Talk:Tay Bridge disaster

Navvies

Apparently they were in such a hurry to build the bridge that they were forced to use the only available squad of navvies, who were notorious for skimped workmanship 86.154.93.83 (talk) 21:41, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Tornado?

This disaster is mentioned in List of European tornadoes and tornado outbreaks, but this article doesn't mention a tornado. What's the truth? Totnesmartin (talk) 20:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I removed it because the official enquiry, relying on the ship's log of the Mars, lying in the estuary, states that the weather was "not...of that exceptional character". The wording at List of European tornadoes and tornado outbreaks—"Waterspout took out central section of Tay Rail Bridge"—can't really be supported.--Old Moonraker (talk) 22:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

That was my guess - It's the first mention I'd ever come across. Totnesmartin (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced Material Archive

Moving unsourced material that's been tagged long-term from the article to here. Please feel free to source and reincorporate into the article. Doniago (talk) 14:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Declaration of Intent

I was (and indeed still am) intending to put some work on this, following a few basic principles

1. Logical flow of article: should be disaster > inquiry > inquiry evidence > inquiry conclusions (including causes) (leaving > modern forensic engineering reinterpretations to somebody more interested and/or SQEP in such things)
2. Statements (of fact and most definitely of what the enquiry was told): should as far as possible be taken back to entries in 'Minutes of Evidence' (as a (hopefully) non-controversial example; the statement that casualty numbers were determined by a meticulous examination of ticket sales as far away as Kings Cross is referenced to (and is recognisably a misunderstanding of)Rolt, and it would be preferable to reference the evidence given by the people who collected the tickets at St Fort )
3. Inquiry conclusions: modern investigations have their own jargon of "immediate causes" , "root causes", "contributory factors", "failed barriers", "observations" which perhaps make things clearer, but even in 1880 it was appreciated that all sorts of things "which can't have helped" come to light in the course of investigation of an accident/incident, and not all of them are causes of what actually happened. Consequently the fact that the inquiry (or Rothery) comments adversely on something should not be reported as that thing being found to be a cause unless the enquiry (or Rothery) actually say so.

I think that revising the article according to those principles will take a considerable amount of work,; and following my normal method of working a lot of that work would take place before there is any visible revision of the article for others to comment on. I recently inserted a direct quote from the 15 conclusions of the C of I (no 12 - the immediate cause of the bridge collapse) , and had this reverted with 10 minutes, apparently on the grounds that this was no 12 of 15 causes given, supplemented by a mention of WP:UNDUE (presumably in the sense that this was giving undue prominence to a minority view, rather than the bit about such reprehensible activity being best countered by supplying more/stronger evidence to the contrary, rather than reversion/deletion). Clearly I do not want to encounter a similar treatment to anything representing some weeks' work. I would therefore appreciate it if anybody who disagrees with the above principles states their case to the contrary now rather than when/if a major revision is posted. If it becomes obvious that agreement is unlikely, then I can at least go off and waste my evenings on writing up the Belah Viaduct (or possibly Station Road Bridge Keswick, something built by Bouch which is still standing) Rjccumbria (talk) 21:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I recall your edit summary included "capture diversity [of] views". Commendable and welcome, I thought. Disappointment followed, with just one point from the fifteen enquiry conclusions quoted. If Rothery gives it as much prominence, then so may we. We shouldn't select just one without such a rationale: that would be WP:NOR and liable to a RV again. Selecting from the enquiry minutes, rather than the enquiry conclusions, may run the same risk.

Don't think from this that your attention to the article isn't very welcome and, in future, I for one will hold back from any instant rebuttal, waiting (but for longer than before) for the balance to show through. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Rothery has a 3 paragraph section headed "True Cause of Loss of Bridge" (Paras 101-3); the fact that this concurs with the C of I conclusion 12 as to the immediate cause does not appear to have prevented your immediate revert. I am sorry to have disappointed you and fully understand your explanation that this was a factor in reversion. Given how you take disappointment I would not want to run the risk of disappointing you again. I look forward to seeing this page improved to your own liking in the near future. Don't think from this that I hold any particular opinion about anything or anyone. Regards Rjccumbria (talk) 21:00, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, you are ahead of me again. As Old Moonraker I can remember the first manifestation of Magrathea (I even have the tapes!) but I can't work out the connection.--Old Moonraker (talk) 07:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Tapes? I've got the double LP (unpleasantly warped when last checked (and the LPs aren't in much better shape)).

As I understand your way of thinking I can't actually post anything until I have checked that all versions give roughly the same account of the events, and even then I really should give the rest of the plot so as not to give undue prominence to this episode, but a clue may be found at the start of an audio clip on the BBC HHGTTG webste, which runs (roughly);

Slartibartfast; Do not be alarmed, I mean you no harm

Arthur Dent (incredulous/indignant); You fired two missiles at us !

Slartibartfast; Oh, that...

(clip continues, so of course the possibility of selective quoting cannot be excluded)

(The missiles become a whale, and a pot of geraniums, if that jogs your memory; (the whale is the immediate cause of a large crater and a scattering of gobbets of whalemeat on the surface of the planet)) The intended point of the reference being that the automated missile-firing was in this case marginally preceded by a automated message saying that nothing should be read into it Rjccumbria (talk) 19:33, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Some extra material

You can find some interesting material at Patrick Matthew#The Tay bridge. Macdonald-ross (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Not quite as interesting as it was, I fear, once edited for 'he was right on all points' POV, but if you go there call in on its talk page for a pearler of a hubristic quote from Groethe's hubristic book on the Tay Bridge and the excellence of Mr Groethe's management of the project (not included in this article for space reasons)Rjccumbria (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Intro

Has anyone actually tried to read the intro? It really is bad. Introductions should be: what, where, why and when i.e. a summary of the article. The English is poor and the single paragraph is too long. Needs completely re-written. Doesn't tell me how many people died but it does tell me the wind loading of future bridge design! BTW I have not even tried to read the rest of the article... Bjmullan (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

... which seems a very strange thing to boast about. If you feel you can improve the lede feel free to do so; but perhaps it might help if you read the rest of the article before you give us the benefit of your views; if as you boast you haven't then presumably you are unable to comment accurately on whether the lede is a summary of the article. If you have read the lede you will know that it does say what, where and when. As to why, nobody knows quite why, but most people suspect the design features mentioned in the lede had something to do with it. The number of people who died is not known for certain, and (your exclamation mark notwithstanding) the effect of the diaster on British bridge design is normally considered noteworthy (for reasons the rest of the article explains). RegardsRjccumbria (talk) 23:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I checked the lead, and agree with Bjullan: it was bad. I've revised it. Note that details about the bridge are not entirely relevant, as this article is about the disaster, not so much about the bridge. Relevant details about the bridge should be included, IMHO, but not everything. That's why this is a separate article from that about the original bridge.

I'm also beginning to think I screwed up by not splitting the bridge article into two; one article about the original bridge and one about the one currently in use. I may fix that. - Denimadept (talk) 06:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)