Talk:Victor Brecheret

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I have reverted the change to Brecheret's place of birth. The biography at the official Brecheret website says that he was born in São Paulo--I'm willing to believe that he wasn't, but you'll need to cite an external source backing it up. Thanks. Chick Bowen 16:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Brecheret was born Dec 15th 1894 in Farnese as Vittorio Breheret and went to Brazil with his uncle Enrico Nanni when he was eight (circa). His Brazilian birth register (here) is dated Aug 14th 1930, when he was 36 years old. He said he was born in São Paulo to obtain legal conveniences and I can't censurate him, but there is a fact that makes impossible the birth to be happened in São Paulo. His mother, Paolina Nanni, died in Farnese in May 28th 1900 and had never been to Brazil, not even once! His father, Augusto, have never been to Brazil too, and died Apr 14th 1918 in Farnese. The couple had eight children:

1. Vittorio Breheret b. Aug 9th 1889 / d. Aug 10th 1899 in Farnese (twin)
2. Adalgisa Breheret b. Aug 9th 1889 / d. Sep 29th 1891 in Farnese (twin)
3. Silvio Breheret b. Mar 7th 1891 / d. Sep 1st 1891 in Farnese
4. Silvio Breheret b. Nov 12th 1892/ d. Nov 27th 1892 in Farnese
5. Vittorio Breheret b. Dec 15th 1894 / Dec 17th 1955 in São Paulo (twin)
6. Adalgisa Breheret b. Dec 15th 1894 / d. Jul 28th 1896 in Farnese (twin)
7. Ersilia Breheret b. Feb 10th 1897 / d. 1950 circa in São Paulo (only sibling survived childhood besides the sculptor)
8. Assunta Breheret b. Aug 13th 1898 / d. Mar 31th 1901 in Farnese

As you can see, only two out of eight have survived. The family had a long record of thalassemia. This order of birth demonstrates the impossibility of the Brecheret's birth in Brazil. Another evidence: there is no baptism records under any name Victor Brecheret or Vittorio Breheret in all churches of the São Paulo's diocese.

The website you believe is an "offical" site is run by his daughter (Sandra Brecheret), but his son, Victor Brecheret Jr, has a legal process against his sister for this specific reason and many others. I have a photocopy of his Italian birth certificate in my house in Brazil. I live now in Spain, but as soon as possible I can provide it to anyone. His Italian birth register was made eight (08) days after his birth. The Brazilian birth record was made more then 30 years after his birth as you can check for yourselves. I think these facts speak for themselves. --Dantadd 23:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This is fascinating, Dantadd. I have a couple of qualms, though. First of all, it seems close to the sort of thing covered by our no original research policy. I think you should publish your research somewhere, and when you do, we can cite it here. Secondly, even if everything you say is true, given that the situation is controversial I think it would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to authoritatively say that one side is right and the other wrong--that's the sort of thing we try to avoid (see WP:NPOV). What I would welcome is a discussion of the controversy in the article--that really seems like the best idea. It's interesting and relevant. Do you have any research other than your own you can cite--even a newspaper article saying that there is some conflict about the situation. Where did you get the information that Brecheret's mother had never been to Brazil, for example? I'd like to see this material in some form in the article, but I'd like it to be within our policies.

Also, can you add any other information about him (preferably, again, cited)--about his work, or his later life in Brazil? The article is awfully short as it is--I only know what I discovered in doing research for Mário de Andrade. Thanks. Chick Bowen 23:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Chuck, I have forgotten to cite this [1]. This website is run by his son, Victor Brecheret Jr., and you can see that he states clearly, "Brazilian, born in Farnese, Italy." Actually, I did this genealogical research 3 years ago (I can tell in private the reasons). I have photocopies (the originals were given, obviously) of the birth record and a little family tree. I haven't published anything because I legally can't, but after seven years from the date of final judicial decision (Brecheret vs. Brecheret) I will be able to do so. Anyway, the best (impartial) work about Brecheret's life was made many years ago as a doctoral thesis by Daisy Peccinini, PhD. at the Universidade de São Paulo. That's good source. Unfortunately, I'm almost in exile, without my papers and books, so it's a little bit difficult to remember everything by heart ;-) --Dantadd 00:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I've made a start, the way I think it would be best to proceed. Feel free to add and edit at will. The footnote system I'm using is simple. If you type <ref> followed by </ref>, anything between the two appears in the footnote, and the software numbers and links them automatically. The more outside sources you can cite, the better. I understand that it's difficult for you to track things down where you are, but I can also try to help as best I can. I did discover that Peccinini, whom you mention, had a book published in 2004, and there's a copy at the Library of Congress, but I don't think I'll be able to get my hands on it. But I have access to most of the standard English-language scholarly databases and a lot of non-English-language stuff, too, and a 7-million volume library. Oh, and by the way, my name's Chick, not Chuck. :-) Chick Bowen 01:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

External links

Please let's include both websites, because Sandra Pellegrini's website, even if you disagree with the information it contains, also has a number of images of Brecheret's work which our readers will probably care more about than where he was born. Feel free to expand the "Birthplace controversy" section to comment on what that website contains and why some people disagree with it, rather than just removing the link. Thanks. Chick Bowen 03:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the IP removing the link is not mine. I'll never do that. Just to make it clear, since someone could think that I use the IP to do things that I wouldn't do with my username. --Dantadd 19:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping to conclusions, Dantadd--I didn't think it was you. I would hope that whoever is doing so would read this talk page and see that these issues have been heartily discussed. Since it was removed again, I've put it back but changed the link in question directly to the "Works" page, showing images of several sculptures not available at the other website, which is really all I care about. Chick Bowen 19:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)