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June 21
Translation from German needed
Hello everybody! Since I am admittedly a bit stuck here with my recent investigation, I would like to give it a try and ask you for a nice translation of the sentence "lass dich von seinem Gerede auf keinen Fall zu irgendeinem Unsinn hinreißen!". I marked the parts that matter to me most. Hoping for your kind support,--Erdic (talk) 09:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
PS: Please feel free to also correct my enquiry as such if you find any mistakes. Thanks a lot in advance!--Erdic (talk) 09:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Not a native speaker, so someone may correct me, but a translation would be something like "Don't under any circumstances let his gossip draw you into doing something stupid". --Xuxl (talk) 12:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Native speaker: The above suggestion is perfectly valid. My version would be: 'Don´t let yourself (or: don´t allow yourself to) be tricked into some nonsense by his verbiage. Depending on the context there may be better alternatives. Clearly, this is direct speech in a fairly colloquial mode where vocabulary & semantics are both subjective and fuzzy. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:38, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Xuxl and Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM: Many thanks for your answers! In the meantime, I found these suggestions. Would you say all of them are idiomatic, too?--Erdic (talk) 01:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
German–American-English online dictionary?
Hello, I have a somewhat fundamental question: Is there any German–American-English [online] dictionary on the market? What do professional American translators use? I'm asking here because up to now, I couldn't manage to find anything of that kind yet. Best--Erdic (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- American translators use specialist dictionaries almost exclusively. Which ones depends on your specialty; medical, aerospace, chemical, legal, financial, business, petroleum exploitation, mechanical engineering, and so on. I have always used print dictionaries, and occasionally research some difficult words online. I don't know of any good online technical dictionaries. The only ones I find online are small technical vocabularies. —Stephen (talk) 07:02, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- You could try an online forum, for example this one: [1]. 94.195.147.35 (talk) 08:30, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Try the Collins German Dictionary online. It has both US and UK English definitions indicated. (e.g. "tap" EN>DE). I use the Collins German Concise Dictionary dico, 3rd Edition (treeware), for independent study as it provides much idiomatic context. There are a number of online DE dicos. Our Austrian interns like dict.cc which is crowdsourced. I prefer leo online, especially for its usage forum. As for the AE vs BE aspect - if you aren't entirely fluent in one or the other version of English, just check the suggested translation in your preferred English-language dictionary. I (= professional Hebrew>English translator) use Merriam-Webster's online for my native US English. For British I used to use a CD version of MS Encarta's dico that came bundled with the treeware World English Dictionary, otherwise I don't know what online options are available. Hope this helps. -- 15:32, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Stephen G. Brown: Very interesting, thanks a lot for this insight! I really wouldn't have thought that, but that may indeed explain the lack I revealed here. Best--Erdic (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Deborahjay: Thank you very much for your kind response! Of course, I already knew all of the dictionaries you mentioned since I've been in search of the issue in question for quite some time now. What I for my part can highly recommend besides Collins, which I also use frequently, is PONS online, since they have a very professional editorial staff with native speakers and they do quite a good job with a very comprehensive and differentiated dictionary that considers also very specific varieties (f. i. Australian or South African English) apart from BE and AE. However, it is still a German and not an American product... And then there's also Langenscheidt, the most and longest-established German dictionary for English, also with professional editors, but their translations are occasionally somewhat stiff or unidiomatic if you ask me. Yet this is also a very extensive dictionary – in many cases even more detailed than PONS. dict.cc and leo.org are of course not professional projects, which mainly consist of mostly undifferentiated word lists, and thus, I admittedly have quite some reservations about them. But thank you anyway for your friendly advice! Best wishes--Erdic (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
June 22
V NP = V P NP
Either (A) "The strike lasted two weeks" means the same as "The strike lasted for two weeks" or (B) the difference in meaning is so subtle that I'm not consciously aware of it.
For can't always be used with LAST: "Those shoes should last for till you're 50", for example, is ungrammatical. But most of the time, for seems optional.
It's hard to come up with verb-plus-preposition combinations* where the preposition is similarly unnecessary. FORGET about is one. (When I skimread examples of "forget about" at COCA and mentally remove the "about", the resulting sentences are good and mean the same; similarly, when I skimread COCA's examples of "forget the" and mentally insert "about", the resulting sentences are good and mean the same.)
I can't think of any reason why anyone would compile a list of verb plus preposition sequences in which the preposition is, usually, entirely optional. So there probably is no such list. But does anyone here know of one, or can anyone think of a way in which I could generate such a list without laborious introspection?
* Such a description of course doesn't reflect the structure (PP versus simple NP), but I'm trying to avoid technicalities that aren't needed here. More.coffy (talk) 05:39, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's fairly common with certain time expressions: "I did it Tuesday" vs. "I did it on Tuesday".
- "Forget" (transitive) and "forget about" do not always mean exactly the same thing. "I forgot the coffee" has a fairly strong implication that you forgot to bring the coffee with you, while "I forgot about the coffee" doesn't. AnonMoos (talk) 09:44, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- One thing which puzzles me is that when Americans say "through Thursday" they mean "up to" and possibly "including Thursday" while the British use this expression to mean "during the course of Thursday". They would say "through to Thursday" to express the first idea. So why do Americans omit the preposition, and how would they translate the British expression "through Thursday" into American English? 94.195.147.35 (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I don't recognise this as a British expression. Do you have an example? HenryFlower 15:07, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the ideas, AnonMoos. But I think my idiolect differs a little from yours. Arriving back from shopping: "Here you are: bacon, coriander, avocados, beer, pineapple juice, soy milk." / "Ah good. But the coffee?" / "Damn, I forgot (about) the coffee." Either would sound perfectly idiomatic to me. However, I do detect differences elsewhere. Wondering whether to make a return visit to a particular restaurant: "The meal was superb, remember? The antipasti, the risotto.... Even the house wine was excellent." / "Well, yes, but what they called 'espresso' was pretty awful." / "Ah yes, I'd forgotten (about) the coffee." Here, omission of "about" might sound slightly strange to me. More.coffy (talk) 11:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- One thing which puzzles me is that when Americans say "through Thursday" they mean "up to" and possibly "including Thursday" while the British use this expression to mean "during the course of Thursday". They would say "through to Thursday" to express the first idea. So why do Americans omit the preposition, and how would they translate the British expression "through Thursday" into American English? 94.195.147.35 (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I've heard 'should last for till' but it does sound clunky and unnecessary. Dmcq (talk) 12:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Neither "last for till" nor "lasted for till" appears in COCA. Merely a performance error, perhaps? More.coffy (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Or just speech compared to writing, for instance how often do people use 'till' in writing compared to 'until'? Dmcq (talk) 09:03, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Neither "last for till" nor "lasted for till" appears in COCA. Merely a performance error, perhaps? More.coffy (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Reference: see this book, found on google scholar, for a detailed discussion. Don't know if a single-sourced article is permissible, but this might be a good starting point for an article on optional prepositions. Some of the factors in play are cognitive complexity, tense, rhythm, and the involvement of time expressions or causality. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 15:00, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Would it be reasonable to say that "forget about" something means "to forget the existence or relevance of something", whereas "forget" something means either to forget to bring something, or to forget the details of something. Compare for example "I forgot my password" vs. "I forgot about my password". Iapetus (talk) 15:13, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your pointer to Google Books, Mr/Ms Not-logged-in. Unfortunately Google Books won't serve this up to me, but maybe I can find a PDF somewhere. More.coffy (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I suspect that your suggested difference is too simple, Iapetus. However, I can't immediately come up with anything better, and your example is very good: certainly the version with "about" would sound very odd to me. More.coffy (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Couple more examples in Zero-marking_in_English#Zero_prepositions.70.67.222.124 (talk) 15:06, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- The "about" version could make sense if for example I told someone to use my computer for some purpose, but had forgotten that they would have needed a password to do so. Iapetus (talk) 11:23, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you ... but Wikipedia's treatment of "zero prepositions" is horrible! It starts
- In Northern Britain some speakers omit the prepositions to or of in sentences with two objects.
- "So, she won't give us it." (She won't give it to us.)
- In Northern Britain some speakers omit the prepositions to or of in sentences with two objects.
- There are so many confusions (or misunderstandings) within this. More.coffy (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- That doesn't have much to do with "omitting prepositions". "Give me the coffee" and "Give the coffee to me" are variants in English, and these dialects extend the first construction to cases when the direct object is pronominal... AnonMoos (talk) 08:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- I can think of the example of opening times. A Briton would say "9 to 5, Monday to Friday". An American would say "9 through 5, Monday to Friday. In some cases (as discussed above) prepositions are added unnecessarily. The station announcer yesterday morning said "The London, King's Cross train is now arriving into platform 2". The normal phrase is "arriving at", with "arriving on" also heard. This may be the same announcer who recently informed passengers "Your next King's Cross train will arrive at and depart from platform 2". Superfluous speech was the subject of a recent question:
Back to "V NP = V P NP"
AnonMoos, I agree: some of the content of Zero-marking_in_English#Zero_prepositions is irrelevant to its stated subject. And it's very confused. -- More.coffy (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Gilding the lily
What is the origin of this phrase? On 3 January 2015 an unnamed Daily Telegraph journalist wrote:
"Unfortunately this year the almost-full waxing gibbous moon will obscure the display".
Are there any other examples of a writer repeating three times something which was perfectly obvious the first time (the word "gibbous" is superfluous here). 81.151.128.189 (talk) 10:05, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- If the question is about "gilding the lily", it's a misquotation from Shakespeare's King John, act iv, scene 2: "Therefore, to be possess'd with double pomp,/To guard a title that was rich before,/To gild refined gold, to paint the lily,/To throw a perfume on the violet,/To smooth the ice, or add another hue/Unto the rainbow, or with taper-light/To seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish,/Is wasteful and ridiculous excess." I'm sure that there are published triply redundant phrases, and why not? Redundancy is no sin, despite the imprecations of generations of Thistlebottoms. Though I agree the particular example of pleonasm you cite is singularly ungraceful... -Nunh-huh 07:04, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Hope nobody minds that I've reformatted this question. (For why this seems appropriate, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FLanguage&type=revision&diff=787261013&oldid=787228610 this set of edits.) More.coffy (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Turning stops into fricatives
When we correspond stops with fricatives, we usually go with p=f, t=th, and k=German ch. We even sometimes go with s=sh even though they are both fricatives. Naturally, however, the corresponding sounds are p=wh, t=s, and k=h in huge (a voiceless y.) If you don't believe me, try making a stop sound and try to hold it for as long as you can and then if it turns into something different, find what it turns into. Is there any reason the first 2 sentences in this paragraph are true despite the naturalness of the third sentence?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I don't understand. Are you talking about finding which stops are made at the same places of articulation as various fricatives? What are "corresponding sounds"? In which of its various and nebulous senses are you using the word "naturally"? More.coffy (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- The first 2 sentences talk about how fricatives developed from other stops (and one fricative that's not the same as the fricative that developed from it) in the languages that formed fricatives. To understand the third sentence, try making a p, t, or k sound and hold it for a few seconds and guess what different sound it turns into. A p will turn to the wh sound in white. A t will turn into an s. A k will turn into the sound of the h in huge, which is a voiceless y. Try it if you don't believe me. Georgia guy (talk) 22:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
Georgia_guy -- First off, a change from a stop to a fricative at or near the corresponding place of articulation is usually called "spirantization". Second, it would be nice if you would use some system of phonetic transcription. IPA or Americanist phonetic notation or whatever, I don't care, but ordinary unmodified English orthography simply doesn't work for this particular discussion. Third, the fricative with the same place of articulation as [p] is [ɸ], not [ʍ]. The [ʍ] sound is an approximant, not a fricative. Fourth, a change from [s] to [ʃ] is usually called a "palatalization", most definitely not a "spirantization". Your "22:37" comments are quite strange, but if they have any point, it's that slightly different points of articulation are often preferred for stops and fricatives. So, for example, bilabial [p] is preferred among the stops, while among the fricatives labiodental [f] is more often found than bilabial [ɸ]. A change of spirantization affecting a [p] sound will often end up with [f] as the result for this reason... AnonMoos (talk) 08:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- "labiodental [f] is more often found than bilabial [ɸ]": Japanese is one "major" language that has the latter (as an allophone of /h/) but not the former. More.coffy (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- If you looked things up in the Ian Maddieson books, I'm sure "[f] occurs more more often than [ɸ] in the world's languages" would be found to be true (especially with respect to phonemes)... AnonMoos (talk) 19:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
June 23
"sports fielded"?
Considering e. g. the article Big Ten Conference, what exactly does the term "sports fielded" in the infobox refer to? I have to admit that I'm German and that I couldn't really find an appropriate translation. Best--Curc (talk) 11:21, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- How many different sports you can play there, by the looks of it. So both men and women can play 28 different sports. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:14, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- If you look in the section "Sports" you'll see the list. Note that not all sports are played by both men and women. Some are just men, some are just women. But it adds up to 28; 14 by men, 14 by women. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:47, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- One meaning of the verb "to field" is to put a team together to take part in a sport - so you can say that a football team fields several youth teams as well as their main team. In this context it indicates how many different sports are played, for each of which at least one team can be fielded. Wymspen (talk) 20:22, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you very much! So, the expression appears a bit tricky in this context, doesn't it?--Curc (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Indeed. I have to say that this usage of "field" is unfamiliar to me: I'd say an organization may "field" one or more teams, but not one or more sports. Later in the article it uses the word "sponsored" instead. I think the infobox should be changed to say something like "Number of sports". In addition, the usage of "sport" is problematic, or else the numbers given are wrong. Men's basketball and women's basketball would be one sport, not two. Likewise men's lacrosse and women's lacrosse, and so on. Based on the tables in the article, it appears to me that it should say 18 sports (4 men-only, 4 women-only, 10 both sexes). If 14 men's + 14 women's = 28 is wanted, then "sports" is the wrong word for the label. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- A better word than fielded in this case would be 'sponsored' perhaps. But there's no inherent problem with treating the men's and women's sports as distinct, since they do not compete together.--Jayron32 02:57, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Of course they are distinct competitions; what they are not is distinct sports, as the label claims. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 05:57, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Feel free to write to the Big Ten itself and complain about their own terminology.[2] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:25, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for providing a reference. Really I think what's going on is that they're using the wrong word because there isn't a right word with that meaning, but I'll quit on this. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 20:10, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Feel free to write to the Big Ten itself and complain about their own terminology.[2] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:25, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Of course they are distinct competitions; what they are not is distinct sports, as the label claims. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 05:57, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- A better word than fielded in this case would be 'sponsored' perhaps. But there's no inherent problem with treating the men's and women's sports as distinct, since they do not compete together.--Jayron32 02:57, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Indeed. I have to say that this usage of "field" is unfamiliar to me: I'd say an organization may "field" one or more teams, but not one or more sports. Later in the article it uses the word "sponsored" instead. I think the infobox should be changed to say something like "Number of sports". In addition, the usage of "sport" is problematic, or else the numbers given are wrong. Men's basketball and women's basketball would be one sport, not two. Likewise men's lacrosse and women's lacrosse, and so on. Based on the tables in the article, it appears to me that it should say 18 sports (4 men-only, 4 women-only, 10 both sexes). If 14 men's + 14 women's = 28 is wanted, then "sports" is the wrong word for the label. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- A much better word, if I've got the context right, would be "hosted". Sports hosted: 28. Akld guy (talk) 01:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- "Host" is what the home team does. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:59, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- A much better word, if I've got the context right, would be "hosted". Sports hosted: 28. Akld guy (talk) 01:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
June 24
Equivalent for German adverbial ordinal numbers
Here is another issue I've been puzzling about for quite a while now: Is there an English equivalent form for ordinal numbers used in an adverbial way like in German, e. g. when we write: "1. bin ich müde. 2. habe ich kein Geld mehr und 3. will ich nach Hause" (= "Firstly, I'm tired. Secondly, I don't have any money left and thridly, I want to go home") — though I must say, that this notation is informal, of course! So, do you use numbers this way in English, too?--Curc (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well, in English one can write "I don't want to go there because (1) I'm tired, (2) I don't have any money left, and (3) I want to go home", but I think that when reading that aloud, most English speakers would read the numerals as cardinal numbers rather than ordinals. Deor (talk) 17:52, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- ... and the more formal version (firstly ... secondly ...) is normally written in words, not using numerals. I've never seen "1ly" or "2ly" as abbreviations. Dbfirs 19:30, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Still another version drops the -ly, as in "First, I'm tired. Second, I don't have...". This also is written in words, not 1st, 2nd, etc. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 20:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Merci beaucoup! ;-) Now, you have in fact solved a real mystery for me, since I couldn't find anything suitable on the web. So thanks once again and have a nice Sunday. Best--Curc (talk) 23:49, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Or you can use letters of the alphabet: "A, I'm tired. B, I don't have....". Humorously, comedians are known to mix them up: "A, I'm tired, and 2, I don't have...." —Stephen (talk) 08:14, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- A peculiarity of German (and possibly other Germanic languages):
- 1. ...
- 2. ...
- 3. ...
- usw
- Translates as "first ... second ... third ... etc. (i.e. though they look like cardinals they are actually ordinals). 94.195.147.35 (talk) 09:36, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- (I fixed your indentation.)
- This is because German uses "." after a number in digits to indicate an ordinal, whereas English and Romance languages use abbreviations of the ordinal suffix, so "1." in German means "1st", whereas in a list like the above in English, the "." is just a punctuation mark. I think the Scandinavian languages do it like German too. No, the article is Ordinal indicator. Danish and Norwegian use the period, but Swedish abbreviates the suffix. The article lists about a dozen other languages that do use the period. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 21:01, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- A peculiarity of German (and possibly other Germanic languages):
- Or you can use letters of the alphabet: "A, I'm tired. B, I don't have....". Humorously, comedians are known to mix them up: "A, I'm tired, and 2, I don't have...." —Stephen (talk) 08:14, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Merci beaucoup! ;-) Now, you have in fact solved a real mystery for me, since I couldn't find anything suitable on the web. So thanks once again and have a nice Sunday. Best--Curc (talk) 23:49, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Still another version drops the -ly, as in "First, I'm tired. Second, I don't have...". This also is written in words, not 1st, 2nd, etc. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 20:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- ... and the more formal version (firstly ... secondly ...) is normally written in words, not using numerals. I've never seen "1ly" or "2ly" as abbreviations. Dbfirs 19:30, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
A Navy report...
In this US Navy article, you will find the following statement: "Missions of the HST CSG focus heavily on maritime security operations and theater security cooperation efforts, which help establish conditions for regional stability." — Question: Wouldn't "theater" normally have to be placed after "security cooperation", since it signifies a place where security cooperations are performed? Admittedly, I find this construction somewhat strange, but I might be mistaken. What do the native speakers say?--Curc (talk) 19:48, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- No, it should be exactly as it is, "theater security cooperation" refers to security cooperation in a military "theater of operations", whereas "security cooperation theater" would make no sense at all (at least not in this context). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 20:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks! Then I must have misunderstood something.--Curc (talk) 00:15, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Security cooperation theater refers to a very dull play genre, on Off-off-off-Broadway. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:53, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
antonym of "cogent"
what are the 'antonym(s)' of "cogent"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.25.115 (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- @68.151.25.115: Incoherent, unconvincing, invalid. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:17, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
Why is the name form kept while the meaning is not translated?
I observe that, in Jewish and Native American and Chinese cultures, people give meaningful names to their children in their own language. Jewish families may give their children Hebrew names; Chinese families give their kids Chinese names; and Native American families give their kids names from specific American Indian tribes. Also, Chinese names are not derived from a standard set of names. They are just made up on the spot in the Chinese language. Though, some logograms tend to be more popular than others, so it is possible to find different individuals with the same given name. But the logogram itself is not recognized as a name. Why do some cultures borrow names from other languages in other cultures, while other cultures create meaningful names in their own language? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 21:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- English-speaking families also sometimes invent new more or less meaningful names for their children, but there's less need for a unique given name in "Western" cultures since the number of different surnames is infinitely larger than among Han Chinese (see Chinese surname), where the three most common surnames are used by almost a quarter of the total population (and the 100 most common surnames are used by 85% of the total population), and a large number of given names, and preferably a unique one, thus are needed to be able to tell people apart. And the reason why given names used in "Western" cultures often are of "foreign origin", i.e. in a different language, is very simple, most names in common use are from the Bible. There are some exceptions, though, because many names used in Scandinavia are of Scandinavian origin ( such as "Ulf", meaning wolf, and "Björn", meaning bear). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- I am not convinced that the number of created surnames will lead people to choose unique given names. According to this [YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p-Jdjo7sSQ&t=6s], the Chinese used to have 12,000 recorded surnames, but 3,100 is currently in use, including the most popular ones. The fact is, when two people marry, one person will pass down the surname to the offspring. In many families, this means the father's family name, as the children are part of the father's family. I am aware that the Chinese has a belief that it is very bad practice to name someone after someone else, because it is a sign of disrespect of the ancestor or historical famous person. Also, the Chinese today may have a formal Chinese name, a Chinese nickname which is used most often by family and friends, and an English name (for doing business). They still make up a name in their own language, though. But the name composition (the individual logograms) is not recognized as one recognized name. In any case, that's not my question. My question is, why English speakers don't name their kids based on English words as a normal cultural practice, not an exception? Maybe someone names their kid, "Pure", instead of "Catherine", which means "pure". 50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:36, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Most given names used in "Western" cultures are, as I pointed out in my reply above, originally from the Bible, and are not seen as foreign in the countries where they are used, since they have been in common use in Western Europe for almost two thousand years by now (they also differ depending on language, for example Petrus/Pedro/Pierre/Peter, Paulus/Pablo/Paul, Andreas/Andrés/André/Andrew/Anders, Laurentius/Laurence/Lawrence/Lars, so there's a greater variety than many people who are not familiar with European names might think..). As for Chinese surnames I suggest you read the article I linked to, having 3,100 surnames currently in use says nothing about how frequent they are, as can be seen from the statistics I quoted, three surnames account for almost 25% of all Han Chinese, and 100 surnames account for 87% of all Han Chinese (in Mainland China and Taiwan), leaving 15% for the other 3,000 surnames. Compared to in England where the three most common surnames together account for a measly 2.6% of the population, and the 20 most common surnames together account for less than 8% of the population (see List of most common surnames in Europe). Almost all "Western" people also have more than one given name, making it even easier to tell people apart (John A. Doe, John B. Doe, John C. Doe etc...), and nicknames used by family and friends are very common, with all probability at least as common as among Chinese. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 00:16, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- But Peter is still a derived name. It does not have a meaning in English. It is an Anglicized form or variant of a Biblical Hebrew name, and this name is circulated around in the population. Jewish families and Chinese families often give their children names in their own language - Hebrew or Chinese. My original question was about the form of the name being passed down or transliterated, but not the meaning (translated). 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:46, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Peter is not "an Anglicized form or variant of a Biblical Hebrew name", but rather derives from a Greek origin having nothing to do with Hebrew. 185.27.105.184 (talk) 07:24, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- It's the Greek translation of the Aramaic Cephas though - was anybody ever named "rock" in Greek before that? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:19, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, that is an example of what I'm asking. Why certain languages take a transliteration instead of translation? Why does the translation process stop in Greek? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 11:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- I believe, that when people know the original meaning, they tend to translate, but when they don't know it, they tend to transliterate. I also believe that people take aesthetic considerations as well: When they like the sound of the original name, they may prefer transliteration to translation. There may be also religious considerations, or cultural ones, so that more conservative people would prefer the original name (by transliterating it). HOTmag (talk) 12:14, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, that is an example of what I'm asking. Why certain languages take a transliteration instead of translation? Why does the translation process stop in Greek? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 11:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Cephas is Latin. In Aramaic, it's not Cephas, but rather ܟܹ݁ܐܦ݂ܵܐ, i.e. /kefa/. HOTmag (talk) 11:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- It's the Greek translation of the Aramaic Cephas though - was anybody ever named "rock" in Greek before that? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:19, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Peter is not "an Anglicized form or variant of a Biblical Hebrew name", but rather derives from a Greek origin having nothing to do with Hebrew. 185.27.105.184 (talk) 07:24, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- But Peter is still a derived name. It does not have a meaning in English. It is an Anglicized form or variant of a Biblical Hebrew name, and this name is circulated around in the population. Jewish families and Chinese families often give their children names in their own language - Hebrew or Chinese. My original question was about the form of the name being passed down or transliterated, but not the meaning (translated). 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:46, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Most given names used in "Western" cultures are, as I pointed out in my reply above, originally from the Bible, and are not seen as foreign in the countries where they are used, since they have been in common use in Western Europe for almost two thousand years by now (they also differ depending on language, for example Petrus/Pedro/Pierre/Peter, Paulus/Pablo/Paul, Andreas/Andrés/André/Andrew/Anders, Laurentius/Laurence/Lawrence/Lars, so there's a greater variety than many people who are not familiar with European names might think..). As for Chinese surnames I suggest you read the article I linked to, having 3,100 surnames currently in use says nothing about how frequent they are, as can be seen from the statistics I quoted, three surnames account for almost 25% of all Han Chinese, and 100 surnames account for 87% of all Han Chinese (in Mainland China and Taiwan), leaving 15% for the other 3,000 surnames. Compared to in England where the three most common surnames together account for a measly 2.6% of the population, and the 20 most common surnames together account for less than 8% of the population (see List of most common surnames in Europe). Almost all "Western" people also have more than one given name, making it even easier to tell people apart (John A. Doe, John B. Doe, John C. Doe etc...), and nicknames used by family and friends are very common, with all probability at least as common as among Chinese. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 00:16, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- After looking at your contributions and finding that all you ever do here on Wikipedia is asking questions at the "Reference desk", questions that in many cases are at least borderline trolling, I have decided to not spend more time on you, so if my answer wasn't to your liking I suggest you use "Google" to find more information elsewhere. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 00:59, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- I am sorry that you feel that way. You have the right to decline answering the inquiry. I feel that I have not expressed myself very clearly, and don't know how to express my actual question very clearly, so I'm just going to let go of this question. Even in real life, I may ask a question, and some people will give an answer. In my head, I would be like, "That's not what I said." Sometimes, I wonder if people really understand my words or if they are answering me based on what they think I'm asking. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Given names necessarily reflect the choice of the parents, so this provides some indication of their attitude toward both ancestry and surrounding culture. For the latter, you can search on the web _popular_given_names_ for a particular country and year - for the USA, the basic data comes from the Social Security Administration website. See also the WP pages List of most popular given names and List of most popular given names by state in the United States. For recent births, consider the impact of global culture. When my Hebrew-named, Israeli-born daughters visit my birthplace, America, where there are few Hebrew-speakers even among Jews, their names are perhaps recognized as feminine for ending in "-ah" but their meanings and significance are wholly inscrutable. Back in Israel, any Hebrew-speaker will identify a given name as biblical or religious vs. sourced in nature, geography, history/literature, trendy, or unique - likewise the practice in recent decades of unisex names or giving typically male names to female children (but not the reverse). -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:12, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Your question was not really clear, but I'm sure you meant to ask "When foreign names are converted to English, why is the name form kept while the meaning is not translated?" First, we are generally not interested in the meaning, but in the person's identity. The English approximation of the name is important, not the meaning. Once a foreigner has an official English name, he can then ask his friends to call him whatever he likes ... Mr. Swamp-East Mao perhaps. But Mr. Mao (or Mr. Hair) probably would not like to be called Swamp-East in English.
- As for Native American names, their naming conventions are quite different from English names. Native Americans have numerous given names in their lifetime, including one or more secret names that is only shared with their medicine man, but they do not have surnames at all. The Bureau of Indian Affairs forced Native Americans to invent and adopt surnames for the purpose of identity, and since they had no sense of surnames, they made up rather odd names based on relationships (his-grandson, their-child, etc.), or a physical defect (tall-man, big-nose, yellow-woman, and so on), or a vocation (gambler, farrier, silversmith, and so on), but usually in their respective language. Then the BIA prohibited the use of diacritics or anything that would be difficult for a European-American to spell and pronounce, so their names were written in ways that made them hard to identify as meaningful in their native language, such as Begay (Navajo name, more properly wikt:biyeʼ, "his son"). After a couple of generations, the family forgets the meaning (since a name like wikt:Begay is not recognizably Navajo anymore) and just automatically gives their name as Begay. If you ask them what Begay means, they often don't know. By this time, the family is giving their children common English names (although the choices may be different from the names preferred by European-Americans because culture keeps the groups apart). —Stephen (talk) 08:05, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well, it's not just English, but various European languages. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 11:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Consider it a current cultural norm that names be bestowed qua name and recognized as such, rather than a meaningful common noun (Angel, Rainbow, Summer, River...) or celebrating a characteristic (Prudence, Chastity...). -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:05, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- That's hardly a new trend, consider Cotton Mather.--Jayron32 17:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Consider it a current cultural norm that names be bestowed qua name and recognized as such, rather than a meaningful common noun (Angel, Rainbow, Summer, River...) or celebrating a characteristic (Prudence, Chastity...). -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:05, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well, it's not just English, but various European languages. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 11:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
The epitome of Puritan naming was supposedly "Unless-Jesus-Christ-Had-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barebone" and his son "Nicholas If-Christ-had-not-died-for-thee-thou-hadst-been-damned Barebone", though they go by the tamer monikers of Praise-God Barebone and Nicholas Barbon on Wikipedia... AnonMoos (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
June 26
Dinner set or something
A glass, plate, knife, spoon and fork, what is it called altogether? I thought of utensils 116.58.202.238 (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Tableware or maybe place setting? ---Sluzzelin talk 17:50, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Not answering the question but related: the knife, spoon and fork are referred to as cutlery. Akld guy (talk) 21:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- Not in USA. HOTmag (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- ...with the distinct US usage as stated in the second paragraph of cutlery. I concur with place setting for the individual set-up - both its elements and the customary layout. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)'
- The usual American term for knife, fork, and spoon is silverware, whether or not made of silver (in fact, the phrase "plastic silverware" is common and does not sound odd, unless you stop and think about it). I don't think there's any exact special term for that plus plates and drinking glasses. Place setting doesn't quite work; it would include napkins. Utensils is a synonym of "silverware"; doesn't include plates or drinking glasses. --Trovatore (talk) 05:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm sure this discussion on US usage is very useful for our Bangladeshi OP, where they do use the term cutlery correctly. Fgf10 (talk) 06:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- Your reflexive anti-American bigotry is really obnoxious and tiresome. Please cut it out. --Trovatore (talk) 07:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm sure this discussion on US usage is very useful for our Bangladeshi OP, where they do use the term cutlery correctly. Fgf10 (talk) 06:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- The usual American term for knife, fork, and spoon is silverware, whether or not made of silver (in fact, the phrase "plastic silverware" is common and does not sound odd, unless you stop and think about it). I don't think there's any exact special term for that plus plates and drinking glasses. Place setting doesn't quite work; it would include napkins. Utensils is a synonym of "silverware"; doesn't include plates or drinking glasses. --Trovatore (talk) 05:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- ...with the distinct US usage as stated in the second paragraph of cutlery. I concur with place setting for the individual set-up - both its elements and the customary layout. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)'
- Not in USA. HOTmag (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
June 27
Spanish "veredero"
"Esta violencia presente, las arremetidas descontroladas de los cuerpos de seguridad, sin ninguna garantía por parte del Estado para que este ofrezca a los venezolanos libertad para expresarse, solo contribuye a acrecentar la violencia, alejando aún más el veredero cumplimiento de sus derechos." ([3]). I think the usual meaning of the word is "courier"- does it have a different meaning here? Or why talk about the rights of couriers specifically? DTLHS (talk) 06:27, 27 June 2017 (UTC)