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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Equinox2 (talk | contribs) at 20:20, 6 December 2004 (→[[Universism]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Universism

This page describes Universism, which seems to be little more than a web site created by University of Alabama medical student. The web site states that the "author" of Universism "came up" with it in August 2003. That happens to be the month in which the Wikipedia article on Universism first appeared, with content drawn verbatim from the web site. The same verbatim text was posted around the same time on religioustolerance.org.
I have rewritten the article, which one might read for more information about this situation. But the article really should be deleted, unless Wikipedia intends to become the place for people trying to start their own religions to post their manifestoes and get traffic for their web sites. --BM 03:19, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep Every religion was started by someone. Why discriminate against ours?
  • Delete unless some evidence of notability surfaces. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:23, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep A significant movement uniting freethinkers.
  • Keep Universism is an interesting outgrowth of Deism. --
  • Keep Universism has 1,150 members on its meetup beating out Humanism, within a year. Yes this is a new movement. But that does not mean it isn't significant. United Universists has over 5,000 members and was recently the cover story of the Birmingham Weekly. Deist 03:54, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • KeepUniversism is an idea who's time has come. It unites free-thinkers of many different philosophies, especially needed now in the political climate of America today. --NobleSavage 04:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC) --
  • Keep This movement truly is an ideal for the modern era. It is high time we shed the primitive superstitions of the past and move forward into the enlightened age that will be possible without the neurosis of religion.--GodlessUSSoldier 04:54, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • User's first edit.
  • Keep As a Humanist, Atheist, and a libertarian, I support this meta-movement.
    • Unsigned vote from 64.12.116.137.
    • And you're aware that "X is a good thing" does not in any way, shape or form imply "X should have its own article"? Tell me you comprehend the distinction, right? You do grasp that some bad things that no right-thinking person would support deserve articles and some good things whose goodness is unquestioned do not? -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:35, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • I'm George Bush, and I support this message - rernst 18:57, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep I have gone into and read up on the Wikipedia's rules for deletion of an article... Your grounds are shaky at best. Ford Vox simply wrote this article to inform everyone here about Universim, it is no different from any other article that I have read here. So, if you wish to delete the Universism article, I suggest you delete everything on this vast and wonderful site. Or... you could pretend that you actaully are NOT afraid of Universism or jealous of Ford and that you know what the heck you are talking about. (paragraph break omitted) Universism and reason-based philosophies are what is required if we are to evolve with the changing times. We can not hide in our shadows of ignorance, fear and hatred any longer. Universism MUST be allowed to be on this site, or the administrators will be going against their own rules and this site will loose all credibility. -- Allister Cucksey, Student of Community Development at the Rural Development Institute, Brandon University
    • User's first edit.
      • If I had a dime for every time I've seen someone show up on a VfD and with their very first edit declare that they know the rules of Wikipedia better than anyone else and that whether we keep their favorite article or not will decide whether we are a real site for information or just "afraid" and "jealous", I'd be deciding on the color of the Porsche I was going to buy. Anyone for the VfD drinking game? -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:35, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • I'm no big fan of drinking games, but I'm more than happy to both drink and delete. However, though I have deletion tendencies on this matter, I need to abstain for now. "Universism" gets me 5,980 google hits, which seems sort of high. Obviously I can't be bothered to check them all out, but it does make me wonder if there's something to this. My five sockpuppets, however, all vote delete, I just can't be bothered to actually go through the process of creating them right now. -R. fiend 06:11, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Undecided How many defferent ways are there to say atheist / agnostic / freethinker / humanist / bright / naturalist / secularist ? Do they each need their own entry?--jhuger
    • Note: This is jhuger's only edit. -- Scott 07:42, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
    • I have some sympathy for jhuger's underlying point here. There is a bit of a disorgnized mish-mash in this area, as the advocates of the various "-ism's" have all sought to have "their" article in the Wikipedia. But all of these movements are intellectual tendencies which have existed for a decade or two (at least) and on which books have been written (except for the "brights"), and we don't need to make things worse by countenancing every newly-minted "-ism" whose first move is to start a web-site, and whose second move is to write a Wikipedia article about themselves. --BM 14:37, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep I think that this is an important new perspective. dduane --
    • Note: This is User:205.166.253.15's only edit. [per Antaeus F]
    • Antaeus successfully IDed the actual user, obsoleting these entries which are restored by Jerzy(t) 07:06, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC) for the sake of the record & to satisfy nagging doubts of those who remember seeing them:
      • NOTE -- This vote was added by User:Mindbender, who later tried to add a second vote under her own name.
        • No, it was NOT. I originally replied UNDERNEATH this user but removed my post for editing. And you now see it down below. Please do not jump to conclusions! Thank you. - mindbender
          • Thank you for clarifying the record, Jerzy. I confess I did make a mistake, trying to figure out which user had added which unsigned vote. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:43, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete, votes have convinced me that this is advocacy and non-encyclopedic. - SimonP 05:39, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Yes, they do each need their own entry. Not every atheist is the same, nor every agnostic, etc. Universism is not the same as humanism, or naturalism, or any of the others. To think so is simplistic and lazy. --
  • Sockpuppet voters have convinced me to vote delete. Gamaliel 05:48, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Note that this "5000" figure is rather suspect. I became a Universist last night by filling out a form on their website. This is just a passing fad, not a noteworthy movement, and I find the behavior and accusations (especially against BM) of its adherents here particularly distasteful. Gamaliel 19:08, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • KEEP To date, the Universist movement has recieved the following media coverage:
      • "Gimme That New-Time Religion" by Dale Short of the Birmingham Weekly, published in the July 22-29, 2004 edition
      • "Jonathan is a Universist" on BBC, May 26, 2004. BBC item
    • [The above unsigned vote was placed (at end of VfD footer!) by single-edit User:Zagadka 04:31, 2004 Dec 6 & moved here by Jerzy(t) 06:25, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)]
  • Delete. Mikkalai 05:51, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Seems notable to me. --L33tminion | (talk) 05:49, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep I see no reason why this page to should be removed. Universism is an inevitable progression of rational philosophy and due for recognition. mindbender -- Note: mindbender's only edits have been to this page.
  • I would have voted Delete anyway [[User:Xezbeth|Xezbeth]] 05:56, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment: Unsure. Is the figure of 5000 members verifiable? If so it's a probable keep. Some of the comments above are annoying, but we shouldn't delete an article just because a chorus of sock puppets want to keep it. No vote yet. Andrewa 06:01, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ANSWER BY --NobleSavage 13:29, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC): "Yes, the 5,000 members are those who have signed the online mission statement and provided contact information and addresses on themselves. This mission statement and these signatures are available online on the universist website."

    • Edits by new users don't automatically imply so-called "sockpuppets". Aren't there IP checks for that? - mindbender
      • Delete. Not because of still more annoying and irrelevant comments (reminding me a bit of the Time Cube debate), but because I'm going to argue from the silence that there is no good evidence for the claimed membership numbers, therefore presumed unverifiable and non-notable. Andrewa 10:04, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • Comment: The belated attempt at verification above (again ignoring the formatting conventions of this page) has been well answered below. I was assuming good faith, but there is now ample evidence that this is not a safe assumption. No change of vote. Andrewa 20:17, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Naturally, my dear non-believer
  • [Comment: ] SimonP, Anaeus, Mikkalai - No sock puppets. Too bad you can't see IP's. I notified some Universists about this article, BM's recent edits and BM's desire to delete it (what a great username by the way for someone trying to pull off this s--t). I gave them the link to learn about the vote for deletion process, the wikipedia deletion policy, and the link to this page. Many are already users and participants in Wikipedia. This topic does not fit in one of the categories listed in the deletion policy. It is real and representative of a significant constituency. A factual article describing that worldview can easily be written and has been. In any vote for deletion there are people advocating for and against the topic and its worthiness to be in the encyclopedia, so the fact that people are advocating for the topic's worth is not surprising. The article objectively and factually describes the philosophy of Universism, that is its only point. It is wikipedia worthy because it is real, growing and having an impact in society. BM is arguing otherwise. That is his rational for deletion. He thinks it's just a med student and a web page. He is wrong. Deist
    • Too bad you don't know enough about Wikipedia yourself to realize that users who show up only to cast votes are taken about as seriously as those known to be sock-puppets. These supposed "already users and participants in Wikipedia" clearly don't know anything about the deletion policy, because they're making the same mistakes users who've been called in just to sway a vote always make, and as you can see, they're doing far more harm than good; people are voting against it because you tried to pull in such users. Not to mention that your personal attacks and theirs are doing no good to your cause at all. -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:26, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • Great. Delete it then because I don't know the inside scoop, not whether or not the article is worthwhile. This is going to be a fabulous encylopedia. Deist [sig rem-ed by author restored by Jerzy(t) 06:57, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)]
      • Here's news to you bub - this will happen more in future. Organizations and movements are easily connected via the internet and can communicate. Too bad Universism isn't fake. Too bad there aren't thousands of supporters. Then the article would survive deletion. Deist
        • Yes, yes, what a wonderful encyclopedia we would have if we let every article be written solely by its own adherents, who also got to make all decisions concerning it. That'd make a great resource of factual information that people could trust. -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:53, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)\
          • I don't care who writes the article so long as they are objective. BM clearly doesn't like Universism from the suspicious voice in his rewrite and then vote to delete the article he rewrote. Wikipedia should have an article on Universism that describes what it is and what its goals are if Wikipedia is trying to catalog what's going on in civilization. Deist
          • What was written on wikipedia is merely an description of the philosophy itself. I don't see how that makes it any less "factual" than any other philosophy. As far as the number of "adherents" is concerned, if we were going to lie about it, why only 5,000? That's not a particularly large number! However, I believe it is significant for a new and growing movement. - mindbender
      • Why shouldn't Universists be allowed equal votes on the topic of Universism? It's an absurd and elitist notion to think that what we have to say should carry less weight. The fact is someone is attempting to claim we are not a real movement or a new philosophy. We're here to prove that claim is unfounded. - mindbender
        • They aren't attempting to claim universalism doesn't exist, just that it isn't a large/famous/notable enough movement to deserve an article yet. You would need probably thousands of votes to prove your size like that. Things like the Birmingham Weekly are more useful, but really you may need to come back if/when you are better known. Kappa 07:12, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • If there's a place to vote on the topic of U'ism, go do it. This vote is on the topic of a WP U'ism article, and U'ist or not, votes from those whose grasp of what WP is is so tenuous are merely evidence of a dozen or so adherants, not of relevance to WP. --Jerzy(t) 07:33, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)
        • First, you're not being denied equal votes because you're Universists. You're being denied equal votes because your edit histories began today and, since that's the only objective indication we have of your experience with Wikipedia, for all we know you never even heard of Wikipedia before Deist (by his/her own admission) gave you a call and said "Hey, they're talking about whether to delete the article on Universism! You should come over there and just for showing up they'll give you a vote that counts as much as anyone's!" Which, as we've tried to explain, is untrue. You don't get an "equal vote" just for showing up because you haven't made an equal investment of time and energy into Wikipedia. You haven't shown that you understand why we started a discussion of the article and whether it should be deleted; you haven't shown that you understand what the goals of Wikipedia are or the practices that we have established to pursue those goals or why we adopted those practices. The question is not "why isn't Wikipedia giving free and equal votes to people who showed up just to vote," it's "why on Earth did anyone expect that they could simply walk in and say 'I've never shown any sign before that I gave a damn about Wikipedia but now you should let me determine its course'?" If a flood of strangers suddenly showed up in one of your decision-making councils and said "We've read your rules and now, having read them, we understand them better than you and we know that you're wrong and so we've all showed up to make sure a vote to affect Universism goes the way we want", would you give them each an "equal vote"? -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:43, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • Well said, Antaeus - rernst 19:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • I never claimed to know Wikipedia's rules better than you do. Tonight in fact was the first I'd read them. However, I've searched articles on wikipedia.org and wikibooks.org many times, and this will probably not be my last time here. Until tonight, I've never had a reason to sign up or make an edit. Admittedly it was Deist who informed me of the problem with the Universism article, but I would not have gotten involved if I didn't think the proposal for deletion was unfounded. You may think I am biased - and I undertand if you think that - but I believe saw a negative bias reflected in the person's post who put it up for deletion. The author claims we are little more than website! That is completely untrue. We a small movement (only 5,000), but we are growing bit by bit in communities world wide. I think we have the right to counter without being slammed down, don't we? - mindbender
    • "(what a great username by the way for someone trying to pull off this s--t)" // No personal attacks, per Wikipedia policy. -- Scott 07:53, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Del. University-centered and/or on-line movements are likely to fade quickly; the first should survive by more than a year the graduation of all those who were students at the time of founding, & the second should amass & sustain working capital (monetary and or physical), before escaping the presumption of being flashes in the pan. At Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ignosticism i voted Keep, in support of similar distinctions from superficially similar groups, bcz that term has been around for decades. --Jerzy(t) 07:33, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)
  • Delete. As I've mentioned on a couple VfD pages before, if someone's desperate enough to drag in a bunch of "new" users, I'm automatically inclined to be rather skeptic. Since this particular movement is based in a university, I don't have faith that it will be around, say, 10 years from now. [[User:Mo0|Mo0[talk]]] 08:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Seems like a decent, NPOV article. 5000 members (if true) is a surprising number. However, I'm concerned that this philosphy/religion is very young, and could be easily gone in a few months. The group hasn't really made any kind of impact, so in that sense in non-notable. If they're going somewhere, then they certainly deserve an article, but until then I'll have to say delete. -- Scott 08:03, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • keep The ignorant slamming of the group is unjustified and untrue. I graduated from University of Texas in 1960, so I am not a University of Birmingham student, and I now reside in the Bicol Region (southeast Luzon) of the Philippines. I have never lived in Alabama. Universism is unique in offering a religious home to all Rationalists and Freethinkers. I believe it has tremendous potential. That is why it is attracting members in Great Britain, Australia and the Philippines as well as across America.
    Mike Nassau
    (founder of the Apathetic Agnostic Church of Bicol)
    • This is Mikenassau's first and only edit. [[User:Mo0|Mo0[talk]]] 08:31, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. --Gary D 09:38, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC) (Not Gary D's first edit, LOL)
  • Comment: Of the 14 keep votes so far, 2 have been from users who made their first edits before this article was listed on VFD. That's counting Deist who appears to have created the article as User:66.25.118.71 (the anon has made several edits to Deist's user page). -- Scott 10:18, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. (But don't double count me, since I also wrote the VfD proposal). Also, please note that while this group has since gained some very slight notability through intense online promotion, the original article was first posted in the SAME MONTH that Ford Vox says (right on the web site) he "came up" with it. They are good at promoting themselves, and no doubt the Wikipedia publicity is the main thing driving traffic to the web site and accounts for a large part of the attention they have gotten so far. You could basically say this group is an artifact of Wikipedia and Google. Most of the delete votes seem to be sockpuppets. Note that Deist identified himself in the Universism::Talk page as an "officer" of the group. Either Ford Vox himself, or the webmaster, probably. By the way, Scott, thanks for the comment about it being a decent NPOV article. This is my rewrite of the article. The article was originally a verbatim extract from the FAQ on the web site. If the article is not deleted, there will no doubt be an edit war as a the sockpuppets who have emerged here try to return the text to the original puff piece. --BM 10:34, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC) (Addendum: In fact, I see that there is already an edit/revert war in progress. So, if the article isn't deleted, we can look forward to a series of disputes as the people behind this article try to preserve their free advertisement.)
    • Oh really? Universism is an artifact of wikipedia.org and google.com? Last I checked you have to search the name of a subject to get any results from this site. Very odd that so many people would search for "universism" on a whim without having the foggiest notion of what it could be refering to. Our numbers are not made up. The meetup.com clearly shows that we have over twice as many (1150) people signed up for meetups (person to person contact within a community) than humanists do. If I'm not mistaken 5,000 is an approximation of the number of people who have signed the mission statement. If you scroll down, you will see a sizeable chunk of signatories. Not all are listed as 1. the process is not automated and 2. not all people have agreed to go public. If you look at the addresses, however, you will notice that we are fairly spread out. I can understand you wanting to delete this article a year ago when Universism was a new concept but not today. - mindbender
    • How many meetups have actually occurred, and how many people actually attended? How many people have attended a *second* meetup? Not counting people who have simply signed the guest book (or whatever you call it) on the web site, how many Universists are actually involved in the UU organization? That is, work on the web-site, have contributed, attend meetings, etc? How many people are actually involved in the organization side of the group: such as running the web site, getting people to sign up for meetups, trying to get press, and flooding Wikipedia and other web sites with stuff about Universism? What else does the group do besides these things? How much money has been donated to the group? How much do you have in the bank?
  • Keep Universism. I am a user and appreciator of Wikipedia. This is my first entry and only vote. -(the)Second Sex (militant-, strong- and for many years also a card-carrying-Atheist)
  • I am an atheist/secular humanist/rationalist. I would say keep if Amazon came up with any decent books, but it doesn't, so delete. Try usenet or write a book. Dunc|☺ 12:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge into Secularism and redirect Just to let you know, I'm another person who got an email to come defend Universism. I don't really consider myself a Universist, but I do fit the definition. Honestly, I get tons of emails because I'm signed onto the message board, but I never actually visit the website. As far as I can tell, Universism is just an extension of secularism, and, while it may someday grow into its own, right now it's just not big enough to warrant its own article. To Deist (Ford Vox, I presume) and the Universists: It definitely seems like it was against the rule of vanity posting (especially since you posted it the same month you started the thing), and possibly against the recommendation of not including too much point of view. To BM, Antaeus, and the random people wanting the Delete: I know for a fact that this isn't a University-based philosophy (although it is clearly internet-based). I would also bet that wikipedia is not the main source at which people find out about Universism; Ford Vox is an insanely active promoter, and I continually run into Universism in a number of places (like every single atheist or secular-oriented website on the web), but never here. It's also naive to assume that people who are editing for the first time (like me) never use or appreciate wikipedia, and it's definitely distasteful for you to treat people like crap just because they've never posted before (it's not exactly welcoming to others, or flattering to you). However, you did have a legitimate reason to call this entry into question, and, if it's not deleted, it should, at the very least, be rewritten by someone not directly associated with the Universists (unless it really is objective--and that means objective enough to admit it started as a website), and, preferably, I think it should be merged with Secularism, at least until it becomes more widespread, and more well-known. And don't worry about me running away from wikipedia...now that you've actually gotten me to register, I'm going to add to the fairly shallow Lucy entry. I do understand, though, that your zeal is for the sake of the greater Wiki, and I forgive you.--ChrisCarera 12:21, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Chris, read the first sentence of the Secularism article to learn why Universism is not a form of Secularism. There are universists who believe in god and the supernatural. It is a unique perspective that does not fit in any category but its own.invisio
      • user's only edits are to this page - rernst 19:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Sock puppets/Astroturf movement notwithstanding, I would have voted the same, but I doubt I would have bothered looking into it if they hadn't shown up. --Calton 12:38, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Frankly this is nonsens. Whether elaborate or long or very much fleshed out doesn't change it's status. --Gtabary 13:10, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Unsure, I want to say keep since I am currently trying to actively participate in this "movement", but can't say it in clear conscience without more research. Jayon 13:35, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's an active organization that people may want to find out about through this fine publication! Jacksonic 14:01, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • User's first edit.
  • Delete. It could be notable at some point in the future, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that it qualifies now. --LeeHunter 14:22, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I guess I'm considered a sock puppet by several people just because I normally would not be posting here if I had not read about this through Universism. Anyway, here is my two cents for what it is worth. I would not be personally offended if you removed this from your wiki encyclopedia. However, I believe that this movement of philosophy is substantial enough that you will simply add it back later. How much later I do not know. But I do believe that it is here to stay. I have talked to several people who share the same views that Ford simply recognized and put a name too. He is an observant thinker and did not necessarily start this philosophy from scratch. I believe Universism is a natural result of the fruition of living in reason. Whether or not I will always associate myself with Ford's movement, I can not say. However, I will call myself a Universist as long as my philosophy is described that way. --Rachel Sherman (first edit of this user)
  • DELETE. 5000 Members ? Noble Savage stated that the full list of members of 5000 was published on-line. By my count that list contains 383 names... just 4617 short of their claim. A lie ? Maybe there is another list Ford and his clan can make up/provide More likely the number 5000 comes from their E-mail listing. In that case, I am a member simply because Ford Vox and his clan rove around on religious forums and bash their philosophies and beliefs. Then, they pump their forums with their own ads and forum links. Standard recruiting tactics of UV. I became a "member" out of defence from his group and a need to sign on to their forum page is simply a means to this goal. To answer or discuss on any of their forums, you must become a member. If you are interested in the list find it yourself. I refuse to promote the organization in any way. --Thejollyroger
    • Keep This is becoming a referrendum on whether wikipedians like the philosophy or not. That is irrelevant. The question is whether it deserves an article. 383 people have signed their Mission statement in public, willing to face scorn and ridicule for supporting a new religion. 5,000 is the number who have filled out the signup form at United Universists' site specifying that they are Universists. It has nothing to do with the web forum membership, which is 1,257. Not everyone who signs up wants their name public, that should be obvious.Invisio
  • Keep. We shouldn't be voting to delete merely because of the absurd amount of new-user voting (I'm inclined to believe that the new voters are members of the group, not sockpuppets). Google finds nearly 6000 links, the first 20 of which, at least, are dedicated to this organisation. I'd say that there's reasonable interest out there. — Asbestos | Talk 15:35, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Asbestos, I respect your sentiment. But if you actually follow those links, you will find that very, very, frequently, the text is the same as what was posted originally in the Wikipedia article, and which is a verbatim extract of the FAQ on the web site. Do not suppose that Wikipedia is the only site they have spammed. This group, which is possibly only a handful of actual hyper-energetic people, has been very, very busy at self-promotion. That is notable, perhaps -- in the context of an article about how wiki's, online forums, and Google are being used to promote new religious organizations and gain them a "presence" on the Internet out of all proportion to their actual numbers. The philosophy itself does not merit an article here, however. By the way, most of the first hundred or two of those Google hits are the "Universism" we are discussing, but the rest are other "Universisms", probably. For example, there is such a thing as Chinese "universism", which is something else. --BM 15:42, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment: An anonymous IP is trying to alter the record of this discussion by removing the original proposal for deletion and some of the early comments. --BM 15:31, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE. It's a cult started by Vox and joined by a bunch of gullible followers. It's nothing but a different label for postmodernism.
  • Delete - non-notable, and the amount of sock-puppets are a major contributor for my vote too. - rernst 16:04, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. From reading Wikipedia's deletion policy, the main category of deletion BM could be talking about is that of a vanity page. This article is clearly not. If Universism were one webpage and one guy in Alabama, how would one explain that I have long been a Universist from Michigan? Or how would one explain the many dedicated Universists I've communicated with about this topic for months from all over the country? I, and they, have personally signed the mission statement with 1,000 names and addresses. Our personal photos, real names and locations are known to each other on the Universism global meeting forum. Local chapters meet every month off-line. Whether or not you believe Universism is a good thing, it's riding a grassroots groundswell worthy of an article. 6 Dec 2004 -- MattArnold (first edit of this user)
    • How long have you been a Universist, Matt, and how many meetups have you been to personally? How many people in your local chapter in Michigan? --BM 16:43, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • My beliefs have been Universist for almost 5 years. I only learned about the label and started applying it to myself about two years ago. I know of 17 Universists in the Ann Arbor/Detroit area. -- MattArnold
      • That's interesting, since Ford Vox says he conceived and "wrote" Universism in August, 2003. If had these ideas for 5 years, what did you call yourself before that?
  • Delete. Let's get this over with. Chuck 16:50, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete - I would have been indifferent, satisfied with a page combining some edited version of the junk originally posted (under section heading "What Universists believe" or some such) with BM's discussion of the group's background, but given all the foolishness here, it should just go away. Cdc 17:21, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • But that's not what BM wants. He rewrote the article after all and did just that. Then he stood back from his beautiful piece and thought, let's just delete this topic altogether. What a wonder. People are voting against this article because a) they don't like universism or b) they don't like newbies on VfD. The facts are what matters. The facts are BM's case for deleting this article is erroneous. He thought it was a vanity article about Ford Vox (but the article did not mention Vox until BM added him, strange!). He thought it was just a web page. This discussion alone proves that is wrong. The Harvard Pluralism Project's recent recognition of Universism proves people should not be writing encyclopedia articles about something they don't even take the time to research.Invisio
      • Lets be clear about the Harvard Pluralism Project so-called "recognition" of Universism. This consists entirely of a short quote from the Universist web-site on a page of several such quotes from various web-sites. For all we know, the quote is there because the person who was doing the HPP web-site read about universism on the Wikipedia or one of the other web-sites spammed by the Universists and thought it was real. The phenomenon here, notable as part of a larger phenomenon, is how easy the Internet makes it these days for determined self-promoters. However, that underlines the responsibility that trusted sites like Wikipedia have in not letting themselves be used as outlets for self-promotion and press releases. And Invisio is right, the original article didn't mention Ford Vox. You have to go to the UU web site for the full Ford Vox vanity treatment. The vanity, Invisio my friend, is thinking that you only have to give your personal grab-bag of philosophies a catchy name and write them up on a web-site and that a few weeks later, it is notable enough for the Wikipedia. --BM 18:15, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • The Harvard Pluralism Project selected only nine "commonly used terms" to describe nonreligious people, the only two new ones were Bright and Universism. That is significant. As for your other point, so shortly after putting up the website, back in August 2003, Vox or a supporter started the initial Universism article on Wikipedia. Someone has chutzpah. I'm sorry you missed your chance to nip this audacious movement in the bud, but it is no longer chutzpah to keep the article. There are now thousands of Universists and Meetup.com alone lists 682 meetings so far. Vox, probably the guy with chutzpah, was on the cover of a magazine this summer. Looks like it's going places, regardless of the garage beginnings. -- i haven;t registered yet.
        • Well, your argument seems to be: he got away with it. When he submitted the article, it was an abuse of the Wikipedia. But now he has gotten away with it, and through abuse of the Wikipedia (and other sites) he's made his "philosophy" notable. Well, I might even buy this argument as galling and smug as it seems, but I wouldn't be so quick to concede that he *has* gotten away with it and that it is notable. It still seems pretty small time to me. You neglected to mention that the magazine he was on the cover of was the "Birmingham Weekly News" or some such. "Boy from prominent local family makes good" on p 1. Results of this year's Pumpkin Carving contest on p 2. etc. At any rate, the notable thing is not this ridiculous pastiche of a "philosophy" Vox has conceived, which the article was about (before I rewrote it) but the online phenomenon. Let's delete the Universism article and have one about all the impresarios out there using the Internet to promote themselves. Ford Vox will get my vote to be included in *that* article. --BM 18:43, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • I've read your article and your comments here, and you keep calling Universism ridiculous and at the same time claiming that is not your argument for deletion, that it doesn't belong because it's insignificant. You also wrote on the Universism discussion page that you are not against Universism. But here you are calling it ridiculous. Universism is ridiculous to some, horrible to many, the end of the world to a few, it's a lot of things to a lot of people but it is a particular worldview written up and given a name which thousands (so far) share. Your article doesn't even describe it, which is no surprise since you don't know what it is. Try reading the FAQ. If you want to discuss whether universism is right or wrong, I've heard there are philosophy forums set up all over the internet for such discussions. Keep FYI, the Birmingham Weekly is owned by Creative Loafing. It is a major alternative newsweekly. Amencrusade
          • I'm not opposed to it. It's a pastiche of lots of different ideas in the freethought/humanist/naturalist vein that have some appeal to me. No doubt others feel the same way, and that is why they are attracted to it. The ridiculous part is that Ford Vox thought his ideas were the least bit original and notable enough to warrant an article in Wikipedia. A few weeks after writing it he posts it here alongside humanism, atheism, deism, etc, and links it into the List of Religions as a new religion, up there with Christianity, Hinduism, etc. You know, Jesus, the Buddha, Mohammed, Ford Vox, like that. That is the ridiculous part.
            • Yeah, Vox is really full of himself. That's why he says all the time all he did was point out something millions of people already believe. Most Universists join the movement BECAUSE Universism describes the way of thought they already had, but didn't have a name or a community dedicated to it. Thanks to Vox and United Universists, it does now. Read the FAQ. Universism describes a way of thought that simply hadn't been given a name before. All Vox did was write it up and name it, (and promote the hell out of it). Read his speech on the site. Amencrusade
            • Sure, he can be quite honest and self-deprecating. He says, for example, that universism is just ideas "cobbled together" from an undergraduate course he took. I reckon that is right. The problem is that as a philosophy it shouldn't be on the Wikipedia unless it is a particularly original and apt "cobbling together" which has gained force from discussion, books, critical articles, and debates by scholars. As a social movement, it might warrant an article, even if the ideas are minor variations on the usual themes. There are plenty of religions and organizations like that, and many of them have articles devoted to them on Wikipedia. But generally, they've been around quite a bit longer and have a bit more tangible about them than a web-site and a meetups. --BM 19:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Every single fad philosophy promogulated on the internet does not deserve a listing on wikipedia. Furthermore, anytime the sockpuppets and first time posters come out in force like this it is usually a sign that they are attempting to mask the inherent unencyclopedic nature of an article by spamming the VFD entry. Indrian 19:09, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Like it or not, this group of people is growing and has already grown beyond the level of "fad." When complaining about the number of words used to describe humanists, freethinkers, etc, think about the number of denominations there are in Christianity alone. This is a legitimate religious movement that is attempting to spread the word about its beliefs and foundations.DemonKnight713
    • User's second edit, and the first was an unsigned contribution to this VfD page.
  • Keep. OK, since everyone wants background, here is my background. I heard about this vote from a friend, and I have used Wikipedia to get information. I was not a member until today. I voted “keep” because start up religious approaches like this are all small when they start, and because America is undergoing significant religious change now. Anyone with an interest in America, it’s politics, domestic and international policy, even it’s environmental laws must look at the influence of religion. A recent major poll found that one of religious categories that has grown the most in the past decade has been those people who put “none” when asked for their religion. Data for over 30 years has shown that moderate forms of Christianity are shrinking (such as Episcopal), while fundamentalist forms are growing rapidly (like Pentecostal). Many of those moderate Christians leave Christianity completely, and end up in groups like Universism. This listing is as relevant as Methodist or Presbyterian because they may represent an important social trend. My two cents. -Equinox2
    • Sure, nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with groups trying to get publicity. Happens all the time, and as you say, every institution has to start somewhere. But Wikipedia isn't about free publicity for groups that are trying to establish themselves. Its about giving people accurate, trustworthy, objective information about the things that are already notable and important. --BM 20:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BM- Please don't put words in my mouth. It isn't nice. I didn't say that this is about "getting publicity". I said that is part of a relevant social trend. I agree with you that accurate, trustworthy, objective information is important, and that's why a relevant social trend should stay up - people are going to hear all kinds of stories about Universism, and need to have wikipedia there to provide good information. Take care- Equinox2

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