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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TriiipleThreat (talk | contribs) at 02:35, 28 July 2011 (→Disney vs Paramount: c). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Sandbox for the Avengers film

This is just a notice that Fandraltastic and I have created a userspace draft for this film and that anybody who wishes to contribute may do so. --TriiipleThreat (talk) 21:08, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

Until the start of priniciple photography this article fails notability guidelines for future films. As those guidlines state and is in the case for this film the media coverage and likelihood of a high-profile release does not guarantee that it will be immuned from setbacks.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, but this meets the GNG by itself, based on the RS coverage, so failing NFF doesn't mean it can't have its own article. Since the redirect is contested, feel free to start an AfD on the topic, and I'll be happy to abide by the community consensus on the matter. Jclemens (talk) 18:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
AfD not required for redirects. This happens with almost every major release media coverage is not enough. There is nothing exceptional about the coverage of this film that NFF should be overidden. --TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
AfD is an appropriate stop for a disputed redirect, and I've taken this there. NFF is a SNG, which does not override the GNG. I'm sure you're correct that there may be plenty of such coverage for other major releases, but I disagree with the forced redirect, in that it directly contravenes the GNG. We agree that there's plenty of RS coverage and that principal photography has not yet started; we disagree whether NFF takes precedence over the GNG. Jclemens (talk) 18:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it or Wait for it

I would leave the page instead of wait for the film come out. Lg16spears (talk) 04:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

categorization

Other film projects are categorized into film categories, so what's wrong with doing it here? 76.66.193.119 (talk) 13:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you referring to other films, this is a non-film as it has yet to enter production.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We have an entire category of films in various states of non-production Category:Unfinished films. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 14:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bit different. Unfinished films are films that have started production but have for various reason never been completed, upcoming films are films that are currently in production and unreleased films are films that have completed production but have not been released.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several articles in the category have not entered production, like Sprockets, which didn't even get to the screenplay stage, or Concentrate (screenplay) that never entered production. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe those are probably incorrectly categorized.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We have a guideline at WP:NFF where we would usually merge details of a project to a broader article. However, this article is essentially being treated as a sub-topic due to the level of detail. That is why it is not formatted as a film article, being without the infobox, for example. The categories are for films only, and films are usually "almost certain to take place" when they start filming. At this point, this is just a project that is not guaranteed, and there needs to be a distinction between films and plans for ones. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like there should be a Category:Proposed films then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.66.193.119 (talk • contribs) 10:09, August 2, 2010
This article is a rare example of being on its own, and we would not have enough non-film articles to populate such a category. It would be better to add more high-level categories. I'll take a stab at it. Erik (talk | contribs) 14:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind we are working without much precedent here so try to bare with us. As Erik stated a few more generic categories might serve for the time being.--TriiipleThreat (talk)
The categories he added look good. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 14:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! We can include film-related categories if filming does begin. We've seen too many planned films, even for major franchises, just never take off despite all the excitement (Jurassic Park IV, as one example). Erik (talk | contribs) 14:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rename?

Can we at least rename this page something like "The Avengers (2012 film)"? That sounds like a more official page title than "The Avengers film project." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.116.4.185 (talk) 04:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article was at The Avengers (2012 film) before, but it was moved here because we rarely have stand-alone articles about films that have not even started production. This is more an article about recent history than an article about an upcoming film. If production does not happen, then we would continue treating this as history. If filming does happen, we will change the format to that of a film article. That's why the current article does not use a film infobox nor film-related categories. If filming starts, we can move it back to the original title. Erik (talk | contribs) 04:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It may be about recent history, but nevertheless the recent history of a film. There are dozens of articles on wikipedia about films in development, so why does this one have to be different? --Boycool42 (talk) 13:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is that there is no film actually being made. The dozens of articles about upcoming films are those that have already begun filming and are on their way to being released. We use the start of filming as a threshold because until filming starts, anything can happen to delay the project. For example, Jurassic Park IV has been in development hell forever. Films like Shantaram (film), Ant-Man (film), and Spider-Man 4 have been planned for a while, but nothing actually happens. (All these are sections in broader articles as part of the pre-filming threshold.) The recent Batman and Superman films had various unsuccessful projects before them for years. Here, we're trying to avoid the "(2012 film)" label because it's still just plans that may not be realized by 2012. No one has directed, no one has performed, etc. If filming begins, we know with pretty strong certainty that there will be something tangible, and we can restore the original article title. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Almost none of the films in Category:Upcoming films have reached production. Guess what! None of their articles are titled "The ________ film project". Double standard? --Boycool42 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFF.-5- (talk) 08:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I get that. But this is like titling the Obama article as "John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt"!--Boycool42 (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NFF and WP:CRYSTAL since there is no film, there can be no film article. However there are enough reliable sources on the development of this project to statisfy WP:GNG on that topic alone. That is why article is named what it is and there are none of the usual film identifiers.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Boycool, I used to complete a lot of tasks for the future films department of WikiProject Film, making sure such articles were merged or deleted where applicable. I was away for a while, so there might have been some backsliding. I'll review the articles in that category to see if they stand up to scrutiny. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General Ross

Is General Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross scheduled to appear? If so, will he be portrayed by William Hurt? --Boycool42 (talk) 14:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Doubtful, as his page doesn't list it. --98.247.142.237 (talk) 13:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image use of File:The Avengers 2012 logo.jpg

I am not sure about the use of this non-free image without an infobox and would like a second opinion on the matter.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although we aren't yet including an infobox (because "it's not a film"), the image does emphasize points in this article on "recent history". But, I could be biased. --Boycool42 (talk) 21:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming we have a good FUR and are simply using one relevant FU image, I don't see what the problem is: if you could use once it with an infobox, does the lack of an infobox invalidate the informational/identity component of FU? Jclemens (talk) 21:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are too many. More space is devoted to navboxes than content. Surely the 'Joss Whedon', 'Marvel Comics films', and 'Avengers' boxes cover it without the 'Captain America', 'Iron Man', 'Thor', 'Hulk', 'Hawkeye', 'Black Widow', and 'S.H.I.E.L.D.' boxes needing to be tacked on? - Tanetris (talk) 21:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The boxes themselves are shelled propperly so taking up too much space is not an issue. The main character boxes are supplied for readers navigating through articles on that particular character. However we could do without Black Widow, Hawkeye and Shield as they are in a supporting capacity. On a side note the Black Widow box is currently being discussed for deletion.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would certainly be a help. I still don't see the necessity of navboxes for each main character either, though. Most of the links in each box are not related to this film project, and the ones that are are already in the Avengers navbox or the Marvel Films navbox. If someone wants to explore a particular character more in-depth, the Avengers navbox contains links to each one's main page, and it's easy enough to go from there. If someone's coming here from another page related to one of the characters and wants to go back, not to put too fine a point on it but most browsers do include a back button. - Tanetris (talk) 01:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The links in the navboxes do not have to be about this film project but rather subject of each navbox. The Avengers box is for the team as whole while the character boxes are for each specifically, so someone reading about The Hulk can come here from the Doc Samson article then go directly to the Leader article without having to go back or elsewhere (which is the point of navboxes). Is there some overlap? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 02:20, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MCU

Can The Avengers be listed in the "followed by" section on the other MCU films' articles?? In each respective series (Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Thor, and Captain America), this is the next sequel. It isn't uncommon to do this for crossovers (see Freddy vs. Jason). --Boycool42 (talk) 11:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Being in the same universe does not automatically make it a direct sequel even though the films might share characters and plot elements. That being the case if you are going to label this is a sequel it needs to be expletively stated by a reliable source. For instance how do you know the next direct chapter of the Iron Man franchise is The Avengers not Iron Man 3?--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jon Favreau has said so on numerous occasions that have mysteriously been removed from wikipedia. --Boycool42 (talk) 19:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide find them and pay close attention to what wording is used. Favreau has already stated in numerous sources that he intends to make the Iron Man franchise into a trilogy consisting of a third Iron Man film (Iron Man 2#Sequel already states as such). The Avengers for all we know might be more of a spiritual successor or companion piece to these films and not a true sequel meaning that it follows the events of the earlier works but does not directly build upon the plot lines therein (though it might have indirect consequences). Also be aware of the can of worms that is will no doubtly open, for instance is Captain America: The First Avenger the direct prequel to everything, is The Incredible Hulk the direct sequel to Iron Man and the sequel or Side story to Iron Man 2.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. --Boycool42 (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Filming

Has anyone announced when production starts? --Boycool (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ruffalo replacing Norton

I have to agree with Oknazevad's edit here. We do not need to note agencies unless there was an event that required explicit identification of them. Otherwise, it is assumed that actors land roles through agents or agencies. Without any real context, such as strife between agencies, the mention of the one agency does sound like a press release. I would prefer for it to be removed. Erik (talk | contribs) 15:11, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe its a wording issue, but to me it offers insight into the process. Without it seems there was nothing more than Marvel offering him the part and he accepted. Personally I think naming the agency is also irrelevant but its does give the since that there was some negotiations and back and forth taking place since a deal was "reached".--15:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I think naming the agency seems unnatural. What about "Ruffalo's agency"? Like I said, unless there was a specific reason to identify the agency, such as an event, we're not compelled to identify it. I've referenced a lot of Variety and The Hollywood Reporter references, and they go on and on about agents and agencies because that's the nature of the business. It's less relevant for this film article and probably more relevant at the actor's article (as some change agencies throughout their career). Erik (talk | contribs) 15:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, done.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 16:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reform

I believe it's time to add an info box and set the page up like a regular Wikipedia film article. Any thoughts? Rusted AutoParts (talk) 9:17 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Per previous consensus and WP:NFF that time will be if and when the film starts principle photography.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about not changing it yet. Filming is supposed to begin in four months, which is still a long way off. Once filming begins, it's an indicator of all resources invested in it. It's far more likely for a film to be made once it has actually started filming. Before then, it's indefinite. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We could at least rename it to The Avengers (2012 film). Rusted AutoParts (talk) 15:21 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Again per previous consensus and WP:NFF once the film starts principle photography there is a higher likelihood that film will be completed and released on the projected date and thus less intrusive on WP:CRYSTAL. As WP:NFF states there is no "sure thing" production. Until then remember there is no deadline.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree. We have to remember that we cannot declare this topic as a definite film. Justice League collapsed even though there was a cast ready to go. When filming does begin, it's near-certain that the film will be completed. Before then, we err on the side of caution. Erik (talk | contribs) 19:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Citing The Hollywood Reporter

As can be seen by the "dead link" tags in this article's footnotes for The Hollywood Reporter, it's crucial that we add a WebCitation or some other archive link for Hollywood Reporter citations since they're only available to the general public at the original URL for a limited time. They then go into a subscriber archive with a different URL and may or may not be searchable. (You know how internal search engines are.)

An archive link is a snapshot of the page as it appears that day. If the URL changes or the article goes away, the cited information remains available. It doesn't seem useful to have "dead link" appear after every Hollywood Reporter cite a month or two after we give it.

Using http://webcitation.org takes less than 60 seconds once you've done it a couple of times. If we believe in Wikipedia as a lasting source of information and not a news site for the latest on this Marvel movie or that, it's critical that we archive our citations. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:53, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Hill

The Variety article that reports that Cobie Smulders has been cast does not name Maria Hill as the character. However this earlier Deadline article does name Hill when Smulders was considered the front runner for the role but only with speculative terms such as "I'm hearing that" with no mention of from who the author is hearing. Is this enough to state Smulders is playing Maria Hill or should we continue to wait for something more concrete?--TriiipleThreat (talk) 04:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be noted that The Hollywood Reporter, another source being cited by the blogosphere does not name the role either.--TriiipleThreat 13:14, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is fine to leave out the name until we get confirmation. The character Maria Hill is not notable enough for her own article, and I think that defining her role as a SHIELD agent is enough for now. Erik (talk | contribs) 16:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thats fine but for clarification she does have her own article, Maria Hill.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would say:

On February 7, 2011, The Hollywood Reporter said [Cobie Smulders]] was in final negotiations to play "a key member of the espionage agency S.H.I.E.L.D.",[1] for which the trade magazine had previously said Morena Baccarin would be screen-testing.[2] In a talk-show interview on February 2, Jackson had described the role as that of his "sidekick".[2]

That's pretty much what the two articles say concretely; the latter articles includes a vague "also said to be vying for the part," without saying who's saying it. Hope this helps. P.S. Remember, for The Hollywood Reporter citations, we need to use WebCitation.org or some other archive, since THR links go away in a week or two. --Tenebrae 17:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Footnote 1 title etc. here
  2. ^ a b Footnote 2 title etc. here
What about the inclusion of the character name, Maria Hill?--TriiipleThreat (talk) 17:21, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see it given anywhere in those sources. It's possible they're making her blond and casting her as Sharon Carter — actresses change hair color all the time, and Sharon Carter would provide a love interest for modern-day Captain America — and it's also possible the character may end up named Maria Perez or Maria Cohen etc. for diversity reasons. It's also possible they may change the name to Sharon Hill to combine characters. Or it's possible they may not like the name Maria and change it to Paula Hill or some such, like the 1970s Hulk series changed Bruce Banner to David Banner. Anything can happen between now and production. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re: the budding edit war, with two editors both reverting [User:Rusted AutoParts]] on this issue, I've left a note at User talk:Rusted AutoParts. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How is this for compromise:

Smulders, whom Joss Whedon once considered for his unproduced live-action Wonder Woman film, was selected from a short list of potential actresses that reportedly included Morena Baccarin, Mary Elizabeth Winstead and Jessica Lucas.

--TriiipleThreat (talk) 17:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, "reportedly" is considered a weasel word, the idea being that we're either including something concrete and verifiable in the encyclopedia or we're not, and that we shouldn't equivocate. I'm just not sure at this point what [User:Rusted AutoParts]]'s overdetermination is — we're not a news source here to report every rumor. -- Tenebrae (talk) 17:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, I was afraid of that. Should we also remove the contested names from the Pre-production section?--TriiipleThreat (talk) 17:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't noticed contested names there, but yeah, we really shouldn't include anything not reliably confirmed. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:49, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I added Winstead and Lucas because Jackson confirmed they screentested. I provided a source confirming this. But are you just gonna keep reverting my edit to keep it to your liking? It gets frustrating when i added sourced material and you claim it's from another source that said reportedly. Honestly, i think this is how children act. You want it the way you want it so you remove all material not added by you. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 13:58 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Its called thorough editing. Tenebrae has already explained this to you but I'll deconstruct these points again. Jackson did not confirm that anybody screen-tested, in his interview he did not mention any names. Infact the interview took place before the screen tests were held. The source you posted specifically reads, "We got the news via Collider". Collider reads "Heat Vision reports that actresses screen-testing for the role include Morena Baccarin (V), Jessica Lucas (Cloverfield), Cobie Smulders (How I Met Your Mother), and Mary Elizabeth Winstead (Scott Pilgrim vs. The World)". However Heat Vision only states, "V star Morena Baccarin is on that list", the rest are just "said" to be vying for the part. Grabbing headlines is only half of citing sources, the rest is tracing back to the original report and understanding the language that is actually used.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cobie Smulders is MARIA HILL!

HOW MANY SOURCES DO YOU NEED TO BACK-UP WHAT EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOWS!?

THERE, PROOF THAT SHE'S PLAYING MARIA HILL IN THE AVENGERS, NOW STOP CENSORING EVERY GOD DAMN MENTION OF MARIA HILL! I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOU CLOWNS DENYING IT'S MARIA HILL BECAUSE YOUR MAD AND WANTED SOMEONE ELSE LIKE SHARON CARTER. IT'S FRACKING MARIA HILL, DEAL WITH IT AND LET US CONFIRM IT FOR EVERYONE ELSE ON WIKIPEDIA!!!! WolfRisingSun (talk) 19:45, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa calm down there buddy, nobody is denying anything, we all share the common interest of fact checking before anything is added. In response to the sources you cited, the first five all cite the same Variety article that makes no mention of the name Maria Hill. You might have something there with the Fusedfilm.com article, as it doesn't cite any article. If Fusedfilm.com checks out to be a WP:RS, I'm sure nobody will be against adding the info.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that all the references go back to Variety. It seems very likely that Maria Hill is her role, but there is no need to rush and mention it. If it is true, it will be outright confirmed in the near future. Filming has not even begun, so we have a lot of time here. Wikipedia is the tortoise here, slow and steady with its article development and content verification. Erik (talk | contribs) 20:10, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What say you about the fusedfilm.com article?--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is referencing the Variety (or The Hollywood Reporter) without mentioning it, which can happen. The website's credentials don't seem to indicate that it knows more than the other sources listed above. Erik (talk | contribs) 20:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. The statement, "The actress is now said to be signing a nine-movie deal for future projects.", does indicate that they are citing somebody else, and Variety mentions the same deal in their article.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, guys. Work deadlines were tight today. I haven't had time to look too closely at fusedfilm.com, but I can tell you this: By using the WP:WEASEL passive voice "Now it is confirmed..." without saying "So-and-so confirmed....", it's not saying anything. We can't definitively state it's Maria Hill based on a vague and unattributed assertion. (And besides, I've heard she's playing Sharon Carter....!) --Tenebrae (talk) 02:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We could put it as "But it is widely believed that the character is Maria Hill or Sharon Carter". Or would would this qualify for WP:WEASEL?

Rusted AutoParts (talk) 16:15 14 February 2011 (UTC)

As Erik stated we can afford to wait till we get an official confirmation. Remember there is no deadline.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Stark's Hulk Cameo

Wouldn't his cameo in The Incredible Hulk count towards the amount of Marvel films Downey Jr. has been in? Should there be a mention of this? Rusted AutoParts (talk) 21:31 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Who knows? The cited source only mentions IM2 and The Avengers.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Avengers (film project) → The Avengers (2012 film) — As filming has begun, it is time for the page to be recreated as a film article rather than an article about a potential film. Fandraltastic (talk) 12:16, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
Oh - and what's with these "Survey/Discussion" things? Isn't it all discussion? Makes it seem like a straight poll. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Don Cheadle

I thought Don Cheadle was appearing as War Machine. Is this not yet confirmed or did he quit? Rusted AutoParts (talk) 10:46 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Don Cheadle's nonappearance is covered in the article.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jane Foster

See Talk:Marvel Cinematic Universe#Natalie Portman as Jane Foster in The Avengers.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 22:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Badassdigest

An editor who reverted my removing of this source, which misread a Zak Penn interview with Collider, said Baddassdigest is a reliable source and does original reporting.

Here is what Badassdigest itself wrote. Boldface added:

This is not really a news story, but I feel compelled to run it anyway, just to clear some things up. Late last week Zak Penn – good guy, director of some really funny mockumentary films, and one-time writer of The Avengers – did a little bit of press for his new TV show Alphas. Of course The Avengers came up, and Zak was a little vague when discussing it, citing an NDA (you can read all of his comments here). [link to the Collider page, which did an original interview with Penn, which Baddassdigest did not]

At minimum, we should link to the original source of a claim — not to some site taking another person's reporting. Secondly, if you read the Collider interview, Zak Penn never says he didn't do writing on The Avengers script — just the opposite. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:10, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But the article goes on to present information which is original reporting, that Zak Penn's entire draft was dropped and Joss Whedon rewrote the script from scratch. It is not a misreading of Collider's information, but rather a clarification and expansion upon the interview Collider conducted. -Fandraltastic (talk) 22:19, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hold on. Let me reread it.--Tenebrae (talk) 22:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK. What I read is Devin Faraci stating, "Zak Penn is not credited on The Avengers. The only name on the script is Joss Whedon, who did a page one rewrite."
How does he know this? He doesn't say. Where did he see the script that's being locked down so tightly that Zak Penn can't talk about it? Did he see the absolute final version of the script?
What he states contradicts what Zak Penn indicates in the interview. His claim is just not reliably sourced, and honestly, Badassdigest.com is not Variety or The Hollywood Reporter, who would never make such a claim without offering proof of having seen the final draft.
To our brethren editors: What do others of you have to say on this? --Tenebrae (talk) 22:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
THR and Variety tend to never source their claims either. The source of the claims for the trades are those intimately involved with the project. Agents or producers or the scripts themselves. Why are you holding Badassdigest.com to a higher standard? Devin Faraci has been involved in the film community for at least a decade and I've never seen its RS status questioned until now. -Fandraltastic (talk) 22:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
THR and Variety actually do source their claims, even if it's a blind source. Faraci, with no attribution, makes a huge, remarkable claim that, if true, would be important movie news reported in all the major trades, yet it's not. The policy is, exceptional claims require exceptional sources.
We've each said our piece. Let's let other editors weigh in. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:42, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest we wait until the film credits are released. It could be that Penn is credited as a story writer and not on the screenplay itself.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:58, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Black Widow

Marvel's recent official press release announcing the start of principal photography and the cast list has Scarlett Johansson's Natasha Romanoff character specifically listed as Black Widow. Is her not being referred to as Black Widow in an entirely different film really reason enough to exclude her code name from this film's page? -Fandraltastic (talk) 14:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You bring up a reasonable point. My take is that historically, Marvel tends to do that: I think it's even referred to Obadiah Stane as Iron Monger in some old press releases and in merchandising. I would say that for an encyclopedia, which optimally has unimpeachable facts, there's still a grey area here since we don't know what the filmmakers themselves — the only real authority — call her. We can certainly state what we do concretely know, that Marvel calls the character Black Widow though it is unknown if she is referred to as such in the movie, but that seems like a low-grade fact at this point. For an encyclopedia, as opposed to a news source, I think it's always better to wait until we are absolutely, 100 percent sure of something. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, Johansson was even referred to as Black Widow in the DVD extras and promotional materials for Iron Man 2, but the consensus in that article has been only to use what appears on film.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 15:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But as the film has not been released or even previewed yet wouldn't official press releases be the very best sources of information? Is it better to assume a codename is being excluded from the film itself than to go by what we are told? For instance, we have no clue if Clint Barton's Hawkeye codename will be specifically mentioned. But as it has been used in press releases and for promotion it is reasonable to include it in the article. I would think the same would apply to Black Widow. If the codenames are not included in the film itself, after release, would seem the best time to remove them from the cast list. -Fandraltastic (talk) 17:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Another good point, I think I might be inclined to agree with you. Perhaps we should get some more opinions.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hawkeye has never been in a Marvel movie, so the only thing to go by is the press release. Natasha Romanoff is the established name of the character in an existing film, so unless we have incontrovertible proof that her name has been changed, we can't assume that it has. Marvel has a history of using shorthand in its press releases that have not proven true onscreen. We know for a fact the character is named Natasha Romanoff, whether she gets a code name or not in the new film. We don't know absolutely that she'll be called Black Widow in the new film. An encyclopedia needs to go with what is absolutely known to be true, as best we can.
Rushing to put in something that is not definite for the sake of newsiness is not how Wikipedia works. There's Wikinews for that. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
These are all very good rationales, I think my head just exploded.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not an issue of rushing. This is an entirely new film, that she was never specifically referred to as "Black Widow" within a different film is not relevant to this article. As you say, all we can do is go with what we absolutely know to be true; at comic-con the character was referred to as Black Widow, in press releases the character has been referred to as Black Widow, in conjuncture with this film the character has never not been referred to as Black Widow. Until the film comes out and proves otherwise I'd heavily lean towards reflecting all of that rather than assuming otherwise.
But I believe we both have expressed our views, let's let others weigh in.-Fandraltastic (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you've commented thrice and I only twice, so to respond to the above: The films are all acknowledged as part of the same Marvel Cinematic Universe, which is different from completely separate, discrete films.
Re: "has never not been referred to as Black Widow": In debate and law, this is asking to other side to prove a negative, the corollary being, "Prove she's not being referred to as Natasha Romanoff".
We know her name in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is Natasha Romanoff. That doesn't change even if she's called Black Widow. So we can say Natasha Ramanoff with certainty, which is what an encyclopedia strives for.
However, I suggest a collaborative compromise. We can absolutely say with certainty that, "Marvel press releases refer to Scarlett Johansson's character as Black Widow, though the filmmakers have not confirmed the film's character names." Is this a fair compromise that addresses both our needs? --Tenebrae (talk) 19:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The compromise is too wordy for my taste but since I have no opinion here, I'll defer to whatever is decided.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RE: 3x vs 2x comments: refer to the conversation that is directly above this one, in which you commented more times than I. The idea in both is that both of our opinions have clearly been expressed, and that a drawn out argument is not really helpful. I was not counting the specific number of replies.
In terms of her character not being specifically referred to as Black Widow in a different film and that being a part of the same universe- again, I refer you to Barton. He is not referred to as Hawkeye in the film Thor. That does not mean he will not be referred to as Hawkeye in the Avengers.
Stating that "Marvel press releases refer to Scarlett Johansson's character as Black Widow, though the filmmakers have not confirmed the film's character names" seems counterintuitive, as in this case Marvel are the filmmakers. At this point there is no Avengers film to view so that a conclusion can be reached. We can with certainty list the characters as they are listed in the press releases and know that they are thoroughly sourced, or we can exclude the information based on a different film. At this point I'd rather others weigh in as our two viewpoints on this issue seem to be polar opposites. -Fandraltastic (talk) 19:51, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that's the idea of compromise — that people with opposite views can find a way to state things that address both their concerns. Nobody gets everything, but everybody gets something. Compromise is a valuable endeavor, and I'd hate to see a good, concerned and clearly collaborative editor like yourself not consider working with the wording and trying to find common ground. I've done this a lot, and I know two honorable editors working in good faith can do it now. I do hope you see that I respect your opinion and your willingness to discuss.
I didn't realize Clint Barton / Hawkeye was in Thor — the press screening in the U.S. isn't till next Tuesday. Can hardly wait! --Tenebrae (talk) 21:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And the fun of crafting a "future film"/"film project" article on comics...

IIRC the consensus with previous films is to limit the plot and finalized (screen credits) cast to what is in the film - hence no "Iron Monger", "War Machine", or "Black Widow" in those sections of completed and globally released films. But, in the "Production" and "Critical commentary/response" sections, if the "codename" is in a cited quote or used in a cited source and paraphrased, it's OK - so "War Machine" crops up in there. We just don't get to drop the codename in if we feel like it.

What does that mean for this article?

Well... We shouldn't have a plot section as such, so no issue there.

Spamming press releases whole cloth into the article is really against guide lines, but if those and what news articles there are on the production and cast use the codenames, then at present, there shouldn't be an issue since these will eventually be condensed into the "Production" section. Keep in mind though, we shouldn't be applying the manes, if the source cited uses "Barton will sport..." we don't get to change it to "Hawkeye will sport..." or even "[Hawkeye] will sport..." And some of. possibly most or all, the name dropping will be condensed out after the film's release.

As for the cast list... There really shouldn't be one at this point, at least not one in the "Actor - Role" table format. So the "Casting" would fall under the "Production" formatting. Again, there is something to keep in mind: IF "Hawkeye", "Black Widow", or any of the other code names aren't used in the film and/or credits, those are going to get yanked in the final cast list in the article. - J Greb (talk) 22:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify this no longer a film project, production has started and this article should be treated like any other.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 22:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
After doing some more thinking I think the article should remain as is, we know for a fact that Natasha Romanoff is correct, but are uncertain about Black Widow and I think it best to err on the side of caution. If Black Widow is used on screen we can add it at that point.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cast order

Until the credits are released (poster, website, etc.) the cast should be listed in film release order as to maintain a neutral point of view. As of now we do not know how signifact each role is compared to the others. Cameos and characters with out much information can still listed in prose at the bottom of the section.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 22:45, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be tempted to use alphabetic by actor since the "news releases" also imply a priority/ranking. - J Greb (talk) 23:03, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, as long as we are all on the same page.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Synopsis

The Avengers synopsis on the casting calls in New Mexico give a bit more information on the synopsis... "A superhero team called “The Avengers” do battle against two separate alien extraterrestrial humanoid life forms. The Avengers are a superhero team, consisting of a group of Marvel Comics heroes aka “Earth’s Mightiest Heroes”. The aliens that The Avengers will fight are called “The Kree” and “Skrulls”. These two extraterrestrial races become embroiled in a war for ages that ultimately makes its way to Earth, and the Avengers unite to intervene with all their power and might combined."

Here's one of the many sites you can find this synopsis on... http://www.geekmodern.com/?p=120

And also mentioned in the link above, a newspaper in New Mexico reported this: ”‘The Avengers’ script will blend ‘Iron Man’, ‘Thor’, and ‘Captain America: The First Avenger’ story lines as the Avengers battle with two alien races, the Skrulls and the Kree.” JAR Head 13:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Geek Modern does not seem to be a reliable source so the authenticity of this casting call comes into question. What is stated in the article comes directly from Marvel.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:21, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Concur. I've removed this reference for now for the following reasons: Geekmodern.com, first of all, was not the source of the story. We should always go to the original source. In this case it was a site [which I can't even link to since it's apparently blacklisted) called Before the trailer dot com 2011/03/the-avengers-open-casting-information-in-albuquerque-on-march-25-and-26/ , which is run anonymously/pseudonymously and gives only first names and geographic regions -- there's no address, and no indications that this is anything but a self-published hobby site whose information may or may not be accurate or even made up: Wikipedia has a long history of being hoaxes. If this casting notice is real, why doesn't it appear in Bckstage or elsewhere? --Tenebrae (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also thought it was strange that Marvel was so deliberately vague in regards to the story in their press release but so specific in the casting call that would have gone out to hundreds of potential actors and extras.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanos to appear in the film?

According to this website Thanos will be making an appearance in the film. Can anyone verify this? Josh (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No attribution is given in the source, so as of now it is just rumor.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 20:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Series?

Has there been any information pertaining as to whether or not this is intended to be a one-shot film, or the start of an Avengers series? I ask because the absence of founding members like Pym/Wasp who would lead into things like Ultron/Vision/Scarlet Witch, is pretty alarming. DB (talk) 06:15, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen anything definitive.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 16:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Avengers.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Teaser trailer in Captain America: The First Avenger

I do not think that a teaser trailer playing after the ending credits is anymore notable than a trailer playing before the opening credits. WP:FILMMARKETING is pretty clear on mere mentions of trailers. If this scene is actually apart of Captain America: The First Avenger it should be mentioned there in the plot section.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The use of the trailer in Captain America is highly unusual in that it is connected to the plot of the film and seeks to interlink the two films together into a continuous narrative (like the teasers in the other MCU films), and is thus noteworthy and not in violation of WP:FILMMARKETING. Why shouldn't the Captain America trailer be included in the article, when the Comic-con trailer is? Richiekim (talk) 15:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I am iffy on the Comic-Con trailer as well, but the emphasis is on the Comic-Con promotion not the trailer itself. Also are we talking about a stinger or an actual trailer that happens to air after the ending credits. Your wording suggests that latter. If it is in fact a stinger than it is apart of CA:TFA and should be mentioned there in the plot as with Iron Man (film), Iron Man 2 and Thor (film).--TriiipleThreat (talk) 16:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
According to this, it is a stinger not a trailer. Melrose, Kevin (2011-07-22). "Captain America Post-Credits Scene Leaks, Teases The Avengers". Comic Book Resources. Retrieved 2011-07-22. --TriiipleThreat (talk) 17:26, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the Thor movie article mentions the stinger from Iron Man 2 in the marketing section. Another reason why the Captain America stinger should be mentioned in the Avengers film article. Richiekim (talk) 18:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again WP:OTHERSTUFF, but atleast that also contains critical commentary.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merely stating the existence of the trailer violates the guideline. Marketing should be accompanied by a real-world context i.e. analysis or critical commentary, or third party observations about its reception, otherwise it is not encyclopedic information. Betty Logan (talk) 20:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the case of this trailer is unusual enough to warrant a mention. First, a post-credits trailer is rare if not unprecedented. Second, it is unusual for a post-credits scene to seamlessly change to a trailer. Third, the scene/trailer was leaked online, resulting in it being removed from press screenings. --Boycool (talk) 03:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As Betty Logan stated inclusion of the trailer is fine as long as it is accompanied by critical commentary otherwise it is in violation of guidelines.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:33, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really think there should be a more detailed outline of this trailer in the article. Saw Cap'n A the other day, and considering the audience reaction, and also considering the expectations surrounding this film, someone really ought to outline what is presented in the trailer! There is A LOT of info there, and unfortunately most of it flashed by too fast for me to get most of it. --98.247.142.237 (talk) 13:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dum Dum Dugan?

I read on the Marvel Movie wiki (not saying it as a realiable source) that Dugan was to appear in The Avengers. Considering this could be a rumour, i thought this should be given some looking in to. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 3:57 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Amanda Righetti

Most of the sources reporting about Amanda Righetti trace back to this article which gives no attribution to where the information originated, as such we should treat this as a rumor until a more definite confirmation is made.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

She's the very last person in the official cast credits of Captain America: The First Avenger: "SHIELD Agent ... AMANDA RIGHETTI". She has, I think, two lines, playing the fake nurse in the present-day room where they're trying to acclimate Rogers by pretending it's still the 1940s.
It's just a bit part, no more notable than "Stark’s Engineer ... KEVIN MILLINGTON", "Manager Velt ... PATRICK MONCKEBERG" or "HYDRA Lieutenant ... PETER STARK". --Tenebrae (talk) 16:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And, in fact, the article cited doesn't even say she's going to be in The Avengers specifically, and simply speculates — wrongly, as it turns out — that she's playing a major role when it's just a bit part. I'm removing her from The Avengers article since there's no reliable-source citation that she's in The Avengers. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Here's your citation. [1] Scroll down and tell me the name that comes up between Tom Hiddleston and Lou Ferrigno. Then kindly bring my edits back. I mean no disrespect, but I know more on this subject then you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guidorulz (talk • contribs) 17:04, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

IMDB is not a reliable source, please see WP:IRS on identifying reliable sources.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 17:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, it has been removed.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 21:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disney vs Paramount

Disney is the studio which will distribute The Avengers, NOT Paramount. The teaser poster with the Paramount logo is not sufficient proof, whereas there are multiple sources that reported that Disney bought the distribution rights from Paramount. Richiekim (talk) 13:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This might be an error, this same exact teaser poster was uploaded by Marvel on their website. --WikiEditor44 (talk) 02:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, the Paramount logo also appears on Marvel's official website for The Avengers. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The logo could mean anything for all we know it could just be left over from Disney's deal when they secured the rights from Paramount. The press release cited in the premise does state Disney is the sole owner and distributor. The point is we shouldn't make any rush to judgements and wait for a reliable source to explain it's significance.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 02:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0848228/
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