Talk:Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear

Rally vs demonstration

I harmonized the two opposing articles (Beck's and Stewart's rallies) by using "rally". This one had "demonstration" added, which in American English implies more than just a gathering, but also marching, usually with police involvement and sometimes arrests. This was hardly a "demonstration", so I removed it as a superfluous and misleading word. Rally is more accurate. My edit was reverted with this edit summary:

"Undid revision 394216330 by Filmfluff (talk) Link is definitely helpful in defining the subject. See WP:LEDE#Links)"

The last part is totally weird and has no bearing on the edit, and I still consider the use of the term "demonstration" in the beginning to be superfluous and misleading. The word "rally" is enough, just like in the Restoring Honor rally article, where, considering the militant nature of the Tea Party movement, "demonstration" might be more appropriate, but "rally" is used. Filmfluff (talk) 20:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Hooray WP:BRD! I apologize for being a little quick on the revert trigger; the lede is acceptable either way, although I still prefer the first version. Since my edit summary was lacking, I'll do my best to justify my opinion here. If "Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear" were a descriptive title, I would be in favor of your version, but I would venture that most pages on WP that have a proper noun as the title have the first sentence in the form: <subject> is a <description> that <reason for notability>. In this particular case, I will also point out that rally is a DAB page: the type we're talking about here ("Political Rally") redirects to, and is a sub-set of Demonstration (people), but it can also be a type of auto racing or a stock market behavior. Mildly Mad^T_C 20:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

But the word "rally" isn't wikilinked, and "demonstration" is rather misleading. There were no confrontations as is usual with demonstrations, where both sides often confront each other and the police get involved. If anything it was about as peaceful as a picnic. There is only one other (and unreferenced) use of the word demonstration in the article. It is overwhelmingly (43 times) described as a "rally". Filmfluff (talk) 21:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. For the record, I'm not particularly attached to the word "demonstration", but I think it is a definite improvement to the article to have a link to the article about what it is. If the main objection is that "demonstration" is too general, perhaps, at the risk of being a little redundant, we could use Political rally (which unfortunately redirects to Demonstration (people))); that's the reason "demonstration" was originally added. Otherwise, if we want to keep the language introduced by Filmfluff, we could simply use "The Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear took place on..." Mildly Mad^T_C 22:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

If the choice is to keep the word "demonstration", then it should also be added as a descriptor to the lead of the Restoring Honor rally article. Filmfluff (talk) 21:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I was originally turned off by the use of "demonstration", but after reading Demonstration (people), I have to agree that is what both rallies were. Both events had other elements of a demonstration, such as a large number of signs brought by the participants. A non-violent rally is one of the types of demonstrations listed in the linked article. I suggest we make the change in both rally articles. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to correct a statement above, the Restoring Honor rally did not have signs brought by the participants. We have many sources that describe the events as rallies - that's how they were advertised. Do we have many sources describing them as a demonstration, or is that just a label we're applying based on the general definition. I don't have an issue with the word, but if we're going to put it in the lead, we should have something to back it up, since the term can have a negative connotation. Morphh ^(talk) 14:23, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

More on the general definition (e.g. to distinguish it from Rallying). "Demonstration" is perfectly appropriate here; a rally is a type of demonstration. Merriam-Webster defines a demonstration as "a public display of feelings towards a group or cause"; Demonstration (people) and Wiktionary are much the same. None of them make any mention of whether the people are moving, bring signs, or get arrested. In short, "demonstration" is not strictly a synonym for "protest" or "march". Mildly Mad^T_C 15:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Beck Rally

The crowd size at the Beck rally is enormously contested, and therefore no number should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.148.208 (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It's contested by Beck and Bachmann. The real numbers are safe to include. --Muboshgu (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It's actually contested by more than just Beck and Bachmann...try doing a little research first. TforTwo214 (talk) 22:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit Request Add Satellite Imagery to External Links Images

Geoeye has posted a Satellite Image of the rally capturing almost the entire crowd it should be added to the article to give a sense of scale http://www.geoeye.com/CorpSite/gallery/detail.aspx?iid=327&gid=1 --65.217.222.254 (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I've added it as an external link. Unfortunately, he Geoeye terms of use are not acceptable for including the image directly in the article per WP:NONFREE. —UncleDouggie (talk) 13:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

link to other website in article?!?

airphotoslive.com has a link to there website in the first paragraph of this page. I didn't think wikipedia allows links to other websites in the article. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.86 (talk) 13:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Unprecedented Success Of Rally

Need a new paragraph on what a great success the rally was. Just 72 hours after the rally the people voted overwhelmingly to restore sanity...72.209.63.226 (talk) 17:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like original synthesis to me. Do you have any reliable sources to back it up? Also, please remember that Wikipedia is not a forum. Mildly Mad^T_C 00:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

As you can see by the edits done by that IP, this is a Republican possibly Tea Partier trying to inject political discussion to rile things up. That's why I've removed the comment more than once. This is talk page vandalism. --Muboshgu (talk) 00:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I realize that. Just hoping that some judiciously applied sanity (heh) and over-the top WP:AGF will scare him away :-) If it continues, I'm all in favor of pursuing other actions. Mildly Mad^T_C 00:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Excerpts from closing speech

Two edits today removed and subsequently re-added the excerpts from Stewart's closing speech (relevant guidlines: WP:NOFULLTEXT and WP:NONFREE). IMO the article should mention something about the speech because it sums up the rally and Stewart's intents quite nicely, but there's probably too much of the text replicated there right now, without much supporting text. It would serve the article better to quote a few choice sentences and add some (sourced?) prose that describes what he said and made references to. I'll try to write something up later this evening. Mildly Mad^T_C 19:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

While the present content under review violates neither WP:NOFULLTEXT or WP:NONFREE in its present state, I agree it could probably be reduced further and made more concise. I'll see if I can find some sourced prose as well. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with the removal, it does seem to be a rather large quote/cut and copy portion of a transcript. Off2riorob (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Here's a few sources that may be useful. (question: are blogs from large news organizations considered WP:RS?)

• CBS News Story
• NY Times Story
• Time Magazine - Blog
• Forbes - Blog
• MTV Story

I'm not sure if any of these are already in the article. Mildly Mad^T_C 21:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The two blogs post - it depends if the publication is taking any editorial control and who they are and what they are discussing, without editorial control its WP:selfpub. Off2riorob (talk) 21:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Please read the peer review that was done a few weeks ago. The reviewer raised concerns about the inclusion of so much text. I want to nominate this article for GA status down the road, so it should be cut down from what it was. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:06, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Why not just revert it back to how it was originally added, and if you want or feel its needed expand a little with another couple of citations. Off2riorob (talk) 23:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. I feel like it needs a little expansion from that, but it would be a great starting point. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I would give it 24hours to allow interested parties to comment prior to making the edit, regards. Off2riorob (talk) 23:46, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I hope you all understand at this point that, meanwhile, the article should go without the text. That we didn't wrote the section yet is no excuse for duplicating the whole copyrighted text here. It like keeping some song's complete lyrics on a wiki page while we wait someone to write a real article about it.--Damiens.rf 01:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

• I've reported this here. Dreadstar ☥ 01:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Aw man, it got protected while I was in the middle of fixing it :-( I think the parties have agreed to stop the edit war, anyhow. Or not... Mildly Mad^T_C 01:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, unintended consquence. But it will help if this user continues to edit war on this article once protection has expired. Dreadstar ☥ 02:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Change

Here's a start, that I can't put on the page anymore:

Stewart closed the rally with a "moment... for some sincerity" to explain his intentions for the rally:

This was not a rally to ridicule people of faith, or people of activism, or look down our noses at the heartland, or passionate argument, or to suggest that times are not difficult and that we have nothing to fear. They are, and we do.

He spoke of the role the press plays in polarizing political debates, stating that the media ("The country’s 24-hour politico–pundit perpetual panic 'conflict-inator'") amplifies problems and no longer makes a distinction between "hav(ing) animus" and "be(ing) enemies". He warned that demonizing opponents and accepting propaganda makes people "less safe, not more" and that "it is an insult, not only to those people, but to the racists themselves who have put in the exhausting effort it takes to hate."

Much of the speech was devoted to the idea that "(m)ost Americans don’t live their lives solely as Democrats, Republicans, liberals or conservatives." He spoke on the subject of "reasonable compromises" between persons of different beliefs, citing as an example traffic merging at the entrance to the Holland Tunnel connecting New York City and Jersey City.

Unless anyone objects, I plan on putting this in to the article when it gets un-protected. Please leave comments, insights, ideas, etc. Mildly Mad^T_C 01:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I was going to suggest something that keeps the Holland Tunnel metaphor in the page. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
• Comment – I'm the one who created the initial version of the speech extract. I originally considered an approach similar to what Mildly Mad has proposed here, but I decided to go with the quote in the end to avoid WP:SYN issues. I choose the most moving passages that can be understood without a lot of explanation. The version prior to the edit war, slightly expanded from my original, was 471 words out of 1389 words in the full closing speech, which is 34%. That does seem like a lot. However, I believe that when comparing all quotes in the article to the full two hour rally, the ratio is more than acceptable for fair use. We have significant commentary about all aspects of the rally in other sections. It's not right to judge just because we put the closing extract in a separate section to aid user navigation linked to a reference of only the closing speech transcript. Would it be better to use a reference for the entire rally transcript to make the word percentage police happy? There is a slippery slope here in which it becomes impossible to quote any full sentence because that sentence is 100% of the source material. We need some sanity. I'm willing to compromise of course; I just wanted to explain the big picture for others. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

  We could also ask for permission if people are so worried about it. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

It would help the discussion if you refrained from referring to users that are applying policy and guidelines in a more restrictive interpretation than you interpret it without referring to them in ways, such as "word percentage police" Off2riorob (talk) 10:02, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I feel like 34% isn't a concern in terms of copyright violation (though as I said at the request for aid page, I certainly do not know copyright law), but I agree with the concerns of the peer review that it was too much, just from a Wikipedia point of view. Maybe something between the original version and the proposed change would work. I certainly feel the proposed change cuts too much out, although it is a great start. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Free-use claim

I have requested assistance with determining how much of the quote is acceptable to use. —UncleDouggie (talk) 14:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I have requested permission for the entire closing speech. If they agree, we can then decide how much to use. If not, we can still use whatever we find reasonable per fair-use. —UncleDouggie (talk) 05:52, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

What exactly have you asked them? to release the speech under a commons license? I would also point out that private conversations with you via any method, email or telephone are an incorrect method of reliable release, you should direct then to OTRS. Off2riorob (talk) 10:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I followed the guide! —UncleDouggie (talk) 10:20, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, best of luck with that. Off2riorob (talk) 10:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

In the case they agree to release it, wouldn't it be best fit for Wikisource? The article on the Sermon on the Mount does not includes the whole text, and I believe this is the right way to write an encyclopedic article. --Damiens.rf 15:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, there is no reason or common practice that we host large speeches from people in articles where Wikisource would be much more correct. Off2riorob (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lemurbaby (talk · contribs) 17:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

• Thanks for your hard work on this article. It shouldn't take much to get it to GA standards. Let's start with the references where I indicated they are needed. Lemurbaby (talk) 17:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Wow, that was a much quicker start to the GA review than I expected. OK, I've added references where you tagged. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
• In the Announcement section, the timeline isn't quite clear in terms of when and in what context the announcements were made. Also there is some word repetition in this section that could be reduced by using some different vocab. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Done (?) I took a stab at adding a bit more info, I think I also eliminated some of the repetitive language. Mildly Mad^T_C 12:50, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
    • That prose looks much better. I'm not sure if it's clear to the casual reader, though, that the "corresponding" or "subsequent" Colbert Report episode refers to the fact that the Daily Show and Colbert Report air back-to-back. I tried to make it a bit more clear. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
• There are a few dead refs in the article. If the information they reference can be found in any of the other sources you've included, it would be preferable to go ahead and reallocate the info to one of the other sources. Then I'd like to see all of these sources archived using something like WebCite (using the archiveurl= and archivedate= fields in the reference template) so future readers of the article can be guaranteed access to these online sources in the future. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Dead refs:

The Associated Press: Obama backs Jon Stewart's sanity rally on Oct. 30

Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert rally allows Americans to revel in satire

Thousands descend on National Mall for Stewart's and Colbert's 'Sanity' rally

In election's shadow, rally draws laughs, activism

Dead refs have been replaced. I'll check out the prose now. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear NOT satirizing Restoring Honor Rally

The demand for hotels during the period of the Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear outpaced that of the "Restoring Honor" rally.

Since this rally was not satirizing Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally, I have moved the above quote to the talk page for discussion. It has nothing to do with the article, and there is no comparison. It would be like comparing the annual March for Life to the Girl Scouts of America's annual Rock the Mall. As such, I have removed it from the article for the time being. —141.152.28.107 (talk) 13:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The above sentence does not convey that one rally was satirizing the other. Are you saying that reliable sources did not draw comparisons between the two rallies? Xenophrenic (talk) 16:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No, of course not. However, seeing as how the two rallies ostensibly had nothing to do with one another, I'm not really seeing why the comparison is being made, yeah? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.152.28.107 (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

WSWS response removed?

Given that Stewart made specific reference to Marxists in the rally, why is the response of leading Marxist news source "not important" to the article? It's unbalanced to only report on the response of right-wing pundits. --Nixin06 (talk) 17:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Not every response is worth including here, or else this page would balloon to astronomical proportions. A biased site like the WSWS is a good example of one to avoid. Bill Maher's criticism gets the point across of the criticism of "non-partisanship" from this rally, and he has a large enough platform to be worth including. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Only including Maher implies that everyone on the left thought this was fine. If you had used another left-wing critic of Stewart, then I wouldn't raise the complaint. --Nixin06 (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The WSWS' critique seems to be the belief that the rally promoted a false equivalency between the left and the right (something Stewart himself denied in the Rachel Maddow interview), which is exactly what Bill Maher criticized the rally of, so that point of view has already been included in this article. So... what does including the WSWS' criticism really add to this article? PerryPlanet (talk) 22:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, for that matter, what is this "unbalance" you speak of, where we "only report on the response of right-wing pundits"? I don't see a single right-wing pundit quoted in this thing. PerryPlanet (talk) 23:06, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Metro record comparing Rally breaking Desert Storm Record with normal saturday service

The rally broke the DC Metro light rail service's ride record, besting a record made by the Desert Storm ... Could it be made clear, first, that there was a difference in service, that, like for the Beck rally, that the Metro service for the Desert Storm parade was basically "full service", with, for instance, all operating cars in service, whereas for the Rally to Restore Sanity, the Metro service was the same for any average saturday, roughly half service. So with the level of service, and number of cars designed to serve 350,000 rides, 825,437 rides were made. Also, apparently car traffic was also, if not record breaking, certainly boosted enough to merit a mention.TeeTylerToe (talk) 20:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)