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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Xoloz (talk | contribs) at 17:14, 24 July 2006 (→[[Jews did WTC]]: closing moribund debate). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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19 July 2006

List of vegetarians

Joel Leyden

  • Joel Leyden was again deleted out of process by user danny. The Leyden article was in AfD twice and the vote each time was "keep." Leyden, who has served as an advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Defense Forces has over 15,000 articles about him on Google Web and Google News, has been interviewed and quoted by The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, AP, Reuters, The Jerusalem Post, Christian Science Monitor among thousands of other international and domestic media outlets. In fact, Leyden is quoted again in today's Jerusalem Post. Propose immediate relist due to out of process deletion. User:Bonnieisrael Bonnieisrael 06:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC) user has edited mostly on matters relating to Joel Leyden [reply]
  • Endorse deletion per Danny. Please see Danny's comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel News Agency (3rd nomination). In deference to Danny's position, I'm willing to take him at his word. Keep deleted. BigDT 06:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Out-of-process deletion. Spacepotato 07:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion: This is one of the occasions where AfD voters may not have all the information necessary for a good decision. Democracy works when the voters are educated and free, and in 99% of the cases they are both. In this case, Danny (and some other ancients) knows about the longish history here. This is a figure whose successes at spamming have led to his ability to generate Google hits, but he is attempting to advertise. No. Geogre 11:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, Proto's (and Danny's) justification in the AfD is more than good enough for me. Wikipedia is not an advertising agency. --Deathphoenix ʕ 12:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per above, exactly. Just zis Guy you know? 16:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, I trust Danny on this, and I seriously question the contention that DRV can overrule Danny's decision on this matter. --Cyde↔Weys 18:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per above. ~ trialsanderrors 00:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endore deletion Per above. *~Daniel~* ☎ 06:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. --woggly 09:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. What is it about the words: Out Of Process that people who are voting to endorse deletion do not understand? We are not discussing the content of this article, rather that this article was deleted "out of process." If this article remains deleted as such then what we are declaring that all Wiki community rules and guidelines are meaningless. Propose to relist this article and then AfD if people believe that Leyden, who is an advisor to the Prime Minister of Israel, is not "notable." Maayanbaruch 12:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)user has fewer than 10 edits[reply]
    • In this particular case, the person deleting it is a part of the process. BigDT 12:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are several matters at issue here. One is whether the deletion was out of process. A second is whether Joel Leyden is notable enough to merit an article. A third is whether the subject and author of this article has employed sockpuppets, legal threats, bullying, and wikilawyering both on and off of wikipedia in attempt to push his agenda on Wikipedia, and to what extent should that have any bearing on the deletion of this article. I will leave it up to others to decide the first point, and I'm frankly fed up with discussing the third. Therefore I will limit my comments to the question of whether Joel Leyden is notable enough to merit an article. I am willing to believe that Joel Leyden has on occasion communicated with Ehud Olmert, perhaps on said occasion he even gave him some advice. This does not make him "an advisor to the Prime Minister". I find it impossible to believe that there would be no Google results in Hebrew documenting such a relationship between Leyden and Olmert, as indeed there are none. --woggly 13:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
user / adm has been the subject of a RfC by Joel Leyden and has recently edited mostly on matters relating to Joel Leyden

Not everyone who lives and works in Israel is glued to Hebrew. Although Leyden is mentioned several times for his work in Hebrew. I read the Jerusalem Post. Specops 14:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is only one matter at issue here. So that no one is confused or attention diverted, it is not the notability of Joel Leyden which can be debated in yet another AfD debate or simple Google search but rather the breaching of official Wikipedia policy in a Out of Process deletion of an article after said article was debated twice in two AfD with the result twice being "keep" by community consensus. Bonnieisrael 19:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Only once after all: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joel Leyden. If you have proof of a second debate, please link to it. --woggly 21:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Mackensen (talk) 13:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as per Out of Process. In addition, Leyden is an Israeli war hero. Just check CNN or the Christian Science Monitor Specops 14:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC) user has fewer than 5 edits [reply]
  • UndeleteOkay I'll explain it a bit now. He seems to be notable enough to have an article if a small one. Most of the concerns I've read were that the article was self-promotional, that he's not well-known in Israel, and that he's a jerk. Self-promotion can be avoided with proper editing and maybe blocking him out from editing it. Whether he's unknown in Israel or not he seems to have small media buzz in the US. Still if true this is the most valid complaint. His being a jerk or not is irrelevant.--T. Anthony 14:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • undelete: Dubious excuses for deletion, especially those which seem politically inspired, just don't wash. Leyden clearly has had a notable impact. Ombudsman 17:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Deletion. As per above, process arguments don't meet minimum requirements of relevancy. --Sahrin 18:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. This is an encyclopaedia, and our processes are not for spammers to wikilawyer their way into search engine indexes. Don't care how many times his incessant self-promotion has been successful, wouldn't know him from a hole in the ground. Should have been done as an Office action so everyone, to quote the comedians at Wikitruth, could shut up. --Sam Blanning(talk) 10:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong undelete per Out of Process and Google Web / Google News searches brings up thousands (14,500 pages) of notable and respected references. Leyden serves as an advisor to the Israeli PM's Office, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Israel Defense Forces, in addition to many other highly notable accomplishments. This Out of Process deletion is not about spamming or SEO, it's about a few here who have a political agenda which does not belong in Wikipedia. Restore immediately. Jerusalemrose 11:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    User's 6th edit. --Sam Blanning(talk) 01:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion Shanes 14:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete per the first DRV that overturned, this is fucking ridiculous. Kotepho 16:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Blatant sockpuppetry, incessant wikilawyering, continual reminders from people who know what's going on here that this article has existed solely as an SEO scam and people still don't get that we're being had? I completely agree! --Sam Blanning(talk) 01:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Sam speaks for me. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 07:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sockpuppets? That would be kinda difficult for Leyden right now. He is in uniform on the Lebanese border. How many of those who attack Leyden have worn a uniform or lifted one finger in the fight against terrorism. This is not about conspiracy theories about "suspected sockpuppets." It is about an Out Of Process deletion of a true notable to the State of Israel! Specops 12:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You only know when you're on the right side of a discussion on the Internet when either a) someone calls you a Nazi b) someone asks you why you hate America or c) someone tells you that your opinions are invalid because you're not in the military. I was totally 0wning terrorists in Counter-Strike last night, is that any good? --Sam Blanning(talk) 11:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per Danny. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion per Sam and woggly. Noon 21:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Undelete Hello I work for the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. You can verify this fact by my IP address. Joel Leyden is a known asset in Israel and around the world. He has and continues to work for us as an international media consultant. He is truly notable in the Jewish / Israeli world. Both Wikipedia and Leyden are fine assets which should find a means to work together. You can call our Information and Media Division in Jerusalem to confirm these words. Best wishes to all. Israelmfa 07:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC) User's 2nd edit--woggly 08:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The INA is linked from many of our consulates. The issue here is Joel Leyden, his work and I would suggest that you cease the personal attacks. It's a busy day here in Jerusalem as we are fighting a war. We are dealing in life and death issues and Joel is assisting us in this effort. Israelmfa 08:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please explain what "free advertising" has to do with an Out of Process Deletion? Of a notable who has over 15,000 references on Google and Israel's Foreign Ministry has just requested here not to delete? Of course, if you are from Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah or can't tolerate and learn from Leyden's (and others) objective criticism of Wikipedia, you will knee jerk with a delete vote totally ignoring official Wikipedia policy and community consensus. This was an Out of Process deletion, you can argue Leyden's notability in a AfD (we have already had two and the decision both times was "keep")- if you believe in following Wikipedia process. No amount of spin will change that this was an Out of Process deletion. Bonnieisrael 16:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Israel's Foreign Ministry has just requested here not to delete" - ok, I'm not even going to pretend to take this seriously anymore. Who's the next sockpuppet going to be - is User:God Himself going to register and tell us that Joel Leyden deserves an entry because he's the Messiah? As for being from "Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah" - Middle Eastern politics is confusing, I'm just going to tick f) "all of the above". --Sam Blanning(talk) 17:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I called the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem. Their telephone number is 972-2-5303111. Leyden works there as an international media consultant for on a freelance basis. The IP address of the MFA's message here matches their Website www.mfa.gov.il/mfa. This is no sockpuppet. Suggest to all before making unsubtantiated accusations, do a little homework. Lennys 10:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


King's Highway (Ontario) → List of Ontario provincial highways

Redirect was speedily kept despite 5 users supporting deletion and the only user supporting keeping was the author of the redirect. Closing summary given was, "The nominated redirect was kept, clearly a misguided or bad faith nomination," a violation of assume good faith. -- NORTH talk 00:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment At the time the rfd was closed, there was an active drv in progress[3]. Although it was originally regarding the speedy deltion of the redirect, I did add a comment about the rfd to the drv, so it was available to comment on. While personally I think the drv should have been closed and the rfd continued (and not the other way around), because rfd can discuss a wider scope of arguements than drv, the fact that the rfd was mentioned at drv already and received no major opposition, would seem to me that it's been mostly reviewed already. Regards, MartinRe 01:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I was unaware of the prior DRV. I still think the closure of the RfD reeks of something, however. -- NORTH talk 01:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • History
    1. WP:POINT creation by SPUI to support his category renaming request.
    2. speedy request by me (deleted).
    3. DRV request by SPUI (undeleted immediately).
    4. RfD request by me.
    5. RfD closed within 6 hours.
    6. DRV closed as "moribund" a few days later.
    • In short, never had a real review anywhere.
    • However, the CfD/CfR to rename the category to match the redirect failed.
    • Meanwhile, SPUI continues to edit war over the redirect, the validity of the page where it redirects, where/whether the redirect should be used, and the text nearby describing his one (1) use of the redirect on a disambiguation page.
    • Yep, the RfD stinks, the DRV stinks, and it must be nice to have friends in high places....
    --William Allen Simpson 02:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy close this DRV, this has already been DRVed not too long ago. --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The speedy deletion was reviewed, the RfD--while briefly mentioned in that review--was IMHO not. -- NORTH talk 04:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... good point. I was working off memory when I !voted as above. I hereby withdraw my !vote. --Deathphoenix ʕ 12:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty obviously useful redirect. William Allen Simpson is now revert warring to say that the King's Highways are now controlled-access highways due to a misreading of the law that designates them. --SPUI (T - C) 05:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. Just clarifying my original nomination. There are a lot of things very, very wrong with everything surrounding this redirect. It clearly was originally made by SPUI against WP:POINT, although it may perhaps serve some useful purpose. It was then nominated for speedy deletion, and was deleted even though it should not have been (under the CSD), since it was not an "implausible typo", rather it was an alternate name. Thus I do agree with the original DRV. After the redirect was restored, it was nominated for RfD, a fairly common occurance after a page fails speedy deletion or prodding. That RfD was not allowed to run its course, and was closed as keep even though there appeared to be clear consensus to delete. I agree that it's debatable as to whether this consensus was accurate or not, since it seemed like all of the delete "voters" had a dog in the fight, but then, the closing admin Freakofnurture, while I would not go so far as to say he's in the back pocket of SPUI, does have a history of backing up SPUI even when it's inappropriate to do so. I think it's imperative to relist this nomination and allow it to run its course so that editors not so closely related to the earlier discussion can express their unbiased opinion. -- NORTH talk 23:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Relist. Both the creation of the redirect and the nomination for deletion were questionably WP:POINT, but the closure was just mistaken. The previous DrV referred to the speedy deletion, not the RfD, and had already closed. — Arthur Rubin | (talk)
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