Talk:Tupac Shakur

Please read and understand Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Citing sources, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources before making additions to this article, or making suggested additions on this article's talk page. Additions made without references which meet this criteria may be deleted as vandalism. Blogs, emails, fansites and statements made on the radio do not meet this criteria.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived.

Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (Through December 2005)

Place of Birth

Please provide a source per WP:CITE and WP:V for location. We can discuss reliability of differing reported sources here and determine the best-referenced location. Please do not modify the place of birth until this has been done. No more edit warring between Brooklyn, Bronx, Manhatten please. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggested: Enter birthplace as Manhatten per the driver's license in the book Tupac: Resurrection and add this to ref:

^ Tupac: Resurrection Atria, 2003 ISBN 0743474341

Some sources place Tupac's birth in the Bronx, while other sources such as IMDB have had both Brooklyn and the Bronx in the past. Most published sources, however, place his birth in Manhattan (Harlem to be precise), as is confirmed on his drivers license in the book Tupac: Resurrection, approved by Afeni Shakur. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually that's not his driver's license. That's his birth certificate with Manhattan in the book. I doubt you'll find a more verifiable source. Also, his mother's bio states that he was born in East Harlem (Manhattan), New York, to be more precise. 69.125.149.243

I got Brooklyn from the book From Totems to Hip-Hop by Ishmael Reed, [1] who is a pretty well respected source, I believe (I am implying that Jacob Hoye is less respected than Reed). Also note Google's "place of birth" featurette [2]. When I get a chance, I'll look for Hoye's book. I guess I have two questions, one, can you find a picture of a new york driver's license (or any american license) that has a spot for "place of birth" on it and two, can you reference any published source which can be viewed on the internet which places his birth in Harlam (or anywhere outside of Brooklyn and the Bronx). Respectfully, Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point. I found an image of a NY drivers license [3] and just like my Florida one, it has DOB but not place of birth. I will go by the library and see what I can find there (I was planning to double check this anyway), but it will have to wait until after the holidays. I found that ref in the page history, but now that you've brought it up, it sounds very fishy. I guess I wasn't thinking - good catch. It would be nice if the recent move to get Tupac's records released[4] is successful, then we can just look at his birth certificate (I am sure someone will publish it.) KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Did Tupac even have a New York State license? He did reside in Cali since 1988. Realferrari 04:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed the infobox to read "Manhattan" and not "Brooklyn" in order to remain consistent within the article. The proper place to discuss the confusion about his place of birth would be within the article, not to provide our readers with contradictory text without explanation. I changed it to Manhattan on the basis of the birth certificate found in the book referenced in the article, which clearly says Manhattan. (I used the Amazon "Search Inside" feature.) Perhaps we can provide a picture of the birth certificate from the book (I don't know if that would work as Fair Use, however). Everything I read online says that while you can change name and sex on a birth certificate, you can't change location of birth, so this should—assuming the document in the book is real—be his real place of birth. Seqsea (talk) 04:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the location in the infobox should be renamed to "New York, New York," (with a redirect to Manhattan) as this is used to denote places in the boro of Manhattan. One would only rarely see "Manhattan, New York," used, in the incorrect form, and I think it is in the best interest to use "New York, New York." It is also correct to use "New York City" to denote place of birth for someone for in Manhattan, but it would be best to alleviate the vagueness by using "New York, New York." --Zimbabweed 08:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That's fine... my original change was just me showing my West coast lack of knowledge ;o) As long as it doesn't magically become the Bronx during the change ;] —Seqsea (talk) 15:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well his birth certificate specifically says "Manhattan, New York"; and his official bio published by the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation backs this up by stating that he was born in "East Harlem, New York City". I think leaving it "Manhattan, New York" or possibly changing it to "Manhattan, New York City, New York" or even "New York City, New York (Manhattan)" would be the way to go. If you Wiki "New York City", the full NYC article that covers all five burroughs comes up, from the Bronx all the way to Staten Island. Might be a good idea to give some indicator that the link is going to re-direct you to Manhattan. SqlPac 20:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how other cities report their cities of birth, but the City of New York reports by the borough and not New York City as a whole, probably because it is comprised of five counties, or boroughs. On a person's birth certificate, it states the borough they were born in. If you search other Wikipedia articles that deal with people born in the borough of Manhattan, the biography infobox or the immediate paranthesis following their name will state either "New York, New York" or "New York City." If you look at the Manhattan article, you will see in the main paragraph it states that "addresses within the borough of Manhattan are typically designated as New York, NY," of course "NY" being the postal abbreviation for New York. To clear up any confusion, I think the first sentence in the "Early Life" section should be changed to: "Tupac Amaru Shakur was born in the [[Spanish Harlem|East Harlem]] section of [[Manhattan]] in [[New York City]]. --Zimbabweed 13:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Film/Acting career

Per Pinko1977 and Richard Corey, this needs to be researched, expanded, and generally improved. Remember to cite your sources.

Add information

Can someone explain how he died better (Shabbir Bokhari)

WELL BETTER WELL BASICLY ON THE 7TH OF SEPTEMBER 1996 HE WAS FIRED AT 12 TIMES FIVE HIT HIM (12-5=7) THEN 7 DAYS LATER ON FRIDAY THE 13 OF SEPTEMBER HE WAS PRONUNCED DEAD, PEOPLE SAID HE WOULD RETURN IN 2003(7 YEARS AFTER) THEN 2005(2+5=7) NOW FOR SOME REASON PEOPLE ARE SAYIN 2007 MAYBE TO KEEP THE SUSSPISSION ALIVE LOL Bobo6balde66

                          GEO

EDITED 2/28/06 More news needs to be added, like Madame Tussauds Las Vegas making a wax sculpture to be unveiled April 2006, and how his next album will be his last, and how the screenplay he wrote in prison, Live 2 Tell is going to be hitting theatres.

Second shooting: Wallace

An addition was made to the second shooting: By the time the newspaper made this contention, Wallace himself had been murderd, however Wallace's family and associates have claimed that Wallace was not in Las Vegas on that night and denied that Wallace had anything to do with the incident.

Is there a source for this information? KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up the Theories of the Crime sub-section, but a lot of the material in there needs to be sourced. I'm not sure where a lot of this info. came from; I imagine from some of the books that sprang up to explain the theories out there. If anyone can point us to the newspaper articles or books where this info. came from, it'd be appreciated. Thanks.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Death

I'd like to see some information focusing on the popular belief that Tupac faked his own death. Yes, it's highly implausible, but it deserves some coverage in this article.

some of that information i've compiled at User:Kingturtle/2Pac. maybe someone could write a short summary in Tupac Shakur and the start an article called Tupac Shakur conspiracy theory. Kingturtle 19:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Strongly advise not starting a fork to a conspiracy article. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Bad idea, people get angry when they see stuff like this written down. I do not like it, I strongly believe that it is all false. --Taurus8 sam 04:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Birth Name Dispute

I just removed this passage "also known as Lesane Parish Crooks" from the introduction, because Pac is not known as Lesane Crooks, not at all. In fact, I haven't seen any authoritative evidence that this was ever his first legal name. If some can point us to a verifiable authoritative source about his birth name, PLEASE do so. Until someone provides this source, we cannot be stating this assertion as fact.--Pinko1977 01:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

And before someone brings it up, the Thug Angel DVD booklet and the Before I Wake DVD are NOT authoritative sources. A verifiable source would be information directly from Afeni Shakur or Pac's family/representatives.--Pinko1977 02:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Negative. I sent an email to his mother's representatives requesting official verification but was told that Afeni Shakur does not meet the requirements to be considered 'authoritative' under WP:V and WP:CITE.

That was his birth name.

• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Lesane+Parish+Crooks&btnG=Google+Search
• http://www.2pac2k.de/name.html
• http://www.studentcentral.co.uk/unsolved_murder_lesane_parish_crooks_more_widely_4318/
• http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/music/tupac-shakur/
• http://www.nndb.com/people/548/000024476/
• http://skitzo11004.tripod.com/

That was his name his mother even said so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.34.130.105 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

None of those are sources which meet wikipedia's WP:V standards. Please continue to post any sources you find, as hopefully one will meet standards and we will be able to add this information. Thanks! KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It is very-very strange. It wasn't my edits at all (the link-list that has been reverted minures ago). I've just corrected my previous mistyped edit, completing it with one lone letter. It has to be a coincidence. So don't blame me. Lajbi 19:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Not blaming you, some odd things have been happening with edits. I meant to re-fix your typo after rolling back, sorry about that - I was called away and just got back to the computer. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

EDIT 2/28/06 I can take a picture of Makaveli Branded clothing that says that his birthname was Lesane Parish Crooks. His name was Lesane Parish Crooks, that was a fact. Sometimes rules are not meant to be read word for word, you are leaving out facts for stupid reasons.

I am sorry to hear that you find one of Wikipedia's three primary policies "stupid" and look forward to you finding a source which meets WP:V criteria; until then, please try to avoid making personal attacks, and sign all your posts with four tildes ( ~~~~ - thanks! KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

EDIT 2/28/06

Are you kidding me, every single true 2pac fan knows that his birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks. Due a Google search for "Lesane Parish Crooks" and you will see all the stuff, they aren't making it. USE COMMON SENSE.

If you read this it says he was born in East Harlem: http://www.2paclegacy.com/images/assets/bio_afeni_shakur/Afeni_Shakur_Biography.pdf

EDIT 3/01/06

I think we should really reconsider to accept this "real name-thing", that this guy is trying to prove fro some time. The main reason is that AMG claims it was Lesane Parish Crooks. And Allmusic is a reliable source, isn't it? [5] Lajbi 14:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

EDIT 3/1/06

If I am asked to I will take a picture of a Makaveli Branded (his official clothing line) jacket I have that has a article printed on that even says his name is Lesane Parish Crooks. It is kind of getting me angry that you will not exept this fact. His mom has said it before and so has he. I also found a source for the statement that he wanted to get into politics. He mentions it in many interviews.

http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Interview~AEOH.php

I have changed the into back, as there are numerous articles stating it was hsi name above, AND Afeni Shakur IS a verifiable source. She is a public figure with an office that can be contacted. For example, most articles on the British royal family use Buckingham Palace as a legitimate source of information. The same applies here.Yanksta x 16:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thugz-network is not a reliable source for anything. Please do not make disruptive edits against consensus. Please also note that none of the articles and/or sources listed above meet WP:V or WP:RS criteria. KillerChihuahua^?!? 17:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

He was born Lesane Parish Crooks then his mum dated a muslim dude and changed it to tupac...

YOU PEOPLE ARE REALLY FUNNY. HE WAS BORN LESANE PARISH CROOKS AND THEN HIS NAME WAS CHANGED TO TUPAC AMARU SHAKUR. GO READ A BOOK. THAT FACT IS WRITTEN IN EVERY BIOGRAPHY ABOUT HIM WORLDWIDE AND YOU PEOPLE ARE SO PARANOID THAT YOU ALL GET REALLY TENSE WHEN SOMETHING SO OBVIOUS IS NOT CITED.

Mutulu Shakur

The article states Mutulu was a drug dealer, I'm not sure this was true; Mutulu fashions himself a political prisoner. Are we sure he was a drug dealer? If not I don't think the article should so carelessly state that.

Maybe we should use the phrase "alleged drug dealer".

weasel words

Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words Here are some weasel words that are often found in Wikipedia articles:

• "Some people say..."
• "Research has shown..."
• "...is widely regarded as..."
• "It is believed that..."
• "It has been suggested/noticed/decided..."
• "Some people believe..."
• "Many people say..."
• "Critics/Experts say that..."
• "Some historians argue..."
• "Considered by many..."
• "Accusations..."
• "Apparently..."
• "Allegedly..."
• "Serious scholars/scientists/researchers..."
• "Mainstream scholars/scientists/researchers..."
• "The (mainstream) scientific community"

And don't even think about adding an "arguably." That does not factualize a weasely sentence.

EDITED 2/28/06

YOU CAN'T JUST CALL SOMEONE JUST ACCUSE SOMEONE OF SOMETHING AND CALL THEM FOR EXAMPLE A DRUG DEALER. YOU NEED TO CALL HIM AN ALLEGED DRUG DEALER. IF YOU MENTION SOMETHING THAT IS NOT PROVEN TRUE YOU NEED TO USE THOSE WORDS. -Steel

"tupac alive" section, etc.

Fixed the text of the Tupac Alive section to meet wikipedia standards. The section needs a lot of formating to make it pretty, but I'm to drunk now to edit responsibly :o.

Also, were 12, 13, or 7 shots fired?? Someone want to clear this up, or add something saying that it's unclear how many were fired?

There were 12 shots fired and 5 hit him.

Birth name STILL Unverified.

To all who assert that Shakur was born "Lesane Parish Crooks," please cite a reputable source attesting to this fact. Until you do, I ask that you stop adding the statement that he was "born Lesane Parish Crooks" to this article. On Wikipedia, if we cannot provide a REPUTABLE source to support an assertion, we CANNOT state it as fact. Please refer to Wikipedia:Verifiability. Thank you everyone.--Pinko1977 19:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:Cite sources/example_style seems to indicate that "Liner Notes" are an reliable source. ("This is how to reference the liner notes or sleeve notes of an album").

FYI - I am contacting the Amaru Entertainment with these and a few other questions that seem to be un-verifiable (what borough was he born in, etc.) I've already contacted the NYC Vital Statistics office and have been given the run-around on obtaining a birth certificate, so this will probably be the best source available. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 38.117.149.83 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

If these references are not published in a reliable source per WP:V, they will not be usable. Please familiarize yourself with WP:V, WP:CITE, and related policies if you have any questions. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Got it. Afenie Shakur is "not a reliable source" concerning where her son was born, or what his name was at birth. One would think that, with appropriate qualifiers, information about the birthplace of a son would be acceptable from the mother or her representatives and could be used as a reliable source. Would Tupac Shakur's Official Biography, published by the foundation which his mother founded in his name, also not qualify as a reliable source? I've already emailed Miss Shakur's representative and informed them that due to the official Wikipedia policies, as stated in WP:V and WP:CITE, I am no longer interested in her opinion in the matter of where her son was born or what her son's name was at birth.

LISTEN TO HIS MOTHERS WORDS, LISTEN TO HIS WORDS YOU FUCKING RETARD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.34.130.105 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

His mother is not reputable as far as Wikipedia is concerned. See WP:V and WP:CITE.

How about you cite a reputable source that says he was not born Lesane Parish Crooks.

EDIT 3/01/06

I think we should really reconsider to accept this "real name-thing", that this guy is trying to prove fro some time. The main reason is that AMG claims it was Lesane Parish Crooks. And Allmusic is a reliable source, isn't it? [6] Lajbi 14:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Allmusic is certainly more reputable than the other sources listed in the earlier post, above. I'm not at all certain Allmusic does not at times use WP as a source, if so then its a circular case. I will try to check on that. Meanwhile, please post any reputable sources found... it seems clear that was his birth name, but we cannot post that without a source which meets WP:V. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, can you define the degrees of 'reputability' used to draw this conclusion? And can you list the objective criteria used to determine 'reputability' of sources, assuming there are any objective criteria used in this determination.

Like I have been saying, I can take a picture of a jacket that is Tupac's official clothing line (Makaveli Branded which says right on it his birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks. {User L2K)

Which is lovely, except a clothing label isn't the New York Times. Its not that anyone thinks that wasn't his name; its meeting the verifiability requirements, which are important, especially for the birth name of someone this notable. I looked on the Foundation site a while back and couldn't find it - that would be more than adequate. As it is, its not a question of whether it was his name at birth, its a question of finding a cite that meets criteria. Clothing labels don't. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

apparently his birth certificate may state Tupac, not Lesane. See Talk:Tupac_Shakur/Archive01#Name. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Although I should have added, a DVD insert is not any better than a clothing label, and at any rate, sometimes replacement birth certificates are issued when the name is changed shortly after birth. The link is merely to show that there is controversy, and a very good source is needed if we are to post the Lasane Parish Crooks name. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

So does the biography published by the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation for the Arts count as a verifiable source or not? Someone make a decision and post it. BTW, has someone put together a master list of 'reputable' sources, or some sort of test for 'reputability' of a source? It all seems almost 100% subjective based on an Editor's whim; i.e., the source is or isn't 'reputable' primarily because I say so... Thanks.69.125.149.243 02:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Mostly at WP:V and WP:RS - not a list, but criteria. What is the best source we have? We can always add "According to (source) he was named Lesanne Parish Crooks at birth." KillerChihuahua^?!? 03:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll look over WP:RS, however WP:V does not give objective guidelines. The guidelines there are completely subjective. You can go ahead and add that he was born in "East Harlem (Manhattan), New York", if you feel that his official biography (published by the Tupac Amaru Foundation for the Arts, founded by Afenie Shakur) is 'authoritative'. If not, I'd love to know the objective criteria used to reject it's authority.69.125.149.243 02:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Add it, source it, be sure to include page number and ISBN, and I for one will support the addition. There was a lot of edit warring, with the Bronx and Manhatten and I think Brooklyn, and I took it off pending a source. You're the first one to come up with one. And please, please remember to sign your posts with four tildes - thanks much!!! KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Not so fast, it's not a Book. It's his biography. It is available in PDF format on the 2PacLegacy.com website. This website is the official website of the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation for the Arts founded by his mother. Afenie Shakur's biography on the site is at [[7]]. It has the following quote: "The acquittal came one month and three days before she {Afenie Shakur} gave birth to Tupac Amaru Shakur in East Harlem." Tupac's biography is at [[8]]. These are published for the public by the foundation. Is this a good source? 69.125.149.243 02:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, his birth certificate is reproduced in the book Tupac:Resurrection (ISBN 0-7434-7434-1) published by Atria Books (Simon & Schuster), 2003. His birth certificate states that the place of birth is "Manhattan", and it also states his name is "Tupac Amaru Shakur".69.125.149.243 04:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops sorry didn't see this before I reverted the article - putting the information back now. KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiousity, 69.125.149.243, why don't you register? KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually I did register at some point in the past... I just forgot my username/password. I figure I don't make enough additions/edits to warrant re-registering. I think, based on his birth certificate and the bio on his foundation's website, it would be reasonable to establish that his birthplace is Manhattan, NY. I doubt we'll ever get anything more verifiable than his birth certificate. What do you think?69.125.149.243

Stop being power stricken and add it. You know his birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks. Just add it. In some cases the rules do not apply to everything, this is one of those cases. Contact your superior or something. , do a search on Google, all these sources are not lying.

• http://www.afropoets.net/tupacshakur.html
• http://www.entertainyourbrain.com/tupacresurrectionrev.htm
• http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Facts.php
• http://www.barrystickets.com/lyrics/tupac-lyric.htm
• http://tupac.rapunderground.net/
• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Lesane+Parish+Crooks&btnG=Search —The preceding unsigned comment was added by License2Kill (talk • contribs) 04:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

These are all fan sites and similar venues. The first link also gives his place of birth as Brooklyn. The second link is a fan review of a movie. The third lists his place of birth as the Bronx. The fourth is a ticket sales site. The fifth is A Rap Underground© Fan Site. In other words, all of these do not meet WP reliable sources criteria. And the last is a search, which we have all done numerous times. We need a source which meets [WP:V]], WP:CITE, and WP:RS. Also, L2K, if you wish to include the Plans at time of death assertion that he was planning to run for office or enter politics, please find a source for that also, one which meets WP:RS. Fan sites, blogs, and so on do not. KillerChihuahua^?!? 10:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Just add it, the rule does not apply for every situation. We all know his name was Lesane Parish Crooks until 1972, when his mom changed it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.228.220.67 (talk • contribs) 14:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm hardly likely to take the unsigned advice of a vandal[9] on matters regarding Wikipedia's accuracy and adequate sourcing for claims. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur

Is that a reputible source?

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 21:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)]

Does this meet standards?

http://www.celebritywonder.com/html/tupacshakur_trivia1.html

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 08:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)]

First, if you are an anonymous user adding information to this page, please put ~~~~ at the end of your comments. This allows us to see when you posted your comment and who you are. Now, on to the important stuff.

As has been repeated by User:KillerChihuahua, fan sites will not work to prove his original name. I'm hesitant to cite the celebritywonder.com information, because it is not sourced and it does not appear to be the most trustworthy. (Example: "When Will Smith won a Grammy Award (in 1997 or 1998) he dedicated it to Tupac and Biggie." [It was 1998].) I'm also hesitant to cite allmusic.com for much the same reason as above. Also, like WP, Allmusic is based on user submissions: "Your corrections and additions to the site are extremely important to us. We receive a tremendous volume of feedback and process it as quickly as we can"; they do, however, say that "every single one of your submissions is individually reviewed and verified by allmusic editorial staff."^[10] What I'm mostly saying is that I don't feel comfortable resting our entire argument on those two sources.

I spent the morning scouring LexisNexus and ProQuest, and here's what I found:

• "Born Lesane Parish Crooks, his mother later changed his name to Tupac Amaru Shakur. As a rapper, the former member of the group Digital Underground used the spelling 2Pac."
• "Born Lesane Parish Crooks in New York, Shakur was the son of two Black Panthers."
• "He was born Tupac Amaru Shakur in the Bronx, NY, on June 16, 1971."
• "[Tupac Shakur] was born Lesane Parish Crooks in Brooklyn in 1971. His mother, Afeni, renamed him Tupac Amaru (Shining Servant) Shakur (Thankful to God) when he was a small child."
• "Born Lesane Crooks on June 16, 1971. His mother changed his name to Tupac Amaru after an Inca Indian revolutionary."
• "The evidence here is that until his death at age 25 in September 1996 2Pac (born Tupac Amaru Shakur) was recording music of a high standard."

So what does that mean? Well... not much, actually. They are all major papers or magazines, so there is no issue with verifiability or reputability, but they also do not agree with each other. Four of the six say his name was changed from Lesane Crooks to Tupac Shakur; the other two say that he was born Tupac Shakur. Presumably each of the sources was fact checked, but the real question is which source is each of those authors using? At this point, I really don't think we're in a position to say whether he was or was not born Lesane Crooks.

I also contacted the New York Department of Vital Statistics and got some questions answered about birth certificates. The short version is that there is no way to tell if the person's name has been changed from his/her birth certificate. The woman I spoke with said that there are records of the person's original name, but we're not in a position to access them. (She also said that you can only change your location of birth if there was a mistake on the first birth certificate—whatever that means.) —Seqsea (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

This has got to be a valid source, because they are following the same regulations.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur

If they accept it no reason you can't.

License2Kill 05:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

We can't cite ourselves, or our sister projects. I don't read German, so this could be totally off, but it doesn't look like they provide a source for their claim to his name, either. If there is a source, though, we could steal it for our own use, as long as it is in English and meets all the other requirements. (It's not that I think he wasn't born with a different name; it's just that I'm not going to put it in the article unless it's verified.) —Seqsea (talk) 19:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

If they can do it why can't we?

License2Kill 20:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Guys I found a source for Lesane Parish Crooks.

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/artistbio.asp?z=y&CTR=101253

The article only states "aka" which we already knew. I'm thinking the best we can probably do is state that 'it has been reported that his birth name was', or some similar wording. His official biography by his mother and his birth certificate make no mention of Lesane Parish Crooks, and I for one would like to know where the name "Crooks" came from to begin with. It wasn't his mother's name nor the name of either of the likely candidates for his biological father. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't recommend using that B&N music site as an authoritative source for this name information. I can't discuss the why-to's and wherefore's on this discussion board, but I would be happy to better explain to KillerChihuaha in private sometime. SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Suggested additions

Here is the interview he says it in

• http://www.2pac2k.de/alleyezonhim.html
• http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Interview~AEOH.php

Also I would like a section to be added that talks about all the colleges (such as Harvard) all around the world that offer classes on him.

And also the Harvard conderence

• http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/04.24/11-hiphop.html

(License2Kill 20:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC))

Added the Harvard Conference to the article.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I would rather see a live TV interview. And BTW if the second one is really a VIBE interview as stated we could cite a VIBE source for that, aren't we? If it is really an article of...
Lajbi 21:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

No, a print interview is far better for our purposes IMHO. I would like to find the original VIBE interview, concur that is a "to-do" for sure. One of us can find the original issue number and date, that should be locatable on the VIBE site I hope.

kudos to L2K for the Harvard link - that is just chock-full of great quotes (cites! yea!) we can use to "flesh out" the article. If you have time, L2K, you want to see what you can do with that? We can do it in a section here on talk, fine-tune it, and move it out to article when done if you'd rather not try writing such a big chunk all by yourself. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

You people doubt everything. THAT IS NOT A FAKE INTERVIEW. Do you really expect him to try and dig up a 10 year old magazine. I am sick of 13 year olds on here acting like they know everything but they were not around when this happened. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.228.220.67 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ad hom attacks are irrelevant. Be civil. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not really a writer, I just want to see this article become a featured article. [[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 04:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)}

Is the source for the original Vibe article needed? I have the book that Vibe released about Tupac, and it includes the interview that is posted in those first two links. I can scan in the pages if necessary. Otherwise, here is a link to the book on Amazon --Itsthinking 02:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you search for "Dogg Pound" in the Amazon book search and go to "Page 59" (it's actually page 79 of the book), you will be able to view the article in its entirety --Itsthinking 02:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes please, no need to scan - just add the book ref as was done for LAbyrinth, and add content and quotes from the interview (as given in the book) as appropriate - thanks! KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Featured Music Project evaluation

Tupac Shakur has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Comprehensiveness - Pictures - Audio - References - Format/Style

The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.

• Comprehensiveness: Very little on influences, style and legacy
• Pictures: Needs fair use rationales
• Audio: None
• References: Insufficient
• Format/Style: Cleanup
• Lead is okay, but it probably needs some work

We got to get this fixed.

Alive Theories

I think this whole new entry is so so inappropriate I can't even explain (there's so much reasons, I could enumerate them all day long). Is there any possibility to speedy delete a section like this without getting into a "revert-war"?? Can we start a voting on it? Imagine what could happen if someone begins to add such a list of "evidences" on every dead men's article... Should we now add Died? into Tupac's infobox (with a question sign) or what?

I think it would be merely enough to have a note at the bottom of the page about fan's belief of he being alive, like in Elvis Presley's article. Or simply ignore it like in Adolf Hitler's (where you can't edit the page on your own, and this kind of idea was voted down on its talkpage, when the case had been brought up).Though there has been a talkpage stuff on this very page too, and someone disproved all the "evidences" with justifiable reasons.

Reconsider all this. Voting stands on 1-0 for delete.

Lajbi 14:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Voting is evil. I have been bold and removed it as unsourced speculation. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Added a couple of sentences to the Theories of the Crime subsection concerning the Alive Theories. Those theories, unfortunately, have no verifiable facts to back them up - just a lot of hocus-pocus forced symbolism and amateur numerology.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It was a silly joke with this voting I suggested. I was curious about hearing other's opinion. That was the main purpose. And I was a bit raged that all these people making edits on Tupac thought seriously that this disputed one fits ans should stay (and even reformatted it). That's all. But I hope other's logic is the same as ours', and won't revert it by their belief.Lajbi 14:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

For the upcoming "fan-like" answers : consider if all these evidences found on later albums and numerology are made by Suge Knight in order to make money of the mytery. He edits all the stuff, including album covers, credits list, previously recorded materials re-cutting sessions, music-videos...etc.Lajbi 15:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the theory still merits inclusion, at least in the form of a sentence, having a whole section on speculation and rumours would be overkill and contrary to the idea of an encyclopedia, however the theory that he is still alive is supported by thousands of fans, and so really needs to be mentioned in this article. This is an unbiased opinion, I believe it is better to be thorough and include every bit of information rather than leaving a vital piece of the 'Tupac legacy' go.

If people still think this is a bad idea, then the category:Dead people rumoured to be living at the bottom of the page should be removed... Sfacets 13:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

That is a logical fallacy - that we do not include rumour, speculation, and unsourced meanderings does not even remotely translate into "we should remove a category." KillerChihuahua^?!? 03:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Article Introduction

I removed this sentence: "He is consistently ranked by uninformed fans, industry outsiders and deaf music critics as the greatest rapper of all time."

I don't think this statement is discussion-worthy. It's deftinitely not NPOV.

Inner City Blues 15:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That was vandalism. I reverted it. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The most idolised and imitated of all time? I haven't seen anyone ranking him as the most imitated... There are hundreds of sources that rank him as one of the greatest of all time, however.69.125.149.243 04:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I have trimmed that assertion from the intro. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Error in Second Shooting?

There seems to be some clashing information in the Second Shooting section.

Shakur was hit four times

Shakur was hit 3 times (including once in the lung)

Which one is right? --Croperz 12:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Unknown, at this point I suggest we look for a source. The article is slowing being cleaned up and sourced, this is one area we haven't gotten to yet. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

question: do any of the editors of this page have, or have access to, LAbyrinth: A Detective Investigates the Murders of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls, the Implication of Death Row Records' Suge Knight, and the Origins of the Los Angeles Police Scandal by Randall Sullivan? KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It is a well known fact that Tupac Shakur was shot 5 times in the first shooting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by License2Kill (talk • contribs) 19:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It may indeed be a "well known fact" but that isn't a verifiable cite.

Checked the book mentioned above out of the library this afternoon, had to drive to the next town to get it (my library didn't have it.) Hopefully I will get some decent data from it. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you don't understand that the rules are not meant to be read word for word. They are meant to be read through the spirit of them. In cases like these were it is a well known fact you just add it, no big debate. It is a well known fact that he took 5 bullets, he says it in his music and if you look at most sources you will know he was shot 5 times. Not every book is correct, just because you read this book and it says something different doesn't mean it is correct. (User: L2K)

We are talking about the second shooting, the one he died from, not the first one, which he may well have taken poetic license with in his lyrics. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Everything needs to be verifiable. That Tupac was shot five times is not well known to someone who isn't familiar with the shooting.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by JDoorjam (talk • contribs) 04:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I could have sworn you were talking about the 1st. LOL sorry. (License2Kill 20:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC))

Heh, 'sok. Remember this when I am confused someday, and be charitable to me! KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

You should add this. These are words from Afeni Shakur.

“The doctor came out and said that 2Pac had stopped breathing 3 times and that they had revived him 3 times and that everytime they revived him he just went back and I asked them to leave him alone and to let him go. I really thought it was important for 2Pac who had fought so hard [voice starts breaking up] to have it this good, I felt it important for his spirit to be allowed to be free... you know and so I rejoice with him and with... [starts crying] with his spirit, I rejoiced then and I rejoice now - when I'm not crying.”

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 04:55, 17 March 2006 (UTC)]

You have a source which meets WP:RS for this? KillerChihuahua^?!? 10:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

For the first time yes,

the book Thru My Eyes http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743457005/102-0346924-7548107?v=glance&n=283155

and it is also said here http://www.alleyezonme.com/2pacinterviews/tupacshakur/2/Afeni_Shakur_On_Tupac_Death.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/celebrity/shakur_BIG/3.html (Court TV)

License2Kill 08:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Alleyezonme is unreliable as a stand-alone source. The book is excellent; was the entire quote in the book? and when did the interview take place, and for which newsmedia was the interview done? In other words, something like "In an interview in Month conducted by Magazine, Afeni Shakur gave her feelings at the time of her son's death: "...

KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It was an interview for that book that was done on TV. If you are a Tupac fan you should pick up the book. I do not know when the interview was done. Will this be added to the article?

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 20:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)}

1. If you are a Tupac fan: Actually, I'm not. I think he was an immensely talented individual who was killed just as he was beginning to realize his potential, and deserves a far better article than the fancruft and inaccurate rumours which are frequently added. As I can find time, I am slowly researching and attempting to improve the article, particularly the sources, which were completely lacking when I started.
2. ...you should pick up the book: I will put it on my list.
3. Will this be added to the article? I won't know until I get the book. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Childhood

This article doesn't discuss Tupac's childhood at all. Considering that his mother believes that an arts program kept Tupac off drugs, shouldn't there be a paragraph or two discussing his youth? JDoorjam Talk 04:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the whole arts program is barely glanced on as well as the rest of his childhood. I've added a "to-do" list. Please discuss and add as appropriate - thanks! KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 20:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)}

Politics

Politics

Tupac has always stated that he would like to be involved in politics. A lot of his music can be classified as 'political rap' and expressed concern about the way the United States was being run.

The fact is Tupac could never run for office because of his criminal record, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be heavily involved in other political aspects such as organizing protests and rallies and supporting other political candidates. Tupac could have started his own political party and had someone else run for office instead of him.

Tupac had a charisma that made people listen to him, he was a born leader and people would have followed him. He knew what the people needed and wanted, and he could have made a difference. He would of made a difference.

I would like to add that.

   * http://www.2pac2k.de/alleyezonhim.html
   * http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Interview~AEOH.php

Those are two sources.

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 05:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)]

Can this be added?

License2Kill!

I see no reason not to add it. Write the section and add it, make sure you can cite what you're adding as much as possible. (I know I've run across other articles that mention his political ambitions. I'll see if I can dig any up when I have a little more time.) —Seqsea (talk) 05:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I see a reason why not: the two sources given are a little questionable. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Come on man you know absolutely nothing, those are actual interviews. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by License2Kill (talk • contribs) 19:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

1. Please remember to sign your posts.
2. Please stop calling me "man" and making ad hominem attacks - see WP:NPA
3. Please see WP:V, specifically the part where WP is not about truth but about verifiability - this is absolutely necessary, else we'd have people posting completely fabricated and erroneous information insisting that "it is the truth!"

KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As I posted above, I have source for those two articles (which are the same article). I posted this in the "Suggested Additions" section, read my post there it will lead you to verifiable sources --Itsthinking 02:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I have replied there. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Tasks

   * Find sources and add for all unsourced material
   * Add section on childhood, early adulthood
   * Add section on music per Featured music:
         o Comprehensiveness: Very little on influences, style and legacy
         o Pictures: Needs fair use rationales
         o Audio: None
         o References: Insufficient
         o Format/Style: Cleanup

We got to get thise stuff fixed. I can add music but I do not know how. [[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 05:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)]

I think we're making good progress, but the Audio, References and Fair Use rationales still need to be addressed. Anyone?SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

New Section: The Early Years

I added a new section called "The Early Years" to cover Tupac's childhood and teenage years, right up to the point where he achieved his first fame as an entertainer ("Same Song" single released on "This is an EP Release" album by Digital Underground). I didn't want to go too deeply into his mother's life in this section (i.e., her birth name, her birth in North Carolina and subsequent move to NY, man-troubles, cocaine problems, Black Panthers, legal battles, etc.) since she has her own article on Wiki. But I think some of it, which I did mention, is important since Tupac's own life was obviously strongly intertwined with and influenced by his mother's life and actions during those early years. I also mentioned that his birth certificate states he was born "Tupac Amaru Shakur". It also states that he was born in Manhattan, NY, which is backed up by his mother's official bio (see article for link).69.125.149.243

Also edited the "Rise to Fame" section. A lot of the info in this section could probably be divided out into another section about his "Legal Problems". Just a thought...69.125.149.243 18:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

While we're at it, I added information to the "After His Death" section, pertaining to the "Tupac Amaru Shakur Records Collection Act of 2005".69.125.149.243 19:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful, thank you so much!. Please register again, seriously. I'd like to have something to call you besides "69.125.149.243". I could call you 69, but I'd probably get in trouble. :P KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, 69 here. I've re-registered now. You know, a section on the investigation of his death might not be a bad idea... there are a lot of claims of conspiracy and incompetence by the police - in particular the Las Vegas PD. Also, whoever keeps changing that intro to read things like "he's the greatest, most imitated, most bestest person the world has ever known" is obviously a very enthusiastic fan, but all that is very subjective, and will keep us from getting Tupac to FEATURED STATUS on Wiki where he belongs. I think all the true Pac fans out here believe he deserves no less from us.SqlPac 03:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That's why I checked out LAbyrinth as mentioned above. I've only had enough time to read 1/2 of the first chapter so far. Life is a little hectic for me right now. KillerChihuahua^?!? 07:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I was watching a news report/documentary about the investigation a while back, and apparently the LVPD refused to interview some potential gang informants and suspects in the shooting; because they didn't want to cooperate with the LAPD's highly regarded (at the time) Compton gang unit. I wish I had taped that show - lot of good information and interviews/quotes by the LVPD and LAPD. BTW, I'm considering putting a graphical timeline of major events in Tupac's life in the article. Are there size limitations, display limitations, or guidelines, etc. for something like that? Thanks. SqlPac 14:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

That might be better as a child article - if you are talking about a linear timeline. See Timeline of computing and Timeline of World War II for two different approaches to presentation and formatting. If you create a timeline, be sure to link to it from this article and vice-versa. KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add a timeline of notable events in Tupac's life, but I'm not too happy with the formats available on Wiki. I'll play around with it and see if I can come up with a format that looks acceptable. In particular, the text on some of these timelines looks like garbage (at least in IE). If you have any tips for making a decent looking timeline, I'd appreciate it... otherwise I'll just play around with it until I find something.SqlPac 02:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Guest Appearances

We have a nice section on Tupac's discography. Can we:

 1.  Display all of the album covers for his albums?
 2.  List all of his 'guest appearances' on other albums to complete his discography?

Just some random thoughts.12.110.196.19 22:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC) [SqlPac]

I'm hesitant to add all of the album covers, because I very much doubt that such a thing is appropriate under Wikipedia:Fair Use. Unless we are going to discuss each one critically on this page, I don't think we can add all of the images. Note that all of his albums do have separate pages which show the album's cover. (Incidentally, most of those articles could do with more discussion of the work, but that's neither here nor there.) As for his guest appearances, I have no opinion, other than that including them could potentially increase the size of the page without actually adding all that much. Seqsea (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Under the doctrine of fair use, as I understand it (and I'm no lawyer), this is 1) an academic endeavor (i.e., not for profit), 2) the digitized album cover is not substantive to the album itself (i.e., we're not providing all of his songs in MP3 format a la Napster), 3) Displaying the album covers in the context of this article does not have an effect on the value of the albums themselves (other than possibly helping to increase sales via free advertising). Does that sound about right? Thanks.SqlPac 02:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Concur, what we need is not more trivia, we need a serious analysis of his music. Guest appearances might end up being listcruft in an already problematic article; I have included his Salt'n'Pepa video appearance because it won a major award, and because at some point I hope to include his dance experience, but would not object to its removal. KillerChihuahua^?!? 16:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm hesitant about analyzing his music too deeply. You're talking a lot of subjectivity anytime you try to analyze or critique art. Even if all you did was cut-and-paste quotes directly from major magazines, subjectivity is still going to show through in which quotes you decide to include or exclude. Or maybe we're talking about different definitions of the word 'analysis'? I think a complete discography would add value to the article, but I understand your position. Some might not be happy with the labeling of Tupac's life's work as "trivia". Can we at least add the complete list of his songs that hit the Top 40 over the years? Never mind, I see that was already done. Thx. SqlPac 00:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[SqlPac]

I agree with KillerChihuahua except, HIS MUSIC SHOULD NOT BE ANALYSED, that is pure opinion. There should be more on his legacy of being the greatest rapper ever. [[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 04:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)]

Tattoos

I have removed a recently added, completely unsourced, possibly un-encyclopedic section on tattoos. My position: Keep it for fan pages. This article does not need another list of trivia. We have nothing on serious, important aspects of his life and death, in an article which is already a little long. If you want to improve the article, help with the "to-do" list above, remembering to add sources per WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:RS]]. If we ever manage to get some of his philosphy in the article, we may incorporate some of his tattoos, as part of the article, not as a list of fancruft trivia. KillerChihuahua^?!? 16:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes and references

I am adding source references and content as I slowly make my way through LAbyrinth; I will be trying to get other books and doing the same. I realize the footnotes are not exactly optimized right now; please bear with me and I will tidy when I've exhausted the book. KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What is LAbyrinth about. Be sure to pick up Holla If Ya Hear Me and Thug Life and Thru My Eyes.

[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 20:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)]

A forgotten concert compilation?

Shouldn't we include a live concert album of the former Death Row artists called Untouchable - A West Coast dynasty, that is a rare one, released possibly by Suge knight, and distributed in Japan? Although it has almost all the same songs from 2pac as the Live at the House of Blues has, but they were recorded elsewhere. As far as I know it also has also a DVD version under the same name. Tracklist:

HMV Japan

1. suge knight - intro
2. danny boy - rock n roll
3. danny boy - slip n side (remix)
4. 2pac - ambitionz az a ridah
5. 2pac - shed so many tearz
6. 2pac - troublesome 96
7. 2pac - hitemup
8. 2pac - tatoo tearz
9. 2pac - all about u
10. 2pac - never call u bitch again
11. 2pac - jodeci interlude
12. 2pac - how do u want it (feat. jodeci)
13. va - chris tucker, eddie griffin and dolomite
14. snoop dogg - i dont hang
15. tha dogg pound - what would u do
16. snoop doog - murder was the case
17. snoop dogg - tha shiznit
18. tha dogg pound - if we all
19. tha dogg pound - bomb azz pussy
20. snoop doog - aint no fun
21. tha dogg pound - new york new york
22. tha dog pound - big pimpin (outro)

Lajbi 01:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I don't see why not. Add it - if someone has a problem with it, they'll let you know.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Legacy

I removed the section called 'Discography', since it's contents were moved elsewhere and it only contained a single sentence (which, BTW, was stated in the Intro as well). I renamed the 'Albums' section to 'Discography'. I've also added a section called Legacy which discusses the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation, the Tupac Amaru Shakur Center for the Arts and the Harvard conference. Although I've edited it down quite a bit, someone will probably want to whittle it down even more significantly. So what's left on the list? Can a brotha get a update? When can we submit this thing to get it on Fizzeatured Stizzatus? Bling Bling baby. SqlPac 02:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I edited the Legacy section down quite a bit. I also reformatted the Singles section with some nice tables in place of that jagged bulleted-list format. BTW, does anyone know what "AUS Charts" are? I thought it might be a typo for US Charts, but wasn't sure (It could be Australian Charts, or something else), so I left it for now. It's in the singles section at the bottom. Can someone verify that "AUS Charts" is correct? Thanks.SqlPac 17:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Little clean-up on the Awards section as well, to make it a little more readable. Thx.SqlPac 17:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Books

Lots of books about him, maybe we should list them in a "Further Reading" section? –Tutmøsis · (Msg Me) 00:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I think we should probably pick the "best of the best" since there are so many books about him. Maybe we could use the Tupac books recognized on best-seller lists as a starting point? At some point we should probably narrow down and clean up some of the other sections, like the Second Shooting section, to make room for some of this additional information that's been asked for...SqlPac 18:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Styles and Influences

I added a section on Styles and Influences. Someone might want to edit it down a little, I see that there are size warnings up there on the page. Also, on another topic, the second shooting section could probably be trimmed down quite a bit. Thx. SqlPac 18:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Birth Name STILL a Problem

Someone added this quote to the article: "It has been reported that his birth name was Lesane Parish Crooks, but reliable sources are lacking, and the origination of this remains unclear." First of all it sounds weaselly. Second of all, who reported it? ("It has been reported"). Per my reading of Wikipedia's policies, it's either "verifiable" or it's not. Whether or not it is "true" does not matter to Wikipedia. This should sound familiar to some of the folks who have been on here for a while: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." As I read the policy, if it can be demonstrated via a "reliable source" that he was born Lesane Parish Crooks, then add it with a note that it was reported by said reliable source. What constitutes a "reliable source"? Since no one else cares to address this issue, I'll put a solid criteria out there for you: For starters, if information has been accepted from that source elsewhere in the article - or on Wikipedia - as reliable, then it should be considered "reliable" here as well. If the information is not reliable here, then all references to information from that source should be stricken from the article and from Wikipedia in general. Personally I don't give a damn if this particular "factoid" is included or not, but either state it as a verifiable fact or get rid of it once and for all.

Bottom line: Source it or Strike it.SqlPac 18:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Bottom line: I strongly disagree. I can easily find many non-reputable sources which give the LPC name: that is precisely the point. It is a widespread rumor and we can address it as such, and have done so. This is not weaseling, this is accurate. I can rephrase to "Some sources, such as (name)[ref] and (name)[ref], have reported... "

I think the key word here is "rumor". Since it's rumor, why not just say "It is rumored that Tupac's birth name was ..."? If it's verifiable, source it and include it. If not, then strike it. I don't care one way or the other, just want to see it done "right" once and for all. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." If it can be verified, add it and source it. Otherwise strike it.SqlPac 03:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

On this subject, who offered to get a good clear image of their jeans label in which that information was presented? KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

If we're going to put it in there, let's be intellectually honest with a simple sentence that reiterates this conversation. Something like "It has been rumored by many non-reputable sources, including (name)[ref] and (name)[ref], that his birth name was ..." The more I think about it, we have a copy of his Birth Certificate that says nothing about "Lesane", "Parrish" or "Crooks". That said, I would think it would take a little more than an entry off Rotten.com, which was probably copied from a Google cache of the original Wikipedia article we're currently editing anyway in order to disprove official government records. If we're going to put this in there, why not quote an author who at least had the intestinal fortitude to put his or her words in indelible ink on hard paper in a book somewhere?SqlPac 02:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

How about that image of his birth certificate? Can we add that? The only image I can get of it is very low quality...SqlPac 16:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Added Theories of the Crime sub-section

I cleaned up the Second Shooting section, and added a sub-section about the Theories of the Crime. I moved the post-shooting theories information to this sub-section. I cleaned it up a little bit, but it could probably use some narrowing-down, as it's pretty long.SqlPac 16:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up some

Cleaned up a lot more now. Added a lot of info to the Legal Troubles section that I ran across while adding sources as well. Here's my thoughts on what we need to do still. Please let me know if you agree/disagree or whatever:

• I think we still need to add a LOT of sources for some of this material (particularly in the Theories of the Crime sub-section). I added some sources for some of the material in other sections.
• Does anyone know how to add "fair use rationales" for the images? If someone could go ahead and do that... that'd be great...
• Audio: can anyone point out what the policies are concerning audio? Can audio be added (MP3 snippets, for instance)? If so, what are the restrictions and policies?

Can someone with more Wiki experience provide some feedback and let us all know if we're close to the point of re-submitting Pac for featured article status consideration? Thanks.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair Use

Added image-side fair use statements to all images in the article. The following text needs to be added (if not already) to each image on the article page:

<!-- FAIR USE of IMAGENAME.jpg: see image description page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IMAGENAME.jpg for rationale -->

For Fair Use Rationale I used this wording:

"This image, IMAGENAME.jpg, is being linked here; though the picture is subject to copyright I (SqlPac) feel it is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:

1. it in no way infringes or assists in the illegal reproduction or distribution of the content of said CD/album;
2. it does not limit the copyright owner's rights to sell the CD/album in any way;
3. the image is of small size and inferior quality/resolution, so that attempts to make illegal print copies of the album artwork would be useless;
4. the image is being used strictly for informational and/or educational purposes;
5. it furthers the goals of providing verifiable information concerning the subject matter, in that it visibly demonstrates content which is referenced explicitly or implicitly within the text of the article itself."

Now we just need to get the article-side fair use tags in place, finish adding sources, maybe add some audio, and we should be good to go.

Let's get this baby done! SqlPac.

Follow-up - I added fair use tags for every image in the article. Now we just need more sources and some audio.SqlPac 00:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I added a boatload of sources to the article now. Y'all can hook up the audio and the remaining sources.SqlPac 01:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Tupak Shakur audio uploads

Disclaimer: IANAL, this is not legal advice.

You can use up to 10%, or up to 30 seconds, whichever is shorter. This is a guideline, not law.

Guidelines for Educational Uses of Music and Fair Use Guidelines For Educational Multimedia states "Up to 10%, but in no event more than 30 seconds", for educational purposes. UMUC also concurs, and provides fair use restrictions for other types media.

Of course, Wikipedia is not an "educational institution" by law. But according to Fair Use of Copyrighted Materials, Wikipedia could qualify for fair use under character (nonprofit) and nature (factual, published).

-- Znode 20:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I got every 2pac and Makaveli album. How do I make 30 second clips? How do I add interviews

License2Kill 04:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Anybody?

License2Kill 04:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

tupac

tupac is one of the geats rapper that very live,he will stay the gearter rapper

elegant. --andrew 01:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

i wouldn't have signed it either.SqlPac 03:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"He was friends with..."

Removed the line "He was Friends with Garret Cooks of New Orleans, La. Both of their relatives were major leaders of the Black Panthers. They both would have been envolved in the Panther Party but decided to go else where."

Most likely he had more than one friend, possibly even more than one in New Orleans, La. Is there anything special about "Garret Cooks" that makes him noteworthy, other than being "da man sittin' next to da man sittin' next to da man?" Speculation about his potential "envolvement" with the Panthers probably needs some sort of source. I.e., did he state this in an interview? For all we know, if he hadn't become a rap superstar he might have gotten "envolved" in politics and become a "U.S. Sinator" or "Sittee Mayer".SqlPac 03:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Good grief, no. Strongly support your attempts to clean out unsourced questionable speculation. I can source that he wanted to get out of Death Row records; that he wanted to "stay home, cook, start a family"; I believe the still-not-located VIBE interview (and he did a total of four, I believe) has some vague political plans mentioned but as we have not located that it is currently a moot point. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There's a book called "Tupac Shakur" put out by Vibe, and produced by Quincey Jones that has a lot of reference material to his interviews with them and other articles and essays they've written about him in the past. I used it as a source in a couple of places.SqlPac

Peer review and/or FAC

Apart from the audio, do you think we're ready for a featured article review? SqlPac 02:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope. The "Huge fan essay" needs to be re-written, trimmed, and re-added (sorry I will do if I can find time or if you can do so please give it a shot, NOT forgetting lots of cites!); acting career needs to be expanded; still missing some sources; and then it may be ready for Wikipedia:Peer review. We may wish to take a step back and evaluate the layout overall prior to that. I'm currently on wikibreak and have extremely limited time, apologies for brevity. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I submitted it as a FAC before I got your feedback. Actually I fixed 90% of what the reviewers asked for. The only things that were left before I withdrew the nomination were to source out the Styles and Influences section and expand on the Legacy section with more 'scholarly' references. Unfortunately a brotha don't got that kind of cash to just go buyin' 4 - 5 scholarly reference books just for this. Heck, even the individual Harvard Conference essays are selling for mucho dinero. So I think I've gone about as far as I'm willing to with this at this point. Best of luck! SqlPac

This Sentence

In the intro: "His music features extensive use of metaphor and shows a high degree of lyrical structure." Is it just me, or does it not fit? It seems like it doesn't really mean anything in particular, but I just want to make sure I haven't been staring at it too long. Maybe mentioning his thug lifestyle in the intro would be a better lead-in to the article? Maybe I'm just tired? SqlPac 03:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Huge Fan Essay

Regarding this reversion "12:02, 14 April 2006 KillerChihuahua (Rm huge Fan essay - source may be useful for briefer content addition)", sorry for adding "huge Fan essay". As mentioned previously, it's difficult to analyze artistic style in a NPOV manner. On the plus side, I see you kept the rest of my edits :) SqlPac

And I thought I'd apologised for not posting here, but I don't see that I did. Early senility... I hope my edit summary made clear that it was just too big and WP:PEACOCK? If not, sorry sorry! KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem, really. You did see the :) at the end right? I just got a little carried away with some of it, typing late at night trying to describe the style and all. Thanks. SqlPac

fac changes

Made changes, including eliminating the gallery of album covers and other images within the article, per the Featured Article Candidate reviewer recommendations. Also combined paragraphs to make them longer per the reviewer comments.SqlPac 17:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Documentary

Documentary section needs to be merged into a respective section. There is no point to this section since its always going to be short and makes the page unbalanced which Im sure on nomination will be brought up. &#150; Tutmøsis (Talk) 01:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually as of yesterday no one brought that up. Someone on here will either fix it, or they won't. At this point, I'm tired of dealing with it. SqlPac 20:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Acting Career

His acting career is barely mentioned. &#150; Tutmøsis (Talk) 02:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That and a bunch of other stuff that everyone keeps griping about, but nøbødy seems to be interested in fixing, right? SqlPac 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

FAC nomination Withdrawn

Under the circumstances I decided to withdraw my nomination of this article as a Featured Article Candidate. If someone else is interested in pursuing it, feel free to look at the reviewer feedback and make whatever changes you see fit. Best of luck! Outta here... SqlPac 20:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Is this singles section complete??

I am aware that it is hard to differentiate between underground remixes and official posthomous duets or collabs, but I found that table of singles still short and as I examined it in details it doesn't include cameos, which are obviously singles by both (or all) the artists participating. There is a single (and video) of 2Pac feat. Richie Rich - "Heavy In The Game" released while alive, and Yukmouth featuring 2Pac - Still Ballin' (video exists with archive footage of 2Pac, single release not sure). How about adding them? Lajbi 22:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok I saw that Notable Features section was eliminated during the nomination process. Anyway if someone feels that these above ones are notable, just give a positive answer here. Lajbi 22:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The reviewers suggested separating out collaborative projects as a separate article. Just FYI.

By the way, I found an official government document that states Lesane Parrish Crooks is one of his "aliases". Not a birth certificate, however, but you should be able to cite it as a source for stating that Lesane Parrish Crooks is one of his aliases. SqlPac 22:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

stinky?

Is any of this factual?--71.225.248.138 00:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not rely on "facts". Under the requirements of Wikipedia, it is all "verifiable". Enjoy.

== 2pac's Discography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ready_2_Die

This is a bootleg and not an official release. I DEMAND this be taken off the discography.

If you want it removed so badly, why not remove it yourself with a comment explaining why? Not really sure what jurisdiction you have to "DEMAND" anything. --andrew 04:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Citation style

First, the lead should be expanded, and two, the text should also be converted to the <ref> system (see WP:FOOTNOTEs) Chubdub 20:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The external link references need to be organized according to {{Cite web}} Chubdub 12:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Why not show everyone just how it's done and fix it Chub? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.149.243 (talk • contribs)

Ah, my apologies. I'll put it on my list of things to do sometime tonight or tomorrow. Jude (talk,contribs,email) 12:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

For the last time, the citation of web pages must be formmatted accordingly:

{{cite web|last= |first= |authorlink= |coauthors= | date= |url= |title= |format= |work= |pages= |publisher= | language= |accessdate= |accessyear= }}

Now will you please stop deleting the clean up tag Chubdub 18:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

No, that is a style, not the only style. "Must" is completely incorrect. And thank you for finally actually posting on the talk page what your objection was/is.

Meanwhile, please feel free to {{sofixit}} as you seem to be the one who has heartburn over this. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not having your resources cited in the proper format (oops, my mistake, "a" proper format) is often a reason for objections when it comes to Featured Articles nominations. Hip Hop is severely under-represented in Wikipedia, and I would like to see this article become a featured article just as any body else. That is the goal for this article if I'm not mistakened. Is it? Chubdub 19:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Citations

I added stuff that needs citations, but I do not understand how to add them. Can someone explain it to me.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by License2Kill (talk • contribs) .

Anybody? License2Kill 20:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow

Looks like folks have gone back to adding paragraphs and paragraphs about "incidentals" like the female that accused him of rape. Sure, the fact that he claimed she gave him oral sex on the dance floor makes good reading, but it doesn't really add much substance. Fact of the matter is she accused him of rape, they went to trial, he was convicted of "forcibly touching her buttocks", for which he received a disproportionate prison sentence. Anyway, if someone wants to finish up the Shakur Timeline at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur_Timeline, please feel free. I'm sure someone would find it useful to add the date that the female in question allegedly performed oral sex on Tupac.

The post-mortem events still need to be added, and possibly some text putting the events in context. I'm through with it. Thanks.

Album Sales!

is there any proof he has sold 73million Bobo6balde66 19:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, among the many sources are Guiness World Book Of Records. He has sold 73 million albums worldwide. The album sales do need to be updated. The RIAA rarely updated album sales. License2Kill 20:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

isn't eminem's worldwide album sales around the same amount?

No, about 20 million less. License2Kill 02:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

eminem is the second-highest sales of any rapper, however, and as he is still alive and able to record new work, he will very probably surpass Tupac's sales at some point. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Not happening

License2Kill

Album sales, charts, awords etc

Hi guys, I think, we should remove all new changes in dates, number of awards, position in charts, if these changes without references. I found few times contradictory information on this page compare with internet sources. So very hard to keep track of new changes. And new changes can be hardly discovered vandalizm. Your opinion? --MoonGod 17:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the puppy concurs - and I have noticed you reverting vandalism and correcting content on this article, it is much appreciated. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Categories

Artist is too vague. Read the Artist article lately? Nothing but a set of links and "art is whatever someone says it is" nonsense.

He should be listed as a Rapper (because he was), Poet (because rap is Rhythmic Accompanied Poetry as grew from the Beat Poet influence in Harlem) and Actor because he was. Blainetologist 17:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

He was a published poet, and is not in American poets category. I will correct that. He is already in the American rapper category. He is not in the artist category or any sub-category. KillerChihuahua^?!? 17:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Intro

The phrase at the front of the article should read "was an American rapper, poet and actor." Blainetologist 18:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The intro is the result of much work and discussion by many editors. I disagree that a change is needed or desirable: Shakur had talents in multiple areas, including song, dance, poetry, acting. Artist is appropriate. Rapper is linked in the last sentence of the first paragraph. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Audio

I have every one of his albums, and I'm working on getting an OGG converter. Does anyone have any suggestions of what to include? Changes, California Love, Hail Mary, I Ain't Mad at Cha, or anything else? And what parts? Thanks, Mysekurity ^[m!] 19:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful! Not being a fan (sorry guys) I cannot say what is most important to include, except that it would be great if we have something from his most popular song ever, preferably the most "recognizable" bit (this is for those who have heard the darn thing but didn't realize it was Tupac) and something which shows a different "side" of him. In other words, if his most popular song is a driving, heavy thug sound, then something softer and more melodic would be good for contrast. Agree, disagree? KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds good. What about Cali Love and Brenda's Got A Baby? I'm also surprised there's not more in here about The Rose That Grew From Concrete. I'll definitely have to add more. For up-tempo songs, possibly Same Song, Hit 'Em Up (it might be nice to include these in their own articles), How Do You Want It, N**** Nature, Panther Power, etc. For slower songs, perhaps Dear Mama, Ghetto Gospel (for a sample of newer music), One Day at a Time/Runnin' (for a mention of Eminem's involvement), Until the End of Time, plus the songs mentioned above. On a related note, does anyone know of a good OGG encoder? Ahh open-source... -Mysekurity ^[m!] 19:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Try Audacity. Lajbi ^{Holla @ me}Who's the boss? 20:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I got Audacity, but it wouldn't convert from WMA (yeah, I know....), so I downloaded the other reccomended converter, dBpowerAMP, and then converted Changes. I've now got it open in Audacity, but what part should I incude? I can also do any other song, should one ask. FA quality, here we come. -Mysekurity ^[m!] 21:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have different convertors, and all albums in mp3, so it's not a problem to create "mix" if needed. --MoonGod 21:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but it's not a problem. I can and have easily converted them to OGG at the same bitrate and frequency, so it should be fine. All I need to know is what song people suggest I use, and what part. I've uploaded a sample of Changes (File:Tupac - Changes.ogg), but tell me if I should add anything more. Thanks, Mysekurity ^[m!] 01:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Warning: this is not a post about the article. You may not believe this.. but I've never heard any of Tupac's songs, to the best of my knowledge. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is. It relates directly to the article, because we need samples to show what his music was like. As for you not hearing any of the songs, check out File:Tupac - Changes.ogg, or e-mail me, and I'll send you something. -Mysekurity ^[m!] 01:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It's very fun to watch, how man, who doesn't hear any Tupac songs, make contributions on this page ;) Respect

PS add Running, RU still down, Letter to ny unborn --MoonGod 20:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

We're only allowed to have a few samples of his work in order to qualify as fair use. I'd say pick two or three (if you don't like the ones I've uploaded), and I'll change 'em. Thanks, Mysekurity ^[m!] 14:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

fbi declassifed record

Is there any mention of material in FBI record on Tupac and his being an object of extortion by JDL. File is very interesting and is available in the FBI electronic reading room of the website under the link researchers.

Addition

Also, what is Tupac's relation with Assata Shakur if their is one. Some websites claim she is his aunt, she is his godmother, some say that she is just friends with his mother.

Filmography section

The Filmograhphy section needs to be placed in a Wikitable (see Nas filmography for an example)Chubdub 16:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

"2006 MTV.Com Poll"

This was not chosen by a poll. This is flase. The show, as you can see in the given citation, was NOT a poll, it was chosen by a group from MTV called the "hip-hop brain trust". In every instance a poll has shown that the people have decided that Tupac is the greatest rapper of all time, not Jay-Z

Name

Sorry if this was already disccused, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

Why is this article titled "Tupac Shakur" instead of "2Pac"? Musicans on wikipedia typically go by there stage name (The Notorious B.I.G., Jay-Z, Nas, 50 Cent etc.) and I don't see why this would be an exception. --Ted87 18:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I came here to ask this same question. You don't see Eazy-E under "Eric Wright." Eminem doesn't redirect to "Marshall Mathers III." This article should be "2Pac," and Tupac Shakur should redirect to it.--Josh 09:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, but 2pac is so close to Tupac we might as well keep it at that, and add his surname for good measure. Maybe if Tupac was still relasing albums under the name 2pac, the article would be named accordingly. Biggie never released anything under "Christopher Wallace", nor was The Massacre released by "Curtis Jackson", suggesting that those aliases are more permanent. Phoenix2 22:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The best rapper of all time!!!

He was the best rapper that ever came out, no one can ever compare to him. He was very intelligent and every word of his touched you. The song pain and shorty wanna be a thug and dear mama to me was his best hits.

Brittany Crawford