say that they shouldn't be involved in contributing to Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jheald said "Do we care?" (i.e. "is that relevant?"), not "I don't care." --Avenue (talk) 21:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment So there seems to be some confusion with the term "poster child," as a lot of opposers here are making statements, "I don't believe this to be true." I think Andy probably summed it up a lot better when he wrote, "(c) a reliable source [must] be found that states that they are notable 'as members of the ethnic group'." This is a very basic WP:NOTABILITY requirement and without it, the selection of people to put in an infobox montage is, unquestionably, unarguably, original research by the editors creating the montage. Hopefully this clears that up. Bulldog123 18:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid this is quite wrong. It is not necessary for a person to be notably a member of the group; it is only necessary for them to be verifiably a member of the group. This is a very important distinction. It is being verifiable that defends something against charges of being OR, not being notable. WP:NOTABILITY has little to do with the content of articles anyway.
Furthermore, it's not even necessary for a reliable source to be provided to show, for instance, that Pope is German. It is merely enough that such a source could be provided if someone were to challenge it. This is the essence of WP:V.
Thparkth (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality: "When in doubt, err on the side of respect and the right of people to define themselves", "Inclusion must be justifiable by external references. (For example: regardless of whether you have personal knowledge of a notable individual's sexual orientation, they should only be filed in a LGBT-related category after verifiable, reliable sources have been provided in the article that support the assertion.)" I'd call that strong grounds to suggest that unsourced inclusion in an 'ethnicity' infobox is against the spirit of policy. In any case, if the infobox is challenged, then sources must be provided that demonstrate that the person involved self-identifies with the ethnicity attributed to them - the "right of people to define themselves". AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:27, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline you refer to relates to the inclusion of people in categories. It is not particularly applicable here. Even so, I doubt that there is strong consensus behind the idea that describing Queen Elizabeth II as "English" may only be done "after verifiable, reliable sources have been provided in the article that support the assertion". Of course it should be verifiable but that is not the same thing. Thparkth (talk) 21:37, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Thparkth was primarily rebutting the claim that people should be notable as members of the ethnic group to appear in an infobox. None of Andy's points address that issue. Nice change of subject though. --Avenue (talk) 21:51, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Thparkth may be confusing nationality with ethnicity. As for the issue regarding 'notability', if that isn't a criteria for inclusion in an 'ethnic' infobox montage, then what criteria should be applied? Simply leaving it to 'editorial choice' isn't an answer - on what basis should the choice be made? There are quite sufficient examples already given to demonstrate that leaving this to an individual can result in controversy, and regardless of the niceties of which policy applies where, unsourced inclusion of an individual in an 'ethnicity' infobox is making an assertion about them that may be unjustified, and possibly contentious. It isn't Wikipedia's job to apply arbitrary labels to individuals on the whim of editors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think anyone has suggested that notability isn't a criteria (one of many) that can be considered when selecting images for a montage. This is true both for general notability and for notability as a member of that ethnicity. What Thparkth and I object to is a requirement that notability as a member of that ethnic group is a necessary condition for inclusion. Some other general criteria have been mentioned already above: diversity, availability and quality of images, montage size, etc. --Avenue (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, it's not even necessary for a reliable source to be provided to show, for instance, that Pope is German Now I'm getting confused. The big issue here isn't whether the people actually are members of the ethnic group (though - in some cases - it would need verification), but whether they are notable as members of that ethnic group. I can give a pretty solid example. Henry James is a member of the Irish ethnic group - though it is unclear whether he ever identified - but it doesn't matter because external sources explicitly state that despite being "a full-blooded New York Celt," he is rarely identified as "Irish American" by scholars (for a multitude of complex reasons that I won't get into right now). Therefore having Henry James in the infobox image for Irish American would be OR on the part of the editor, because most external sources do not list him as a notable example of Irish-American-hood. Similarly, Bing Crosby actually doesn't have a pure-blood Irish background but is widely considered to be a "notable Irish American." We're not looking for whether "these people have Irish blood" but whether they are notable as members of their ethnic group. That's what the infobox image is stating. These are notable examples of Irish Americans. NOT Here are some random examples of people with Irish ancestry. Now replace "Irish American" with just about any other ethnic group. It eventually becomes an impossible task... and instead of wasting time with all that... why can't we just keep the montages elsewhere (or not have them)? Bulldog123 00:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"whether they are notable as members of that ethnic group" - you keep saying this, but it really isn't true. It's simply not necessary, or normal, to establish separate notability for every item in the content of an article. If a reliable source describes someone as having a particular ethnicity, then it is not original research to include that in the article. (It might raise other issues but WP:OR is not one of them). Thparkth (talk) 00:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about anymore. Bulldog123 05:44, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think a better example of how problematic this can be would be Andrew Jackson, who can variously be described as American, White American, Scotch-Irish American, Irish American, Scottish American, Ulster Scot, or whatever. Which is/was he, and who gets to claim him? I'm for canning the whole idea of "poster children". Eastcote (talk) 04:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is very true, and more importantly, there is no evidence Andrew Jackson is notable as a member of any of those ethnic groups. Bulldog123 08:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, the move was reverted. --Avenue (talk) 01:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that an image gallery per-se is not a problem. It becomes so when there is an interest-in-disguise other than information. Perhaps we should nomenclate some "rules" for the future, comprising the considerations we are expressing. I suggest that only general ethnic groups' articles carry an infobox gallery (i.e. Italians, French people, Greeks, Australian people, Argentine people etc. ...) but specific (Maoris) or hyphenated ones (Norwegian-Americans, Greek-Americans, White-Argentine, Greek-Cypriots) do not, since they can be absorved by the main respective articles (New Zealanders, Norwegians, Americans -meaning people of the United States-, Argentines, Cypriots etc..) The confection of the gallery itself should be made obviously by consensus, showing good will and taking into consideration the copyright and image issues. Regarding the discussion in the Greeks article talk page I see a pretty much "The Fox and the Grapes spirit" among the present detractors.Periptero (talk) 15:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For the benefit of anyone who is still unclear about how problematic this issue can be, look here [1]. It seems impossible to persuade editors that you can't just dump random people into an infobox montage with no evidence of their ethnicity at all. I'll assume they are all Argentinian, though that isn't sourced, but 'white'? Who says so? Given that the article doesn't actually provide evidence that the term 'white Argentine' (or any reasonable translation thereof) is used in Argentina, the whole thing is nothing but WP:OR of the worst sort. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it is OR, then it is already prohibited by the existing policy against OR. Why do we need an extra rule? Thparkth (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because people are ignoring it. That's why the images on White Americans are being returned despite not having a single source. Bulldog123 06:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should follow the usual procedures to have WP:OR enforced, instead of entertaining the idea of new and overly restrictive rules. I think excessive prohibitions are even more likely to be ignored. --Avenue (talk) 13:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We've been trying to do that for years. It's clearly not working. Something new has to happen. If the overall removal of montages isn't supported, then something else needs to be proposed. I felt like just having a blanket ban would be easiest because "specific rules" confuse people more (especially new editors). Bulldog123 23:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the Argentina's particular case expressed above, I think that labelling people as white Argentines is useless since except from racist slurs and small racialist environments there is not such division in todays' Argentine society. Being a 'white' (blanco) or a 'black' (negro)-comprising indigenous, mestizos and zambos- has become a cultural term rather than a racial one. Pale skinned Argentines but with a high academical or economic position may deem as "negros" to other fair skinned Argentines who in fact live a marginal life.- Periptero (talk) 18:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Alternatives

I want to remind everyone that this is an RfC not just a "vote-and-dash." I doubt any of the supporters are exclusive to the "blanket ban" idea, so if you oppose it, please suggest an alternative. Right now the "infobox montage" is sucking up a lot of people's time and adding a lot of OR to this encyclopedia. If you have another idea, perhaps for specific guidelines on how to manage an infobox montage so that it's not OR, propose it. Bulldog123 07:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. A lack of participation seems to be a large obstacle to progress in your disputes (although the same can't be said for this discussion). Having opposed a blanket ban on montages above, I'll make a start for an alternative proposal. Hopefully it can reduce instances of OR in infobox images without detracting from articles that do not contravene this policy.
The infobox may contain one or more images, but there are strict requirements regarding their inclusion. These requirements are aimed at eliminating original research in infoboxes, while allowing the use of images where it does not conflict with existing policies.
A single image relevant to the ethnic group may be used as long as its relevance is uncontroversial and verifiable. Alternatively, some infoboxes contain montages of people who are members of the ethnic group. The compilation and use of montages in the infobox has been the subject of much contention in the past, particularly regarding the inclusion of some people whose relation to the ethnic group is contentious. If a montage is used, it should be the result of consensus established on the article's talk page. All images in a montage must be of people whose relevance as members of the ethnic group is notable (widely acknowledged and substantial, beyond mere in-passing descriptions), verifiable in reliable sources, and uncontroversial.
Images included in an infobox that do not meet these requirements should be deleted on sight as potentially original research. They should not be reincluded until it is demonstrated that the relevant requirements above have been met.
Feel free to comment on the general idea behind this alternative proposal and/or the specific wording. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 05:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Village Pump

AndyTheGrump has started another discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Ethnic_over-classification that I think editors at this project might be able to help resolve. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:38, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiproject Indigenous peoples of the Americas

Hi! I'm proposing the development of a new Wikiproject for indigenous peoples of all of the Americas, from ancient times to present at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Indigenous peoples of the Americas, which would be a descendant wikiproject of WP Ethnic groups. This would tackle indigenous articles in the scope of the Americas and coordinate areas not looked at by WP:WikiProject Mesoamerica and WP:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America. If you have any interest in this group or thoughts, please feel free to commment on the proposal. Thanks, -Uyvsdi (talk) 02:21, 8 February 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Ethnicity, percentages and numbers across Wikipedia articles

From article "Ethnic group"

An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.

Ethnicity in European countries

If you don't want to read the whole text, the issue is simply that the sourced figures given for the members of each group in many European countries and related ethnic group is equating citizenship to ethnicity. This is an issue of the WikiProject Ethnic groups articles and for the section Ethnicity in the information boxes of many European countries. Is a person with African ancestry from European country X an ethnic X or an X citizen? What is an ethnic X? Does this country keep statistics on how many people of each ethnic group X, Y and Z there are? Most European countries don't keep track of this, that doesn't mean that the number of citizens should be put there as a substitute. Many people use Wikipedia for reference and this is misleading.

Germany

If we look at Germany for example we can see that it says:

91.5% German, 2.4% Turkish, 6.1% other

The problem is that if we take racial, cultural and religious grounds, in that 91.5% there is a significant part who is actually Turkish. A group of naturalized Turkish people in Germany will identify more with Turkish people in Turkey than Germans with European ancestry, even if this weren't true for each individual, the percentages for Ethnicity is not real since the country doesn't keep track of it.

Looking at this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany#Demographics one can see that the figures in the section Ethnicity of the article Germany in fact refer to citizenship.

Germany has been accepting immigrants since the 1960s, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law one can see that it doesn't take much to become a German citizen. During the past few decades many different ethnic groups have been arriving to Germany, they and their descendants have obtained citizenship. Therefore one can't equate citizenship to ethnicity but this is what is done across many articles. Unless according to Wikipedia's definition of ethnicity a person who has just acquired German citizenship immediately becomes an ethnic German.

Spain

87.8% Spanish, 12.2% other (Romanian, Moroccan, Germans, Ecuadorian, British) (2010) See discussion page.

Sweden

81.9% Swedes[1][d] ~5% Finns[2] ~13% other (2009)[3][4]

d. ^ As of 2008, 18% of the population had foreign origins (13% if excluding Finns and 9% if also excluding other Scandinavians), with 14% foreign-born and another 4% born in Sweden of two foreign-born parents.[11]

Clarified in small print but very misleading, after all the section is called Ethnic Groups. The article Swedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes) refers to the ethnic group but the figure provided is for citizens.

Italy

The article Italians is about the Italian ethnic group. Even though in the article Italy it doesn't have an ethnicity section in the infobox, it says this about the percentage of immigrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy#Migration): "These figures include more than half a million children born in Italy to foreign nationals—second generation immigrants are becoming an important element in the demographic picture—but exclude foreign nationals who have subsequently acquired Italian nationality; this applied to 53,696 people in 2008 "

All the ones that have acquired Italian nationality in previous years are being excluded as well from the 7.1% figure on which the number in the article Italians is based.

Portugal

96.87% Portuguese and 3.13% legal immigrants (Cape Verdeans, Brazilians, Ukrainians, Angolans, etc.) (2007)

Same problem as before, Portugal doesn't keep track of ethnicity and that refers to citizens with Portuguese nationality. Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_nationality_law and considering when immigration to Portugal started, that figure probably isn't right. At best it's a good guess.

Netherlands

In the article Dutch people it says there are 15,186,600 ethnic Dutch in the Netherlands without citation. Yet in the article Netherlands it cites an estimation from the CIA factbook that there are 80% Dutch people from a population of 16,648,800 which would be 13,319,040.

More articles are affected by this issue. I suggest a huge revision and for starters a removal of the figures for countries that don't keep track of this.

Inconsistency

There is also an inconsistency across articles about the peoples of each country.

Swedish people (redirects to Swedes): about Swedes of Swedish ancestry

French people : it states that it's about French people regardless of ancestry (yet with the WikiProject Ethnic groups logo)

German people (redirects to Germans): it states that it's about Germans regardless of ancestry (yet with the WikiProject Ethnic groups logo)

Italian people : about Italians of Italian ancestry

and so on.

Question

What does ethnicity mean for Wikipedia? Do people belonging to the same ethnic group need to share ancestry? (Depending on the answer, the WikiProject Ethnic Group logo may need to be removed from many articles who talk about citizens of each country. Also it should be clarified in each article that it refers to people regardless of ancestry, if that's the definition. The definition of ethnic group can't vary from article to article)

--Grondolf (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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