Talk:Australian Government

• Talk:Government of Australia/archive 1
• Talk:Government of Australia/archive 2
• Talk:Government of Australia/archive 3
• Talk:Government of Australia/archive 4
• Talk:Government of Australia/archive 5
• Talk:Government of Australia/Archive 6 <--- Vote and arbitration request in here!
• Talk:Government of Australia/Archive 7
• Talk:Government of Australia/Archive 8

Here We Go Again

I have reverted an edit made by Pwqn (diff) which asserted the same ridiculousness that saw Skyring banned from editing this article. Pwqn has a long edit history so I don't think s/he is a sockpuppet, but the edit is awfully similar.-- Cyberjunkie ^TALK 9 July 2005 12:50 (UTC)

Pwqn has made this subsequent edit. I don't want to be involved in any controversy, and I will not revert this until others have commented. I am, however, very concerned - I don't want to see a return to the frustrations and viciousness that this issue has caused.-- Cyberjunkie ^TALK 9 July 2005 13:08 (UTC)

I have reverted. This is clearly the same sort of content change that is discussed through all the archives and determined to be unnacceptable. If Pwqn has any problems, he/she can refer to the archives of this talk. Xtra 9 July 2005 14:22 (UTC)

Can someone ascertain by comparing the ISP numbers, or whatever it is, that Pwqn is not an alias of Skyring's? Adam 9 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)

We could request David Gerard to do so. But I don't know if we need do that yet, particularly given we haven't initiated a direct conversation with him/her. Perhaps all we need do is impress upon Pwqn that his/her contention will not be accepted. Also, I don't think Pwqn is actually a sockpuppet. Pwqn's contributions log shows that s/he began editing three days after Skyring's first edit, and apparently not in the same areas. However, Pwqn might be one of those editor's Skyring said he would find to present the same facts [1], in which case, if they persist, a block may be appropriate.-- Cyberjunkie ^TALK 9 July 2005 16:14 (UTC)

I have advised Pwqn of the situation on his/her talk-page and requested that he/she comment here. -- Cyberjunkie ^TALK 9 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)

Head of state section needs a rewrite.

The section on "head of state" needs a rewrite to make it neutral. Right now, it reads as if Wikipedia is advocating the view that the Queen alone is Australia's head of state, however this is controversial, since many people recognise the Governor-General as a de-facto head of state within the Commonwealth - see [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], etc. This is against the WP:NPOV policy: Wikipedia is not a forum for advocacy of any political view, cause or person. Note that Wikipedia does not say that evolution is a fact, only that 95% of scientists agree with it (and 99.8% of biologists). Pwqn 9 July 2005 17:17 (UTC)

At most, we should note in one sentence that some monarchists claim that the GG is head of state. That's it. Pwqn, please read the extremely volumninous (and occasionally rather heated) talk page discussion on the topic. --Robert Merkel 09:23, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm Australian and I don't care who is head of state (QE2 or GG), but the High Court has not made a determination on the matter and people do hold differnt views, so the article should reflect this. The fact is, given these widey held differing views, no one can say with authority who the "Head of State" of Australia is. That's my oppinion anyway. (I don't have a Wikipedia account. Maybe I should get one :) I should point out that I think QE2 is the head of state, but I can't say with absolute certainty that she is. No one can unless they are a soothsayer. 82.41.215.73 00:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The current situation

I will assume for the moment that Pwqn is a good-faith editor and not a Skyring clone, but I remain suspicious. For Pwqn's benefit, the situation with this question is this:

• Matters of fact
• The Constitution, for historical reasons, does not nominate a head of state - Australia was part of the British Empire in 1901 and shared a common head of state with the rest of the Empire. The Constitution contains numerous references to "the Queen" which in 1901 were obviously references to the Queen of the UK.
• Since the Statute of Westminster, Australia has been a sovereign state, and must have a head of state. The High Court, the government and all other authorities now hold that the Queen of Australia is Australia's de jure head of state, and the references to the Queen in the Constitution should be read as references to the Queen of Australia, a title which was fornmally accorded to Elizabeth II in 1973.
• Under the Constitution, the Queen's powers are almost entirely delegated to the Governor-General, and it is not disputed that the Governor-General acts as a de facto head of state.
• Nevertheless, a de facto head of state is not a de jure head of state. The Governor-General is formally appointed by the Queen and takes an oath of alliegence to the Queen, as do government ministers, judges and other officials. The Governor-General himself has said that the Queen is Australia's head of state.
• Matters of process
• This question has been exhaustively argued for many weeks. The view of every editor who has taken part in this debate, except Skyring, is that the Queen is head of state, and that the article should state this as a matter of fact and not just of opinion. It should of course be noted that a small minority of people dissent from this view.
• Skyring has been banned from editing this article as a result of his persistent refusal to accept the majority view of what this article should say.
• This question having been exhaustively argued and decided by a near-unanimous opinion of those participating, there is absolutely no way this question can be re-opened and re-debated because a new editor has come along and wants to reopen the whole process. I suggest that Pwqn read the discussion pages if he or she is really interested in this subject. Alernatively, Pwqn should go and find one of the many Australian articles which need work, and do something useful for Wikipedia by editing some of them. In any case, Pwqn should note Skyring's fate. Adam 09:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Showcasing Adam Carr's Doublethink

From Talk:Citizens Electoral Council:

[] In Australia the Queen has no influence whatever, and plays no constitutional or political role whatever. It is true that in theory the Governor-General represents "the Crown" (which is a legal entity separate from the Queen's person), but in practice he is an independent ceremonial head of state. Kerr's dismissal of Whitlam was a drama played out entirely in the context of Australian domestic politics, and the Queen knew nothing about it until after the event. Even if she had, she could and would have done nothing about it. She has no independent power to dismiss the Governor-General or tell him what to do or not do. []

— User:Adam Carr, 13 October 2004 (emphasis added)

The question of what powers the Queen wields, how much influence she has over Australian domestic politics, and whether or not she can dismiss a Prime Minister are *entirely* irrelevant to her position as Australia's official head of state. This remains the case, no matter how many Skyring clones wish to obfusticate this point. (emphasis added). Slac speak up! 22:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

You can usually tell Skyring's clones by their ignorance of constitutional law and legal principles, and determination to prove their point by quoting information that at best is irrelevant (as here), or at worst quote information that says the exact opposite of what they think it says . Either someone is breeding them, creating them, or they are him under false names. In any case, as per Wikipedia decision both the clones have been blocked, and all other of his 'personalities' that appear will suffer the same fate. And everytime he creates another, the date of his suspension moves. He really must think we are a shower of fools not to spot his little games. FearÉIREANNFile:Tricolour.gifFile:Animated-union-jack-01.gif SOLIDARITY WITH THE PEOPLE OF LONDON\^(caint) 23:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

It may be worth doing a sockpuppet check on User:Kangaroopedia to check whether Skyring has violated his ban. I still think Pwqn is a bona fide editor, though, perhaps one coerced by Skyring (as he threatened to do). Further to that point, Skyring has made note of the events unfolding here (though, thankfully, he cannot partake).-- Cyberjunkie ^TALK 11:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Does Skyring's ban on editing this article include a ban on participating in its Talk page? Adam 11:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

He's banned from editing all pages for 2 months, following that he is banned from editing in this area for a year, I assume that the ruling includes talk pages.--nixie 11:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I would assume so also. It would defy logic if he were permitted to, given the talk-page is where he was most frustrating. -- Cyberjunkie ^TALK 11:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm a little puzzled as to how the above quote from something I wrote last October can be said to show "doublethink." It is completely consistent with what I wrote yesterday. Of course the Governor-General is "in practice an independent ceremonial head of state." As I wrote yesterday, "it is not disputed that the Governor-General acts as a de facto head of state." The article should and does say that. But as I also wrote, the Governor-General is not a de jure head of state, which is what this discussion is about. (SOLIDARITY WITH THE PEOPLE OF LONDON indeed). Adam 00:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

vote

Reference: Talk:Government_of_Australia/Archive_6#Vote_on_contents_of_Government_of_Australia

• Agree with 1, 2 and 3. And also with a), b) and c) but I think that it would be alright to state that is an incorrect view that the Governor General is the head of state in the article. this is not saying that the GG is head of state, it is saying that sometimes the GG is incorrectly attributed as being the head of state. The first google result I found when typing "Australian Head of state" was this page [17] "Who is Australia's head of state".Astrokey44 07:15, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I though this was going to be resolved by arbitration rather than popular vote. I think I have lost track of the results of arbitration since it was tied up with banning user Skyring as well.--AYArktos 09:37, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

It has been resolved. This issue is outdated, although Astrokey is welcome to express his opinion. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 12:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it's just been opened up again. I quote from Jimbo Wales on WP:NPOV

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not (see Wikipedia:Flat earth problem).

The Prime Minister, senior ministers, Simon Crean as Opposition Leader, major daily newspapers, a whole bunch of other folk have all made public statements saying that the Governor-General is the head of state. That's a fact, easily demonstrated. This view deserves inclusion and it is stupid to vote on it here; no amount of discussion or voting on this page can possibly alter the views already expressed by prominent adherents. In Jimbo's own words, it is "a viewpoint held by a significant minority".

I think it's quite clear:

• Majority opinion = Queen is head of state
• Minority opinion = Governor-General is head of state

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.238.244.56 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

As a matter of law, the Queen is Head of State and the Governor General is merely her representative. Just because someone doesn't agree with a legal definition (if they indeed do not) does not make their opinion worth mentioning here. The Governor General is at most a de facto Head of State, but that itself would be a bit of a stretch. Xtra 23:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

That's your opinion. The Prime Minister has a different one. Clearly there is a diversity of opinion, and "prominent adherents" (as Jimbo puts it) are easily found to support views opposed to your own. If you don't want the article to reflect NPOV principles, may I ask why?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.131.118.235 (talk • contribs) 11:24, 20 September 2005.

I will simply reitterate that as a matter of law the Queen is Australia's Head of State. Xtra 02:59, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Let me put this simpy: The Governor General's position is legally equivalent to an organisation's Vice-President becoming "Acting President" when the President is out of jurisdiction. The President is still the head of the company, but the Vice-President is acting on his or her behalf. Xtra 03:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion. It's just that the Prime Minister has a different one, and if we are trying to stick to Wikipedia's core principles, one of which is NPOV, then we should mention his views. After all, he's the head of government, a position of some importance in the nation.

Xtra, there's no need to bother, it's just Skyring looking for a meal. Of course, if Astrokey has any questions, I'm sure we'd be happy to answer them.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 04:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this anon Skyring? If so he is just restarting the clock on his ban, which is all to the good. Adam 07:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Head of State (again)

I am definitely in the camp that considers the Queen to be the HOS. But the fact that there is an interminable debate about this subject means that there is not general agreement about it. Even the Queen's and the G-G's pronouncements (saying that the Queen is the HOS) have not satisfied those who believe the G-G is the HOS. Whether anybody likes it or not, it is still obviously a matter of opinion. The fact that the Constitution is silent means there is no official and final arbiter. The current text says:

• While the Queen is Australia's head of state, a sometimes held but completely incorrect view in the community is that the Governor General is the Australian Head of State, and the view of who is the head of state has been debated regardless of the fact that the head of state is clearly the Queen.

Regardless of anyone's personal views on the issue, I don't think this paragraph is at all balanced. It does us all a disservice because it breaks our own NPOV principle. This is saying the Queen is the HOS, and anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong. It favours one side of the argument, and damns anybody who dares to have a different view. Merely making reference to the existence of a debate is not good enough. It ignores the obvious question: if the answer is so clear, why is there a debate about it? Merely asserting that a particular point of view is the correct one does not resolve the debate - it perpetuates it. While the debate remains unresolved, I rather think the paragraph is very POV. If we want to remain NPOV, wouldn't it be better to present both sides of the argument, and not be judgmental and arrogant about the outcome? We should provide references from official sources and from prominent advocates on both sides, then leave it to readers to form their own conclusions. JackofOz 06:28, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

what would you say about a paragraph like this:

• While Bill Gate is Microsoft's Chairman, a sometimes held but completely incorrect view in the community is that Steve Ballmer is the Chairman, and the view of who is the Chairman has been debated regardless of the fact that the Chairman is clearly Bill Gates.

Xtra 07:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

That is just an illustration. But, the debate is not unresolved. Anyone who knows anything about constitutional law would be able to see that the Queen is Head of State and the Governor General is her representative, but not Head of State in his own right. Xtra 07:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Xtra. You've just perfectly illustrated my point. You're right, and everybody who disagrees with you is wrong. Is that how it goes? My post did not seek in any way to discuss the merits of either side of the argument. I stated my personal opinion up front, but that was all. You and I even seem to share that opinion, but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about. It was all about acknowledging there is an inherently unresolvable debate about this subject, and that is what should be the basis for our article. It can only ever be resolved finally by the Constitution being amended, or possibly an Act of Parliament putting the matter beyond question.

But wait, there's more. Now, you're even denying that there even is a debate. The fact that there is a debate is clearly spelled out in the article, so if there's no debate, the article is inaccurate and misleading. You can't have it both ways. There is a debate, and a very heated and long-running one. Ipso facto, to present only one side is unbalanced and POV. That's what POV means.

The Bill Gates example does not work for me. Nobody I've ever heard of disputes the fact that Gates is the Chairman of Microsoft. There is no debate about Gates' position. JackofOz 07:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

My point is you cannot dispute a fact. Xtra 07:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

My point is: not everybody agrees that it is a fact. Something doesn't become a fact just because you say it is. Some very learned people have disputed that the Queen is the Head of State, and will continue to do so. Eg. Sir David Smith, Official Secretary to about 7 Governors-General, will probably go to his grave insisting that the G-G and not the Queen is the HOS. While I happen to disagree with him, his views surely carry a certain amount of weight and require some respect. The only issue I have raised is the existence of this disputation with a view to achieving a balanced and neutral (remember what NPOV stands for?) reporting of it. But you insist on focussing on a different issue. You might wish to meditate upon the futility of denial. I think the next phase is anger. I might beat you to it, though. JackofOz 11:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Say the earth is flat all you like, that does not make it true. Until the Australian Constitution is amended, the Queen is the Head of State. Xtra 11:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Does the expression "broken record" mean anything to you? You are obdurately refusing to respond in a useful manner. If it were as simple as being stated in the constitution, there would be no debate. But the words "head of state" do not appear in the constitution, as I'm sure you know very well. Therefore, who is the head of state is open to interpretation. Some say it's the Queen, some say it's the G-G. The article now makes clear that there is a difference of opinion, and doesn't condemn one side of the argument in a high-handed fashion as it did before. Good night. JackofOz 12:12, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You've got a point. I think I was the one who wrote that sentence, but before that it didnt even include the view at all that the GG was head of state, and I was trying to keep it in line with the voting on Archive 6 which had said that "That any edit which states that ...(b) the Governor-General is Australia's head of state... will be reverted, and that such reversions should not be subject to the three-reversions rule." So to try and include the view that he is the head of state, when I cant say that he is the head of state, is quite difficult. Astrokey44 08:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the wording quoted by Jack (which I don't recall seeing before and wasn't there the last time I visited this article) is crude and undiplomatic. I have deleted it "with a view to substituting other words" (as they say in Parliament). Adam 08:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Adam. This version is far, far better than what was there before. JackofOz 11:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Section order

I'd like to move "Opposition" below "Executive". Any objections? It seems quite odd to skim down the page and find photos in the order 1) Queen, 2) Governor-general 3) Parliament house 4) Leader of the Opposition 5) Prime Minister. --Scott Davis ^Talk 09:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Scott Davis ^Talk 11:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Picture of the Queen

Do we have an official Australian picture of the Queen, the one we have is the official Canadian one and has her with the Canadian insignia as Soverign of the Order of Canada and the Order of Military Merit, its not a biggie but something we might want to fix -- Tawker 23:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

There was one floating around somewhere, but it was pretty old. She still had brown hair. Xtra 00:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I found this which I think is the one you're talking about. There is this which is used on a banknote and this on the Royal Family Website but I can't find an picture other than the Canadian one. If anyone has one, please, let me know, it is nagging at me! -- Tawker 08:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The only official portrait of the Queen of Australia that I'm aware of is one painted by William Dargie in 1954 that was commonly called the 'Wattle Painting' because its spledid use of the Golden Wattle. A quick web search brings up this decent web page showing and explaining the portrait. As Dargie died in 2003, I don't think the work is in the public domain. However, if the Commonwealth owned the copyright, then we could use it under provision E of {{PD-Australia}}.--cj | talk 16:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Opposition leader picture

Why was there a picture of the Leader of the Opposition in the article, and why there?

• The leader of the opposition is not part of the Government of Australia, so belongs in an article on parliament, not government.
• It was absurd to have a picture of the leader of the opposition before that of the head of state, the governor-general and the prime minister? That is visual POV-pushing. I've removed the picture. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 21:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

"virtually all"

Seeing as how the Governor-General has been receiving diplomatic credentials in his own right (rather than on behalf of, or with permission of the Queen) for several months, there remain no "head of state" functions that he does not carry out in his own right. If anyone can find one to justify replacing that "virtually" tag, then please discuss it here first. --Pete 02:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)