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"Greek Macedonia" versus "Macedonia in Greece"

I have reverted a change of "Greek Macedonia" to "Macedonia in Greece". The reason I have done this is linguistic interpretation of the modifier in English. While the two expressions may seem roughly equivalent on the surface, they are different semantically and pragmatically. Semantically, "Greek Macedonia" means that it is Macedonia that is fundamentally Greek, while "Macedonia in Greece" means that it is fundamentally Macedonia that happens to be located in Greece. Pragmatically, we tend to place the element to emphasize first, therefore "Greek Macedonia" emphasizes its fundamental Greekness while "Macedonia in Greece" emphasizes its fundamental "Macedonianness". Thus, if we place "Macedonia" first and use a locative prepositional phrase that divorces its fundamental nature from Greece, we push a Macedonian POV that is at the heart of the Macedonia/Greece naming dispute. If, however, we place "Greek" first and use an attributive form that emphasizes the province's fundamentally Greek nature, then we keep the political status quo as it is--Greek Macedonia is part of Greece. --Taivo (talk) 13:41, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 77.28.186.230, 30 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

Edit the Gini coefficient on the English page. In the CIA report from 2003 it is 39 (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2172.html), instead of 29.3 that is current. If you have proof of calculation please present it to be reviewed.

Cacevski (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 Done ThemFromSpace 14:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Infobox flag link

Currently, the link in the infobox under the flag points to the disambiguation page. Does anyone know a way to direct it straight to the appropriate page? It's a bit disconcerting. (Coat of arms leads to a redirect, but that is less of an issue.) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:45, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

 Done  Andreas  ^(T) 14:54, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Magnisima, 4 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Hi, all, I would like to address an issue that appear for this article. I would like to point to you that this same article in macedonian language states different facts. example: mentioning of Macedonian Empire, which in the English version doesn't appear. Tsar Samuil in the English version is Tsar Samuil of Bulgaria, but in macedonian version the macedonian feudal country is called Samuil's kingdom. By the way no mentioning of such a country in the English version. Please revise the macedonian version. --Magnisima (talk) 10:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Magnisima (talk) 10:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

We cannot decide about editing the mk-wiki article from here. If you want to change anything on mk-wiki, you need to go and edit there. If you want to change anything in our own article, please say what. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Was FYROM in ancient world in the territory of Paeonia?

To my mind FYROM in ancient history was at the land of Paeonia and not in ancient Macedonia!688dim (talk) 11:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Both Macedonia's were at one point part of Paeonia, so says our article. The point? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

There was no FYROM in the ancient world. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 12:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The real question is when did the Slavic people called Macedonians arrive where they are now? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 03:35, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

When they arrived they were tribes rather than people, and definitely not "called Macedonians". What they were is just that, Slavic tribes who had their distinct tribal names and who are ancestors (part of the ancestors anyway, along with others) of the modern ethnic Macedonians. Apcbg (talk) 05:35, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't answer the q I'm afraid. Alright, how about this then. When did the people from whom the modern Slavic people that call themselves Macedonians today descend arrive here? When did the ancestors of the modern people arrive? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 06:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

For all I know, in 5-7^th centuries AD Slavic people invaded the Balkan Peninsula and eventually settled all over the region including in particular what today is the territory of the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and most of Greece (down south to the Peloponnese Peninsula) to contribute to the ethnogenesis of the modern nations in those countries during the subsequent centuries (over one millenia actually). Hope this helps. Apcbg (talk) 06:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is helpful. =) Hmmm, what would be really good is an archaeological report though. One showing when there was a sudden change in the pottery (evidence a new civilisation has arrived) in the area. That would give a pretty good answer for me. =) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 06:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yet more naming threads
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
NPOV dispute Arbitrary use of the term "Republic of Macedonia", as imposed country name. Opposed to the UN 817 / 1993 security council resolution. No reliable sources are provided in the article to substatiate the international use of any name other than "Former Ygoslav Republic of Macedonia" as the reference name of the country. In addidtion there is an officiall VETO pedding upon the acceptance of the country in NATO under the impossed name "Macedonia" and derivatives. Since this constitutes a major international issue and imposses a direct violation of the afforementioned United Nations security council resolution, the use of the official "Former Ygoslav Republic of Macedonia" under which the country is internationally recognised and refferenced by the United Nations is suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.35.65 (talk) 03:32, 14 August 2011 (UTC) Wikipedia does not follow the style guide of any external organisation, such as the UN, NATO, or EU. The current title of "Republic of Macedonia" was created in accordance with wikipedia policy and guidelines, notable WP:NPOV, and WP:DISAMBIGUATION. Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC) Yet the fact remains: The article title violates the major NPOV rule imposing a non-existing Country Name not based on any reliable sources. It should be advisable for the authors and/or protecting administrator of the article to provide with solid citations to reliable sources substantiating the validity of the claim, or otherwise utilise the legitimate "Former Ygoslav Republic of Macedonia". Failure upon either could potentially foster bulk number of articles under misleading names; please do consider "Irish Republic of Edinburgh", "Dublin Republic of Great Britain", "Republic of Texas", which virtually present the same no-degree of validity and resemblance with aforementioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.35.65 (talk) 23:14, 14 August 2011 (UTC) Name I don;t want to see it again Macedonia. Macedonia is a greek Region. The country is called FYROM. Change it NOW. Thanks--ArgGeo (talk) 11:05, 14 August 2011 (UTC) Please see the section right above this one, and the big yellow notice at the very top of this article. By the way, your change to the "common_name" parameter technically broke the page. That parameter is not actually displayed anywhere, but only serves to get automatic links to the "Flag of..." and "Coat of arms of..." entries right. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC) NPOV dispute - 2 Yet the fact remains: The article title violates the major NPOV rule imposing a Country Name not being based on any reliable sources. It should be advisable for the authors and/or protecting administrator of the article to provide with solid citations to reliable sources substantiating the validity of the claim, or otherwise utilise the legitimate "Former Ygoslav Republic of Macedonia" for which the widest acceptable citation currently holds (United Nations naming convention). Failure upon either could potentially foster bulk number of articles under misleading titles; please do consider: "Irish Republic of Edinburgh", "Dublin Republic of Great Britain", "Republic of Texas"... which virtually present the same no-degree of validity and resemblance to the subject and the content with the aforementioned. On wikipedia most country articles are titled with the countries short form name, which in this case would be Macedonia. However, the need to disambiguate with the Greek region means that we use a longer name, "Republic of Macedonia", similar to the use of "Republic of Ireland" (although that is just a descriptor). The difference between "Republic of Macedonia" and the random examples you gave is the the name "Republic of Macedonia" is an official one used by the country and many that recognise it. Making random names does not help your argument. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:48, 15 August 2011 (UTC) Dispute This article violates Wikipedia guidelines. The official name of the country is "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, an advertising platform, a vanity press, an experiment in anarchy or democracy, an indiscriminate collection of informationItalic text, or a web directory." "Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view.Italic text" Therefore, the name should be changed immediately to "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" if this entry is to be called "encyclopedic" and Wikipedia be taken seriously.Amadeus webern (talk) 23:52, 14 August 2011 (UTC) See WP:MOSMAC. This article is, indeed, titled according to Wikipedia policy. And "Former..." is not the official name of the country. According to its constitution, which is the official determinant of what a country's official name is, its name is officially "Republic of Macedonia". There is no other official name that counts. --Taivo (talk) 05:08, 15 August 2011 (UTC) Caution The only valid and widely accepted name for INTERNATIONAL USE of the country is the "Former Yougoslav Republic of Macedonia". Any other name or characterisation (i.e. "Republic of Macedonia") is intendeed STRICTLY FOR INTERNAL USE. Wikipedia is a universal and thus INTERNATIONAL mean of knowledge sharing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.110.215 (talk) 17:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC) Republic of Macedonia isn't just used by Macedonians. The embassy of the UK for example, calls the country the Republic of Macedonia. Wikipedia is not about what is "valid". Anyway, the current title is the result of disambiguation, not the result of pushing a Macedonian point of view. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:49, 15 August 2011 (UTC) NPOV dispute Title and 1st paragraph missleading information: Please provide with reliable sources/citations to consolidate the claim that the country's international name has changed to "Republic of Macedonia". Otherwise do revise and refer to it with its official interational name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_817 which is currently the official international (UN index) http://www.undemocracy.com/S-RES-817%281993%29.pdf name of the country. 91.140.126.157 (talk) 16:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 94.64.9.236, 21 May 2011

94.64.9.236 (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2011 (UTC) Misleading information about the historical background of the current located country between Bulgaria,Greece,Albania and Serbia.

Ancient Macedonians were not Slavic tribes. Their existence in the area was far before the coming of the Slavic tribes long after the Roman Empire.

You need a reliable source or a few for that. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 12:26, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Per above. Kinaro^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:44, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request: minor typo

"In the Republic of Macedonia there are 1,100 larger sources of water. The rivers flow into three different basins: the Aegean, the Adriatic and that Black Sea basin"

should read: "the Black Sea basin"

Done, thanks for spotting this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:20, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Ugh...there's a LOT of typos/minor grammatical mistakes in this article. Understandable, those who have a strong understanding of Macedonian history are likely not well-versed in English. Someone who knows this stuff but speaks English as a first language want to read the entire thing for typos?

Revert of my change to "state": "country" vs. "state"?

My change was reverted by Fut.Perf.. Please see msg I left at his talk page for my rationale. Does the community agree that for articles about the political entities to use state as the standard? As far as I know and seen of all "country" articles, sovereign state is used. Mistakefinder (talk) 08:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Most eastern European country articles (e.g. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine) seem to be using simply "country" without any link. Some western European countries I've seen (France, Italy) instead have a more specific description of their constitutional form. I'd always go for maximum simplicity, and keep WP:OVERLINK in mind ("plain English words"). There are very few places in the world where a "country" isn't a "state", while there are a few more where a "state" isn't a "country". "Country" works fine here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:27, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not quite true that "There are very few places in the world where a "country" isn't a "state"". As the country says, it's a geographic area, and all geographic areas on earth are occupied by "states" other than Antarctica, and as such, there's no place that's not a country, defined geographically ty natural features, like a valley, a plain, etc. Political entity (states) divides geographic "countries". For example, Poland. The country it sits on didn't change, but the its border kept changing and dividing the country (territory) in a new way under its political state. Though "country" is a common English word, but it's been misused. Shouldn't we try to correct misuse or misconceptions? Mistakefinder (talk) 23:41, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Future Perfect. We should go for maximum unambiguous simplicity. In the case of Macedonia, "country" is unambiguous and is the common English word. "State" should be reserved only for those countries where "country" is ambiguous (such as the United Kingdom) or where a qualifying term is mandated (such as Somaliland, where de facto is required). --Taivo (talk) 01:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

"Macedonia Salutarius" -> "Macedonia Salutaris"

Changed "Macedonia Salutarius" (assumed to be a typo) to "Macedonia Salutaris". One occurrence only: the second one was ok. Please see "Tabula successionis provinciarum Romanarum" in the Latin Wikipedia, or "Suddivisioni e cronologia delle province romane" in the Italian one. JmCor (talk) 12:18, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Demographics

Could someone double-check the population numbers shown on this template? Thanks.--Sisyphos23 (talk) 12:59, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The census only gives population numbers for municipalities and not individual cities. The only city population given on that template that can be verified by the census is that of Skopje since it is made up of 10 municipalities. So perhaps the template could be moved to be about the largest municipalities in Macedonia. --Local hero ^talk 13:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Please delete the last paragraph in Yugoslav Macedonia in World War II

The last paragraph "In Vardar Macedonia, after Bulgarian coup d'état of 1944 the Bulgarian troops, surrounded by German forces, fought their way back to the old borders of Bulgaria. Three Bulgarian armies (some 455,000 strong in total) entered Yugoslavia in September 1944 and moved from Sofia to Niš and Skopje with the strategic task of blocking the German forces withdrawing from Greece. Southern and eastern Serbia and Macedonia were liberated within a month." is quoted by unreliable source. It is wrong as well.

There was no Bulgarian army involved in liberation of Republic of Macedonia in WW2. Republic of Macedonia was liberated by the People's Liberation Army of Macedonia, with a size of roughly 90000 soldiers. The number of 455000 soldiers is largely exaggerated as well. On the Syrmian Front there were 2 divisions from the Bulgarian army. The Macedonian army took a larger involvement. There were 2 divisions of the Macedonian army in the start of the Syrmian Front and from january 1945 the 15th corps with size of roughly 30000 (1/3rd of the Macedonian army) was involved on the front. Secondly, there were also not enough German forces in Republic of Macedonia in the 1941-44 to surround any Bulgarian troops. Republic of Macedonia as part of Greek Macedonia was under control of Bulgaria and there were much less German soldiers then Bulgarian. The German army was in Greece. In the end no one really seriously blocked the German forces withdrawing from Greece. They were negotiations and they were often granted free passage through the territory of Yugoslavia even throughout 1945 because some units were strong and skilled enough to take back Belgrade that was liberated earlier by the Red army. No country on the Balkans had equiped and powerful army to defeat the German Army Group E. The Syrmian Front was literally a bloodbath very sadly with many Macedonian names (over 2000 of the 13000+ victims) written on the monument. (Toci (talk) 10:58, 2 July 2011 (UTC))

Check here: Bulgaria declares war on Germany and especially this: On a series of maps from Army Group E, showing its withdrawal through Macedonia and Southern Serbia, as well as in the memoirs of its chief of staff, there is almost no indication of Yugoslav Partisan units, but only Bulgarian divisions. Read also the added sources! Change your mind! Thank you. Jingby (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Deleted?

Just an observation. I agree with the deletion of, 'http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2507/1/ [...]The law doesn't allow for use of Albanian or any other minority language as a second official language on Macedonia's territory.}}? because of the source; but the fact is that the only official language ofthe Republic of Macedonia is Macedonian. Politis (talk) 16:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Lede

First, apologies to User:Philly boy92. There were multiple edits between mine and I didn't see his listed on the change form. I wasn't trying to edit war &c. On the other hand, the name is wikt:official and reverting sourced material is pushing his own POV at the expense of neutrality.

One revert claimed

"fYROM" is a temporary name given by the UN to refer to the country

It's been almost 20 years. Calling that "temporary" or "provisional" is mendacious WP:OR.

In any case, there are other edits (including translit, removing needless term 'transliteration', etc.) that should be made to the lede by someone approved by the local Powers That Be who won't be autoreverted upon submission. Here's my version of the paragraph:

Macedonia (/ˌmæsˈdoʊniə/ , mas-i-DOH-nee-ə; Template:Lang-mk, Makedonija), officially the Republic of Macedonia (Република Македонија, Republika Makedonija, [rɛˈpublika makɛˈdɔnija] ) for domestic purposes and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (or FYROM) for international ones, is a country located in the central Balkan peninsula in Southeast Europe. It is one of the successor states of the former Yugoslavia, from which it declared independence in 1991. Because historic Macedonia includes territories outside the borders of the new republic, Greece objected to its name, resulting in Macedonia's admission to the United Nations in 1993 under the "FYROM" designation.

— LlywelynII 14:38, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with the text as it was. The term "official" really has no well-defined meaning, so I don't see why we need to fight over it. If anything, in a context like this, "official" means "self-defined", so the only "official" name is, by definition, the constitutional name. As I said elsewhere, the state itself doesn't use the "former Yugoslav" term for itself, not even in those international contexts were other parties refer to it in that way. About your objection to "provisional"/"temporary", well, that's what it was always meant to be, and it was ("officially") designated as such when it was chosen. The fact that there's been a deadlock over it for a long time now doesn't change this; especially since both states are still holding talks with the express goal of removing this provisional status quo and replacing it with something else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:30, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Future Perfect. "Provisional" and "temporary" are entirely relative terms; there is no "statute of limitations" on calling something provisional or temporary. The "ceasefire" on the Korean peninsula is now almost 60 years old and that has always been a "temporary" situation with continuing negotiations. --Taivo (talk) 17:13, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining your edits Llywelynll, I am confident you did not mean to revert back to your edits now. However I would like to point out two things:

1. "officially the Republic of Macedonia (Република Македонија, Republika Makedonija, [rɛˈpublika makɛˈdɔnija] ) for domestic purposes" — this is, in fact, incorrect. The Interim Accord never intended, and indeed does not include such a clause, to force the Republic of Macedonia to call itself fYROM or to force other countries to call it that. It also did not intend to impose fYROM as the international name. The Interim Accord was not addressed to the Republic of Macedonia but to international organizations who have to call the Republic of Macedonia something without infuriating Greece. Therefore the adoption of fYROM is not "for international use" but as a temporary (temporary means until a solution is found; none has been found, therefore it is still temporary) solution, for those that choose to recognize it as such, and not as the required recognition of the state. This is a common misconception in regards to the Accord.
2. It's been almost 20 years. Calling that "temporary" or "provisional" is mendacious WP:OR — To be exact, when Greece recognized Macedonia the recognition letter said "In implementation of Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord of today's date the Government of Greece recognizes the Party of the Second Part within its internationally recognized borders with the provisional name of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State". Since no solution has been found, this is still provisional.

--Philly boy92 (talk) 18:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Its NOT MACEDONIA. IT'S OFFICIALLY CALLED FYROM. It's extremely annoying that you call it macedonia--ArgGeo (talk) 10:39, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The country is called the Republic of Macedonia by its people ergo it's the name of that country. FYROM is ridiculous bullshit enforced by the Greeks. -TheHande (talk) 10:45, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I would just like to point out here that the user ArgGeo has posted on the Greek article on Macedonia asking for Greek users of the Greek wikipedia for support to move from Macedonia to FYROM on this. He also labeled us "idiots" essentially. He obviously isn't aware that canvassing is not allowed on wikipedia. --Philly boy92 (talk) 00:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Before going on with these fruitless discussions, please read the notice at the top of this page where it says: "The title of this article has been established by a binding consensus process at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia). Any threads relating to the title of the article will be speedily archived."  Andreas  ^(T) 13:02, 10 September 2011 (UTC)