User talk:Lightbreather

Kaffeeklatsch discussions

Kaffeeklatsch request to close

Nice idea, but not at Wikipedia. Things are going reasonably well at the moment, so why erect a target to inflame the situation? Please close it down before the inevitable WP:MFD because those pages cannot be reconciled with standard procedures. Johnuniq (talk) 23:17, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, I disagree. Lightbreather (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Kaffeklatsch is a good idea, too. — kikichugirl ^speak up! 01:23, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kaffeeklatsch pledge

Hi Lightbreather, I left this comment on the Kaffeeklatsch page, but I haven't signed the pledge yet, so I've moved it here. Sorry about that.

I noticed that the Systers email list asks subscribers to confirm "that you are a woman". Perhaps it's best to leave it there, and people will identify with that statement or not. I wouldn't include the issue of user preferences being set to she, sexual orientation, or whether someone has joined a certain category. I can't see that those matter for this. Just my opinion. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 03:43, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin, I hope that my "Response" below explains my thinking better. For a group in my user space, the pledge seems reasonable. If the proposed WikiProject Women group gets going, with WMF resources and guidance, maybe a better way to do this will be devised. Lightbreather (talk) 02:21, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I was concerned with the pledge, especially parts 2 and 3, but had trouble finding the words for it. Here are my thoughts now that I have had some time to gather them.

Line 1: I am a woman (cisgender or trans-woman, of any sexual orientation) is a big improvement from its previous form, but isn't totally inclusive of intersex persons or female-sexed persons with non-binary gender (agender, intergender, genderfluid, etc.).
Line 2 requires that participants out themselves as females by being in the Category:Female Wikipedians. Why is this a requirement? Is not participation in the Kaffeeklatsch outing enough?

I understand that the project wants to encourage women to come out of invisibility and make their presence more, well, visible, but revealing any degree of personal information, including age, sex, gender, location, name, etc, and the method of revealing it, should always remain the choice of the person themselves, and not be requirement to join any group, especially when that group is the only women-only on-wiki space available.

Line 3 requires that participants set their Internationisation user preference to "She edits wiki pages." Again, why? To alter some number to make female presence more visible in statistics? Again, this should be a suggestion only. I fail to understand why this is relevant to participation in the Kaffeeklatsch. As said, there probably are more women than just me who have left it at "prefer not to say" for reasons other than fear of sexism or harassment. For myself, it's because of my native tongue and culture. --Pitke (talk) 13:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pitke, see my "Response" below. But I have a question for you: Are your native tongue and culture genderless? If so, cool! Lightbreather (talk) 02:26, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would sign the pledge, as I am a woman editor who greatly appreciates this effort, but I do not want to identify myself as a woman via preferences or categories. Ongepotchket (talk) 10:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Ongepotchket. Maybe if the WikiProject Women proposal gets off the ground, with WMF resources and guidance, a better way to do this will be devised. Lightbreather (talk) 02:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No and also Hell no. I'm one of the "they" sorts and that won't change. It's a safety issue. Montanabw^(talk) 00:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Montanabw, do you believe an editor who sets their user preference to "She edits," or who joins the "Female Wikipedians" category, is less safe than other editors? If so, in what way do you mean? For instance, on Wikipedia, or in real life, or what? Lightbreather (talk) 01:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Response

Why ask those who would like to join the Kaffeeklatsch to change their user preference to "She edits wiki pages," and add their username to the category "Female Wikipedians"?

The objective is to have a women-only space on Wikipedia as a place first and foremost for women to feel safe - a refuge. I have based the idea on the Anita Borg Institute's Systers list. Although the groups would be similar in their goals - a safe place for women to talk about tech (Systers) and Wikipedia (Kaffeeklatsch) - their framework is different. The Systers group has been active for over 20 years. The Kaffeeklatsch is a test group while the WikiProject Women proposal is under consideration at the IdeaLab.

When a person registers an account on Wikipedia, they have to give a username, which does not have to be their real name, and... that's it. You don't have to give your real name. You don't have to give an email address. You don't have to state your gender. However, as we all know, gender does end up being divulged, intentionally or otherwise. The editing environment is hostile, which feels unsafe to a lot of women, and little is done about it, nor is little likely to be done about it in the near future.

When a person subscribes to the Systers list, they must be approved by a moderator. They give their email address and their name, and they have to 1) tell their involvement in tech (1-2 sentences suffice), 2) say that they are a woman, and 3) say that they have read and agree to the list's rules (a lengthy set). Then the person's request is evaluated by a moderator, and the email address is confirmed. This process goes a long way toward assuring the list members that they're safe. This process has been successful in making and keeping Systers a valued place for women in tech for a long time.

I don't think those who want to join this group should have to share their real names and email addresses. However, I do think that asking them to make a small sacrifice for the peace of mind of other group members is reasonable. If it is more important to a woman Wikipedian to keep her user preference set to something other than "She edits wiki pages," or not to join the category "Female Wikipedians," than it is to be a part of the group, there is still the Teahouse to reach out to for support. But for women who are members of the group, there is some comfort in knowing that other members of the group are "out" as women on all of Wikipedia, and not just for access to the group.

At any rate, as I said, this is only a test group for now, and it is to be hoped that the IdeaLab proposal may get off the ground, and then perhaps there will be better ways of managing membership. Lightbreather (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fat quarters and eighths

Following on from the AfD, I've added a new section Yard#Textiles_and_fat_quarters. PamD 11:32, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 15:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PC Reviewer

Hello. Your account has been granted the "pending changes reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on pages protected by pending changes. The list of articles awaiting review is located at Special:PendingChanges, while the list of articles that have pending changes protection turned on is located at Special:StablePages.

Being granted reviewer rights neither grants you status nor changes how you can edit articles. If you do not want this user right, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time.

See also:

Wikipedia:Reviewing, the guideline on reviewing
Wikipedia:Pending changes, the summary of the use of pending changes
Wikipedia:Protection policy#Pending changes protection, the policy determining which pages can be given pending changes protection by administrators. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Female/Feminist Perspective might be helpful in this Meta Rfc

Hi, LB, and Happy New Year to you.

I suggested at this Request For Comment here on Meta that it might benefit from Female/Feminist input. Besides your own early contribution (for which you have my thanks), two other overt feminists, CarolmooreDC and Neotarf, put in significant input at the debate's earlier forum (here), and CarolmooreDC helped implement its now disputed decisions in several locations, but CarolmooreDC and Neotarf are no longer with us, so I was wondering if you might perhaps wish to at least consider giving a feminist perspective instead of them? There may be other feminists already contributing there, but this is not entirely clear (at least not to me). But obviously if you feel it would be too much hassle, or whatever, please ignore this request.

Incidentally, I had contributed to earlier versions of the debate (first here, and then here and here), but I was not even aware of the renewed debate until its conclusions (which I mostly support) got disputed 2 months later, and in any case I am in no position to give a female or a feminist perspective, since I am neither female nor a feminist (as distinct from an occasional sympathizer with some parts of the feminist perspective on a case-by-case basis).Tlhslobus (talk) 03:08, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, LB. Tlhslobus (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Voluntary, indefinite IBAN between HIAB and LB

If he's interested, I'm still open to a voluntary, indefinite IBAN between myself and Hell in a Bucket. Lightbreather (talk) 01:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Samantha Bayarr

Hi, I got your name off the Teahouse hosts page. Would you be able to help User:Samantha Bayarr? It has to do with edits to Amish romance. If you think they are OK and that I was over zealous in removing stuff then I'm fine with that. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 18:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

DRN needs assistance

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Possible canvassing

Please take it somewhere else, guys.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hello Lightbreather. I was looking at your contributions and you seem to have sent the same IdeaLab to a good amount of people, and that doing this seems to have the visual representation of canvassing. There doesn't seem to be a pattern on the amount of people that you are notifying. Are these people from the gender gap wikiproject? Great, just do a small notification there. However, single notification to all those editors seems to be violating WP:VOTESTACKING and is also mass posting. I would appreciate it that if you stop doing this, as even if it isn't canvassing it leads to the imagery of canvassing and is just in general, inappropriate. Tutelary (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I've read what you wrote and started a related discussion on my idea proposal discussion page. If you have more to say, please take it there. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 01:06, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Oh dear, LB. It looks like you are suspected of being 'guilty' of being open, honest, and transparent, which seems to be a mortal sin in Wikipedia :) Maybe next time you should do as common sense suggests most or all of the other Wiki-factions probably do (although obviously, this is inherently incapable of either proof or disproof, and me even speculating about it is doubtless a deplorable violation of everything from WP:AGF and WP:CABAL perhaps even all the way to Wikipedia's First Commandment), and just send your friends and allies Private Messages either through Wikipedia's own Private Message system, or through private e-mails outside of Wikipedia altogether, or maybe through some Facebook page, or Yahoo Discussion Group (or whatever), in which only your favourite WikiFeminists are invited to participate. (Incidentally, that of course rules me out since I've already mentioned previously that I'm not a feminist, as distinct from an occasional sympathiser). If you or any other WikiFeminist were to do so (probably preferably without my knowledge, and on the admittedly not-especially-likely assumption that you and/or other WikiFeminists haven't done so already), I'd wish you the best of luck if I could (though this would presumably be impossible as I wouldn't know about it), though you might be advised to check with Wikilawyers before openly admitting to perpetrating such a possible Wikisin and/or Wikicrime, "as even if it isn't canvassing it" might lead "to the imagery of canvassing and" might be "just in general, inappropriate". Oh dear, I wonder will I now be banned for life (or even worse) after being found 'guilty' of being open, honest, and transparent (not to mention the possibly even worse Wikicrime of openly taking Wikipedia's Gender Equality objectives seriously instead of merely paying lip service to them) by writing this here instead of sending it to you by Private Message?. Regards, and best of luck. Tlhslobus (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Your sarcasm is not appreciated. The canvassing guideline is very clear about mass notifications and notifications and messages sent to only one side of the argument. What I see in Lightbreather's messaging is that she's informing only women about the notification, and not only that, but I can't discern where she's getting this list. Is she just going throughout the entire category of 'Women wikipedians' and notifying them? There are far more within that category and it also seems she was going through alphabetical order in that, so that can't be it. So where is she getting this list to notify? Again, it just appears that it's possible she's informing people she knows will !vote the way she wants in that proposal. Additionally, since general arbcom sanctions are active for the gender gap in general, this could be a violation if it's indeed canvassing. Tutelary (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Please feel free to call it sarcasm or anything else if you want. As far as I'm concerned what I said was basically the self-evident truth (apart from some mild and doubtless foolish attempts at slightly surreal humor), so I prefer to call it truth, honesty, and realism. But in any case I wasn't talking to anybody except LB. And if she's in violation, it's a violation of a somewhat absurd and unenforceable law, since all she has to do is canvas by Private message/e-mail, etc, probably just like every other faction (and as I expect I would do myself if I ever felt the need to join some faction), which is presumably what she will do from now on if she wants to do any more canvassing. Similarly you and I are arguably both currently also in violation of another somewhat absurd and unenforceable law (WP:AVOIDYOU), since you said 'your' and I said 'you'. It all seems just another part of the absurdity that is such an integral part of Wikipedia's consensus system of government which makes it almost impossible to get rid of foolish rules. But anyway I've no wish to pursue this discussion with you any further, for fear of unnecessarily risking escalating a pointless dispute. So provided any reply you care to make is not unduly provocative, I propose to quit this discussion, leaving you to avail of the opportunity to have the last word should you wish to do so. Regards, farewell, and have a nice day. Tlhslobus (talk) 07:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] That would be off site canvassing, and could be even worse in terms of violations of the policy. Also, it may be seen as attempting to game the system. Tutelary (talk) 08:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Incidentally, LB, where is your above-mentioned idea proposal page? (Note: I composed and then added my above comment before noticing your above reply to Tutelary).Tlhslobus (talk) 01:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please take it somewhere else, guys.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hello Lightbreather. I was looking at your contributions and you seem to have sent the same IdeaLab to a good amount of people, and that doing this seems to have the visual representation of canvassing. There doesn't seem to be a pattern on the amount of people that you are notifying. Are these people from the gender gap wikiproject? Great, just do a small notification there. However, single notification to all those editors seems to be violating WP:VOTESTACKING and is also mass posting. I would appreciate it that if you stop doing this, as even if it isn't canvassing it leads to the imagery of canvassing and is just in general, inappropriate. Tutelary (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've read what you wrote and started a related discussion on my idea proposal discussion page. If you have more to say, please take it there. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 01:06, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear, LB. It looks like you are suspected of being 'guilty' of being open, honest, and transparent, which seems to be a mortal sin in Wikipedia :) Maybe next time you should do as common sense suggests most or all of the other Wiki-factions probably do (although obviously, this is inherently incapable of either proof or disproof, and me even speculating about it is doubtless a deplorable violation of everything from WP:AGF and WP:CABAL perhaps even all the way to Wikipedia's First Commandment), and just send your friends and allies Private Messages either through Wikipedia's own Private Message system, or through private e-mails outside of Wikipedia altogether, or maybe through some Facebook page, or Yahoo Discussion Group (or whatever), in which only your favourite WikiFeminists are invited to participate. (Incidentally, that of course rules me out since I've already mentioned previously that I'm not a feminist, as distinct from an occasional sympathiser). If you or any other WikiFeminist were to do so (probably preferably without my knowledge, and on the admittedly not-especially-likely assumption that you and/or other WikiFeminists haven't done so already), I'd wish you the best of luck if I could (though this would presumably be impossible as I wouldn't know about it), though you might be advised to check with Wikilawyers before openly admitting to perpetrating such a possible Wikisin and/or Wikicrime, "as even if it isn't canvassing it" might lead "to the imagery of canvassing and" might be "just in general, inappropriate". Oh dear, I wonder will I now be banned for life (or even worse) after being found 'guilty' of being open, honest, and transparent (not to mention the possibly even worse Wikicrime of openly taking Wikipedia's Gender Equality objectives seriously instead of merely paying lip service to them) by writing this here instead of sending it to you by Private Message?. Regards, and best of luck. Tlhslobus (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your sarcasm is not appreciated. The canvassing guideline is very clear about mass notifications and notifications and messages sent to only one side of the argument. What I see in Lightbreather's messaging is that she's informing only women about the notification, and not only that, but I can't discern where she's getting this list. Is she just going throughout the entire category of 'Women wikipedians' and notifying them? There are far more within that category and it also seems she was going through alphabetical order in that, so that can't be it. So where is she getting this list to notify? Again, it just appears that it's possible she's informing people she knows will !vote the way she wants in that proposal. Additionally, since general arbcom sanctions are active for the gender gap in general, this could be a violation if it's indeed canvassing. Tutelary (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to call it sarcasm or anything else if you want. As far as I'm concerned what I said was basically the self-evident truth (apart from some mild and doubtless foolish attempts at slightly surreal humor), so I prefer to call it truth, honesty, and realism. But in any case I wasn't talking to anybody except LB. And if she's in violation, it's a violation of a somewhat absurd and unenforceable law, since all she has to do is canvas by Private message/e-mail, etc, probably just like every other faction (and as I expect I would do myself if I ever felt the need to join some faction), which is presumably what she will do from now on if she wants to do any more canvassing. Similarly you and I are arguably both currently also in violation of another somewhat absurd and unenforceable law (WP:AVOIDYOU), since you said 'your' and I said 'you'. It all seems just another part of the absurdity that is such an integral part of Wikipedia's consensus system of government which makes it almost impossible to get rid of foolish rules. But anyway I've no wish to pursue this discussion with you any further, for fear of unnecessarily risking escalating a pointless dispute. So provided any reply you care to make is not unduly provocative, I propose to quit this discussion, leaving you to avail of the opportunity to have the last word should you wish to do so. Regards, farewell, and have a nice day. Tlhslobus (talk) 07:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be off site canvassing, and could be even worse in terms of violations of the policy. Also, it may be seen as attempting to game the system. Tutelary (talk) 08:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, LB, where is your above-mentioned idea proposal page? (Note: I composed and then added my above comment before noticing your above reply to Tutelary).Tlhslobus (talk) 01:34, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

I am appreciative.

--FeralOink (talk) 01:03, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Consult

Is insulting a religion counted as personal attack to the followers of that religion? How about if some one insult the religion in whole? such as saying: "I don't care about your beliefs about degenerate religious thinking!" or "all religious texts are fictional". Mhhossein (talk) 16:54, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think to belittle someone because of their religious belief - or because they're atheist or agnostic - is rude, but I'm not sure why you're asking me. My opinion on the matter doesn't carry special weight here. Lightbreather (talk) 17:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Background @Mhhossein: Usually I don't mind what people's religion are, but when you use it as a tactic to disrupt Wikipedia, you lose all entitlement to pretend to be insulted. Wikipedia exists to disseminate knowledge. Not to support the Iranian dictatorship or any other church-state.--Anders Feder (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to know your opinion because you have regarded "No personal attacks" as one of your favorites. As you see, I meant to consult you! Oh thanks Anders Feder for participating the discussion. He made it easier now! Mhhossein (talk) 13:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	For no particular reason... Also, I've added your name to the hosts whose names appear on HostBot invites, per your request at the lounge. Keep up the persistence, - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 01:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

== Thanks for the suggestion to add the category "Female Wikipedian" to my user page. I have done this. Kmccook (talk) 00:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nowiki

Instead of using a nowiki tag, place a colon (:) in front of the category part of a cat link. like this It will link to a category without adding the page to it. The same works for files. I hope this helps --Guerillero | My Talk 00:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I assumed there was a way to do it, but if I ever knew how, I'd forgotten. Lightbreather (talk) 00:20, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I have to look it up every few months to figure out how to do it for some discussion or another. --Guerillero | My Talk 00:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tban

Hey, are you completely sure that its over? I left a message for Callanecc to confirm its expiration, but I'd hate for either of us to blow it by one day or just hours. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 22:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our notices were dated July 14 and were for six months, so unless Wikipedia has some non-standard definition of what constitutes six months, I should think the ban is over. If not, I hope the powers that be assume good faith on my part. Lightbreather (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, fair enough, that's how I arrived a the January 15 date that I posted on my Talk page. But with various editors in various time zones and such, you never know how someone is going to interpret something. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

So AGF, nice edits on the Gun Show Loophole article. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 22:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A pie for you!

Hey LB, now that we're free of our "restraints", I wanted to thank you for something. I realize that we had a rocky start, our ups and downs, and it appeared like you genuinely despised me at times, but looking for a positive side to this whole experience, I wanted to say that as a result I've learned more about Wikipedia in 2014 than I ever expected. It seems that we've both experienced a learning curve of sorts, but this would not have happened without you.

I'm sorry for all of the angst and stress that resulted and I believe that you were on the receiving end of some undeserved negative efforts, but as a regular User I have little or no power to do anything about it.

That said, thank you again and I wish you well in 2015! Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Scal. Lightbreather (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SPI Investigation

You indicated you are not afraid of a check user. Would you volunteer that it be done then on the SPI noticeboard? If a check user comes to nothing then my sincere apologies for wasting valuable time of you and others. The coinciding of edits does seem very suspicious and seeing that you have been blocked for puppetry in the last 60 days does make reasonable persons ask reasonable questions. I honestly hope I am wrong and the check user proves me wrong but I also see many things that I felt needed addressing. It is not personal as it often gets down to personal insults of which I have sustained for making a reasonable report. It has not been from you and I appreciate that. 208.54.38.226 (talk) 03:24, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Checkusers generally decline requests such as you are suggesting. LadyofShalott 18:10, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Never Give Up

You may not know how important your presence here has been to me, so I'm here to tell you, I would not have had the courage to keep caring about WP if it wasn't for you. No matter what happens, please, never forget that. Darknipples (talk) 04:31, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Simple question for Darknipples Section on GSL

I took it to the tea house and am receiving counsel. I'm fine with giving IP editor a chance to respond to my request on their talk page. If they do not respond I will file a grievance. Despite the fact that section makes me feel very uncomfortable, it stands as an excellent symbol of what I have to deal with from other editors on the GSL page. My point is, I'm fine with leaving it there for now, so please don't try to change it on my account. If you ever feel the need to stand up for me, just bring it up with me on my talk page first. I refuse to be anyone else's burden, if I can help it, but thank you for your vigilance and all your efforts trying to make me feel welcome and safe. Darknipples (talk) 19:42, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For your outstanding work. Darknipples (talk) 06:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]