Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2/Evidence

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Note

In response to Elen of the Roads' remark, I think it may be valuable for arbitrators to review the AEs that were filed, but I also wondered whether the length of them may have been prohibitive. I am currently condensing my evidence and putting into the prescribed template; hopefully that will make it easier for everyone involved. It would be OK to only consult the evidence I am submitting here. One thing though: since I am submitting evidence on three editors, I'm wondering if I might have a extension on the word limit (maybe in the 1600-word neighborhood)? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe that your evidence submission here is sufficient to replace what you sent to AE, then please be sure to specify that in your submission here (I'll leave a similar note on the main evidence page under Elen's note). As for the word limit, try to get what you can within the 1000-word limit, and then if you run out of room we can consider an extension then. Remember that the AE stuff will not count against your word limit. Hersfold non-admin^(t/a/c) 14:32, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have mostly drafted it and it is already over 1000. It deals with the conduct of three editors over a pretty long period of time. The prose is minimalist. The evidence I submitted at AE was far longer, at around 4000 words and nearly 100 diffs. I am proposing reducing this a great deal and resubmitting it here, but I ask for around 1600. Wouldn't that be better than submitting 1,000 here and pointing everyone to another 4000, where much of the evidence will overlap? I would submit the 1600 here as final, once I receive permission to do so. Then it would not be necessary to consult the original AE (but arbitrators who wished to of course could). Please let me know. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 16:58, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I wasn't clear, so I will ask my question in a simple sentence: I request permission to post about 1600 words of evidence, rather than about 1000. Do I have permission to do that? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 13:39, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay in responding, the last couple days have been a little hectic. I'll grant an exemption to allow you to post up to 1500 words; do please try to pare this down a little further if you can. I'm asking this because as a party to the case you already have an extension of sorts (up to 1000 words), and we will have quite a lot of text to sort through in this case. Keep in mind also that many diffs will speak for themselves and require little explanation. An evidence section formatted along these lines is perfectly acceptable and encouraged in evidence:

Editor X repeatedly edit wars with hostile edit summaries: [diff] [diff] [diff]...
Editor X responds to requests to stop edit warring with personal attacks: [diff] [diff] [diff]...

I'll be sure the clerks are aware of the extension. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 16:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hersfold. I will keep this format in mind and go over my evidence carefully, and try to make it as concise as possible. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:42, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have just been notified of the deadline for evidence submission. However, yet to this day, because of the absence of submission from the accusing party, I can only guess at the charges of what I stand accused. From the above, it seems that there will be voluminous evidence, and I would therefore request an extension for replying. I think it would not be unreasonable to ask for 5 clear days from the date of submission of evidence. I shall be grateful for your confirmation. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 15:42, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ohconfucius. The deadline has been noted on the case since the day it opened. As you can see, editors were given the opportunity to either have the AE statements read into evidence or post something shorter, so I think you can safely assume that the evidence posted will either be the full AE statement or a cut down version. I recommend that rather than focussing on posting rebuttals, you prepare a statement which covers your view of the dispute. If any of the evidence raises questions about the actions of any of the parties, the drafting Arbs (myself and Hersfold) will ask for any clarification that we need. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also keep in mind that the workshop provides (oft-underutilized) sections for analysis of evidence, which you may be able to use to compare and contrast your view of events with those views posted by others. Hersfold non-admin^(t/a/c) 16:15, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 16:17, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note

I should note that since my involvement in this case is solely in my AE capacity, I do not intend to submit any evidence. T. Canens (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I am not sure if this qualifies as "evidence," as I have been uninvolved in this topic for some time. However, there are some points I believe are reasonable and relevant to raise.

First, why I became less involved. One, there are other significant subjects in wikipedia other than Falun Gong. Two, it became increasingly clear to me, over the process of gathering and reading what material I saw about FG, that there seem to be very close ties between Western governments and Falun Gong. Jiang Zemin, among others, is reported by at least some sources to have said that he thought the US government was behind the development of FG in the first place. Certainly, the recent cessation of Voice of America broadcasts in Mandarin is somewhat, well, strange, particularly as no official support has been given any other broadcaster to China. One independent source I remember reading specifically mentioned an independent broadcaster who sought US money to broadcast to China thereafter, and was turned down. Of course, Sound of Hope radio, which has been linked to FG, broadcasts into China, and its sources of funds are not revealed. I could go on, but after a while the details of what led to my conclusions awhile ago are a bit hazier now.

I also note that almost all of TSATF's complaints in the original AE report are about individuals making connections between FG and other entities, about trying to improve the impression our content gives regarding subjects which are tied to FG, and "cut down" some of the critics. As I said earlier, I had previously gone through all the material I could find regarding Shen Yun some time ago, and found very few really positive independent post-performance reviews of it. I do acknowledge remembering some comments about "nice outfits," but that was about it. TSATF's complaint there is about how the article presents a negative view of Shen Yun. Honestly, unless the more recent reviews about their most recent performances are remarkably better than the ones I had read then, that is more or less what the independent sources say, and, basically, as per NPOV, what our article should say. And I also remember the few comments I heard in town here after a recent one-night performance locally here were, basically, roughly as negative as anything I had read earlier.

I am also stunned by the apparent refusal to develop any additional content, and just continue battling on existing articles. I personally created the Jennifer Zeng article because I believed the content of her autobiography would be a damning criticism of the PRC's conduct. That was some years ago. For all the bickering about the Shen Yun, self-immolation incident, Sima Nan, and other articles that has taken place since then, there seems to have been little if any attention given this subject, or any of the other, fairly numerous, notable people and events related to FG. In fact, I don't know if any other articles have been created since. I could understand why Ohconfucius and Colipon, both of whom seem to be so far as I can see editors who deal primarily or exclusively with China content, might not be particularly interested in some of the expats and others associated with FG, as they are, basically, outside of their scope. I have trouble understanding why the editors who are apparently more sympathetic with FG have not done so. What they indicate is an effort to, basically, want to make FG more sympathetic in the existing articles. That strikes me as very strange, and, perhaps, consistent with what seems to me to be the Western governments' efforts to promote FG as a victim and seriously condemn the PRC.

I've said elsewhere that there is an old joke about how the CIA and State department employ some of our best contributors on international affairs. Nothing I have seen in the recent history of the articles as per the discussion leads me to think that might not be the case here, although I make no specific statements about specific editors.

It does seem to me that some of the "defendants" here may well have committed a few acts in violation of guidelines. It also seems rather clear to me that there may well have been some POV pushing and possibly collusion that they might have been operating against. While they may have acted less than optimally, I am far from sure that they might not have been acting in a very understandable way.

I urge the ArbCom to make a thorough review of all the statements, including some possibly easily seen misrepresentations of fact and of others, in the evidence presented for consideration here and at AE, and at the basic behavior of all those involved. I have a rather strong feeling, admittedly just a feeling, that the "defendants" here may have been, in at least a few cases, been the lesser of at least plural evils. John Carter (talk) 20:38, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm honestly not entirely sure what you're getting at with much of this, but the majority of your concerns seem to be about the apparent limitation on the scope of the case as defined by the motion that led to its opening. While three editors were named in the motion, it also mentions that we'll review "other issues relating to pages which were within the scope of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong." I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret this as the more traditional "review conduct of all involved," albeit with a somewhat lesser focus on the editors not named in the motion. If the pages centered around Falun Gong are subject to what appears to be COI editing or governmental-based POV pushing, then I don't think evidence documenting that would be entirely out of order. Hersfold non-admin^(t/a/c) 22:18, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be probably be impossible for me to verify any real COI, particularly if it were with people who are in some way affiliated with Falun Gong or governments, either Western or Chinese. I do however believe that there are rather serious POV issues, particularly given the remarkably, well, almost obsessive, interest indicated to date in the articles about FG in China, which is, according to several sources, no longer an active concern there. Little if any attention seems to have ever been given to FG outside of China, either in notable individuals who have left the PRC, events there, and suchlike. Personally, I would think truly objective editors might be just as interested in current developments as they are in the PRC rights abuses. I think that there may well be rather serious concerns about editors selectively seeking to include or emphasize material which conforms to their "party line", possibly of both sides, but to my eyes most obviously on the pro FG side. However, some of the comments I have seen presented to date indicate to me that there is a possibly much more readily apparent attempt to paint material and groups seen as affiliated with FG in a good light, and its "opponents", basically the PRC, in a bad light. Pretty much all the individuals who can edit here are Westerners, and "used" to Western rights and systems. It is natural for all of us to have a POV that, basically, Western rights are right. But, to an extent, I'm not entirely sure how relevant everything I have presented here is myself. My own opinions, however, are not evidence, any more than anyone else's are. And, even in the reports I read, there was no clear statement that, for instance, Sound of Hope radio was getting financial support from Western governments. But I do believe it is worth noting that this is a major "political football" to both sides, and that it has been such for some time, and that there are clearly organizations which have an agenda regarding how FG is presented anywhere. Anyway, like I said, these are just opinions. I think they are somewhat informed opinions, but even so that is all they are. But I thought that the conclusions of some previously involved editors regarding the situation of FG in the broader world might be of use to the arbitrators. John Carter (talk) 22:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Protocol on responding to evidence

I understand that parties against whom evidence was presented have the option of responding to it within their own sections, is that right? Are there any recommendations on word constraints for such rebuttals? I understand that verbose argumentation is of little use to anyone. Homunculus (duihua) 22:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to know whether brief responses to evidence should be given here, or on the Workshop page - and if here, whether it counts toward the word and diff limits. Specifically, I have some diffs of my own editing Falun Gong pages that I would like to present. Secondly, I am nine diffs over. Do I need to delete nine diffs or will I be indulged? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 00:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may respond to evidence with evidence of your own in your evidence section - this counts towards your overall limits (1000 words/100 diffs for parties, 500/50 for non-parties). You can make (relatively brief) commentary in the Analysis of Evidence section on the Workshop.

@SoundAndFury, you are already over the limit, so please remove some diffs before adding any more. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 12:53, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]